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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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    #152
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Well that's one way to admit that you can't argue for Irish to be compulsory in schools I guess.
    1. Appeal to the rest of the board (because you have been roundly defeated when you address someone)
    2. Say he has no argument (but don't explain at all why)
    3. Say he thinks X, Y and Z (when he has never posted a single thing like that and you won't back it up with any quotes)

    and finally, the best one...

    4. Call him a troll (because maybe the mods will take pity on you).

    All so lost-internet-argument-101, isn't it?

    Maith thú, you won, here's something for you
    http://www.jonburgerman.com/images/uploads/BP11badge.jpg


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    #153
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    More guff. If you can show where I said I "hate" Irish then please do.
    Of course you won't.
    You could perhaps try to quote me deliberately out of context, like Meehan did? That "worked" for him?
    I don't need to show where you use the word "hate" - most of your posts are just a diatribe full of hate; that fact that you avoid the word doesn't remove the hate.
    The point entirely eludes you yet again.
    A tiny percentage of these children will speak Irish when they leave school. It is a complete waste of their time learning it as later in life it will be useless to them plus they will have not the slightest interest in it.
    As I said, if Irish was a real election issue, Sinn Fein would be in power.
    The point doesn't at all elude me, as I know what I am talking about. I have been involved in language issues here and abroad for many years. And that on the practical and the theoretical levels.
    Gaelscoileanna started to take off in the late 60s & early seventies. The children of those who attended the early Gaelscoileanna are now sending their children preferentially to Gaelscoileanna (and yes, I am aware there are exceptions). Some of them speak Irish at home on a full-time basis, some on a part-time basis. Irish is a normal part of life for these second-generation gaelscoil kids.
    In another generation's time, this will have spread to maybe 10%, maybe 15% of kids around the country; while maybe a total of 25-30% of kids overall will be attending Gaelscoileanna. This is the trend, this is the way things are going in this country. A change of government may slow the process down or speed it up by 5 of 10 years one way or the other, but the trend is obvious.
    Like it or not.


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    #154
    kdowling
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭kdowling


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Most people want reform 1st then see how it goes from there, if students learn how to 'speak' it they'll use it

    I agree reform is certainly needed, my example of the irish lads who could string a sentence together demonstrated that, but having said that the teaching of irish should be reformed for those who wish to learn it.

    FOrcing people to learn irish is just crazy. I don't think it will kill the language to have it optional, most people who speak irish nowadays were taught from irish being spoken in the home and this will continue for those who still wish to speak it.


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    #155
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    More guff. If you can show where I said I "hate" Irish then please do.
    Of course you won't.
    You could perhaps try to quote me deliberately out of context, like Meehan did? That "worked" for him?

    I am, in fact, female. And other people have pointed out that you have no argument, and that you are, in face, bigoted.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The point entirely eludes you yet again.
    A tiny percentage of these children will speak Irish when they leave school. It is a complete waste of their time learning it as later in life it will be useless to them plus they will have not the slightest interest in it.
    As I said, if Irish was a real election issue, Sinn Fein would be in power.

    Do you have first evidence of this? My boyfriend when to a Gaelscoil, and then a Gaelcholáiste, and is perfectly fluent. He speaks Irish to all his friends whom he went to school with, and a huge amount of them took Irish as part of their college courses, such as Commerce and Irish, or Law and Irish etc.


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    #156
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    kdowling wrote: »
    I agree reform is certainly needed, my example of the irish lads who could string a sentence together demonstrated that, but having said that the teaching of irish should be reformed for those who wish to learn it.

    FOrcing people to learn irish is just crazy. I don't think it will kill the language to have it optional, most people who speak irish nowadays were taught from irish being spoken in the home and this will continue for those who still wish to speak it.

    If it is made optional before it is reformed, it will suffer, the whole points race for college needs to go aswell


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    #157
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Great example of where you completely manipulated my words.
    Nope. You said people were less Irish if they couldn't speak Irish. Look, here.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language.
    You *are* saying somebody is less Irish if they cannot speak Irish.
    No misquote.
    No twisting.
    No misinterpretation.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Someone else implying that you were indeed changing things to suit yourself.
    Yes, I proved him wrong too.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    The number of jobs this person listed which Irish is necessary for is irrelevant, you only asked for specific jobs. They gave you the answer, and you decided since you couldn't really contest against the cold, hard facts, you would turn it on its head, and say "oh that's not enough examples to merit its worth."
    You're absolutely right there. The number of private sector jobs he could come up with was utterly pathetic, and was a great help in proving that Irish is worthless as an aid in getting a job.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Sweeping generalisations regarding whether people want or don't want to speak Irish is ridiculous. You cannot speak on behalf of all those people and say they simply don't want to use the language. I always hear people saying that they would love to be able to speak it. ALWAYS - no exageration.
    Unfortunately, the facts as provided say that people can speak Irish but the do not speak Irish.
    This is pretty poor proof that they love Irish TBH.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Those people are simply paid to take care of the students who go there during the summer, they are not actually paid to speak the language. That's like saying we're paid to speak English; it's ludicrous. The language is truly alive in these parts of the country.
    If Irish wasn't compulsory then how many would go to the Gaeltacht for the summer? Please don't make me laugh and say they all would.
    And don't just take my word for it.

    http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/fg-denies-policy-poses-threat-to-gaeltacht/
    However, the party’s Connemara candidate Cllr Seán Kyne has stressed that there will be “no change” in the compulsory nature of the subject until a full consultation has been carried out with affected stakeholders, including Irish language groups, mná na tithe, teachers’ groups and Gaeltacht residents.

    The local coucillor says removing compulsort Irish will affect summer visiting students.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Again, NOT TRUE.
    So if I pay 100 people to speak Klingon, it is now a living, breathing language?
    Oh please.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Anyone can go to school, sit in a class, and choose not to learn what is being taught to them. This applies to all subjects, not just Irish.
    But they can't choose to pass their leaving certs because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
    But they can't choose to go to university because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
    Some choice you're giving people there.


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    #158
    kdowling
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭kdowling


    the issue here should not be how many people speak irish.
    saying, oh i spoke irish to my friend last week or my boyfriend speaks irish to his school friends, is irrelevant. great, good for you. But what has that got to do with making people speak irish who
    a) don't want to learn it and
    b) have no intention of ever speaking it?
    You can still have your gaelscoileanna and speak irish to your friends when you meet them and let the people who have no intention of speaking irish when they meet their friends learn something more productive with their time.


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    #159
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I didn't want to have to post this, but your ranting has left me with very little choice:
    I don't care if you post that. Honestly.
    Just more proof you won't argue the issue because you can't.
    (it's about 100 years old BTW)


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    #160
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »

    But they can't choose to pass their leaving certs because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
    But they can't choose to go to university because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
    Some choice you're giving people there.

    I failed Irish and i still went to college


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    #161
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    I don't need to show where you use the word "hate" - most of your posts are just a diatribe full of hate; that fact that you avoid the word doesn't remove the hate.
    I don't need to show you where you said that the sky is orange and the moon is made of cheese. It's obvious from your posts isn't it, so I don't even have to pretend to be able to back up my claim?:rolleyes:


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    #162
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I am, in fact, female. And other people have pointed out that you have no argument, and that you are, in face, bigoted.
    Who are you, Joan Burton? I couldn't care less whether you're male or female. Another irrelevance.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Do you have first evidence of this? My boyfriend when to a Gaelscoil, and then a Gaelcholáiste, and is perfectly fluent. He speaks Irish to all his friends whom he went to school with, and a huge amount of them took Irish as part of their college courses, such as Commerce and Irish, or Law and Irish etc.
    Get a dictionary.
    Look up "anecdote".
    If it say "equals data" then get back to me with this heartwarming personal story.
    I've already posted the "evidence" *twice*. I'm not particularly surprised you missed it, truth be told.
    A tiny percentage of those who can speak Irish do so with any regularity.


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    #163
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    kdowling wrote: »
    the issue here should not be how many people speak irish.
    saying, oh i spoke irish to my friend last week or my boyfriend speaks irish to his school friends, is irrelevant. great, good for you. But what has that got to do with making people speak irish who
    a) don't want to learn it and
    b) have no intention of ever speaking it?
    You can still have your gaelscoileanna and speak irish to your friends when you meet them and let the people who have no intention of speaking irish when they meet their friends learn something more productive with their time.


    What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.

    Everyone agrees that reform of the educational sysem is needed to inspire enthusiasm in people when it comes to speaking it amongst themselves.


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    #164
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    I failed Irish and i still went to college
    Well excuse me if I ignore your evasive post.
    Did you pass your leaving cert and go to an Irish university without an exemption from Irish?
    Otherwise your line is pointless. Failing Irish does curtail your options for no intelligible reason.


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    #165
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.
    I've been asked to provide evidence of my claims.
    Can you do likewise?


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    #166
    niallo76
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭niallo76


    i think it would be a shame if people didn't want to learn their own language,irrespective if they are going to use it or not-if you learnt french or Spanish in school how often do you use this language?
    I think Irish people have a big hang up about the language because of the way it was taught in school-it was forced upon you and if you fell behind that's tough-in my experience the teachers that taught me just didn't care enough-it was just learn a poem by heart,do your exams,try and scrape through the oral exam etc.,
    a lot of people i know seem to simply HATE the Irish language,and would pour scorn on the idea of keeping it alive-(using the same arguments-sure when do you use it,it;s a dead language,you will never use it again etc)same can be said about most subjects you do in your exams in school(vectors,algebra,line geometry,ordnance survey,how to dissect a frog for chrissakes)

    Jesus it's the only thing we have got that is ours anymore-what are we going to say to people from every other country in Europe if the discussion comes up about language-'ah,sure we couldn't be bothered learning our own'

    i just think it is a sad day when our national language is being bandied about so flippantly as a promise to the voters of fine Gael that it will not be made compulsory after Junior Cert level-

    sure we have loads of stuff that makes us unique to the rest of the world after all,lets lose the language also


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    #167
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Who are you, Joan Burton? I couldn't care less whether you're male or female. Another irrelevance.

    Get a dictionary.
    Look up "anecdote".
    If it say "equals data" then get back to me with this heartwarming personal story.
    I've already posted the "evidence" *twice*. I'm not particularly surprised you missed it, truth be told.

    1.Just pointing out the fact that I'm a girl, because well, I am, and I wasn't bringing it into the argument. It was just an innocent observation.
    2.Just a relevant example, not a "heartwarming" anecdote.
    3."I'm not particularly surprised you missed it" - completely unneccesary personal swipe at me and my intelligence.


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    #168
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I've been asked to provide evidence of my claims.
    Can you do likewise?

    What evidence are you looking for?


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    #169
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Well excuse me if I ignore your evasive post.
    Did you pass your leaving cert and go to an Irish university without an exemption from Irish?
    Otherwise your line is pointless. Failing Irish does curtail your options for no intelligible reason.

    Can you name the universities where you need Irish for a place, i can name 2 do you know anymore.

    And that's not really the languages fault now is it


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    #170
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    1.Just pointing out the fact that I'm a girl, because well, I am, and I wasn't bringing it into the argument. It was just an innocent observation.
    2.Just a relevant example, not a "heartwarming" anecdote.
    3."I'm not particularly surprised you missed it" - completely unneccesary personal swipe at me and my intelligence.
    1. If I told you I was male, would that be relevant? No.
    2. Example = anecdote ≠ data. Still applies.
    3. And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the data I presented and moan about a "personal swipe" instead.


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    #171
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    What evidence are you looking for?
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.
    Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?


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    #172
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?

    I think its 2 or 3


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    #173
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Can you name the universities where you need Irish for a place, i can name 2 do you know anymore.
    http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp
    Subjects required for matriculation
    For entry to all degrees, English, Irish, and four other subjects in the Leaving Certificate (GCE/GCSE or other acceptable qualification) are required.
    Crosáidí wrote: »
    And that's not really the languages fault now is it
    And straight back to strawman mode.
    I never said it was "the language's fault".
    You know the drill by now... I ask you to show me where I said that... you pretend it never happened...


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    #174
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    I think its 2 or 3
    Um...
    2 or 3 percent?
    2 or 3 people per year?
    2 or 3 people in recorded history?


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    #175
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    1. If I told you I was male, would that be relevant? No.
    2. Example = anecdote ≠ data. Still applies.
    3. And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the data I presented and moan about a "personal swipe" instead.

    1. It was just a simple correction. I'm not holding it against you. And I said it had nothing to do with the argument.
    2.Living proof that Irish is spoken even after school has ended.
    3.I will go through your data later when I don't feel like breaking things with frustration.

    I honestly want to know do you think all other aspects of our culture are irrelevant too?
    Music - not everyone has an aptitude for it, is it therefore useless?
    Dance - same as music.

    Irish language, music and dance are important components in this culture whether you like it or not.


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    #176
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp
    Subjects required for matriculation
    For entry to all degrees, English, Irish, and four other subjects in the Leaving Certificate (GCE/GCSE or other acceptable qualification) are required.

    And straight back to strawman mode.
    I never said it was "the language's fault".
    You know the drill by now... I ask you to show me where I said that... you pretend it never happened...

    So off the top of my head NUI Maynooth and Galway are the only universities that require Irish, the 2 i had suspected, anymore?


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    #177
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?

    You are obsessed with data. We're not all scientists. Leave the specifics slide a little.


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    #178
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I honestly want to know do you think all other aspects of our culture are irrelevant too?
    Music - not everyone has an aptitude for it, is it therefore useless?
    Dance - same as music.

    Irish language, music and dance are important components in this culture whether you like it or not.
    Last time I checked, nobody was forced to play a bodhrán or dance a jig to get into university or pass their leaving cert.
    Music and dance are OPTIONAL. You are AGAIN assuming I have something against Irish while AGAIN failing completely to back up that claim.
    I have a problem with COMPULSORY Irish.


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    #179
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    So off the top of my head NUI Maynooth and Galway are the only universities that require Irish, the 2 i had suspected, anymore?
    Language requirements for matriculation: exemptions
    Irish

    Generally speaking, anybody applying to an NUI institution who was born and had all their education in the Republic of Ireland must present Irish (achieving at least Grade D at Ordinary Level) for Matriculation purposes.


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    #180
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Last time I checked, nobody was forced to play a bodhrán or dance a jig to get into university or pass their leaving cert.
    Music and dance are OPTIONAL. You are AGAIN assuming I have something against Irish while AGAIN failing completely to back up that claim.
    I have a problem with COMPULSORY Irish.

    Were you crap at irish and failed to get a place in a NUI?


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    #181
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    You are obsessed with data. We're not all scientists. Leave the specifics slide a little.
    Did you really just say that?
    Oh fine then, let's put aside such piffles as "data" and "specifics" and see how well you do in this argument...;)


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