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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    As for a practical use for Irish? Well, there's having a chat with friends, singing new songs, reading some amazing poems and stories, developing a broader philosophical understanding of the nature of society, growing in awareness of how this country came to be how it is today, telling your friends secrets when you don't want non-Irish speakers to understand you, expanding your general linguistic and cognitive abilities...

    I dont understand why people always forget this point.


    There are also Jobs that you can only get if you have Irish. Having Irish is an economic advantage to people.

    With the growth of the Language sector this advantage will grow too.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I like to think of Irish as being enticing enough without having to use it for financial gain.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

    Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

    Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.

    I ndáiríre, Bíonn sé ag stadaireacht i mBéarla chomh maith nuair atá na ceamaraí air, Breathnaíonn sé míchompordach an t-am ar fad. ní maith leis ag déanamh diospóireachta ar an teilefís ar chor ar bith


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    For a language that has been dieing for over 400 years and has been "dead" for around 40 odd years it is remarkably fresh.

    On topic - I am not surprised, this is Fine Gael.

    the corpse is still breathing


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    I ndáiríre, Bíonn sé ag stadaireacht i mBéarla chomh maith nuair atá na ceamaraí air, Breathnaíonn sé míchompordach an t-am ar fad. ní maith leis ag déanamh diospóireachta ar an teilefís ar chor ar bith

    Thug me a leitheid faoi deara freisin ach beidh se in thaoiseach. Ma ta comhlaitheoiri maith aige beidh se togha ach faoi lathair ni dheanann se imprisean maith


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

    Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.

    it pains me to see the language being dumbed down at second level. it is not an exaggeration to say the at LC honours is a JC honours level ten years ago. As a teacher I am expected by the department to teach the subject through Irish, but by the school through English. the former would be better but the parents have the say. it seems to me a lot of unqualified persons have the say in how the subject should be taught.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19 Conor_1978


    As a product of the failed curriculum in Irish taught in Irish schools, I'm a firm believer that the entire system of teaching Irish needs to be changed, from Pre-school onwards.

    But I do not believe the way to do this is to reduce the number of people studying Irish. Only 1 country in Europe has this optional second language method that Kenny is proposing and it's failed majorly, there's a reason no one else is using it.

    Kenny needs to put his money where his mouth is, he claims he'll listen to the Irish people, well, every poll taken shows that the vast majority want Irish to remain compulsory, doesn't look like he's listening.

    For decades teachers in Ireland have been saying that the method of teaching is the problem, not the language. But no ones listened to them.

    Lets face it your 15 years old, and you have choice of doing an extra subject for your leaving, Irish, of course you are not going to do it. You're 15 all you think about at that age is getting less homework and having more free classes.

    the Petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html
    is well worth signing for anyone who has any interest in seeing our national culture survive.

    A huge change is needed in the Whole Irish area.. but scrapping it is not the way forward. This article in the Irish Times written by Anna Ní Ghallachair (the director of the language centre at NUI Maynooth) puts it very clear, this policy of Kenny's has been tried and it's failed anywhere it's been tried. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0217/1224290023212.html

    To Quote:
    "In 2004, when introducing optional second language learning after the age of 14, Labour ministers in the UK predicted the same outcome. The result in fact has been a decline of over one-third in numbers taking languages at GCSE in the past seven years, and a only a minority of students achieving A* to C grades in the subject."

    My greatest regret in life (So far) is that I am unable to fluently speak my own national tongue, I do not want my children to have that same regret.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-the-Irish-Language-from-Enda/168584226523259?sk=wall

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Conor_1978 wrote: »
    My greatest regret in life (So far) is that I am unable to fluently speak my own national tongue, I do not want my children to have that same regret.

    By a book and start learning, it's hard at the start but gets easier and easier as you start to break the code. This is how i started learning and then classes. It's not too late, Good luck


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/fg-denies-policy-poses-threat-to-gaeltacht/
    What a cartload.

    However, the party’s Connemara candidate Cllr Seán Kyne has stressed that there will be “no change” in the compulsory nature of the subject until a full consultation has been carried out with affected stakeholders, including Irish language groups, mná na tithe, teachers’ groups and Gaeltacht residents.

    If the only good reasons that exist for keeping Irish compulsory involve giving cheques to Irish speakers, then the language would be better off dead. Like all aspects of culture, what we do defines it, not what we would like it to be.
    "Stakeholders"? What planet are these handout addicts on?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    colmos wrote: »
    To be honest, I have to say I'm disgusted to hear that some people still want to force this language down people's throats.

    You all argue about this culture crap. I have studied Irish against my will for 14 years, doing the LC this year. I have never used this language outside of school... NEVER. I think it's the biggest waste of time in the educational system. If I didn't have to study this, I could have better spent those years advancing my knowledge of Maths or Sciences. This useless subject has just dragged me back. I despise it. Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

    Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

    Why must you feel in all of your narrow minded glory that you must force me and others like me to learn this junk? Have you any practical use of the language to suggest? Because cultural excuses are NOT practical.

    All I want is that people would actually have the option to choose whether they want to do Irish or not.

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE?

    It's too late for any changes to happen for me but I do want to help younger people like me who have no interest in this waste of time of a language.

    REMEMBER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOUR PRECIOUS LANGUAGE, THEY JUST WANT A CHOICE WHETHER TO STUDY IT OR NOT... :mad:



    The only thing wrong with the language is the way it is being taught. Overhaul the curriculum and make it truly focused on the spoken language, and it is of indescribable worth.

    This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language. It is a direct link to our ancient heritage, something which is still living, even after centuries of torment, it is still alive.

    Obviously, you are perfectly fluent in English, as we all are, and how did you learn that? It was spoken to you by your parents, and when you were in school. If you were taught Irish the same way, you would be just as fluent in it.

    Please don't hate the language, hate the system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    One more stat is that 93% of the country want to revive the Irish language...E.S.R.I.
    But what percentage arse themselves to use Irish in their everyday life? Tha's probably a more telling stat.

    *disclosure: I'd be delighted to see Irish back in use.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    But what percentage arse themselves to use Irish in their everyday life? Tha's probably a more telling stat.
    More like 93% of the country want the rest of the country to learn Irish. Like I said, "culture" is what people do, not what people would like everybody did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    I also heard one of John Deasy's (FG TD in Waterford) canvasser complaining about Enda's policy on RnaG during the week, saying that there was no need of it and that they were loosing votes.
    Typical Irish political bull. Let's not change ANYTHING for good or bad, because it's going to annoy someone, and maybe lose us some votes.

    No wonder we are so backwards in this country. Someone comes up with a progressive policy to replace a failed one (and who thinks that compulsory LC Irish, and emphasis on written Irish & literature has succeeded?) and vested interests and those fearful of change kick up a fuss.

    Apologies that I can't make this post in Irish - I was the one of the best Irish students in my year when I entered secondary school (with a scholarship) but by the time I did my leaving I was scraping a D in the honours paper. What we have been doing does not work.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language. It is a direct link to our ancient heritage, something which is still living, even after centuries of torment, it is still alive.
    Nonsense.
    Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?:confused:
    Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
    "Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I dont understand why people always forget this point.


    There are also Jobs that you can only get if you have Irish. Having Irish is an economic advantage to people.

    With the growth of the Language sector this advantage will grow too.
    Of course the irony that those jobs themselves are pointless if Irish isn't considered compulsory is completely lost... Those jobs are all public sector and an unproductive waste of money to the Irish state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Of course the irony that those jobs themselves are pointless if Irish isn't considered compulsory is completely lost... Those jobs are all public sector and an unproductive waste of money to the Irish state.

    Thats simply not true:rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Nobody is arguing that the current system has worked as far as I can see. So why the objection to trying a new approach? Bizarre tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.

    Have you ever gone into a pub or a shop in the Gaelthacht? They use Irish there, Not paid by the state to do so, but paid by their boss, who gets his money from his paying Irish speaking Customers.

    And of course there are several large companies like Google, Facebook, Samsung, Metor etc that provide services as Gaeilge.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Nobody is arguing that the current system has worked as far as I can see. So why the objection to trying a new approach? Bizarre tbh.

    Well, objecting to making Irish optional now is quite logical when all the evidence point to it not working.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 FeistyOne


    Listen a lot of students learn Irish with a lot of contempt for the language purely because it is forced down their throats. It doesn't help students and it certainly doesn't help the language. Why make students who do not like learning the language and know it will be of no use or benefit learning keep it on as far as leaving cert?

    Another thing I feel would happen if it was optional for the leaving cert is the level of Irish would increase if it was being learned because it was wanted to be learned. The contempt for learning the language would not be there so I believe there would be more students doing higher.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Look, there is no evidence that making Irish optional now will do anything but cause harm to the future of the language, I wish you could prove me wrong, but you simply can't.

    If all that was needed was to make Irish optional then that would be great, but come on, seriously, we all know how deeply flawed the curriculum is, making it optional wont change that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Have you ever gone into a pub or a shop in the Gaelthacht? They use Irish there, Not paid by the state to do so, but paid by their boss, who gets his money from his paying Irish speaking Customers.

    And of course there are several large companies like Google, Facebook, Samsung, Metor etc that provide services as Gaeilge.

    Sorry to point this out to you, but none of that makes even a cursory attempt at a case for keepig Irish compulsory. None of those jobs are "dependent" on the Irish language at all.
    So, we'll try again: can you name any jobs in which Irish language competence is a *requirement* that is not closely dependent on state money? I can name plenty that are if you would like me to.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Look, there is no evidence that making Irish optional now will do anything but cause harm to the future of the language, I wish you could prove me wrong, but you simply can't.

    If all that was needed was to make Irish optional then that would be great, but come on, seriously, we all know how deeply flawed the curriculum is, making it optional wont change that.
    And? The point is that if nobody wants to speak Irish (though they all appear to want somebody else to!) then where's the impetus to teach it universally in schools? The only "jobs" where it is required are a net drain on the state.
    If nobody wants to keep some aspect of their culture alive then it is no longer part of that culture. Call it democracy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Well, objecting to making Irish optional now is quite logical when all the evidence point to it not working.;)
    What evidence? This is like one of those cases where some clowns are saying to stick with Fianna Failure 'because the other lot are as bad'.

    Fact: Current system has not worked.
    Fact: We don't know if changing system will work.
    Fact: But we can be sure that sticking with failed system will not work.

    Where is all this evidence you claim that sticking with proven failure is better than trying a new approach?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    What evidence? This is like one of those cases where some clowns are saying to stick with Fianna Failure 'because the other lot are as bad'.

    What are you Bringing FF into it for:confused: Them and they'r bolixology have nothing to do with FG policy.
    Fact: Current system has not worked.
    Fact: We don't know if changing system will work.
    Fact: But we can be sure that sticking with failed system will not work.

    -Please show me where I said it had,
    -We can be fairly sure that just making Irish optional will not work
    -I never suggested we stay with the current system.

    Where is all this evidence you claim that sticking with proven failure is better than trying a new approach?


    Please show me where I said this. I did not say we should stay with the current system, I said that all the evidence suggested that making Irish optional now would do nothing but cause harm to the future of the language.

    Do you think making Irish optional is the only possible way the current system can be changed?:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Sorry to point this out to you, but none of that makes even a cursory attempt at a case for keepig Irish compulsory.



    Dont move the goal post's.

    This is what I was answering. As you well know.
    Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.

    I wasent trying to make a case for Irish being compulsory, I was answering your question.:rolleyes:
    None of those jobs are "dependent" on the Irish language at all.


    Getting those jobs is Dependant on having Irish.
    So, we'll try again: can you name any jobs in which Irish language competence is a *requirement* that is not closely dependent on state money? I can name plenty that are if you would like me to.


    Yes, The jobs I just mentioned, To get them you need Irish, Irish is required to get those jobs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭SeanMadd


    Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

    This is true, it is always the sound bites that they used to say to us as kids that stuck in our heads, "Seas suas, Lámha suas, Suigh síos etc."


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