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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

    Speaking Irish during Irish class would certainly be a good start, but, as I understand it, there would be a substantially greater gain if Irish were being used as the medium of instruction for another subject. For example, suppose that it was compulsory for all students to study at least one OTHER subject entirely through Irish, throughout primary school and up to Junior Cert.

    This would have the potential to significantly improve people's communicative Irish. There would, of course, be significant resource implications for the system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.
    I guess you haven't looked at the proposals so? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nonsense.
    Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?:confused:
    Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
    "Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?


    No I wasn't implying that, I don't mean our identity as individuals, but as a complete culture.

    There are no "hoops" to jump through, a little support for the language wouldn't kill you though.

    I'm a leaving cert student, so I still sit through ranganna filíochta every day, I know first hand that the curriculum is crap, but it hasn't damaged my love of the language.

    Would you have the same attitude to any other part of our culture? Music? Dance? How about we just do away with them, stop encouraging young people to take them up. The language is just as significant as those.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Yes, The jobs I just mentioned, To get them you need Irish, Irish is required to get those jobs.
    Oh dear. How many jobs did you actaully list there? A few localisation gigs? Google might be a huge company, but their employing 2 or 3 Irish speakers to give an Irish translation service doesn't really justify 50,000 leaving cert students a year being forced to learn Irish, at a cost of tens of millions, does it?
    Besides, those jobs only exist to service the artificial requirement imposed by the government due to enforced Irish usage.
    If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?


    Because of cynics like you...:cool:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 942 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    With the English language being such a powerful worldwide force ready to, unwittingly, drown any competing language in it's wake, the Gaeltacht stands in a delicate position and needs fostering. To remove compulsory Irish from the L.C. will have such knock-on effects as to eventually finish-off the Gaeltacht.
    Nobody disagrees with the Curriculum being overhauled- in fact other subjects are in need of overhaul too from the memory tests that we are all subjected to, to get our exams.
    I think it's missing the point to be anxious as to how "useful" the Irish language is. It's a huge part of our living heritage that if it is allowed to slip away by the demise of the Gaeltacht, the WELL, then there's no going back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 208 ✭✭subedei


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh dear. How many jobs did you actaully list there? A few localisation gigs? Google might be a huge company, but their employing 2 or 3 Irish speakers to give an Irish translation service doesn't really justify 50,000 leaving cert students a year being forced to learn Irish, at a cost of tens of millions, does it?

    Well for example, there are over 12 universities in the USA that study irish, one in Notre dam has an entire Irish department, there are few universities in Britain that do too, granted most of these are old irish but a knowledge of modern Irish would help massively. Also early Irish literature, and Irish medieval literature (which are in Irish) is studied and has been studied extensively for atleast the last hundred years in Germany, France, and Scandinivia for instance.

    As for compulsory leaving cert subjects as others have said in this thread most people dont and wont use English, Maths and another European Language once they leave school. How many people actually have to know anything to do with English that they study in their leaving cert once they leave school?
    Besides, those jobs only exist to service the artificial requirement imposed by the government due to enforced Irish usage.
    If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?

    Well to be honest there is alot of things that relay on government funding, in fact most of the arts do, so according to your logic we should get rid of things like fine art, theatre, music and a host of other things that dont make alot of money directly. So we can just cancel culture and focus solely on business then. RTE and Irish films also get government funding too so why dont we cancel all that and just watch American and european cinema and channels instead. Irish language is part of the Irish culture and even how we speak English is affected by it, if u want to read anything pre-19th century from Ireland having no Irish means we cannot read it. Sure we wont make alot of money from it but then why does something have to make money in order to be important?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66 ✭✭Jim Stark


    It's not right saying Fine Gael are trying to end the Irish language, that's just scare mongering by Martin, and FFer's.

    This point of the policy is to encourage it, by changing the way it's taught, and by not forcing people.

    The fact is that the current approach to teaching Irish in schools DOESN'T WORK. And if something doesn't work, you make changes, and try a different approach. It's not going to improve if you just keep going about it the same way, which is what will happen with FF, and Labour.

    Like most people, I spent more than 12 years in primary, and secondary school learning Irish, and I can only string a few basic sentences together, and I think that's schocking. And that's true for the majority of people, I know some people are fluent leaving school, and that's great but I don't think it's because of how it was taught in the schools. I welcome any effort to change this, and it's one of the reasons I'm voting FG.

    It's basic psychology; force someone to do something, and they will reject it, and resent having to do it. Present them a choice, and you will get a more positive response.
    Enda Kenny said he will also make the oral count for 50%, which will give more importance to the spoken aspect, which is what language is all about. I believe him to be genuine in his efforts to encourage the language, and don't think he is trying to kill it by any means.

    With this in place, less people will no doubtedly be studying Irish at leaving cert level, but I think it will result in more people having a higher level of spoken Irish coming out of school, which is what we want.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Because of cynics like you...:cool:
    Oh I see, if you don't want to waste millions on pointless projects that nobody's really interested in then you're a "cynic"...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 208 ✭✭subedei


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh I see, if you don't want to waste millions on pointless projects that nobody's really interested in then you're a "cynic"...

    And where are you getting that from? You care to share your source?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    subedei wrote: »
    And where are you getting that from? You care to share your source?
    http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_press_release.pdf
    Just over 72,000 persons, representing 4.4 per cent
    of all those who could speak Irish, spoke it on a daily basis outside education

    Loads of people can speak Irish because they were forced to learn it. Unfortunately virtually nobody wants to speak it.
    Therein lies the reality of our culture.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    I want to speak it


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    subedei wrote: »
    Well for example, there are over 12 universities in the USA that study irish, one in Notre dam has an entire Irish department, there are few universities in Britain that do too, granted most of these are old irish but a knowledge of modern Irish would help massively. Also early Irish literature, and Irish medieval literature (which are in Irish) is studied and has been studied extensively for atleast the last hundred years in Germany, France, and Scandinivia for instance.
    Wonderful PR, but even Notre Dame only lists *seven* fellows as having the Irish language as their speciality. So they hire, what, one person per year? Great career choice then. I'd imagine they'd prefer a native speaker anyway, who wouldn't necessarily have learned a single word of Irish in school.
    subedei wrote: »
    As for compulsory leaving cert subjects as others have said in this thread most people dont and wont use English, Maths and another European Language once they leave school. How many people actually have to know anything to do with English that they study in their leaving cert once they leave school?
    What? Are you for real? Anybody who has to write anything at all will need a certain standard of English. Whether they become "professional English users" is irrelevant as just about everybody will use their English skills every day. Any office work. Any report writing.
    And maths? I guess there's only all the sciences, all the engineering disciplines, computer science, economics, accountancy and a few other people who would use maths daily. Hardly anybody.... They might even get jobs in the private sector!
    subedei wrote: »
    Well to be honest there is alot of things that relay on government funding,
    Correct, lots of useful things like doctors, police, civil servants, (non-Irish teaching) teachers...
    subedei wrote: »
    in fact most of the arts do, so according to your logic we should get rid of things like fine art, theatre, music and a host of other things that dont make alot of money directly. So we can just cancel culture and focus solely on business then. RTE and Irish films also get government funding too so why dont we cancel all that and just watch American and european cinema and channels instead.
    Well, since nobody wants to pay for such Irish programmes directly, I suppose the only way they will ever be paid for is through tax. Asked to pay directly, nobody's interested. Sorry, that's the truth. And yes, you can put all the other arts in there too. If no individual would dream of paying for a piece of art, why should the taxpayer?
    subedei wrote: »
    Irish language is part of the Irish culture and even how we speak English is affected by it, if u want to read anything pre-19th century from Ireland having no Irish means we cannot read it. Sure we wont make alot of money from it but then why does something have to make money in order to be important?
    It's part of Irish culture because it is forced on us. Things are important to a nation by definition because a lot of people care about them.
    The Irish language does not fit into this category.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    I want to speak it
    Admirable, but I don't think you've quite got the hang of working out what "popular" is yet...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »

    It's part of Irish culture because it is forced on us. Things are important to a nation by definition because a lot of people care about them.
    The Irish language does not fit into this category.

    Irish isn't force on anybody no more than any other subject


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    With the English language being such a powerful worldwide force ready to, unwittingly, drown any competing language in it's wake, the Gaeltacht stands in a delicate position and needs fostering. To remove compulsory Irish from the L.C. will have such knock-on effects as to eventually finish-off the Gaeltacht.
    You're kind of assuming here that there will be some undeniable tug on the heartstrings here when you say the Gaeltacht is threatened.
    So what?
    It's a part of the country where a lot of people speak Irish. If that can only be maintained artificially by paying people to speak Irish (and don't pretend that's not what we're talking about) then it quite simply deserves to die.
    Nobody disagrees with the Curriculum being overhauled- in fact other subjects are in need of overhaul too from the memory tests that we are all subjected to, to get our exams.
    I think it's missing the point to be anxious as to how "useful" the Irish language is. It's a huge part of our living heritage that if it is allowed to slip away by the demise of the Gaeltacht, the WELL, then there's no going back.
    Correct, it will be lost. Because nobody wanted to speak it.
    If Irish only exists because people are paid to speak it, the it is not part of our living heritage at all. It is dead, only nobody's turned off the life support yet.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Irish isn't force on anybody no more than any other subject
    Oh yeah, you can always not go to school.
    I suppose that's what you mean by "choice".:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Tá Gaeilge agam agus ní fhaigheann mé airgead ar bith nuair a labhraíonn mé í, níl sí marbh ar chor ar bith


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It's part of Irish culture because it is forced on us.

    It's part of Irish culture because it was the first language spoken here, and is a direct link to our heritage. Perhaps you feel it was forced on you, but for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, I feel priviledged to have been given the oppurtunity to learn a language so historic.

    Despite the frailty of the system, I have a very good level of Irish, and expect to get an A in it in my leaving cert this year. I made an effort all through school to learn it, and it paid off.

    How much of an effort did you make?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh yeah, you can always not go to school.
    I suppose that's what you mean by "choice".:rolleyes:

    You can choose an exemption


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Tá Gaeilge agam agus ní fhaigheann mé airgead ar bith nuair a labhraíonn mé í, níl sí marbh ar chor ar bith
    Back to the start then?
    It's not dead yet mainly because it is artificially propped up by the state.
    Just because they don't pay you in person doesn't mean the majority of "professional" Irish speakers aren't dependent on the state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    I have never worked for the state
    The English language is also dependent on the state


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    It's part of Irish culture because it was the first language spoken here, and is a direct link to our heritage. Perhaps you feel it was forced on you, but for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, I feel priviledged to have been given the oppurtunity to learn a language so historic.
    No, I am 100% certain I was required to do it in school if I wanted to get my leaving cert. That is called forced. Not so many people mind if there is a point, as there is with English and maths.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Despite the frailty of the system, I have a very good level of Irish, and expect to get an A in it in my leaving cert this year. I made an effort all through school to learn it, and it paid off.
    Good for you.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    How much of an effort did you make?
    The effort I made is irrelevant. The grade I got is irrelevant. Whether I was exempt or not is irrelevant.
    The point of Irish being a requirement for the leaving cert and university admission when it is entirely useless except as a perpetuation of itself IS relevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The effort I made is irrelevant. The grade I got is irrelevant. Whether I was exempt or not is irrelevant.
    The point of Irish being a requirement for the leaving cert and university admission when it is entirely useless except as a perpetuation of itself IS relevant.

    English and Maths are also requirements for admission into colleges


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    I have never worked for the state
    The English language is also dependent on the state
    You're really struggling with this.
    If you ever want to utilise the Irish taught to you for any benefit other than entertainment, you will be 99% likely to end up in a job funded directly or close to directly by the state.
    Many useful things, such as competence in a common language, i.e. English, are funded by the state, correct.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    English and Maths are also requirements for admission into colleges
    Correct again. They are basic requirements for any sort of data analysis and to demonstrate competence in communication of ideas with your peers.
    Irish demonstrates no such aptitudes, but it is still a "requirement" for entry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're really struggling with this.
    If you ever want to utilise the Irish taught to you for any benefit other than entertainment, you will be 99% likely to end up in a job funded directly or close to directly by the state.
    Many useful things, such as competence in a common language, i.e. English, are funded by the state, correct.

    Níl mé ag streachailt le rud ar bith, Níl mé ach ag iarraidh do chloigeann a chur ina chiseach anocht


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Níl mé ag streachailt le rud ar bith, Níl mé ach ag iarraidh do chloigeann a chur ina chiseach anocht
    Well if you're not really even attempting to argue against what I'm saying, what's the point?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The effort I made is irrelevant. The grade I got is irrelevant. Whether I was exempt or not is irrelevant.

    I reckon it is relevant, because you seem to be the only one who has consistantly returned again and again to express your negativity towards the language. You obviously harbour some sort of personal grudge against the language, since your comments seem to be dripping with utter hatred.

    What difference would there be between us and the English, or the Americans, if we get rid of Irish?
    Faic, sin an freagair.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Correct again. They are basic requirements for any sort of data analysis and to demonstrate competence in communication of ideas with your peers.
    Irish demonstrates no such aptitudes, but it is still a "requirement" for entry.

    Taispeánann sé go bhfuil an scolaire meabhrach, Is iad na teangeacha is deacra de na ábhair a dhéanann muid sa scoil. Scarann sí an scolaire lag ón scolaire láidir


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