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How to Use A Roundabout

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Comments

  • #652
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    J_R wrote: »
    Hi,

    In the past few days five (5) more people have voted to keep left.:eek::eek::eek:

    So, would any of the 189 please post a link to the PRESENT Rules of the Road where it says you should stay left when taking the 2nd exit.

    There is an OUT-DATED RoTR which explained how to negotiate a standard 4 exit roundabout where the exits were at 90, 180 degrees to each other, this accompanied with a simple diagram of this roundabout. (Perhaps that was the only type roundabout in Ireland at the time).

    Now, if a person was to superimpose that diagram on a diagram of a roundabout with exits at different angles and/or different number of exits, it just will not fit. Some exits may be covered, other exits will be sticking out all over the place.

    So, if the diagram will not fit, how can a person expect the wording to make sense.

    Would be like using a map of Cork to drive through Dublin


    I actually think it'd be a worthwhile exercise to delete all the votes so far and ask everyone to vote again. I'd be interesting to see how the voting goes now that all this discussion has taken place.

    Have any minds actually been changed??


  • #653
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    J_R wrote: »
    Hi,

    But they have made a start. They have published a NEW RoTR to replace the old thirty or forty year old book.

    Unfortunately the 190 people on here appear not to have read it, instead they are using the old book which only explained how to negotiate a 4 exit 90 etc etc.
    i think the big problem is that when someone who was taught the sequential method reads the current RoTR they still see something that they can easily misinterpret the same way by glancing over a few small details which are re-enforced to a certain extent by the new RSA advert that also just show the standard 4 exit 'cardinal' roundabout as an example.

    every single day that i drive on Irish roads i see several incidences of driving behaviour that would get people pulled over and ticketed in the UK, but seem to be standard practice here, either through lack of driver education or plain old ignorance, but with ireland's history of past driving test standards (driving licence giveaways and years of solo learners) its hardly surprising.

    roundabout etiqutte is only a small part of a much bigger problem and not nearly enough is being done to fix things and its costing lives.


  • #654
    Bigcheeze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Bigcheeze


    J_R wrote: »
    Hi,

    But they have made a start. They have published a NEW RoTR to replace the old thirty or forty year old book.

    Unfortunately the 190 people on here appear not to have read it, instead they are using the old book which only explained how to negotiate a 4 exit 90 etc etc.

    If they were to read the new explanation with an open mind there would be a lot less confusion. And for them to forget the numbering system which ONLY works on a 4 exit 90 etc etc etc etc.

    That forty year old explanation does NOT explain how to:-
    negotiate a 3 exit,
    a 4 exit where exits are not at 6, 9, 12 and 3
    a 5 exit
    a 6 exit or any other number

    AND also does not cover any roundabout where lanes merge and diverge and where there are dedicated lanes for specific destinations. It is impossible to give ANY overall rule for these roundabouts as they are far to many variations. Instead you follow the signage and lane markings

    The sequential method does work to navigate just about any roundabout format. In fact many of us believe that it's less ambiguous and less open to interpretation than an imaginary clock.

    Pubishing a new version of the rotr is a totally inadequate response to new rules or "interpretations" if you insist. Remember the publicity around speed changeover to kmh.


  • #655
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    -Chris- wrote: »
    I actually think it'd be a worthwhile exercise to delete all the votes so far and ask everyone to vote again. I'd be interesting to see how the voting goes now that all this discussion has taken place.

    Have     any minds actually been changed??

    I think you know the answer to that Chris. It would be interesting to see alright. Would it be possible to contact everyone that has voted and invite them to re-vote in a parallel thread.


  • #656
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Bigcheeze wrote: »
    The sequential method does work to navigate just about any roundabout format. In fact many of us believe that it's less ambiguous and less open to interpretation than an imaginary clock.

    Pubishing a new version of the rotr is a totally inadequate response to new rules or "interpretations" if you insist. Remember the publicity around speed changeover to kmh.
    Hi,
    So that I may understand please explain The sequential method which works on all roundabouts

    Just give two examples.

    Example 1.

    Roundabout with 3 exits

    1st exit at 12, 2nd at 3 (and 3rd of course at 6)

    If you can not understand the clock method then assume standard 4 exit with the 1st exit blanked off)

    Example 2.

    Roundabout with 6 exits, all exits equally spaced.

    Thank You

    Q. How would youi take the 2nd exit on each roundabout


  • #657
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    J_R wrote: »
    Hi,
    So that I may understand please explain The sequential method which works on all roundabouts

    I thought the one thing that had been agreed on this thread is that there are going to be exceptions in each method.


  • #658
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Slick50 wrote: »
    I thought the one thing that had been agreed on this thread is that there are going to be exceptions in each method.

    I understood that there are two types of roundabouts.

    1. Where you can use a standard explanation, for example, keep left for all exits before or at 12 O'Clock (or straighr ahead if you do not like 12 O'Clock), and go right for all exits after 12

    or


    2. Where lanes merge and diverge and where there are dedicated lanes. For these roundabouts there can be no "One size fits all" explanation. For these roundabouts the signage and lane markings rule. These markings signs override the basic rule.


    I understood that this thread was about the standard roundabout as no simple rule/explanation can cover the 2nd type


  • #659
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    J_R wrote: »
    I understood that there are two types of roundabouts.

    1. Where you can use a standard explanation, that is keep left for all exits before or at 12 O'Clock (or straighr ahead if you do not like 12 O'Clock), and go right for all exits after 12

    or


    2. Where lanes merge and diverge and where there are dedicated lanes. For these roundabouts there can be no "One size fits all" explanation. For these roundabouts the signage and lane markings rule. These markings signs override the basic rule.


    I understood that this thread was about the standard roundabout as no simple rule/explanation can cover the 2nd type

    So why did you ask..
    J_R wrote:
    So that I may understand please explain The sequential method which works on all roundabouts


  • #660
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Slick50 wrote: »
    So why did you ask..

    Read Bigcheeze post


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  • #661
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    J_R wrote: »
    Read Bigcheeze post

    This one?...
    Bigcheeze wrote:
    The sequential method does work to navigate just about any roundabout format. In fact many of us believe that it's less ambiguous and less open to interpretation than an imaginary clock.


  • #662
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Slick50 wrote: »
    This one?...

    Yes

    I want him to explain the sequential system (?) that would allow him to safely navigate the two roundabouts. (And obey the basic rules of the road)

    One roundabout has the 2nd exit on the right, the second is on the left.

    He said navigate just about any roundabout format


    Simple question, awaiting answer


  • #663
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Hi

    Bigcheeze, so that there can be no misunderstanding, to clarify my question further, please see diagrams.


    sketch1.png

    sketch3.png

    Please explain this sequential system.

    You enter red arrow and exit black arrow

    Which lane do you enter and use each time.


  • #664
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Hi,

    And again 3rd exit this time.


    You enter red arrow and exit black arrow

    Which lane do you enter and use each time.

    sketch4.png

    sketch5.png


  • #665
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    I was told by a driving instructor to use the 12 O'Clock method. I think the diagram illustrates the problem with counting exist perfectly. Also, if you're driving in a new area and come across a roundabout with for e.g. 6 or 7 exits, I think studying a road sign long enough to work out which number you are could be downright dangerous. Too much time with eyes off the road.


  • #666
    Vertakill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    J.R, do you REALLY need it explained or are you just being pedantic?

    One of the benefits of the 'sequential method' was that it's incredibly cut and dry.

    First 2 exits, left lane.
    Any subsequent exit, right lane.

    There, done.


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  • #667
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Right


  • #668
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    i think on of the problems with the use of the sequential method is that it leaves potential for an uneven build-up of traffic on busy roundabouts with lots of exits.

    once roundabouts reach a certain size, the sequential method becomes increasingly ineffective, whereas the clocks method can be expanded as large as it needs to, particularly on busy roundabouts.


  • #669
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Vertakill wrote: »
    J.R, do you REALLY need it explained or are you just being pedantic?

    One of the benefits of the 'sequential method' was that it's incredibly cut and dry.

    First 2 exits, left lane.
    Any subsequent exit, right lane.

    There, done.
    and
    LordSutch wrote: »
    Right

    Are you serious ?

    So 3rd exit right lane. That should be fun


  • #670
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Vertakill wrote: »
    J.R, do you REALLY need it explained or are you just being pedantic?

    One of the benefits of the 'sequential method' was that it's incredibly cut and dry.

    First 2 exits, left lane.
    Any subsequent exit, right lane.

    There, done.

    Nonsesne.
    Any exit after straight on, right lane.
    There, done.


  • #671
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    Vertakill wrote: »
    J.R, do you REALLY need it explained or are you just being pedantic?

    One of the benefits of the 'sequential method' was that it's incredibly cut and dry.

    First 2 exits, left lane.
    Any subsequent exit, right lane.

    There, done.

    Except for the fact that on a 7 exit roundabout, you have 4 exits worth of traffic on the inside, the more difficult place to be as they all have to find space to get out again in time for their exit.


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  • #672
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    whydoibother? wrote: »
    Except for the fact that on a 7 exit roundabout, you have 4 exits worth of traffic on the inside, the more difficult place to be as they all have to find space to get out again in time for their exit.

    Whereas the other way you have to try and figure out a clock with 7 exits? I know which one I'd take. How you are supposed to use the clock method on a roundabout you have never used or seen before defies belief.


  • #673
    Vertakill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    J_R wrote: »
    Are you serious ?

    Firstly, you can hardly use LordSutch's reply against me. We've no idea what he's even referring to (your question, or the OP)... so yeah, my point still stands. It's very cut and dry (provided you're not LordSutch).
    J_R wrote: »
    So 3rd exit right lane. That should be fun

    Anyways, you asked a question that's been answered dozens of times throughout this entire ridiculously long thread. I didn't invent it, I'm just explaining the incredibly easy to follow rule to you.

    It's annoying when a huge portion of the posts in here debating which is better or worse could've been avoided if everyone actually understood BOTH methods.
    Instead, it's much easier to delve into your memory of people cutting you up on roundabouts an associate every incident with the idea that all those drivers must've been using the 'sequential method'. (That last paragraph was not aimed at you JR).
    whydoibother? wrote: »
    Except for the fact that on a 7 exit roundabout, you have 4 exits worth of traffic on the inside, the more difficult place to be as they all have to find space to get out again in time for their exit.

    The problem when people visualise the sequential method is that they're trying to visualise it working concurrently with the RotR method. That's the wrong idea.

    If everyone used the sequential method, there is actually less of an issue leaving a roundabout than there is with the RotR method because the people in the left lane are only taking the 1st or 2nd exit, the rest of the traffic is using the right hand lane.

    The RotR method could involve the majority of the traffic using the left hand lane for taking the 4th or 5th exits, thus bypassing the first few exits whilst the people that've joined the roundabout from the right hand lane struggle to exit because of all the traffic in the left lane.
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Nonsesne.
    Any exit after straight on, right lane.
    There, done.

    I was responding to a question JR posed for Bigcheeze, not claiming which is better/worse/indifferent. So read a few posts up yea?


  • #674
    perry stanley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭perry stanley


    Hey chaps , its a uk roundabout. Uk driving rules apply. And don't try some (alot) of those excuses with the South Wales Police. I know :o


  • #675
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    whiterebel wrote: »
    Whereas the other way you have to try and figure out a clock with 7 exits? I know which one I'd take. How you are supposed to use the clock method on a roundabout you have never used or seen before defies belief.

    All you have to do for the clock method is look straight ahead.
    Any exit before straight ahead=left lane
    Any exit after straight ahead=right lane
    If you are capable of looking straight ahead you have figured out the clock method.
    Unless someone got kicked in the head by a mule and now one eye looks towards London and the other towards Rio I don't see how anyone with an IQ above 60 couldn't figure this one out.


  • #676
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    All you have to do for the clock method is look straight ahead.
    Any exit before straight ahead=left lane
    Any exit after straight ahead=right lane
    If you are capable of looking straight ahead you have figured out the clock method.
    Unless someone got kicked in the head by a mule and now one eye looks towards London and the other towards Rio I don't see how anyone with an IQ above 60 couldn't figure this one out.

    Hi,

    Simple. Also remember that there is a large sign on approach with a drawing of the roundabout.

    I suspect some of the posters on here got hit on the head by a large clock when children, consequently have ended up with a hugh complex regarding clock faces..


  • #677
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    whiterebel wrote: »
    Whereas the other way you have to try and figure out a clock with 7 exits? I know which one I'd take. How you are supposed to use the clock method on a roundabout you have never used or seen before defies belief.

    What do you mean "try and figure out a clock"? The clock method is the easiest thing in the world whether you've seen the thing before or not. All you do is look straight ahead and decide whether your ultimate destination is to the right of that point or not.


  • #678
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Slick50 wrote: »
    I think you know the answer to that Chris. It would be interesting to see alright. Would it be possible to contact everyone that has voted and invite them to re-vote in a parallel thread.

    Done!


    Re-Vote thread here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056186308

    Do your worst, people!!! :D


  • #679
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Done!


    Re-Vote thread here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056186308

    Do your worst, people!!! :D

    Don't know if that was brave or insane, but should be interesting, cheers.
    Whatever about roundabouts, it seems to be much more difficult to get off a thread around here. The arguements have definitely done a few full revolutions though, and coming around again. Check mirrors, indicate.....


  • #680
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    J_R wrote: »
    and

    Are you serious ?

    So 3rd exit right lane. That should be fun

    1st Exit Left lane, 2nd Exit Left lane, 3rd Exit from the right hand lane, easy!

    Its just basic common sense really, simples ;)


  • #681
    bazzachazza
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭bazzachazza


    Great thread just proves how many people in this country are poorly educated when it comes to driving. Also proves how many people THINK they are in the right when it comes to driving and are not just doing it to get ahead of the pack.

    I'm sure similar could be said for Right lane and middle lane drivers etc etc etc etc.

    I give up with the drivers of this country there is no "quick" fix i.e. advertising. The long term solution is enforcement and I see no evidence of the Gardai being interested in doing this.

    I voted Right and Re-voted Right.


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  • #682
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    All you have to do for the clock method is look straight ahead.
    Any exit before straight ahead=left lane
    Any exit after straight ahead=right lane
    If you are capable of looking straight ahead you have figured out the clock method.
    Unless someone got kicked in the head by a mule and now one eye looks towards London and the other towards Rio I don't see how anyone with an IQ above 60 couldn't figure this one out.

    You're making a huge assumption which suggests to me you went a bit close to the mule yourself ; that there isn't a big hump, signpost, flowerbed or whatever in the middle of the roundabout. Also, the amount of perfectly aligned 180 degree roads on roundabouts seem to be in the minority.

    If you are capable of counting past two you should be able to use the other method properly.


  • #683
    101sean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭101sean


    Decided to look in on this thread after ignoring it for ages, read first and last two pages (can't be arsed to read the rest:o) and can't believe how worked boardsies get worked up about it. Can't vote 'cos the right answer isn't there :D

    It's a UK roundabout, you use either lane, check mirrors, signal, watch for muppets wandering across both lanes and filter in. It's a two lane approach and the exit is wide enough for two with arrows on the road indicating it's dropping to one. I'd do the same here but be very aware that many drivers here haven't a clue when it comes to roundabouts. Most of my driving life has been in the UK and I drove hundreds of roundabouts like that.

    Increasingly on busy UK roundabouts there are signs indicating well in advance which lane to use as many UK drivers also no longer seem to have any common sense. They also have spiral road makings on some of the biggest but I think that confuses matters.


  • #684
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    The first roundabout at Longford, heading towards Sligo is like this.

    Either lane is ok, but the left lane is better than the right, and in the case of battle the left lane has right of way.


  • #685
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    J_R wrote: »
    I suspect some of the posters on here got hit on the head by a large clock when children, consequently have ended up with a hugh complex regarding clock faces..


    Har har. Thing is, they probably didn't get hit by, or on, a roundabout. Nor have they been hit over the head with a copy of the current (ambiguous) RoTR.



    bazzachazza wrote: »
    Great thread just proves how many people in this country are poorly educated when it comes to driving. Also proves how many people THINK they are in the right when it comes to driving and are not just doing it to get ahead of the pack.

    I'm sure similar could be said for Right lane and middle lane drivers etc etc etc etc.

    I give up with the drivers of this country there is no "quick" fix i.e. advertising. The long term solution is enforcement and I see no evidence of the Gardai being interested in doing this.

    I voted Right and Re-voted Right.


    For the record, I originally voted Left and have just re-voted Right. In fact, following this thread has led me to change my method and I now use the straightforward and intuitive 12 o'clock rule of thumb. This changes nothing on the standard 4-arm cruciform roundabout, but on some others (such as this one) I am now in the right lane to take a right turn after 12 o'clock as opposed to being in the left lane to take the second exit.

    It hasn't made much difference so far. The changeover was easy, but then I always take great care on roundabouts and I don't necessarily encounter the trickiest situations day to day.

    However, I did have someone sneak up on my left here while travelling from the dual carriageway left of picture to dual carriageway bottom right, despite there being signage and lane markings to indicate the correct lane in addition to the allegedly standard 12 o'clock 'rule'.

    Also for the record, with regard to enforcement I emailed two named Garda Inspectors in the Traffic Corps (CCing two generic AGS Traffic email addresses) on Feb 3 about this. I received an acknowledgement on Feb 8 and have heard nothing since despite emailing again to remind them. I'll wait a while longer, but while waiting I find it hard not to concur with the view that there is little evidence of AGS having any interest in this issue.

    The question, though, is enforcement of what? The RoTR guidelines are ambiguous and incomplete, and there is at least one anecdotal report in this thread of AGS pulling someone for taking a lane indicated by the clock method. You will also find alleged instances on Boards of Garda vehicles being driven in an irregular manner on roundabouts in non-emergency situations. There's more to being "poorly educated" than individual driver behaviour.





    .


  • #686
    raveydavey
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭raveydavey


    Left hand lane. Do you have a drivers licence? I hope not if you're saying right.
    Theres a book you can get to help. Its called THE RULES OF THE ROAD. I advise you to read it. And watch the ad's on tv too, where the RSA explain how to use roundabouts. If you crashed in to a car while coming off r/about and you were in right lane and he was in left lane, you'd be held to blame.


  • #687
    Senna
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    raveydavey wrote: »
    If you crashed in to a car while coming off r/about and you were in right lane and he was in left lane, you'd be held to blame.

    You don't cut from the right lane straight out to an exit, thats would be stupid. Using your philosophy, you would never be in the right lane, as if you have an accident, your always in the wrong lane:rolleyes:

    From the sounds of it, you (not all poster saying left, just you) think the left lane is correct because you don't know how to use mirrors, signal, manoeuvre.


  • #688
    J_R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭J_R


    Vertakill wrote: »
    J.R, do you REALLY need it explained or are you just being pedantic?

    One of the benefits of the 'sequential method' was that it's incredibly cut and dry.

    First 2 exits, left lane.
    Any subsequent exit, right lane.

    There, done.
    LordSutch wrote: »
    1st Exit Left lane, 2nd Exit Left lane, 3rd Exit from the right hand lane, easy!

    Its just basic common sense really, simples ;)
    Hi,

    OK so the last roundabout
    sketch5.png
    On approach, Mirrors, blind spot check, indicate, move to right hand lane , then after passing 2nd exit, mirrors blins spot check indicate and move over exit in 3rd exit.

    NOW, suppose down the road a mile or two there is an almost identical roundabout but this one has one less exit. The "First" exit is missing.
    sketch7.png

    This time you want to take the 2nd exit and using the sequential method you simply stay left and exit.

    Both times you are taking the exit at the same position on the roundabout but using two complete different routes.

    Can you not see how idiotic the route the sequential method (?) makes you take in the first instance.

    To finish, there is no such animal as a sequential system or method. What all you "lefties" appear to be quoting is an EXPLANATION on how to negotiate a perfect 4 exit roundabout with exits at 90 degs etc


  • #689
    pippip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭pippip


    raveydavey wrote: »
    Left hand lane. Do you have a drivers licence? I hope not if you're saying right.
    Theres a book you can get to help. Its called THE RULES OF THE ROAD. I advise you to read it. And watch the ad's on tv too, where the RSA explain how to use roundabouts. If you crashed in to a car while coming off r/about and you were in right lane and he was in left lane, you'd be held to blame.

    The Irish rules of the road state left lane for STRAIGHT ahead or left exit, which part of the 80degree right turn on the op roundabout do you consider to be straight?


  • #690
    Vertakill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    I'm doing my very best not to sound like a total pr!ck here..

    J_R, it's clear you've joined this thread late as you're posing questions and scenarios that've been answered several times over.
    J_R wrote: »
    Can you not see how idiotic the route the sequential method (?) makes you take in the first instance.

    No.. the point of it is that you REDUCE the amount of opportunities that you can cut up others, or be cut up by others.... based on the fact that the maximum number of exits that you can pass by in the left hand lane is 1. It's not a perfect method for every roundabout by any means, but either is the current RotR method.
    However, I still reckon it's safer than the RotR method (but I do use the RotR method now).

    Using the RotR method, depending on how big the roundabout is, you could literally pass by 5 or 6 exits in the left hand lane (Champs-Élysées) and not take any of them, which makes life VERY difficult for the drivers that are on the inside lane on the roundabout. This is how you cut people off.

    Anyways, the debate about this has been over about 5 pages ago. We've come to the conclusion that the RSA have not done enough to educate road users on correct roundabout usage or the subsequent changes that they've made, but failed to advertise properly.
    J_R wrote: »
    To finish, there is no such animal as a sequential system or method. What all you "lefties" appear to be quoting is an EXPLANATION on how to negotiate a perfect 4 exit roundabout with exits at 90 degs etc

    Well, according to the RSA in 2006'ish, this was the preferred method. Also, many driving instructors who've started up business around this time are STILL teaching this method to road users to this day. This is clear by the number of Irish driving instructor websites that are still quoting the old 'sequential method' (there's a list of all of them posted in this thread somewhere).
    But if you had read any of this thread, you would've known that.

    Also, you refer to users of the 'sequential method' as 'lefties', which is ironic, considering people using said method are the people who would actually be using the right hand lane more often than most road users.


    It's the people that overuse the left hand lane that cause the incidents on roundabout, not the people in the right/inner lane. And the RotR method clearly underuses the right hand lane... so make up your own conclusions.

    I'm beyond the point of defending one method or another, but at least understand both methods and the merits of each before you try and discredit one.

    The issue now is to identify the problem which the RSA has caused and address it. Unfortunately the RSA have stated that they don't see this as a problem, so a resolution is unlikely.


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  • #691
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    J_R wrote: »
    To finish, there is no such animal as a sequential system or method. What all you "lefties" appear to be quoting is an EXPLANATION on how to negotiate a perfect 4 exit roundabout with exits at 90 degs etc



    The very same can be said of the Clock method.

    The point is -- and I am getting RSI trying to explain this -- the RoTR does not provide a satisfactory, clear and unified approach for all drivers and all roundabouts.

    This thread started off here, went through some other roundabouts like this one, and is currently stuck going round and round on something like this!


  • #692
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Vertakill wrote: »
    Well, according to the RSA in 2006'ish, this was the preferred method. Also, many driving instructors who've started up business around this time are STILL teaching this method to road users to this day. This is clear by the number of Irish driving instructor websites that are still quoting the old 'sequential method' (there's a list of all of them posted in this thread somewhere).
    But if you had read any of this thread, you would've known that.

    Also, you refer to users of the 'sequential method' as 'lefties', which is ironic, considering people using said method are the people who would actually be using the right hand lane more often than most road users.



    I think it may be incorrect to assume that the sequential method is still being taught, on the basis that there are a few websites out there still referring to it.

    Those websites may be out of date, for example, or may represent only a very tiny minority of driving schools.

    The problem may be more a combination of (1) a large cohort of motorists being used to older guidelines and (2) a defective RoTR not 'repealing' the old method properly.

    Remember that we have already had one instance quoted in this thread of an ex-Garda driver with advanced motoring qualifications concurring with the view that the RoTR guidelines are flawed.


  • #693
    Vertakill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Vertakill


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I think it may be incorrect to assume that the sequential method is still being taught, on the basis that there are a few websites out there still referring to it.

    Those websites may be out of date, for example, or may represent only a very tiny minority of driving schools.

    Ok that's possibly true. I learned about 5 years ago to drive by a local driving instructor and he taught me the sequential method. One of my mate's gf is now learning to drive now from the same driving instructor so I'll see if anything has changed on the roundabout front.


  • #694
    pippip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭pippip


    I did my test about 5yrs ago and the instructor explained it as a clock face and anything past 1oclock position is a right hand turn....indicate right and right hand lane. Very simple and never had a problem with it.

    Amazing the amount of roundabouts that have lane markings using the left hand lane as left exit only and the right hand lane for straight ahead and nobody paying attention and cutting people off.


  • #695
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The point is -- and I am getting RSI trying to explain this -- the RoTR does not provide a satisfactory, clear and unified approach for all drivers and all roundabouts.

    You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

    Nobody would read the current RotR and dream up the sequential method. There is no longer anything in there to support the "first, second, later exits" idea.

    The only issue is that people who learned the sequential method will not find a statement in the RotR saying "The sequential method was wrong, don't use it".


  • #696
    zynaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭zynaps


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Nonsesne.
    Any exit after straight on, right lane.
    There, done.
    No, that's the clock method. He was explaining the sequential method, as requested.
    Vertakill wrote: »
    It's the people that overuse the left hand lane that cause the incidents on roundabout, not the people in the right/inner lane. And the RotR method clearly underuses the right hand lane... so make up your own conclusions.
    This is the interesting bit IMO. For big roundabouts with a number of exits on the left, you won't risk cutting off so many people by passing them in the inside right lane with the sequential method. On the other hand, you will have to change lanes to exit, and you can certainly cut someone off then.

    So I suppose a simulated model would be needed to get any insight into which method, in situations where they produce different results, is safer.


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  • #697
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

    Nobody would read the current RotR and dream up the sequential method. There is no longer anything in there to support the "first, second, later exits" idea.

    The only issue is that people who learned the sequential method will not find a statement in the RotR saying "The sequential method was wrong, don't use it".



    Semantics!! :)

    I think you'll find there is some agreement in this thread and IRL that the RoTR is flawed. For example, I've already quoted a senior person in the Advanced Driving world to that effect. Also the RSA were unable to advise regarding the OP's roundabout without mentioning 12 o'clock, which, as has been pointed out here over and over again, is not mentioned good bad or indifferent in the RoTR.

    It's not a question of anyone looking at the current RoTR and "dreaming up" the sequential method after the revised rules appeared in 2006. It's a case of Sequentialists looking at the revised RoTR and not seeing anything that contradicts their (now erroneous) method. The sequential method was not "wrong" when it was in widespread use. It is now "wrong" because it has been superseded. The problem is that the RoTR is ambiguous enough so as to allow the sequential method to co-exist. Read this thread fully!!!

    I can't remember whether you commented on the RSA's response, so I'll ask you directly here: if the RoTR is all that's needed to explain how to navigate the OP's roundabout, why did the RSA feel the need to invoke the Clock method?




    .


  • #698
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    if the RoTR is all that's needed to explain how to navigate the OP's roundabout, why did the RSA feel the need to invoke the Clock method?

    If you ask the RSA to explain the RotR in relation to roundabouts, it would not be helpful if they just copy-pasted an answer from the Rules: you've already read those. They should come up with an explanation which expands on the rules and how to apply them.

    Personally, I don't like the 12 o'clock language, but evidently some people find it useful.


  • #699
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If you ask the RSA to explain the RotR in relation to roundabouts, it would not be helpful if they just copy-pasted an answer from the Rules: you've already read those. They should come up with an explanation which expands on the rules and how to apply them.

    Personally, I don't like the 12 o'clock language, but evidently some people find it useful.


    Incorrect.

    It's the reliability/validity of the RoTR which is in question.

    If I ask the RSA to detail how the OP's roundabout should be navigated, with specific reference to the RoTR, then that's what they should give me.

    If the RSA's response relies on guidelines not published in the RoTR, then IMO that is a strong indication that the RSA itself does not rely on the RoTR.

    If the RoTR cannot be relied on to give clear and comprehensive guidelines regarding the use of roundabouts, then what are motorists using the older 'rules' supposed to rely on?




    .


  • #700
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If I ask the RSA to detail how the OP's roundabout should be navigated, with specific reference to the RoTR, then that's what they should give me.

    Would you really be happy if they just copy-pasted the "straight ahead" and "later exits" chunk of the RotR as an answer?

    They know you've read them, but for some reason you didn't understand them. So they expanded on them in their answer.


  • #701
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Would you really be happy if they just copy-pasted the "straight ahead" and "later exits" chunk of the RotR as an answer?

    They know you've read them, but for some reason you didn't understand them. So they expanded on them in their answer.



    1. That's not what I asked them to do. Reason: the RoTR is what's at issue (see multiple posts passim), not any 'expansion'.

    2. Tell you what, since you insist on framing this issue as if I (and some other posters) are just being stupid/obtuse, let us know if you are willing to contact the independent Advanced Driving expert I mentioned earlier in the thread, in order to get his professional perspective on the matter.

    If so, I will PM you his contact details, on the proviso that you will (a) faithfully report back what you discussed and (b) do not name or otherwise identify him on Boards.

    Deal? If not, I'll conclude that you are being obtuse! :cool:


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