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UN workers killed in Afghanistan

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Comments

  • #182
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    TheRevolution wrote: »
    In parts of Africa people have been killed for simply speaking out against the bible.

    Despite what you want to believe this problem isn't confined to Muslims, its just we tend to hear about Muslims acts of savagery more. People should really read about whats being done in the name of christianity in Africa.

    yes but unlike Muslims, the different sects of Christianity are all actually different!

    how dare you. :pac:


  • #183
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    What that pastor did by burning a copy of the Qur'an is equivalent to throwing Christians to the lions in order to prove that lions kill Christians.

    Well, the pastor proved his point; lions will kill Christians.

    It was an unnecessary and costly experiment and that pastor should not be able to sleep at night. In fact, he should be arrested and tried for reckless endangerment.


  • #184
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The difference between Afghanistan and other states is stability. Years of instability have allowed extremists the chance to do things like these. When the prophet that they seek to replicate himself killed the man who offended him it is natural that all Muslims too would seek to punish all those who desecrate a Qur'an..

    I see we're in no true scotsman territory.

    Why was there no reaction in the Gaza strip, Somalia and Iraq?

    O, and why - if "At the end of the day, it is actions that matter most." as you said - does the restraint over this koran burning on the part of the vast majority of muslims not rate? Does that not apply to muslims?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Rhetoric aside, would burning a Vedas have caused the same reaction by Hindu Extremist? Or perhaps would a caricature of a Hindu god back in 2005 have caused bombings and death threats across the globe?
    ..

    Where there was Hindus, I'd imagine yes it would.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How can a literal account of someone's life be interpreted in more than one way? It's not up for interpretation. It's the life and actions of Muhammad.
    ..

    ...but there are multiple muslim sects. There are multiple christian sects. There is one bible and one koran. You denying the obvious isn't going to change that.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Have a go at interpreting that. Literal language only has one meaning.

    ....yet people interpret these things differently. Trying to argue otherwise in microcosm will not change the real world. There's Sunnis, Shias, Sufis, Ahamdiyya, Alawis, Alevis......
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Less of the strawmanning and less of the crap, if you will.

    You are claiming to have the definitive reading of a holy book. For this to be true, you're either you're God, or his divinely appointed interpreter.


  • #185
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    TheRevolution wrote: »
    In parts of Africa people have been killed for simply speaking out against the bible.

    Despite what you want to believe this problem isn't confined to Muslims, its just we tend to hear about Muslims acts of savagery more. People should really read about whats being done in the name of christianity in Africa.
    There is a rather large difference between the two. Underdeveloped areas in Africa are still at the same stage of social development as the Middle Ages were in Europe. People over there are killed over issues of petty robbery so it's not too farfetched that they will kill others in the name of their Religious beliefs. The fact remains however that unlike Muhammad, Jesus did not kill those who offended or opposed him. Again, I do not see the relevance of Christianity in this thread. In threads about Christianity, if someone started talking about Islam they'd be told off for going off topic yet somehow when someone dares speak out against Islam people think an appropriate defense is bringing Christianity in to the equation.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I see we're in no true scotsman territory.
    Yup. If you are a Muslim you seek to live life as per the Qur'an and should attempt to live as Muhammad did as he is the quintessential example of a Muslim. If a Muslim disagrees with what Muhammad did then they are simply not Muslims. They cannot disagree with Allah's greatest messenger.
    Why was there no reaction in the Gaza strip, Somalia and Iraq?
    There was a reaction. Just because they have not found an opportunity to carry out killings does not mean that they will shy away an opportunity.

    http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/somalias-shabaab-stage-demo-over-quran-burning - Somalia
    Quote: "We will kill Americans over this, we will make them regret it," said Shueyb Hasan, another 18-year-old demonstrator.

    O, and why - if "At the end of the day, it is actions that matter most." as you said - does the restraint over this koran burning on the part of the vast majority of muslims not rate? Does that not apply to muslims?
    I still stand by what I said. They are active followers of Islam, therefore all that is in the Qur'an applies to them whether or not they actually follow it through. They believe the Qur'an is a gift from God, therefore all that is within it applies to Muslims.
    Where there was Hindus, I'd imagine yes it would.
    Perhaps... Let's leave Hinduism aside however.

    ...but there aremultiple muslim sects. There are multiple christian sects. There isone bible and one koran. You denying the obvious isn't going to change that.
    Thank you for stating what we already knew.

    I've bolded the important section of your post. There is only ONE Qur'an. Within this one Qur'an there is a verse. Within this verse is a series of words written in a literal narrative style. Words that are written in such a style are rather fixed in their meaning.
    ....yet people interpret these things differently. Trying to argue otherwise in microcosm will not change the real world. There's Sunnis, Shias, Sufis, Ahamdiyya, Alawis, Alevis......
    I don't care how many sects there are or what they're named. They all believe in the Qur'an as being a gift from Allah. Within the Qur'an is a verse that is written in a literal narrative style. A style that is neither figurative nor in any way up for interpretation unlike other sections of the Qur'an. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for you to get the point. Literal language does NOT deviate from its single intended meaning. Read the passage again and you will see that is there no hint of metaphor or hint of figurative language. It is a narrative detailing a single event of Muhammad's life. That is all it is.
    You are claiming to have the definitive reading of a holy book. For this to be true, you're either you're God, or his divinely appointed interpreter.
    No i'm claiming to have a sound comprehension of English. That is all. I recommend you read up on the differences between literal and figurative styles of language.


  • #186
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I seriously doubt you will ever find a direct order from Jesus to any of his apostles to go kill a man in his sleep because he wrote a poem that offended him.
    I'm amused by your narrow circumstances that you've been coming up with throughout this thread.

    I'd guess from the way you've phrased the above that you know well that the Bible is full of murder, hate and revenge. So what if the vast majority is in the Old Testament?

    And don't come out with the whole "the OT is just a metaphor" argument. The Old Testament is the foundation of Judaism, and the origins of Christianity (and Islam too). Jesus referenced it many times.

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The fact remains however that unlike Muhammad, Jesus did not kill those who offended or opposed him.

    God did though.


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  • #187
    dizzywizlw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 584 ✭✭✭dizzywizlw


    Mark200 wrote: »
    God did though.

    Allegedly :)


  • #188
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Yup. If you are a Muslim you seek to live life as per the Qur'an and should attempt to live as Muhammad did as he is the quintessential example of a Muslim. If a Muslim disagrees with what Muhammad did then they are simply not Muslims. They cannot disagree with Allah's greatest messenger.
    .

    And of course you, being the divine interpreter/God can tell them when they are and are not in agreement with "allah's greatest messenger". Nicely circular, that.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    There was a reaction. Just because they have not found an opportunity to carry out killings does not mean that they will shy away an opportunity.

    http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/somalias-shabaab-stage-demo-over-quran-burning - Somalia
    Quote: "We will kill Americans over this, we will make them regret it," said Shueyb Hasan, another 18-year-old demonstrator.

    .

    So words speak louder than actions except when actions speak louder than words....Does that apply to all of us or do you just do that kind of doublethink where muslims are concerned?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I still stand by what I said. They are active followers of Islam, therefore all that is in the Qur'an applies to them whether or not they actually follow it through. They believe the Qur'an is a gift from God, therefore all that is within it applies to Muslims..

    I'm sure thats what they think, but as theres a number of different readings of the Koran etc, its hardly an exact guide to muslim behaviour.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Perhaps... Let's leave Hinduism aside however...

    As I've proved my point, we might as well.

    partyatmygaff wrote: »

    Thank you for stating what we already knew.

    I've bolded the important section of your post. There is only ONE Qur'an. Within this one Qur'an there is a verse. Within this verse is a series of words written in a literal narrative style. Words that are written in such a style are rather fixed in their meaning....

    Groovy.

    The problem though, is that the muslims evidently have still divided into any number of sects, and are not behaving as you seem to think they should. That would suggest theres something wrong with your hypothesis.

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I don't care how many sects there are or what they're named. ....

    'No Reality, I won't play your dirty games. My world is the real one. Now, I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and scream until you go away'.

    Which is the correct school/sect within Islam, btw?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »

    No i'm claiming to have a sound comprehension of English....


    As its the koran you are claiming authority on, Arabic would be your man there really...


  • #189
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Mark200 wrote: »
    God did though.

    No, both God and Mohammed got simple-minded humans to do their dirty work.


  • #190
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    No, both God and Mohammed got simple-minded humans to do their dirty work.

    No, God did some zapping himself in the OT, apparently - sodom and gommorrah. O, and the Flood, which apparently killed the vast majority of humanity.


  • #191
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, God did some zapping himself in the OT, apparently - sodom and gommorrah. O, and the Flood, which apparently killed the vast majority of humanity.


    Here yous go:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABptlAhyJw



    (Part 1 of 2)


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  • #192
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    And of course you, being the divine interpreter/God can tell them when they are and are not in agreement with "allah's greatest messenger". Nicely circular, that.
    It does not take a divine interpreter to read and comprehend literal language. If you need a divine interpreter to make sense of literal language then that is your issue.
    As I've proved my point, we might as well.
    You haven't proved any point. I'm just sick and tired of talking about something that has little to do with the thread.
    Groovy.

    The problem though, is that the muslims evidently have still divided into any number of sects, and are not behaving as you seem to think they should. That would suggest theres something wrong with your hypothesis.
    Let me be very very plain. There may be a million sects and of those sects only a certain percentage behave as they should. The one thing that joins them all is that they are Muslim. All Muslims believe that the Qur'an and what it contains is the guide for life and a gift from God. I do not care what sect someone is from or what they do or do not do in their lives. If you are a Muslim, you believe in the words of the Qur'an and see Muhammad as being someone you should attempt to replicate. I have shown you a biographical passage written in a fixed literal style detailing one relevant event of Muhammad's life. That is all that matters. They choose to be Muslims and this is what they identify themselves with. Therefore that is what I will base my opinion of them on.


    'No Reality, I won't play your dirty games. My world is the real one. Now, I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and scream until you go away'.
    You're starting to sound an awful lot like Richie. You pad out your posts with little petty snide remarks and offer very little in the way of a proper discussion.
    Which is the correct school/sect within Islam, btw?
    Ask a Muslim.
    As its the koran you are claiming authority on, Arabic would be your man there really...
    Luckily for me, i'm fluent in Arabic. Can you say the same?


  • #193
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Here yous go:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABptlAhyJw



    (Part 1 of 2)

    There is something not quite right about an atheist attributing events to God.


  • #194
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »
    That doesn't change the fact that it was made clear to him that there would be a backlash.

    So that pastor, having been made aware of this, made a judgement on whether it was worth risking the safety of others - but to the benefit of who or what?

    Personally, I don't care what attachment one may have towards a book but a book burning is not a good enough reason to kill.

    The pastor is certainly being a provocateur, but there is a difference between being a provocateur and a terrorist / mass murderer.


  • #195
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    It does not take a divine interpreter to read and comprehend literal language. If you need a divine interpreter to make sense of literal language then that is your issue.

    Dear o dear.......
    The Quran itself states that its verses have multiple meanings, some of which are unfathomable to human beings and known only to God.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2204849/?from=rss
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You haven't proved any point. I'm just sick and tired of talking about something that has little to do with the thread.

    Twas you that brought them up.....
    There are Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and people of many other Religions living in dire poverty across Africa and Asia. They are the epitome of underdeveloped yet I have never heard of either Hindu, Buddhist or Christian extremists murdering innocent people for something that someone else did.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71481997&postcount=72

    ...bit of bad form to dismiss them now because your statement was proven to be wrong.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Let me be very very plain. There may be a million sects and of those sects only a certain percentage behave as they should.

    Ok.....you can tell me what the right sects are later, I suppose...
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The one thing that joins them all is that they are Muslim. All Muslims believe that the Qur'an and what it contains is the guide for life and a gift from God. I do not care what sect someone is from or what they do or do not do in their lives. If you are a Muslim, you believe in the words of the Qur'an and see Muhammad as being someone you should attempt to replicate. I have shown you a biographical passage written in a fixed literal style detailing one relevant event of Muhammad's life. That is all that matters. They choose to be Muslims and this is what they identify themselves with. Therefore that is what I will base my opinion of them on.

    ....but they don't all believe the same thing or read the koran the same way, so how can you make a mass judgement?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Ask a Muslim.

    Why? You're the one who claims knowledge of the correct intepretation of the koran.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Luckily for me, i'm fluent in Arabic. Can you say the same?

    Course not. Thats one of the many reasons I'm not pretending to have discovered the definitive translation of a religous text in medieval styled Arabic.


  • #196
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The pastor is certainly being a provocateur, but there is a difference between being a provocateur and a terrorist / mass murderer.

    True but if it is the case that a, the pastor knew lives could be lost on account of his actions and b, if the pastor had not done what he did then people who are now dead would still be alive then the pastor is vacariously responsible for murder.


  • #197
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    There is something not quite right about an atheist attributing events to God.

    "According to the Bible"


  • #198
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mark200 wrote: »
    "According to the Bible"

    I don't doubt that God did take life in the Bible, and indeed I don't consider it as "shocking" as you claim it is given that life is originally from Him, and He has the right to take it away.

    himnextdoor: There have been hundreds of Qur'ans burnt by people. The example I gave from youtube is one of hundreds. I don't see it as the pastors responsibility in that people blew themselves up because they were annoyed with what he did. People should know that that isn't a civilised response to offence. Qur'an burning is just pointless. There will be millions more bought this year. There will be millions of Bibles bought. Burning a Qur'an you bought doesn't decrease the net number of Qur'ans, its just dumb.


  • #199
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Mark200 wrote: »
    "According to the Bible"

    Yes, I get that. :)

    I just don't think it fair to compare the acts of a fictitious supernatural being with the action of a human man.


  • #200
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't doubt that God did take life in the Bible, and indeed I don't consider it as "shocking" as you claim it is given that life is originally from Him, and He has the right to take it away.

    /facepalm..


    Do we really need these people? really?


  • #201
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    RichieC wrote: »
    /facepalm..

    T'is logical from a Christian perspective. My days are numbered, I will definitely die at a certain point in my life. I am only here for a certain time, that time and that opportunity have been wholly given to me by God.

    To be this seems more reasonable than suggesting that the universe created itself before it existed.


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  • #202
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Jakkass wrote: »
    T'is logical from a Christian perspective. My days are numbered, I will definitely die at a certain point in my life. I am only here for a certain time, that time and that opportunity have been wholly given to me by God.

    To be this seems more reasonable than suggesting that the universe created itself before it existed.

    It absolutely doesn't... though you're indeed welcome to your fantasy land.


  • #203
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    Dear o dear.......


    http://www.slate.com/id/2204849/?from=rss
    I am sick of your condescension. Why can't you talk with people without resorting to.

    In any case, the fact remains that the particular verse I quoted is a literal narrative of his life. It is not so much a message from God as much as it is an account of the life of a supposed messenger of God.

    Twas you that brought them up.....


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71481997&postcount=72

    ...bit of bad form to dismiss them now because your statement was proven to be wrong.
    You have not proven me wrong. Hindu Extremists operate only within India in response to Indian incidents. Muslim Extremists do not.
    Ok.....you can tell me what the right sects are later, I suppose...
    Can you quit this rubbish? I'm getting fed up of having to read posts padded with random irrelevant sniping remarks.
    ....but they don't all believe the same thing or read the koran the same way, so how can you make a mass judgement?
    I will not repeat myself. I recommend you read the following

    http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=literal
    http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=narrative
    http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=biography

    Why? You're the one who claims knowledge of the correct intepretation of the koran.
    Have I? I have not. You have made so many strawmans in the past few posts so much so that I am starting to think you're just trolling.

    I am speaking of one passage. One passage only. Not the whole book. Read the passage.Read its style of writing. There are no two ways to interpret text written in a literal narrative style.

    If you continue to post the same rubbish of "Oh, there are fifty thousand different interpretations of a simple passage designed to tell of Muhammad's life" I will not be continuing this conversation. Ask a Muslim even. The account of Muhammad's life is not up for interpretation. What he did is what he did and that is all there is to it.


  • #204
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    Jakkass wrote: »
    himnextdoor: There have been hundreds of Qur'ans burnt by people. The example I gave from youtube is one of hundreds. I don't see it as the pastors responsibility in that people blew themselves up because they were annoyed with what he did. People should know that that isn't a civilised response to offence. Qur'an burning is just pointless. There will be millions more bought this year. There will be millions of Bibles bought. Burning a Qur'an you bought doesn't decrease the net number of Qur'ans, its just dumb.

    Book-burning is widely regarded as an act of barbarism, whoever it is that is doing the burning.

    Burning books is dumb for sure but what the pastor did was criminal. He effectively committed an act of war against Muslims in a deliberately public and provocative way.

    I cannot imagine that the pastor's God will be pleased with him. Unless of course, He is.


  • #205
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Book-burning is widely regarded as an act of barbarism, whoever it is that is doing the burning.

    Burning books is dumb for sure but what the pastor did was criminal. He effectively committed an act of war against Muslims in a deliberately public and provocative way.

    I cannot imagine that the pastor's God will be pleased with him. Unless of course, He is.
    /facepalm

    We've turned to condemn a man who burnt a book instead of the people who beheaded innocents trying to help them.


  • #206
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    RichieC wrote: »
    It absolutely doesn't... though you're indeed welcome to your fantasy land.

    People believe what is more reasonable, and as I see it this is believing that an intelligent Creator brought everything into existence.

    himnextdoor: I explained what my solution would be. Prohibit disposing of things with fire in residential areas / community areas.


  • #207
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Jakkass wrote: »
    People believe what is more reasonable, and as I see it this is believing that an intelligent Creator brought everything into existence.

    Except himself, who conveniently doesn't need a creator despite the idea of the Universe being without a creator as unreasonable.

    Edit - Also, you're a theist. Not a deist. Big difference. You can't justify theism (ie the idea that there is someone/something watching us, reading our minds, answering our prayers, preparing to send us to hell) just by pointing to the big bang.


  • #208
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Except himself, who conveniently doesn't need a creator despite the idea of the Universe being without a creator as unreasonable.

    Indeed, and I've explained why many many times on Boards.ie. Here's one of them.

    If we want to argue about God's existence, lets do it properly. Indeed, it is always better to read the Bible for yourself and come up with your own arguments rather than googling and finding something that people have already heard a billion times already.


  • #209
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, and I've explained why many many times on Boards.ie. Here's one of them.

    If we want to argue about God's existence, lets do it properly. Indeed, it is always better to read the Bible for yourself and come up with your own arguments rather than googling and finding something that people have already heard a billion times already.

    I just consider the premise of a god far too ridiculous to go into a great debate about it... just as I've said before, I wouldn't have a serious conversation about the existence of the Smurfs or Santy.

    It's that simple... If god created the universe then someone would have had to of made him, plus, the bible would have had accurate cosmological data in it, like the sun being the center of the solar system, instead, it reads like a fairly polished (admittedly) piece of fiction wrote by people with a very basic understanding of the world around them. The Koran the same.


  • #210
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Well I'm aware that we're dragging this thing off-topic, but since it has been going in that direction for a while..
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, and I've explained why many many times on Boards.ie. Here's one of them.

    Your explanation you linked to doesn't really hold up to any logical reasoning since it misinterprets the meaning of the 'age' of the universe - by assuming that there was quite literally nothing 13.7 billion years ago. We don't know what existed (if anything) before that time. We don't even know if time existed before then. It's obviously extremely complicated - but that's no reason to say there must be a God that answers our prayers, leaves us books and sends us to hell for having sex with the wrong person.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, it is always better to read the Bible for yourself and come up with your own arguments rather than googling and finding something that people have already heard a billion times already.

    1. I don't see why you'd have anything against me linking to someone or something that makes a point more eloquently than I can.

    2. You don't need to read every page of Harry Potter to know that it's not real. But I do know a bit about the Bible (perhaps not as much as you). Indeed, it has been said that the best argument for atheism is the Bible. Personally I believe that the best argument for atheism is a brief understanding of the history of religion(s).

    And again, a distinction must be noted between theism and deism.


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  • #211
    yammycat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭yammycat


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    True but if it is the case that a, the pastor knew lives could be lost on account of his actions and b, if the pastor had not done what he did then people who are now dead would still be alive then the pastor is vacariously responsible for murder.

    lol, so if I announce that chocolate is my God and if anybody eats chocolate I will commit a massacre should everybody stop eating chocolate ? would you stop if I announced this and would you hold yourself vacariously responsible for any massacre I commited upon consumption of chocolate by a random infidel.


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