Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

UN workers killed in Afghanistan

1…34689…16

Comments

  • #152
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....but I've already illustrated the kind of rank fanaticism which would, in any reasonable assesment, lead one to conclude there could indeed be a reaction.
    These are reactions to things that occurred in India. A country rife with problems of sectarian violence. It is not comparable to people indiscriminately killing people trying to help them for the actions of a man a few thousand miles away. Not only that but there is a possibility that the people killed were not even Christian. They just barbarically killed the first "infidels" they saw.


  • #153
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    These are reactions to things that occurred in India. A country rife with problems of sectarian violence. It is not comparable to people indiscriminately killing people trying to help them for the actions of a man a few thousand miles away. Not only that but there is a possibility that the people killed were not even Christian. They just barbarically killed the first "infidels" they saw.

    Again, this idea that things would stop at the borders of india is rather laughable.

    I've shown violence in reaction to desecration of an idol, and violent intolerance of others beliefs and customs. Thats indicative of a similar level of fanaticism.

    Now, be as good as to explain why - if the problem is with "muslims" - the violent reaction was confined to Afghanistan.


  • #154
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    Again, this idea that things would stop at the borders of india is rather laughable.
    Why is it laughable? I have never heard of Hindu Extremists launching attacks outside of India.
    Now, be as good as to explain why - if the problem is with "muslims" - the violent reaction was confined to Afghanistan.
    Have you spoken to Muslims from other regions? Muslim extremists across the globe would do the same had they the chance.


  • #155
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Why is it laughable? I have never heard of Hindu Extremists launching attacks outside of India..

    ....merely because there has yet to be cause. I might point out that there was some hindu extremist involvment with sections of the Tamil struggle.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Have you spoken to Muslims from other regions? Muslim extremists across the globe would do the same had they the chance.

    O, so you've mind read the worlds muslims and compiled their answers?
    The fact is that the violent reaction has been confined to Afghanistan. That rather undermines your efforts to pin the fanaticism of a few on the muslim population as a whole.


  • #156
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    O, so you've mind read the worlds muslims and compiled their answers?
    The fact is that the violent reaction has been confined to Afghanistan. That rather undermines your efforts to pin the fanaticism of a few on the muslim population as a whole.
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

    When Muhammad himself ordered that someone who wrote a poem he found insulting be murdered in his sleep I do not see what is so wrong with saying that Muslims agree with punishment for those that insult Islam.


  • Advertisement
  • #157
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

    When Muhammad himself ordered that someone who wrote a poem he found insulting be murdered in his sleep I do not see what is so wrong with saying that Muslims agree with punishment for those that insult Islam.

    Within 30 seconds you could find countless similar orders/actions in the bible from God.


  • #158
    th3 s1aught3r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭th3 s1aught3r


    Pastor jones goes on about muslim extremeists, when he himself is an extremeist. He wants the UN to demand that Islamic nations change their laws. The UN is not just made up of christian countries, but then I suppose Pastor Jones has never been out of the United States, but he seems to know all about these nations ?


  • #159
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Within 30 seconds you could find countless similar orders/actions in the bible from God.
    I seriously doubt you will ever find a direct order from Jesus to any of his apostles to go kill a man in his sleep because he wrote a poem that offended him.

    But all in all, that is quite beyond the point. At the end of the day, it is actions that matter most.

    As I said before...

    If that pastor had burnt any other Religious book there would have been no media attention and no violent response.


  • #160
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    th3 s1aught3r wrote: »
    Pastor jones goes on about muslim extremeists, when he himself is an extremeist. He wants the UN to demand that Islamic nations change their laws. The UN is not just made up of christian countries, but then I suppose Pastor Jones has never been out of the United States, but he seems to know all about these nations ?
    What does the pastor have to do with this topic that is about the reaction and not so much the act itself? The pastor should have realised there are better ways to voice your opinion than burning Holy Books... But under no circumstances can the actions of those that murdered the UN works be apologised for and the actions of the pastor condemned in its stead.


  • #161
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

    When Muhammad himself ordered that someone who wrote a poem he found insulting be murdered in his sleep I do not see what is so wrong with saying that Muslims agree with punishment for those that insult Islam.

    An evasion. A koran was burnt, yet this violent reaction is confined to Afghanistan. That undermines your various generalisations against muslims.


  • Advertisement
  • #162
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    An evasion. A koran was burnt, yet this violent reaction is confined to Afghanistan. That undermines your various generalisations against muslims.
    An evasion of what? Muslims should live according to the Qur'an. Surely there is nothing better for a Muslim to do than to live as did Allah's greatest prophet...

    Surely Allah's greatest messenger should be the quintessential ambassador of Islam. If they take issue with Muhammad's decisions then they are not true Muslims.


  • #163
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Couple of paragraphs from a blog post on the subject of whether the pastor is responsible for the deaths, given that he knew what the response would be:
    There are far more innocuous acts that also have a reasonable expectation of causing trouble, like Geert Wilders’s and Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s criticism of Islam. They now need police protection because they’ve “insulted” Islam. The threats against them were absolutely predictable. If they are murdered by Muslim extremists, as was Theo van Gogh, are they responsible for their own deaths?

    In 2005 a Danish newspaper published caricatures of Mohamed that led to Muslim riots and many deaths. Should the editors of the newspaper not only be denied this kind of expression, but also be tried for murder? After all, the riots were just as predictable there as with Pastor Jones’s act.


  • #164
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    An evasion of what? Muslims should live according to the Qur'an. Surely there is nothing better for a Muslim to do than to live as did Allah's greatest prophet...

    Surely Allah's greatest messenger should be the quintessential ambassador of Islam. If they take issue with Muhammad's decisions then they are not true Muslims.

    You know what the exact, absolute, definteively correct reading of a religous text is? Do you also have the ability to walk on water...?

    Anyhoo - you've yet to explain to me why the reaction has been confined to Afghanistan. I await a response with interest.


  • #165
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    You know what the exact, absolute, definteively correct reading of a religous text is?
    How can the following be interpreted in more than one way? It's just a historical account of Muhammad's life.
    Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."


  • #166
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How can the following be interpreted in more than one way? It's just a historical account of Muhammad's life.

    People can read anything into anything. Theres 38,000 christian sects and one bible. Theres a good few muslim sects and one Koran.

    Now - why was the reaction confined to Afghanistan, given your tarring the whole muslim population with the same brush?


  • #167
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    People can read anything into anything. Theres a good few muslim sects and one Koran.
    I don't care how many Muslim sects there are. Literal accounts of someone's life cannot be read in multiple ways.


  • #168
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I don't care how many Muslim sects there are. Literal accounts of someone's life cannot be read in multiple ways.

    But they are. I'm glad you are at least consistent in your preference of your own narrative over reality however.

    Now, Afghanistan - why was the reaction confined to Afghanistan, given your tarring the whole muslim population with the same brush?


  • #169
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    But they are. I'm glad you are at least consistent in your preference of your own narrative over reality however.
    Ah yes, of course. Muhammad's decision to kill the man who offended him was actually a metaphor for his love and compassion towards the man. He was just expressing himself artistically.

    /Sarcasm

    Muhammad was the quintessential Muslim, was he not? He decided to kill the man who offended him and Allah. This is the man that all Muslims aspire to be like. Therefore it makes perfect sense that all true Muslims ought to kill those that offend Muhammad and/or Allah. What these Afghani Muslims did was kill innocent men as they belonged to the same group (Westerners) who burnt a Qur'an. They were simply imitating Muhammad as all true Muslims should.
    Now, Afghanistan - why was the reaction confined to Afghanistan, given your tarring the whole muslim population with the same brush?
    I've already answered this question. Now, if you don't mind, can you remove it from your clipboard? I'm rather sick of hearing the same question being asked after it has been answered.


  • #170
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I've already answered this question. Now, if you don't mind, can you remove it from your clipboard? I'm rather sick of hearing the same question being asked after it has been answered.

    You did? Would you mind giving me the post number or linking to it? I seem to have missed it.


  • #171
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    hehe... Arguing with rabid Christians about Islam... :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • #172
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    You did? Would you mind giving me the post number or linking to it? I seem to have missed it.
    I've been answering it the past few posts... In fact, had you read the section above what you quoted you would have seen a continuation of my answer.
    RichieC wrote: »
    hehe... Arguing with rabid Christians about Islam... :pac:
    Rabid Christian? :confused:


  • #173
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭RichieC


    you, Party, you!


  • #174
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    RichieC wrote: »
    you, Party, you!

    :confused:


  • #175
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    :confused:
    This guy


  • #176
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Dave! wrote: »
    This guy
    I understood what he meant. I just don't understand how I could be considered a rabid Christian.

    In any case, I won't be going any further with this conversation. Richie never offers anything constructive to a debate. His area of expertise is trying to get a rise out of people and nothing more.


  • #177
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I've been answering it the past few posts... In fact, had you read the section above what you quoted you would have seen a continuation of my answer.

    I see it there now.

    So you're saying that all true muslims should do the same as Afghan muslims and the confinement to Afghanistan is related to them being the only true muslims?

    Bit of a mental answer, tbh.

    Still, your worries are over, as you now know where the problem people are. Maybe in future you'll be less quick to throw out massive generalisations about the muslim population.


  • #178
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Still, your worries are over, as you now know where the problem people are. Maybe in future you'll be less quick to throw out massive generalisations about the muslim population.
    If the Muslim population is Muslim as they claim to be then naturally then will see Muhammad and his choices and actions as being something that they should aspire to replicate. It's not a generalisation. This is the man who founded their Religion. They are simply following his example as all true Muslims should.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I see it there now.

    So you're saying that all true muslims should do the same as Afghan muslims and the confinement to Afghanistan is related to them being the only true muslims?

    Bit of a mental answer, tbh.
    If something taken from the Qur'an is a mental answer then...

    Perhaps it's best not to complete that sentence :pac:


  • #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    If the Muslim(.......)that sentence :pac:

    You aren't very good at this, are you?

    The fact is that the majority of muslims have not acted as the ones in Afghanistan. Your claims to know what the others should do are irrelevant, as they haven't acted in such a manner. You yourself did say
    But all in all, that is quite beyond the point. At the end of the day, it is actions that matter most.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71500357&postcount=159
    are you saying that doesn't apply to muslims?

    And of course theres been your goal post shifting.....
    There are Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and people of many other Religions living in dire poverty across Africa and Asia. They are the epitome of underdeveloped yet I have never heard of either Hindu, Buddhist or Christian extremists murdering innocent people for something that someone else did.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71481997&postcount=72

    ...but when confronted with examples to the contrary it's
    If someone publicly destroyed Hindu statues here in Ireland would that incite Hindu extremists to launch a terrorist attack against Ireland? Would that cause Hindu extremists to indiscriminately kill people who have nothing to do with Ireland?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71495861&postcount=131

    ...which of course is a silly evasion, as fanatics are no respecters of boundaries.

    And this comedy classic
    I don't care how many Muslim sects there are. Literal accounts of someone's life cannot be read in multiple ways.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71501883&postcount=167

    There was a funny t-shirt that said "I reject your reality, and substitute my own".

    It is also a fact that you are not the divinely appointed interpreter of religous texts. I'd cite lack of miracles, badly constructed arguments and self contradiction as proof. You may of course prove me wrong by calling down divine wrath.


  • #180
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Nodin wrote: »
    You aren't very good at this, are you?
    Very good at what?
    The fact is that the majority of muslims have not acted as the ones in Afghanistan. Your claims to know what the others should do are irrelevant, as they haven't acted in such a manner.
    The difference between Afghanistan and other states is stability. Years of instability have allowed extremists the chance to do things like these. When the prophet that they seek to replicate himself killed the man who offended him it is natural that all Muslims too would seek to punish all those who desecrate a Qur'an.

    ...which of course is a silly evasion, as fanatics are no respecters of boundaries.
    Rhetoric aside, would burning a Vedas have caused the same reaction by Hindu Extremist? Or perhaps would a caricature of a Hindu god back in 2005 have caused bombings and death threats across the globe?
    And this comedy classic


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71501883&postcount=167
    How can a literal account of someone's life be interpreted in more than one way? It's not up for interpretation. It's the life and actions of Muhammad.
    It is also a fact that you are not the divinely appointed interpreter of religous texts.
    Here's a literal account of someone's life

    Tom spoke to his friends and discussed whether or not he should kill the man who offended him and his God. One of his friends, Jack, volunteered himself to kill the man for him. Jack then asked Tom whether or not he is permitted to lie in the process of killing the man. Tom agreed and gave him his permission.

    Have a go at interpreting that. Literal language only has one meaning.


    There was a funny t-shirt that said "I reject your reality, and substitute my own".
    And of course theres been your goal post shifting.....
    ...but when confronted with examples to the contrary it's
    I'd cite lack of miracles, badly constructed arguments and self contradiction as proof. You may of course prove me wrong by calling down divine wrath.
    Less of the strawmanning and less of the crap, if you will.


  • Advertisement
  • #181
    TheRevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 452 ✭✭TheRevolution


    In parts of Africa people have been killed for simply speaking out against the bible.

    Despite what you want to believe this problem isn't confined to Muslims, its just we tend to hear about Muslims acts of savagery more. People should really read about whats being done in the name of christianity in Africa.


Advertisement