Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

Well actually the latest survey shows 61% in favor of Irish remaining compulsory.

You mean the survey commissioned by an Irish language advocacy group which who's findings were almost the exact opposite of the one the year before? The one that showed more people thought English, Maths, Science, Geography and History were important subjects than Irish?

deise go deo wrote: »

You misunderstand the last bit, It dosent say 89% in favor of compulsion are in favor of compulsion to LC, It says that 89% of those in Favor of compulsion are in the 15 - 34 age bracket. Demonstrating that it is those with the most immidiat experience of Compulsory Irish that are in favor of it.
In that age bracket, in that survey the majority were in Favor of compulsion.

Which again is pretty much the opposite of the last poll. Somebody's asking the wrong questions.

deise go deo wrote: »

It is ironic that the system that has been blamed for the biggest failure in the promotion of irish is still the biggest factor in its Survival.

But that doesn't make any case at all that compulsory Irish is a "good" thing, unless you're stated objective is to force people to speak a language the vast majority of them will never use. Sure, they can speak it, but maybe they will steadfastly refuse to purely because it was forced on them?

deise go deo wrote: »

It is true that people leaving the Gaelscoil will most likely use English quite often, But it is also true that people leaving the Gaelscol will use Irish far more often than people leaving the ordinary education system.
You can say no data to back up this, But then I can say where is you data to discredit it, Of the two sides, I have more to back up my position than you do.

No you don't. You say Gaelscoils promote habitual Irish usage. You have no evidence of this. I do *not* need to provide any evidence to the contrary to say you have absolutely nothing to back up your claim.

deise go deo wrote: »

The only requirement for being Irish is being bourn here and having Irish parents. That strict legalistic defination of 'Irish' however has nothing to do with cultural identity.

That's the legal definition which nobody was questioning. You're having a conversation with yourself on that one.

deise go deo wrote: »

Care to back this up? If it was true, then it seams we would be having this discussion in Irish, as English could never have been forced on the population in the First place.

http://insideireland.ie/2010/06/25/archive4457-4517/
For example, 8% say they are fluent in Irish, and 8.4% say they want Irish to be the main spoken language of the country. 33.7% say they have a “middling” or “not so fluent” amount of Irish, and 33% say they want Irish to be revived, but with English remaining as the main language of the country.
The remaining 58% say they have little or no Irish, with 52% wanting Irish preserved in the Gaeltacht and for cultural reasons and 6% wanting to abandon the language completely.
This shows that for the most part people are putting their money where their mouth is in regards to speaking Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

In many surveys, time and again it has been shown that there is widespreas support for the preservation and promotion of Irish, including the provision of state services in Irish.

But nobody actually wants to speak it. Again, we're back to Irish as a pipe dream.

deise go deo wrote: »

All the parties are in Favor of promoting the language, this includes the spendng of money on it. (Twenty year plan) If you are against this, which it seams you are, then it is up to you to make your case as to why it should not be done, and preferably show that there is support for your ideas.

Yes I am against this. My case is that it is a waste of money. The support for my ideas is in the surveys that show many people are not interested in Irish. I know how democracy works.

deise go deo wrote: »

Welsh started from a much higher base. Irish fell to around 1.5% - 2.5%
Welsh on the other hand never fell below 10%.
Irish is growing again, but there is still a lot of ground to make up before the two are in comparable situations.

The debate on that remains whether compulsory Irish helps promote subsequent usage of Irish. This however is not really anything that interests me. I have no desire to promote or diminish Irish usage, if anything I'd prefer it to be more prevalent, but not at the expense of it being compulsory or a pointless drain on state resources.

deise go deo wrote: »

You seam to misunderstand what a dead language is.
A dead language is a language that has no(Or is certain to loose in a short period) native speakers.
Weather a government supports the language or not has nothing to do with it being alive or dead.

But we are back to the 100 guys paid to speak Klingon. Or Quenya. Or l33t. Your definition has that as making it a "living" language. If it's that easy to "make" a "living" langauge then the life or death of a language is an exercise in cheque writing.

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish being compulsory dosent make it a living language, Irish having native speakers makes it a living language. The future of the language however will be affected if it is made optional without a full and proper reform of the curiculum first. The reason why is dealt with very well by leto here.

I would like to see the continued use of the Irish language.
I do not believe this is the state's responsibility.
What makes a cultural imposition OK just because it is historically our culture?

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

That has nothing to do with justifying compulsory Irish.

Fine, you agree you have no case for justifying compulsory Irish.
We get it already.

Dan_Solo

Loco wrote: »

Anyone know how German/Dutch language curriculums are any different? There are so many young fluent English speakers.

This is pretty simple. German and Dutch kids realise from a very early age that English is useful, so they put some effort into learning it.
Doesn't have to be anything special about the curriculum. It's the incentive.

gsnapp

Wel Enda just secured my vote

Krusader

gsnapp wrote: »

Wel Enda just secured my vote

Mine too, god damn irish wanting to teach irish in schools, they have a neck

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You mean the survey commissioned by an Irish language advocacy group which who's findings were almost the exact opposite of the one the year before? The one that showed more people thought English, Maths, Science, Geography and History were important subjects than Irish?

The poll was carried out by Ipsos MRBI, Are you claiming that they were biased in their polling?
There wasent one the year before, The one before was carried out at the request of FG in 2005.
I dont know where you are getting your info from with regards English maths Science etc, Please provide a ling as I dont think that was part of either survey. I hope you are not making stuff up.

Which again is pretty much the opposite of the last poll. Somebody's asking the wrong questions.

That was from the last poll in 2005, Someones not trying very hard to keep up. Do you even know what you are talking about here?

But that doesn't make any case at all that compulsory Irish is a "good" thing, unless you're stated objective is to force people to speak a language the vast majority of them will never use. Sure, they can speak it, but maybe they will steadfastly refuse to purely because it was forced on them?

You might have a point if it was said with the intention of making a case for compulsory Irish, It was not so this is just a strawman.:rolleyes:

Maybe they will all jump off a cliff, but there is no evidience for either so I fail to see why you are bringing it up. People from Gaelscoileanna are far more likely to use Irish, though being able to use Irish shows why.

No you don't. You say Gaelscoils promote habitual Irish usage. You have no evidence of this. I do *not* need to provide any evidence to the contrary to say you have absolutely nothing to back up your claim.

You dont need to provide evidience, but you cant just assume the oppisit is true just because I have not backed up my claims. That people from Gaelscoils do indeed continue to use Irish is widely acknolaged, as the statment in the quote provided before alludes to. You can bury your head on this point and claim that no evidience for it means its not true, but you would just look a fool.

For example, 8% say they are fluent in Irish, and 8.4% say they want Irish to be the main spoken language of the country. 33.7% say they have a “middling” or “not so fluent” amount of Irish, and 33% say they want Irish to be revived, but with English remaining as the main language of the country.
The remaining 58% say they have little or no Irish, with 52% wanting Irish preserved in the Gaeltacht and for cultural reasons and 6% wanting to abandon the language completely.
This shows that for the most part people are putting their money where their mouth is in regards to speaking Irish.

But nobody actually wants to speak it. Again, we're back to Irish as a pipe dream.

Thats simply not true, This has to be the most idotic statment I have ever come across. How do you know this? Where is your evidience to back up this ridiculus claim?

Yes I am against this. My case is that it is a waste of money. The support for my ideas is in the surveys that show many people are not interested in Irish. I know how democracy works.

Please show me a single survey that shows people are not intrested in Irish. I can show many surveys that show clear and widespread support for the language.

The debate on that remains whether compulsory Irish helps promote subsequent usage of Irish. This however is not really anything that interests me. I have no desire to promote or diminish Irish usage, if anything I'd prefer it to be more prevalent, but not at the expense of it being compulsory or a pointless drain on state resources.

Well, It dose, I would cite the major decline in England in Language learning as evidience for this. Feel free to show some counter evidience to this.

But we are back to the 100 guys paid to speak Klingon. Or Quenya. Or l33t. Your definition has that as making it a "living" language. If it's that easy to "make" a "living" langauge then the life or death of a language is an exercise in cheque writing.

No, Its not, You cant pay someone to be a native speaker, Do you even know what the term Native speaker means?

I would like to see the continued use of the Irish language.
I do not believe this is the state's responsibility.
What makes a cultural imposition OK just because it is historically our culture?

The state disagrees with you there.
How can Irish be a Cultural imposition if it is our culture?

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Fine, you agree you have no case for justifying compulsory Irish.
We get it already.

No, I dont, Please stop trying to misrepresent what I am saying, It is very childish.
I am saying that the argument I made was to disprove you claim that there were no jobs that required Irish that were not directly paied by the state. That argument had nothing to do with making an argument for or against compulsory Irish in schools, your repeated atempt to move the goalpoasts is again childish, I proved that what you claimed was wrong, Live with it.

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

No, I dont, Please stop trying to misrepresent what I am saying, It is very childish.
I am saying that the argument I made was to disprove you claim that there were no jobs that required Irish that were not directly paied by the state. That argument had nothing to do with making an argument for or against compulsory Irish in schools, your repeated atempt to move the goalpoasts is again childish, I proved that what you claimed was wrong, Live with it.

And it's very childish to pretend you can make any case for Irish being a useful skill to have. You tried (and failed admittedly) earlier. Why so quiet about it now?

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

The poll was carried out by Ipsos MRBI, Are you claiming that they were biased in their polling?
There wasent one the year before, The one before was carried out at the request of FG in 2005.

No, I'm claiming the methodology of their questions is suggestive.

deise go deo wrote: »

I dont know where you are getting your info from with regards English maths Science etc, Please provide a ling as I dont think that was part of either survey. I hope you are not making stuff up.

Don't tell me you haven't actually read the report?
http://cnmg.ie/pdfs/10-028750%20%20Comhar%20OmniPoll%20Report%20(2).pdf
I hope you are not simply pretending that what I said about Irish being a quite low priority for most people isn't true?

deise go deo wrote: »

That was from the last poll in 2005, Someones not trying very hard to keep up. Do you even know what you are talking about here?

And someone's desperate to cling to a single source that they haven't even read. Go figure.

deise go deo wrote: »

You might have a point if it was said with the intention of making a case for compulsory Irish, It was not so this is just a strawman.:rolleyes:
Maybe they will all jump off a cliff, but there is no evidience for either so I fail to see why you are bringing it up. People from Gaelscoileanna are far more likely to use Irish, though being able to use Irish shows why.

So now you've said it twice, with no evidence to back it up either time, it is true?
Sorry, it isn't. Even if you say it three times.

deise go deo wrote: »

You dont need to provide evidience, but you cant just assume the oppisit is true just because I have not backed up my claims. That people from Gaelscoils do indeed continue to use Irish is widely acknolaged, as the statment in the quote provided before alludes to. You can bury your head on this point and claim that no evidience for it means its not true, but you would just look a fool.

You are, again, misquoting me. Nasty habit you have there.
"claim that no evidience for it means its not true". I did not say this.
I said that it is NOT PROVEN. This is not the same as it not being true. I do not believe it is obvious in any way, and you have no data AT ALL to back it up. By definition, it is therefore conjecture.

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats simply not true, This has to be the most idotic statment I have ever come across. How do you know this? Where is your evidience to back up this ridiculus claim?

The vast majority of people who can speak Irish do not speak Irish. How much more evidence that they don't want to speak Irish do you need?

deise go deo wrote: »

Please show me a single survey that shows people are not intrested in Irish. I can show many surveys that show clear and widespread support for the language.

They certainly don't want to speak it. Their "interest" is all a little pointless otherwise.

deise go deo wrote: »

Well, It dose, I would cite the major decline in England in Language learning as evidience for this. Feel free to show some counter evidience to this.

Cite what? You haven't cited anything. What are you citing? Do you even know what "cite" means?

deise go deo wrote: »

No, Its not, You cant pay someone to be a native speaker, Do you even know what the term Native speaker means?

Your new claim is that non-native speakers needn't bother learning the language as they will never be part of the "living" Irish. You might want to put that on the promotional posters for Irish language course?

deise go deo wrote: »

The state disagrees with you there.

Correct. They also disagree with me on giving 100 billion of taxpayer money to German bankers, but that's democracy in action, isn't it?

deise go deo wrote: »

How can Irish be a Cultural imposition if it is our culture?

Well if it's "our culture" why does it need to be compulsorally force taught in schools?

An gal gréine

[QUOTE=Dan_Solo

But nobody actually wants to speak it.

[/QUOTE] 212

This is obviously your heartfelt opinion but the data I provided (which were ignored) showed this not to be factual. The reason you may not hear much Irish spoken is because those speaking it are scattered, there's no ghettos in the cities. So when the annual 'Oireachtas na Gaeilge' comes 'round every year, those wanting to speak it and hear it spoken flock there; this year Killarney host it. The English-language media largely ignore it.
During the year, the main cities do have centres where it is spoken daily. Áras na nGael in Dominick St. Galway, you may have heard of. In Belfast, there are several, Cumann Chluain Ard and the Cultúrlann to name 2. Cork's is in the Dyke's area and Club Chonradh na Gaeilge in Dublin's Harcourt St. is on the go since 1968.
I also mentioned the 175,000 who watched the repeat and without subtitles TG4 party leaders' debate last Wednesday. If people were'nt interested in the language, as you repeatedly state here as if it were fact, then they would'nt be watching at all. This seems to be lost on you.
The language is growing. More and more Gaelscoileanna pop up every year despite obstacles put in their way by the State. As these students join the workforce, where the language of Commerce is English largely, they are and will be looking for more outlets for their Irish language usage.
Recently a new Dublin-based all-Irish speaking G.A.A. club was formed.
People not interested? I dont think so!

Krusader

An gal gréine wrote: »

212
Recently a new Dublin-based all-Irish speaking G.A.A. club was formed.
People not interested? I dont think so!

An bhfuil aon chlub sacair Gaeilge i mBÁC, níl mórán suime agam sa pheil

An gal gréine

Níl go fóill, a Chrosaidí, ach mar a dúras, ta forbairt i ndán dúinn.
Tá easpa éigin ar mo dhuine, ní chasfá le duine chomh sotalach i do shaol.

r0cks0l1dd

Some activists are just opposing this for the sake of the Irish language. They don't really care if people have difficulties with it or any other arguments. It doesn't effect anyone except students in the slightest. The Irish heritage won't be lost because it will still be there, only optional (besides some parents will force their kids to do it anyway). I think that it's compulsory status doesn't help preserve it at all, it just makes more people hate doing the language. I'm in Sixth Year and a lot of my friends said they would prefer it if it wasn't compulsory. I don't mind it being there but I think it would be more beneficial to everyone if it was not compulsory.

Krusader

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

I'm in Sixth Year and a lot of my friends said they would prefer it if it wasn't compulsory.

That's because it's a difficult subject as languages tend to be, probably the most difficult one on the syllabus, if it was easy like Art, students would love it. The curriculum is ridiculous and rotten but making it optional without reform doesn't solve anything

Insect Overlord

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

Activists are just opposing this for the sake of the Irish language.

Eh... That's kind of the point?

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

They don't really care if people have difficulties with it or any other arguments.

Have you taken the time to read the thread? Every argument put forward has been treated to suitable scrutiny. There are good arguments on both sides, both for and against. Telling us we don't care is, no offence, a childish way of approaching the debate.

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

It doesn't effect anyone except students in the slightest.

It affects far more than just students. It affects teachers and lecturers at second and third level. It affects parents. It affects book shops and publishers. It affects policy-makers, administrative staff and researchers. There's a whole world out there beyond your secondary school classroom.

r0cks0l1dd

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Eh... That's kind of the point?



Have you taken the time to read the thread? Every argument put forward has been treated to suitable scrutiny. There are good arguments on both sides, both for and against. Telling us we don't care is, no offence, a childish way of approaching the debate.



It affects far more than just students. It affects teachers and lecturers at second and third level. It affects parents. It affects book shops and publishers. It affects policy-makers, administrative staff and researchers. There's a whole world out there beyond your secondary school classroom.

Well I respect what you think but it is my opinion after all. I just think people could have an easier time having the choice not to do it, while chosing something else instead.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone else on this thread. I just wanted to make my view clear even though it's not a suitable one for some.

Insect Overlord

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

Well I respect what you think but it is my opinion after all. I just think people could have an easier time having the choice not to do it, while chosing something else instead.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone else on this thread. I just wanted to make my view clear even though it's not a suitable one for some.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I can understand where people are coming from when it comes to Irish from Leaving Cert students' perspective.

My problem was the way you rubbished every other argument without even referencing an example to prove your point. I see you've gone back an edited your post to make it more general

Feel free to argue with me. I enjoy a good debate.

SeanMadd

Wow didn't think this would become so big when I created it! But anyway, looks like Enda Kenny will more than likely be the next Taoiseach. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0226/politics.html

Do you think he'll go ahead and make irish optional or pay attention to the online petition(and this thread, if he has happened to see it, ha!)and keep irish compulsory?

I really wish he would take the other route to improving our language by changing whole god damn system of learning, starting in primary school(is this my third time saying this?), because clearly not many like to make a big effort in Secondary.

subedei

r0cks0l1dd wrote: »

Some activists are just opposing this for the sake of the Irish language. They don't really care if people have difficulties with it or any other arguments. It doesn't effect anyone except students in the slightest. The Irish heritage won't be lost because it will still be there, only optional (besides some parents will force their kids to do it anyway).

Yep as it worked with Fine Gael making Irish optional in the civil service too:

In 1973-75, a part of the national movement, Fine Gael, told us that it would vastly improve the prospects for the survival of Irish if its status was lowered in the state apparatus. We opposed their idea. In the absence of the strongest possible balancing status-supports and interventions, we pointed out that in any society the subordinated language would, in a short time, be driven out and replaced by the dominant language. As they are telling us today, Fine Gael told us then that our critique was ‘nonsense’. They went ahead and withdrew the status-supports for Irish in the state apparatus. What was the result?

The Department of Education once operated almost entirely through Irish. Recent research has shown that as a result of Fine Gael’s removal of the status of Irish in 1973 and its replacement by some voluntary incentives, the proportion of staff who can provide a service through Irish is down now to 1.5pc! That is hardly an advertisement for lowering the status of Irish in the education system.

http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=5671

Trevor451

I am all for abolishing Irish in schools Its useless after you finish secondary school if you want to get a proper job :rolleyes:

subedei

Trevor451 wrote: »

I am all for abolishing Irish in schools Its useless after you finish secondary school if you want to get a proper job :rolleyes:

Well its a sad state of affairs when this is the opinion of an Irish person. when we get opinions like the link below from a greek man:

http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=5660

DIF

Surely it would be better to teach our kids one of the Chinese languages like Mandarin?

instead have Irish as a optional subject for all those romantic / sentimental upwardly mobile urbanites who like to think they're being very politically correct by sending their cotton-wool protected urban-chic middle-class little darling to an Irish School? The same people probably drive a Lexus Hybrid and shop in Farmers Markets because they believe they are superior to everybody else by wanting to save the planet by buying organic berries and coffee beans from South American.

Now thats my rant over.... have a nice day folks.

Insect Overlord

There's a great quote in "An Béal Bocht" that I'd love to post here. Ironically, for a piece that satirises the attitude of the pro-Gaeilge brigade, it actually describes the modern opposition in quite fitting terms. I'll copy it down tonight. Sadly, they won't even understand it without a translation!

Adrian009

Insect Overlord wrote: »

There's a great quote in "An Béal Bocht" that I'd love to post here. Ironically, for a piece that satirises the attitude of the pro-Gaeilge brigade, it actually describes the modern opposition in quite fitting terms. I'll copy it down tonight. Sadly, they won't even understand it without a translation!

That pretty much proves Enda's point.
People love the language, but not in sufficent numbers to learn it.
If it cannot stand on its own merits, it should be let go.

Toyota_Avensis

Optional Irish at Leaving Cert is by no means a bad idea IMO. Having it there doesn't encourage those to use it as a living language anyway, simply because they're not proficient in the language. Making it optional is worthy of consideration and implementation, providing the Primary School Curriculum regarding Irish is vastly improved. Anybody ever wonder what the effects would be of having all primary education as irish medium in all national schools across the country? Would it have worked?

Adrian009

QUESTION: How many pro-Irish posters here are Gaeilgeoirs?

Adrian009

Toyota_Avensis wrote: »

Anybody ever wonder what the effects would be of having all primary education as irish medium in all national schools across the country? Would it have worked?

That's what the Gaelscoillna are for, so if people wish to send their children to them, they can.

DIF

Google Translator can translate for us non-Irish speakers - well give is the jist of what it says anyways

Toyota_Avensis

Adrian009 wrote: »

That's what the Gaelscoillna are for, so if people wish to send their children to them, they can.

I understand the gaelscoileanna is there for that reason, and a great service they do provide for the language, without a doubt. But I was wondering had all national schools in the state been ran like Irish Medium gaelscoileanna, how effective would it have been for raising the popularity/use of spoken Irish on a daily basis throughout the country.

Toyota_Avensis

Gaeilgeoir anseo by the way, but by no means against Enda's plans of Optionalization of Irish at Leaving Cert level.