RTÉ DTT Reception difficulties in parts of the south east.

im getting nothing either, i think it was working last night, no signal today, did a rescan and nothing. Im in Wexford town. Was working fine past few weeks after a dodgy start.

Because your Picnic box does not support HD (which is required on Saorview).

I have no signal here all day.

I can confirm that Mt. Leinster is working. Receiving DTT in Wexford town

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

On what channel (frequency) are you receiving it?

I'm fairly sure it's on ch. 45 but would have to retune to make sure.

Evening all, I would be pleased if one could tell me, if one living in Dingle Co.Kerry. would be able to receive RTE DTT channels.I can get them in East Cork, but would like to know,on behalf of an old aged couple, who live in Dingle.
Cheers and thanks in advance for any info given.
grayface

yes. The UPC digital and modem signals use the same band. Your only possible UPC analogue is on VHF using a VHF-UHF diplexer to combine the two.

UPC will likely stop analogue eventually using 2012 as an excuse to have more channels for Digital and Modem.

Thanks for the tip. I just wanted a stopgap fix for a good digital reception. I have a HumaxHD DVR for sat stations and I am waiting for a DTT DVR with Mpeg4 to come on the market at a good price so I can record Saorview. RTE networks are a bit slow with their approval of units

The Cush wrote: »

Not RTÉ's fault, blame the manufacturers.

The manufacturers must submit their products for compliance testing to Teracom Sweden with the appropriate fee, if the unit passes the testing process it can then be licenced by RTÉ to carry the Saorview logo.

Perhaps the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturers means they don't think the Irish market is big enough to worry about just yet... ???

marclt wrote: »

Perhaps the lack of enthusiasm by the manufacturers means they don't think the Irish market is big enough to worry about just yet... ???

It's only €40M to €250M in TV sales a year.

Sky's Irish revenue is heading for 150M a year, the VAT (now 20% = €30M?) goes to UK.

UK market about €1B to €6B in TV sales a year.

The best hope for choice and good price may thus be "Freeview HD" models. The "Freeview HD" market is really embryonic yet and won't be full potential till 2012/2013, as trail broadcasts only started in late 2009 and many areas don't even have signal yet.

I know that. But if there is no suitable Saorview product it's the next best thing. Some "Freeview HD" will be better than others and in time Manufacturers may ensure better Irish compatibility. It's much better than TNT-HD.

One would assume Teracom was chosen in a hurry when it looked like Boxer was taking a licence. I don't beleive there is any existing facility in Ireland that is qualfied or experienced to do this.

Self certification is absolutely a non-starter for this kind of product. You read about the Triax 537?

This is not IT but Communications Engineering and embedded systems. The only people that ever did training in that in These Islands used to be BBC at Woodnorton and in some areas The pre-BT British Post Office (one of whose Engineers created a Computer at Blechley Park). Now maybe Netherlands, France and Germany has that sort of training and resources. Not UK or Ireland (BBC was forced to sell of Transmitter Network, Woodnorton and both BT and BBC research are a pale shadow of 1970s).

A lot of the top RTE NL engineers were BBC trained. Broadcasters all over the world used to send people on courses at Woodnorton. Though probably the Germans didn't need to send anyone.

IT people would be useless.

Regular IT people are OK for IT. But no use for embedded systems, Comms, Telecoms etc.

You've done Digital receiver compliance testing then?

No. It's not as simple as having fancy test gear, Nordig 2.2 and the RTE variations and MHEG5 1.6 UK broadcast profile. You have to interpret the specifications and design tests. Build test data streams, correct and suitably broken ones. You need experience to interpret what the test gear is saying on some tests.

It's "interesting" even verifying the test data is what you think it is. I doubt RTE NL could do it with a high degree of assurance.

Different boxes and screen sizes with same hardware and software should be one test for certification. i.e. A LG 32LD450 is same as a LG 42LD450. I don't know if they do this.

Sony are lunatics if they have 30 models a year other than simple variations of screen size or colour of cabinet.

Self certification is crazy talk. You just get junk. if it's not independently tested how do you prove their failings? What happens if after 3 years RTE, TG4, TV3, Oireachtas or Film channel use a feature hitherto unused and it doesn't work on all Sony sets or triax Boxes?

For this kind of product you absolutely can't have self certification.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, we have non-certification at the moment. Not much use to the general public, particularly when Tesco are putting up helpful signs saying 'Freeview not available here' (whatever Freeview is).

If there was a legal requirement to be certified, like the French did, that would be useful. But at least self-certification would give a legal background to non-performance in a Sale of Goods case.

At the present time, there is nothing to support the purchaser.

There is a Certification scheme. It's just expensive and not mandatory.

self-certification would give a legal background to non-performance in a Sale of Goods case
How? It's meaningless in this kind of product.

On Sale of Goods it's Simple. Apart from certification you can say a TV or Set box is compatible with Irish Digital TV if it has:
Video
MPEG4 H.264 L3 and L4
Setbox outlets: HD on HDMI with HDCP support and SD, and down scaled HD on SCART
TV inputs, at least one each of: RF, HDMI with HDCP and SCART
Audio
MP2 and HE-AAC audio (DTS, AC3/DD not required)
RF
DVB-T (DVB-T2 is permitted)
UHF (there is a requirement in Spec for VHF, but utilisation of this seems vanishingly unlikely, so a Maker can likely "get off" on this one unless VHF is deployed).
Middleware
MHEG5 UK 1.06 Broadcast Profile is mandatory

Claiming you have these, you can claim your TV or Set is Irish Digital Compatible. It won't do OTA updates, as RTE NL will only do these for Certified sets. It might not pass Certification.

You can't have two schemes. That way lies madness. But on basis of what RTE and RTE NL has published:
1) You can only claim Saorview Compatibility if certified as result of passing tests by authorised independent test house. RTE could give contract to someone else eventually. We don't know terms of Contract with Teracom, but the price isn't extortionately high for this kind of Certification in Scandinavia. A bit high maybe.

2) You can claim to be "Irish Digital Compatible" with out certification. If you have read the Nordig 2.2 and RTE NL's spec and believe your box or TV meets the requirements, the most basic of which are above as an expansion of RTE's own advice to purchasers:

Key elements of the receiver specification include the following:

1. The receiver needs to be capable of decoding both Standard Definition (SD) and High Definition (HD) MPEG 4 signals. This is important as RTÉ is planning to replace its current SD RTÉ Two service with an RTÉ Two HD service on SAORVIEW. More HD services are likely to follow in the future.

2. The receiver needs to have MHEG5 middleware to decode RTÉ’s proposed new Digital Aertel Service and other possible interactive services.

via http://www.rte.ie/saorview/receiving.html

On such a product with such complexity there can be no "self certification" for "Saorview". However nothing is stopping people who believe they are compatible in all important aspects (which are suggested by RTE above) claiming "Irish Digital TV compatibility".

But
Lets say a non PVR Setbox retails at €70 in Tesco with very little margin and certification is €20,000. Then selling only 1,000 adds €20 to price. The walker boxes are amazingly about €30 more expensive than similar non-certified Vestel made boxes. Sell 20,000 and the extra cost is 1 Euro.

TV (or real HDD dual Tuner PVR) on average is Retail €400. Selling only 1,000 adds €20 to price. Sell 20,000 and the extra cost is 1 Euro. Note that in any sane scenario different screen sizes if proven to be same HW and SW, ought to be only one certification.

Certification is obviously a biggest issue for very basic boxes. Most of these come from either Vestel or 3 to 5 Asian producers. Perhaps the Manufacturers should certify the un-badged box. That would only happen if certification is mandatory for Irish Market. (Government has been USELESS on DTT over the last 12 years).

For the TVs averaged over screen size and true HDD dual tuner PVRs, the certification is expensive, but a possible cost.

It's likely the market for set-boxes is a lot more than 500,000 over the next 3 years if people with UPC and Sky buy boxes for 2nd and 3rd TV sets.

The Annual TV market I think is naturally 120,000 to 200,000 units a year. But that can rise due to ASO or DSO provoking people to buy new TVs, or HD, 3D or Olympics provoking folk to buy new tvs.

It's almost criminal that today the shops are full of incompatible new TVs. If the TV doesn't do the minimum above it's not at all compatible. If it doesn't do Video + Audio via aerial after ASO, it's not any longer a TV, but a video Monitor.

I'd have had to charge more than Teracom and also I'd have to hire foreign Test Engineers. Also it would not have any international reputation. You can only use an established test house or the Manufacturers won't trust it.

There so far has been almost zero Government investment, yet they hope to "reap" the bounty of the Digital Dividend. Most of the Bungling has been due to Government policy in insisting on a Pay TV partner.

The Certification isn't looking good at the minute. But we have not had Full Launch, nor start of any Public publicity at all yet. (Coming End February or Start of March).

There is estimate of 20,000 Homes for Saorsat. The extra cost compared to Aerial should be subsidized if RTENL says you can't get a signal, as it's a policy decision. So Dish and Ka Band LNB paid for but not install or box, but only in official no-signal areas. (as many people need aerial install and box for DTT. The DTT service is planned assuming almost everyone uses outdoor aerial. That's RTENL's recommendation).

There is estimate of maybe 100,000 to 200,000 homes ought to get an ASO subsidy.
See http://www.saortv.info/2010/12/08/grants-for-set-box/ Obviously a Subsidy of €1.5M too low for 100,000 homes, that's only €15 each!

The new Government should tender for 5 suppliers (actual real ones, not 5 companies rebadging the same Vestel box) to supply box in exchange for ASO subsidy Cert, the Distributor to get €50 redemption and the Maker to get the €20,000 Certification test charge paid by Government. These boxes then can be sold Retail for no more than €60 with Saorview Certification.
Cost to Government = €100,000 + €50 per box cert redeemed, which could be 100,000 to 200,000 x 50 = €5M to €10M, thus certification is 5% to 2.5% of cost to Government of ASO subsidy for Welfare recipients and makes more than 5 models of Entry Level box available.

The approval and payment for Certification and the five models of boxes should go on Market now, but only exchange of "welfare tickets" (only one per address no matter how many people on Welfare at address) for those setboxes during Q3 2012, to minimise number resold.