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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #1452
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Are you actually serious or just trying to wind us up?

    I presume you have a knowledge of this line and therefore know how it was built originally and rebuilt recently? You do know the area it serves? And as for your road reference, don't you realise that roads get more spend because there are more of them and it is internationally the most popular form of transport. Roads aren't "competition", they are a fact of life since the goddamn Romans starting building them.

    Here's a history lesson....

    Roads built for carts. Canals replace them with barges. Railways replace Canals with speed and capacity. Roads conquer railways after the invention of the car. Railways retract and offer higher speeds to compete with certain road journeys. Which bit is missing in Ireland? (and your tilting train won't solve the WRC dilemma)
    The bit where Ireland moves forward is the missing bit. You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany and the other bigger EU countries if you want, and lament your chance to actually not be Luddites.

    Funny how phrases like "WRC dilemma" suddenly pop up without a definition. What is the dilemma, tell us? I say if there is a dilemma, it's where you have built a modern railway (with concrete sleepers, welded rails and all) and operate at speeds comparable to 4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters.

    Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them. Trying to pretend that there is a missing dimension beyond that is either not having knowledge of the subject or denying such knowledge when presented. While people on this thread pontificate about "WRC dilemmas" and "greenways" in an empty manner, you have triple-digit average speeds on traditional railways in Germany with tilting ICE-Ts, average speeds between 150 and 175 km/h on Sweden's traditional railways (with the X2000), and even the decades-old Intercity 125 (diesel, non-tilting) achieved average speeds of up to 168 km/h. Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.


  • #1453
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    CIE wrote: »
    The bit where Ireland moves forward is the missing bit. You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany and the other bigger EU countries if you want, and lament your chance to actually not be Luddites.

    Funny how phrases like "WRC dilemma" suddenly pop up without a definition. What is the dilemma, tell us? I say if there is a dilemma, it's where you have built a modern railway (with concrete sleepers, welded rails and all) and operate at speeds comparable to 4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters.

    Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them. Trying to pretend that there is a missing dimension beyond that is either not having knowledge of the subject or denying such knowledge when presented. While people on this thread pontificate about "WRC dilemmas" and "greenways" in an empty manner, you have triple-digit average speeds on traditional railways in Germany with tilting ICE-Ts, average speeds between 150 and 175 km/h on Sweden's traditional railways (with the X2000), and even the decades-old Intercity 125 (diesel, non-tilting) achieved average speeds of up to 168 km/h. Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.

    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.


  • #1454
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.

    and to do that you need tens of thousands of potential passengers, who arent there....we have no money and to invest massively in this line and tilting trains fro it for the benefit mainly of free-pass holding passngers would have the "Powers that Be" pulling down the shutters on Ireland right away.


  • #1455
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corktina wrote: »
    and to do that you need tens of thousands of potential passengers, who arent there....we have no money and to invest massively in this line and tilting trains fro it for the benefit mainly of free-pass holding passngers would have the "Powers that Be" pulling down the shutters on Ireland right away.

    Awh I wanted a go in a tilting train!


  • #1456
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    I have to analyse at some key phrases in this, and return to this. Have you registered with the ladies over at the rotary club who fantasise about rail transport, or are is there grounding in reality at Planet CIE.

    "Ireland moves forward" (chuckles)
    "You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany" (Who paid the cohesion funding, and paid for the upgrading, rebuilding and reconditioning of the system)
    "Luddites" Oh lovely. I have to look up a new word. No, I am definitely not a Luddite. You mean I have to throw stones at buses and cars on the N18 so the railway can survive.

    "4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters"

    Bingo - a trainspotter.

    "Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them"

    Tilters are used on medium traffic main lines. No route in Ireland justifies the additional expense. If a line has level crossings, tight curves, steep gradients, tilting technology will make very little difference. A speed restriction is still a speed restriction, and Microsoft Train Simulator is a toy, its not reality.

    Did I tell you a secret?- the cows look small because they are far away

    Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.

    Germany - core.
    Ireland - periphery.

    That was why Ireland got cohesion funding, to upgrade a peripheral economy to European standards. Unfortunately, it was siphoned off into swopping rooms for more expensive rooms, which became more expensive again, then some "clever" people thought they could make everyone very happy by making them more expensive again. By the time they became too expensive nobody cared anymore, because everyone thought that they were going to get more expensive again. .......Oh in short, its called irrational exhuberance.


    And Greece - their OSE railway system is having their spending curtailed. So I think a look at Greece rather than Germany is more in tune with the likely reality.

    It is 2011. The economy is 25% smaller than it was in 2007 and the same size as it was in 2002-3.

    As for Fine Gael. Let them sort the unholy mess left to them by Fianna Fail. If it means closing a railway or two, and privatising lines which do not work under CIE, so be it...not soviet, I'd like to see what the CIE unions do. The likely reality is that a privatised network could be better run, but the scaremongering from CIE unions, and management has mislead the public into believing - that "there is no alternative to CIE", that "there is no alternative to CIE". Which is rubbish, as proven by experience in Germany, Denmark, Sweden and even Britain for that matter.

    I am not insulting the workers there, I am certainly targetting the managers and champagne socialist union representatives.

    Now if I see that phrase - "argumentum ad hominem", I may take it you have been expelled from the ladies rotary club also? I'll assume its Hugh Heffner. If so welcome to the forum, and I will try to be civil. I may be abrasive, but it really is nothing personal.


  • #1457
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    CIE wrote: »
    If the "through traffic is very limited", then why does the X51 with its hourly service even exist...? If tilt-train non-stop service started running hourly between the two cities (or even bi-hourly), would that put a dent in route X51's business perhaps? And on top of that, we still have the 51 (which runs through to Cork on a number of trips) running hourly. It's not the railway; it's the rolling stock, and the signalling with that if same does not permit high top speeds (60 mph limit for no reason given).

    I will only deal with your first sentence, through traffic is limited on the railway because of service levels and limited demand plus a better service ahievable by bus. A two hour journey is uncompetitive with the X51, both in terms of price, speed and frequency. Increasing service levels is not justified by the volume of traffic, even if all the bus journies were transferred. The level of bus services is also probably unjustified, I don't know what capacity the X51 is working to, perhaps others might comment, but the cost of one bus in energy terms compared to one train service is highly competitive on environmental terms (a bus from Limerick to Galway will I presume use less diesel then a twenty ton train (don't come back to tell me its 18 ton or something stupid - I am not a trains spotter and wouldn't know a DMU from a SVU). The x 51 is an express service are you suggesting that to compete the train service needs an express service to compete with the X51 plus a stopping service!? That would go down well on every halting stop that was part of the "community based campaign to restore rail services on this strategic piece of infrastructure" I use quotes as this is the kind of babble we got from WOT.

    Your point about tilting trains etc on the rail line - bizare, surreal and ridiculous for all the reasons more eloquently outlined by others.


  • #1458
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yeah i didnt read it all either!

    Who in their right mind would advocate hi tech tilting trains for a rural byway which are of a higher spec than the freight loco + Mk4 (which arent as good as the mk3) used on the premier main line in the country?

    PS id say EACH Carriage is more than 20 tonnes Westie....

    which is he ? Tom, Bert, or Bill Huggins ?


  • #1459
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    yeah i didnt read it all either!

    Who in their right mind would advocate hi tech tilting trains for a rural byway which are of a higher spec than the freight loco + Mk4 (which arent as good as the mk3) used on the premier main line in the country?

    PS id say EACH Carriage is more than 20 tonnes Westie....

    which is he ? Tom, Bert, or Bill Huggins ?

    Its interesting how the tree huggers go on about trains been greener but they never say oh BTW you would x litres of diesel to chug a train from Limerick to Galway in two hours and x-y litres to send a bus on the same journey in one hour.

    What would be interesting on the WRC southern branch line is to on the back of an envelope work out - how many litres of diesel are used by week, divide it by the number of passengers carried - and do the same for the all the buses on the same route and work out which format of transport actually is greener? I don't know what the answer would my gut reaction is the train is using a lot more fuel per passenger than the bus. Of course when it comes to mass movements of people in and out of cities - where trains really do work for commuter services the story may be different.


  • #1460
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.

    Fantastic post DWC - You've really made me smile!


  • #1461
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    With Leo Varadkar in charge of Transport I think we can safely say the WRC northern branch line is a gonner.


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  • #1462
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    westtip wrote: »
    With Leo Veradkur in charge of Transport I think we can safely say the WRC northern branch line is a gonner.

    And the rest. I understand that his knowledge of Transport is commensurate with his interest in Sport. An arrogant twit to boot, so much so that he could almost be a clone of Noel Dempsey. :rolleyes:


  • #1463
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Oul Leo won't have much say in the WRC. The Tuam decision will be made above his head.

    FFS I'm sounding like a WOT head, but in all seriousness I still believe that Tuam will be reached despite my dislike of the idea. It will happen before MN/DU.

    As usual I will hold my hands up if I'm wrong.


  • #1464
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Not so great. On these numbers, the subsidy is now about €150 per journey. A chap living along the line commuting in and out 5 days a week would need around 70K a year in subsidies. Enough to buy a new BMW 5 series with tax, fuel and insurance. Every year. For every %&#ing passenger.

    However, maybe all is not lost, with 4 Fine Gael boys including the tee-shock himself in Mayo, we may well see this vital piece of infrastructure completed.
    Rail route numbers low

    PASSENGERS NUMBERS on the long-anticipated first phase of the Western Rail Corridor are falling far short of projections made in the business case for the route.

    In March last year, the €106 million route from Ennis to Athenry – connecting Galway to Limerick by rail – was opened after years of lobbying in the west.

    However, figures provided by the Department of Transport in response to a Freedom of Information request show that passenger numbers between May and September last year averaged 4,800 a month.

    ...more


  • #1465
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Services are below target but frequency is being raised to 6 per direction per day - if only they had thought of that on the South Wexford or Limerick-Ballybrophy :D They were supposed to have started out strongly so must be really whistling past the graveyard now.

    CIE is a repeat spoofer - how would a tilting train deal with a 25mph or 40mph SR associated with a level crossing or an accommodation crossing? Read the IE network statement. In fairness a couple of those are being removed, but you could remove a lot more (not to mention do some flood prevention) with the cost of obtaining stock like Deutsche Bahn Class 605.

    Teddy455 - I honestly think the number of people using Crusheen will be negligible. Oranmore has a chance given local pop density but it's also on the Dublin line.

    Westtip - to a large extent the Ennis-Limerick section operates in much the same way you talk about Gort - that's how the sixth rotation is coming into play by bringing a train from Galway to link up with an existing commuter service.

    Incidentally, the mention earlier of buses. I think Expressways weigh somewhere about 20 tonnes. 2700 class cars weigh 42 tonnes. A 22000 car weighs 63 tonnes, and there was talk about putting three of them on the Limerick-Galway with over 200 seats per set. Short of forcing BE off the road I dunno how that's going to work.


  • #1466
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    dynamick wrote: »
    Not so great. On these numbers, the subsidy is now about €150 per journey. A chap living along the line commuting in and out 5 days a week would need around 70K a year in subsidies. Enough to buy a new BMW 5 series with tax, fuel and insurance. Every year. For every %&#ing passenger.

    However, maybe all is not lost, with 4 Fine Gael boys including the tee-shock himself in Mayo, we may well see this vital piece of infrastructure completed.

    Wow those figures are even lower than I expected - and what i am wondering is this an aggregate figure of circa 65,000 that actually covers the WHOLE LINE, If those only using Ennis - Limerick (the existing commuter line) and those using Athenry - Galway (existing line) are included - the number of through "intercity" journies must be abysmal. If the breakdown of figures from Athenry to Ennis can be got - the picture will I think be even more gloomy. The article isn't entirely clear on this it doesn't clearly state the 65,000 is just Ennis/Athenry, as said if its the whole line, it is a disaster for this project and even if its the linking new bit of the line - it still does not make good reading for supporters of phase 2 and 3. (remember use it or lose it).

    I disagree about the My constituency thing I don't think it will be a big factor in the future decision re northern branch line, I think and hope for the time being that kind of nonsense will leave the irish political stage and actually I think Enda coming from Mayo will work against this project as - he for one will definitely not want to have the finger pointed at him saying there you go local priorities over national priorities. He will be more cautious than anyone in this regard.

    Its also interesting the FOI request had to go through the DOT, Irish Rail where only too quick to tell me that they (Irish Rail) were not covered by the FOI and would not provide the kind of information referred to in the Irish Times article. The cat is now out the bag. We shall see what happens over the next few months.

    Dynamik you may have slightly overstated the subsidy at €150 per journey - the Article states the line subsidy is 2.4 million - if there are 65000 journies made on the line - thats 2.4million/65k = €37 per journey - still ludicrous - and on your five times a week return journey - 10 a week = €370 per week subsidy for a regular commuter (for which apparently there was a huge latent demamd - it seems not). However what does need clarification is the 65,000 journies the aggregate figure for the total line - I am trying to get this from DOT.


  • #1467
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    westtip wrote: »
    Wow those figures are even lower than I expected - and I think the figure given is the blanket figure of circa 65,000 actually covers the WHOLE LINE, those only using Ennis - Limerick (the existing commuter line) and those using Athenry - Galway (existing line) are included - the number of through "intercity" journies must be abysmal. If the breakdown of figures from Athenry to Ennis can be got - the picture will I think be even more gloomy.
    I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here.

    Passenger numbers for Ennis-Limerick were reported 3 yrs ago at a healthy enough 220K/year. the key factor was that Ennis-LImerick was faster by rail than bus or car. Also there was good business for Ennis-Dublin. The new section (Ennis-Athenry) appears to be carrying 60-65K additional passengers at a capital cost of 7m per year and an operational loss of 3m per year.

    --edit--
    The 2.4m annual operational loss was based on 200K journeys per year in 5 years. However the line only has 60K journeys. If we take average fare at a tenner, that's an additional loss of 1.4m/year. So it's conservative to estimate the annual operational loss at 3m/year

    The capital cost is a well document 106m. Over 30 years @5%, that's a repayment of 6.8m per year.

    capital cost plus interest plus operational loss will exceed 10m/year.
    divide €10m by 60K passengers and you get a subsidy of €166/trip


  • #1468
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Thanks Dynamik very good points. I think the numbers for Ennis Limerick may have tumbled in the past three years. I have got an email from Irish Rail to say the aggregate figures for Limerick - Galway in 2010 are 110,000 reproduced below with names removed - it actually came from Barry Kenny's PA

    From: yyyy yyyyy [mailto:yyyy.yyyyy@irishrail.ie]
    Sent: 04 February 2011 11:57
    To: XXXXXX
    Subject: RE: user figures for the Ennis to Athenry line

    Hi XXXX
    Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions
    We do not have any broken down figures available

    Kind regards,
    YYYY

    So the figures you quoted of three years have already halved.

    Whichever way these numbers are cut and massaged there is very little positive news in it for West on Track - all their arguments about the latent demand for this service have now been washed out into the Shannon Estuary. I don't expect even West on Track to put out one of their press releases on this with a positive spin.


  • #1469
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    westtip wrote: »

    As usual I will hold my hands up if I'm wrong.

    bog_brother.jpg?t=1299867555


  • #1470
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    It did'nt take long did it?

    "Build it and they will come"
    "Dublin is an aberration that needs to be tamed"

    The passenger figures PROVE what many of us here have stated all along. I for one think its a dark day for rail transport in Ireland.

    Shamwari stated - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70792488#post70792488

    And I quote: I'd like to see an end to the ridiculous nonesense being peddled that one message board and a few trainspotters are being held up as pariahs for the wrongs of the railway. In fact, your rantings here are makes you little better than they are. The very notion that such a small group can control railways for their interest to the detriment of the entire nation is hilarious.

    Not quite, but lets analyse this. The failure of the Western Rail Corridor will be held up as an example to prevent further investment in the rail network. The silence from the ladies over at the rotary club is DEAFENING. What I shame I can't drop in for some tea and cucumber sandwiches and gloat - "Told you so"

    The likes of Guckian peddling railroad gick to county councillors and failed politicians also does the rail transport network no favours. WHY?

    Because when a viable project is proposed, the transport minister will roll their eyes and say -

    "Oh Christ, its another of those wierdoes again"

    It took less than 7 years from objection to construction to failure, and its a shame. But, remember who told you first, who warned you first, and WHY those objections were made.


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  • #1471
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    Has their been any reaction from WoT to these figures? How they are going to spin this around is beyond me.


  • #1472
    flazio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,250 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    dermo88 wrote: »
    The likes of Guckian peddling railroad gick to county councillors and failed politicians also does the rail transport network no favours. WHY?

    Because when a viable project is proposed, the transport minister will roll their eyes and say -

    "Oh Christ, its another of those wierdoes again"

    It took less than 7 years from objection to construction to failure, and its a shame. But, remember who told you first, who warned you first, and WHY those objections were made.

    Nah, they'll just make sure it's heading to Dublin before building it.


  • #1473
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    Has their been any reaction from WoT to these figures? How they are going to spin this around is beyond me.

    There is little doubt they will come out with some press release along the lines that these Dublin 4 journalists have got it all wrong - the story was from a journo based in Limerick BTW, and no doubt some spin will be put on the issue of these figures not telling the full story - such as how many more passengers are using some other parts of the line or the services on the line are inadequate etc etc. Wotever it will make pitiful reading. The WOT PR machine will go into overdrive but the damage is already done.

    The FOI information granted to him is now available from the DOT and makes very interesting reading. There is no doubt a very close eye is now going to be kept on this whole show, LV won't put up with any nonsense that is for sure.

    More people used the Great Western Greenway than the Western Rail Corriodor during the summer months.

    Figures from Mayo Coco showed , 1,000 at weekends and 300 a day in the summer on the Great Western Greenway = 2,500 per week = 10,000 per four weekly period.

    In Emails released under a recent FOI request Irish Rail say the usage of the line is circa 5,000 per 4 weekly period.

    Greenway users get tired and hungry and eat and drink and pay VAT on services they buy, If someone now wants to do a cost benefit analysis on greenway versus railway for ANY part of the WRC, these are the kind of facts they are now staring at. Hopefully our new Transport and Tourism will see the real benefit that can be drawn into the western economy by utilising this facility for something that people actually want. West on Track often quote how many people have signed their petitions etc - clearly all the supporters they claim to have had have not continued their support by actually using the dam service.

    The Great Western Greenway was built for less than 2 million (compared to 106 million for Ennis - Athenry), in terms of tourist numbers it has bought into the area in such short space of time, and continues to do so - it will have paid for itself in increased local tourism revenues in a very short space of time - these are the facts now facing LV. Its not rocket science is it.


  • #1474
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    flazio wrote: »
    Nah, they'll just make sure it's heading to Dublin before building it.

    where all the people live


  • #1475
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Here is West-on-Tracks response.
    PASSENGER NUMBERS ON GALWAY RAIL ROUTE DISPUTED

    March 11, 2011 - 2:10pm
    PASSENGER NUMBERS ON GALWAY RAIL ROUTE DISPUTED
    Supporters of the Western Rail Corridor are challenging figures, which suggest that passenger numbers on the first phase of the rail link are poor.

    The Department of Transport says passenger numbers on the route between Ennis and Athenry averaged at 4,800 a month.

    The figure falls short of the 100,000 passenger projection made in the business case for the line, five years ago.

    However, the West-on-Track group says the figures don't take account of the fact that there are four less services per day than originally planned.http://www.galwaynews.ie/18251-passenger-numbers-galway-rail-route-disputed


  • #1476
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    mgmt wrote: »
    Here is West-on-Tracks response.


    There are four less services a day than originally planned! What kind of logic is that. Even by their surreal standards this makes no sense.

    This is like saying giving a blood transfusion to a dead body will bring it back to life.


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  • #1477
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Even with 4 or 6 or 10 extra services per day numbers would remain poor as people prefer paying much less for a much faster quieter and more comfortable bus journey which would still be more frequent!


  • #1478
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Not to mention that it's pretty hard to run 9 tpdpd through the track design where there are only passing loops at Ennis, Gort and Athenry. I guess that's what happens when you pull a number out of your ass for a rebuild and then that's all IE are given to build it. Now IE have to try and find more money to do upgrades which should have been in from day 1.
    Irish Railway News wrote:
    New overbridges are under construction to replace severely speed restricted crossings XE74 and XE75 at MP31 1/4, XE166 at MP51 1/2 and XE197 at MP56 5/8 in the Ennis-Athenry section.

    In fairness to IE and the usual refrain of "where did all the money go", this quote is in the same piece:
    In 1999 there were 2,035 live level crossings while in 2010 there are 1,095, a reduction of 47%. Level crossing accidents account for 2% of road deaths in Europe, but a third of all rail fatalities.


  • #1479
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    There are four less services a day than originally planned! What kind of logic is that. Even by their surreal standards this makes no sense.

    This is like saying giving a blood transfusion to a dead body will bring it back to life.
    False analogy. Unless you're calling Ireland a corpse? because if it were, then no motorways should be built either and all such infrastructure building ought to stop.
    easttip wrote: »
    The FOI information granted to him is now available from the DOT and makes very interesting reading. There is no doubt a very close eye is now going to be kept on this whole show, LV won't put up with any nonsense that is for sure.

    More people used the Great Western Greenway than the Western Rail Corridor during the summer months.

    Figures from Mayo Coco showed , 1,000 at weekends and 300 a day in the summer on the Great Western Greenway = 2,500 per week = 10,000 per four weekly period.

    In Emails released under a recent FOI request Irish Rail say the usage of the line is circa 5,000 per 4 weekly period.

    Greenway users get tired and hungry and eat and drink and pay VAT on services they buy, If someone now wants to do a cost benefit analysis on greenway versus railway for ANY part of the WRC, these are the kind of facts they are now staring at. Hopefully our new Transport and Tourism will see the real benefit that can be drawn into the western economy by utilising this facility for something that people actually want. West on Track often quote how many people have signed their petitions etc - clearly all the supporters they claim to have had have not continued their support by actually using the dam service.

    The Great Western Greenway was built for less than 2 million (compared to 106 million for Ennis-Athenry), in terms of tourist numbers it has bought into the area in such short space of time, and continues to do so - it will have paid for itself in increased local tourism revenues in a very short space of time - these are the facts now facing LV. Its not rocket science is it
    These are the "facts"? Looks more like fuzzy logic. "Emails released under a FOI request"...now this is gospel? or is it propaganda, selectively released to arouse anti-rail sentiment? Where are the full details? Are these numbers for people travelling from Limerick to Galway alone, or for all intermediate travellers? Remember, there are only five trains a day each way between Limerick and Galway, which means only 925 possible seats per day (740 on Sundays) assuming a four-car train, and not all for travellers bound for the end points (we were over this already; there is a far, far higher average ridership per train than 18 passengers). There is also the question of efficacy of fare recovery, never mind efficacy of passenger counts; remember, you're taking purported IE figures as gospel, and we all know how well that company's managed. Not to mention, it still "competes" against itself on the motorway and local "regional" road routes, which is a built-in conflict of interest — that's fourteen local buses each way and ten express buses each way, for 23 bus trips total and about 1272 seats per day every day, spread out over different times of the day (that increases utility compared to the train and its five departures per day; by design, you think?), with more of these seats available for passengers headed for the end points of the journey; and of course, more man-power necessary for the buses' operation.

    We're still comparing greenway to railway...well, greenways have no commercial potential; you cannot transport goods over a greenway, nor packages, nor post, nor anything of real value at any kind of speed that would be useful to a business. Relative construction costs are distorted by the fact that a railway company pre-built the alignment, so those costs aren't factored into whatever was spent to convert the alignment. Rhetorical talk of "tourist revenue" and "VAT" merely obscures the fact that the greenway requires 100 percent subvention and always will, and also obscures the equal if not greater tourist potential of a railway; on top of that, you need to use the road network to access the greenway, never mind that horrid railway that ends at Westport and used to go to Achill over what is now the greenway. Furthermore, it being a greenway means that it remains a haven for all sorts of vermin; having people walking or cycling on that route means that they come into physical contact with whatever disease vectors are in the vicinity. Ireland may not have any indigenous large predators such as bears and big cats, but the country still has a problem with stray dogs; you can't encounter those on a train like you can on a greenway.

    Why is Irish Rail never questioned on the matter of why they operate certain intercity railway services just as slow on rebuilt alignments as on alignments that are in much worse condition than the rebuilt one...? The average speed of Waterford-Limerick remains the same as Limerick-Galway, in spite of the fact that Waterford-Limerick is in far shabbier condition. It's a little too convenient that 100-mph-capable Mark 3s (which were a mere two decades old) were chucked away, never mind no 22000-class railcars operating an intercity service such as Limerick-Galway. There's also the matter of re-signalling Limerick-Ennis, i.e. if that's complete yet, and why shouldn't it be if not; AFAIHH, this is the main obstacle to higher speeds on that part of the railway and not the curves.

    I've never seen so many people talk up the government line on things...so funny. Meanwhile, in the country you've sold your sovereignty to, they have this...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KWWNYhgqk4

    (Should this thread on the WRC really be locked too? because it's as one-sided as all the rest of them on this topic.)


  • #1480
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    "Emails released under a FOI request"...now this is gospel? or is it propaganda, selectively released to arouse anti-rail sentiment?

    What message do you want? Its failrail, not palerail. This project has endangered any chance of future investment in the entire network.

    Furthermore, it being a greenway means that it remains a haven for all sorts of vermin; having people walking or cycling on that route means that they come into physical contact with whatever disease vectors are in the vicinity. Ireland may not have any indigenous large predators such as bears and big cats, but the country still has a problem with stray dogs; you can't encounter those on a train like you can on a greenway.

    You cannot be serious using that as an argument for a branchline. Thats seriously clutching at twigs. I suggest you leave the comedy to experts such as Daragh O'Briain.

    I've never seen so many people talk up the government line on things...so funny. Meanwhile, in the country you've sold your sovereignty to, they have this...

    Putting up pictures of German trains are trains that link German conurbations of 1 Million+ people. This line bears closer characteristics to German branch lines using 2 piece DMU's. We talk up the Government on certain things out of pragmatism, not false ideology.

    I've never seen so many people talk up the government line on things...so funny. Meanwhile, in the country you've sold your sovereignty to, they have this...

    (Should this thread on the WRC really be locked too? because it's as one-sided as all the rest of them on this topic.)

    If you want people who agree with you, irishrailwaynews is that way. I am sure the ladies at the rotary club will welcome you with open arms. Lyons tea, Ginger beer and do not use the word "twats" in relation to failed politicians, the Department of Regional Development or otherwise. They are none too fond of home truths over there unfortunately, and if stated, it may result in a ban.


  • #1481
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    again CIE shoots himself in the foot...the other day it was tilting trains and now German interurbans....really he has so discredited himself , it isnt even worth reading his posts never mind commenting on them....

    and to suggest locking this topic too just because he's on the losing side of an srguement!


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  • #1482
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    OK here is another response from WOT.
    Passenger Numbers on Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor in line with Iarnród Éireann forecasts


    The publication in two of today’s national newspapers of figures purporting to show that passenger numbers on Phase 1 of the Western rail Corridor are lower than predicted has been challenged by the West on Track campaign.
    In actual fact the figures for the line as a whole are in line with predictions made by IÉ last March. The following are the facts:
    The business case prediction made almost 5 years ago was based on the following premise:

    7 services per day in each direction between Galway and Limerick.

    Only 5 per day were granted i.e. 4 services less per day.

    A major commuter station sited in Oranmore.

    Construction is only beginning this summer on Oranmore station which is expected to be one of the busiest on the route.

    Continued growth in the economy.

    A major decline has been experienced in the economy since the original forecasts.

    In addition, by quoting a figure for part of the line only, a completely erroneous impression is conveyed as the figure does not include passengers travelling on the new services outside of the Ennis-Athenry section. For example, since these services began last March, there has been a major increase in passengers travelling between Athenry and Galway. These passengers, among others, are not included in the numbers quoted, nor are passengers with passes e.g. OAPs and social Welfare recipients.

    Contrary to the impression conveyed in today’s reports Iarnród Éireann is confident that the line will continue to develop as evidenced by a number of further developments which will take effect in May. These include:

    Two new additional services per day, including a later evening commuter service ex-Galway, expected to generate a large number of new commuters from stations further south.

    Services to Dublin from the WRC with the introduction of connectivity for 3 trains in each direction.

    Commencement of construction of new stations at Oranmore and Crusheen

    Although both Iarnród Éireann and West on Track made all of this information available to the journalist researching the story it did not appear in the versions printed.


    ENDS

    O86-8859407


    http://www.lookwest.ie/en/news/partner-news/16-partner-news/779-passenger-numbers-on-phase-1-of-the-western-rail-corridor-in-line-with-iarnrod-eireann-forecasts-


  • #1483
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    soooo...Oranmore is on the WRC now then is it....


  • #1484
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    corktina wrote: »
    soooo...Oranmore is on the WRC now then is it....


    I was thinking the same thing reading that. What makes this even more annoying is that they never lobbied for the station at Ornamore beyond a dot on their maps. They gave more importance to Sligo Airport in Strandhill as a potential customer for the line.
    Services to Dublin from the WRC with the introduction of connectivity for 3 trains in each direction.

    So Pale Rail is now their saviour... What happened to are the bug eyed, screaming for rail transport commuters, students, hospital patients, airport users, shoppers and Tourists and Tarquins with their hands full of cash for millions of rail tickets that WoT said were going to make the line the great success they always claimed?


  • #1485
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    corktina wrote: »
    soooo...Oranmore is on the WRC now then is it....

    Correct me if I'm worng...but yes! I thought WoT wanted to connect LIMERICK - GALWAY; not just Ennis-Atherny. As I've said before on here why do many of you discredit Limerick-Ennis as being the WRC, equally Atherny-Galway. They form the link between the two cities, Ennis-Athenry was the "missing link" if you like.
    Oh and no, I'm not connected with WoT or any other campaign for that matter.


  • #1486
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    correction herewith...WoT want to connect Limerick to SLIGO...the bit from Athenry to Galway is secondary to them*, hence my comment on Oranmore and other comments on services to Galway and horror of horror Dublin. They are moving the goal posts in light of the very very poor figures. ....


    *(indeed so is the bit to Limerick seeing as its the Mayo/Sligo buit they really are interested in.


  • #1487
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    CIE wrote: »
    We're still comparing greenway to railway...well, greenways have no commercial potential; you cannot transport goods over a greenway, nor packages, nor post, nor anything of real value at any kind of speed that would be useful to a business. .)


    "Greenways have no commercial potential apart from thousands of Tired Hungry Tourists, who buy meals, hotel beds, beers, crisps, sandwiches, petrol, bikes (buy or hire), bottles of coca cola bars of chocolate etc etc - No commercial potential!!!!- go and ask the hoteliers, pub owners, bike shop rental companies, 7/11 convenience stores, B&Bs who have reopened as a result of the Great Western Greenway - in Newport/Mulranny/Westport and soon to be Achill island. This is actually what people want and the proof is in the numbers using the dam thing - twice as many people using the Great Western greenway than the phase one WRC, and what is this total crap about greenways needing subvention, what is that all about?

    CIE, you are either a wind up merchant or you simply fail to grasp what contributes more to the West of Ireland economy than any other industry. Tourism. And activity tourism not trainsspotting is the future so if you want to keep your head in the sand that is your choice otherwise Wake up and smell the roses.
    These passengers, among others, are not included in the numbers quoted, nor are passengers with passes e.g. OAPs and social Welfare recipients.

    This bit from the WOT press release really takes the biscuit - It seems to bump up the numbers we now have to include social welfare and OAP freebies - so heres the logic folks - there are thousands of pensioners and dollsters who want to travel free on the train from Limerick to Galway - lets build a railway to so we can provide full social justice express. OMG is this for real from WOT, infrastructure needs now to meet the travelling needs of the OAP and social welfare recipients. Please tell me they really haven't been so dim witted to actually put this in a press release. Please do tell me they are not that stupid.


  • #1488
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    dynamick wrote: »
    Not so great. On these numbers, the subsidy is now about €150 per journey. A chap living along the line commuting in and out 5 days a week would need around 70K a year in subsidies. Enough to buy a new BMW 5 series with tax, fuel and insurance. Every year. For every %&#ing passenger.

    However, maybe all is not lost, with 4 Fine Gael boys including the tee-shock himself in Mayo, we may well see this vital piece of infrastructure completed.


    On those numbers:

    1/ There is a recesssion, people just don't have the money or jobs. I am sure the numbers were based on pre-recession finances.

    2. I live beside a WRC station but never use it, its just too expensive, poorly marketed and antiquated ticketing system.

    Example 1, If I wanted to go to Bray from Gort, Irish rail throws up ridiculous prices, there is no access to the online €10 and €15 fares quoted from Limerick or Galway. With the high price of oil train travel should be more competitive.

    Example 2, family day to Galway or Dublin zoo, no option to buy reasonable priced tickets online.

    Its 2011, I want to go to a Ryanair style website, buy my tickets, the price of which fluctuates with supply and demand, I want to print out a boarding pass and thats it. Instead of this Irish Rail present me with a website which is a heap of sh1t.


  • #1489
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Let me rephrase this post after due consideration. I will retain the reason for the edit within, to be transparent.

    Failrail, Greenwashing, Railway fascism, locosexuality - call it what you may, it is a severe form of myopia in relation to the field of rail transport. When debating the merits of rail transport with others who have only a passing interest, it is wise to have logic on side.

    The world and his wife wants German standards, Cambodian prices with UAE taxes, but it will never happen. Nor should it, its not going to be a viable economy or society.

    Tilting trains - for example, are only useful at speeds above 110 kph (70 mph), and few routes in Ireland with the curvature and gradients justify the additional 30% expenditure in rolling stock for that.

    The risk is overstretching scarce resources at a time like this. This leads to providing a poor quality service over 80%-90% of the network, rather than investing these resources in 60-70% where there is potential for growth.

    Which is WHY.....enthusiasts lobbying can be detrimental. They won't be taken seriously, and can do grave harm to those proponents of viable projects.


  • #1490
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    CIE wrote: »
    Remember, there are only five trains a day each way between Limerick and Galway, which means only 925 possible seats per day (740 on Sundays) assuming a four-car train, and not all for travellers bound for the end points (we were over this already; there is a far, far higher average ridership per train than 18 passengers). .)

    The more I read your posts the more I think you must be an agent provacteur just coming on here to wind us all up, mildly entertaining is one way of looking at your arguments.

    Let's just state the facts again 5000 people per four weekly period are using the link bit between Athenry and Ennis, I think we can safely assume the majority (ie 99%) will be bound for either of the terminus stations. A four week period is 28 days, that's 280 trains up and down the line in four weeks, the average number of people using the through route then from Limerick/Galway/Limerick is with my simple knowledge of mathematics 5000/280 = 18 people per train. Now I will accept all the arguments that public transport has to be subvented, but the subvention must work for the greater good for th greater number. Subventing 18 rail passengers per train is simply unsustainable.

    The demand simply is not there. It never was, It probably never will be, and lets face it if any part of this line is going to succeed it will be between the two largest cities on the western seaboard, so what is the liklihood of these figures being any bigger on the now doomed phases 2 and 3? Who in their right mind is going to believe any kind of case for a line from Claremorris to Galway - if Limerick Galway isn't working?

    Had the 106 million on this line been spent on improving Galway - Athenry - Athlone - Dublin then we would have a better rail service for the west, Double tracking from Athlone to Galway and yes having a new station at Oranmore, or along that established route would have allowed commuter trains and express trains to work on the route. Or indeed money spent on improving the services Ennis- Limerick - Dublin yes this would have been money better spent for the west.

    Wake up face the facts. This project has turned out to be an interesting failure and shows what damage can be done when infrastructure planning is driven by local pressure groups and armchair economists.


  • #1491
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The figures I want to see are Ardrahan and Craughwell boardings, especially counterpeak, and the business case numbers for Crusheen.


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  • #1492
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The figures I want to see are Ardrahan and Craughwell boardings, especially counterpeak, and the business case numbers for Crusheen.

    Make an FOI request to the DOT it will cost €15. The FOI officer for the DOT is listed on the FOI website and the DOT website. If they have the information in an existing record (ie if a document exists showing this information) they should provide it, but there is an issue with the FOI Act that requested information has to exist in an existing record or document - DOT may have to request the information from Irish Rail - Irish Rail is not for some bizarre reason bound by the FOI act, so they may not provide it - if however - you write to your local TD or the Minister of Finance/Transport requesting the information and then the Minister requests the information from the department of Transport and in turn they make a ministerial request to Irish Rail - the record will be created and you can then ask for that under the FOI. Strange and convulated I know - but the wheels of Government work in mysterious ways. The other alternative is to carry out your own private survey - you might distort the passenger numbers in your sample though with inclusion of yourself.


  • #1493
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The figures I want to see are Ardrahan and Craughwell boardings, especially counterpeak, and the business case numbers for Crusheen.


    A part of me wonders if them two cow and sheep stations were purposely built to sabotage the project knowing they would get no passengers.


  • #1494
    glineli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The figures I want to see are Ardrahan and Craughwell boardings, especially counterpeak, and the business case numbers for Crusheen.

    Not much happening with the Crusheen stop at the moment, no planning gone in yet. Has there been a u turn? Has the funding from O Cuivs previous department been withdrawn?


  • #1495
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    wild handlin wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm worng...but yes! I thought WoT wanted to connect LIMERICK - GALWAY; not just Ennis-Atherny. As I've said before on here why do many of you discredit Limerick-Ennis as being the WRC, equally Atherny-Galway. They form the link between the two cities, Ennis-Athenry was the "missing link" if you like.
    Oh and no, I'm not connected with WoT or any other campaign for that matter.

    The point is this. Ennis-Limerick existed and was working quite well - Athenry on the mainline from Dublin to Limerick existed and was working quite well. The missing link was put in, not for the benefit of these pre-existing parts of the line but to fulfill some apparent latent demand (which has not transpired) for a rail link between the two cities - This is why usage of this part of the line - the part that was so heavily campaigned for is critical, because all "inter-city" CORRIDOR passengers must obviously use this part of the line. If the 106 million had been spent on the other two parts of the line - Ennis - Limerick and Athenry - Galway then services could have been improved and passenger numbers increased on those two parts of the line for probably a lot less than the re-opened line. For example double tracking or more more loops on the Athlone - Galway would allow for a stopping service and an express service to work on this line together. Allowing for example a slow service to Dublin from Galway and an express service that only stopped at say Athlone and one or two stations beyond. ~This would have benefitted Irish Rail and the Irish Rail users in the west a lot more.

    I look forward to reading the business case for phase 2 and phase 3 bearing in mind what was said by even Noel Dempsey when the WRC phase one line was opened in March last year - basically it was along the lines of - You have been whingeing about the need for this line for years, now show us how much you are going to use it before we even consider the next stage. - he may not have used this turn of phrase - but it was along these lines.

    Phase 2 and phase 3 are now history. Events, circumstances and common bloody sense have seen to that.


  • #1496
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    Westip,

    I'd argue WRC phase 1 could very well work, if IE had bothered to run it as Cork - Galway through service calling at Limerick with proper Intercity stock.

    Running it as a quasi commuter / intercity service is what is killing it.


  • #1497
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    runway16 wrote: »
    Westip,

    I'd argue WRC phase 1 could very well work, if IE had bothered to run it as Cork - Galway through service calling at Limerick with proper Intercity stock.

    Running it as a quasi commuter / intercity service is what is killing it.

    Possibly, but you have to take consideration of the nature of the "community based campaign" which wanted a stop at every halting platform - so that each campaign cell along the line got its very own new station. I still don't think the demographics stand up to support the intercity link though - we have to be realistic about the facts, we ain't got enough people to support cross country routes - its a simple fact of demographics.


  • #1498
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    Westtip, you indeed have some valid points about Phase 1 alright, (personally) I still think re-opening Limerick - Galway was a good idea providing that there were stations at Sixmilebridge, Ennis, Gort, Athernry and Oranmore. With competetive times VS. road, and of course quality trains to go with it. Stations at Craughwell (Park&Ride into Galway; before the M6 opened; but then again ya have to pay to use the car park ontop of the fare so who'd bother) Ardrahan and the proposed station at Crusheen baffle me; unless there is a commitment from the local population that 2/3rds are going to use the train every day.

    Tuam-Galway on the other hand I can see it being viable; providing there isn't: a slow speed (no reason why there should be, the line is virtually straight between Tuam and Athenry, and there's not 1 L/C on the line to the best of my knowledge), good connections at Athenry to Dublin and Limerick, competetive fares and free parking at Tuam, and well publicized. A fast journey from Tuam-Atherny-Oranmore-Galway is surely a competetive route-especially for the commuter market considering the sheer volume of people who commute from Tuam-Galway on a daily basis.


  • #1499
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    But only if the curve had of been turned to face Galway. This was the issue all along. It remained facing towards a priest in Mayo for political and trainspotter reasons. This is what really kills any Limerick-Galway IC "service".

    Tarquin and the Jesuits (good name for a band) killled the Corridor.


  • #1500
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you could have been proved right about Tuam but I think the Ennis to Athenry experiance will have killed any hope it might have had.

    I doubt if Cork to Galway by this route would have prospered as it is already possible to make that journey on exisitng lines (I dont know how the connections en route are, but it could be done via Dublin certainly) and reversals at Limerick and Athenry plus connections at Lim Junc would make it a tedious journey.

    As for rolling stock, I think the stock used now is as good as anything used in the UK on a comaprable line and is going to be upgraded to 22xxx stock idc.


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  • #1501
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Wild handlin

    I had a long post written about the challenges a Tuam service would face (platforms in Athenry, platforms in Galway, track saturation Athenry-Galway etc) but here's a short one instead: how would a rail company that lays CWR on the Nenagh branch and doesn't commission it for for months, and then when it starts to do so immediately slams SRs on adjoining bridges, commit to building 70mph on a branch line to realise the capabilities of the railcars deployed?

    My answer - not without a wholesale rooting out of management - something that would never happen because it's not in the Board's interest to have people in post who would refuse a project rather than do it half-assed.


This discussion has been closed.
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