Extension - are we dreaming?

LazyPianist · 09-06-2010 8:04pm

Hi,

I'm thinking of having the following done to my house

(a) my garage converted to a one storey living room complete with an en suite shower and toilet.
(b) my kitchen extended
(c) entire house re-wired
(d) new windows for entire house
(e) new bath and power shower in existing toliet.

The extension to the kitchen will have a total area of 135 sq.ft
The garage has an area of approximately 200 sq.ft

a preliminary estimate (based on my own calcs) is:

(a) Kitchen extension - 14,000 euro ( roughly 100 euro per square foot ) for building shell i.e. concrete, rsj, tiled lean to roof, wall parapet to house box gully rw drain ; 8,000 for new kitchen units installed and fitted, complete with appliances such as dryer, washing machine, fridge. sub total = 22,000 euro

(b) Garage conversion - 20,000 ( just a rough estimate based on 100 euro per square foot ), lean to roof. sub total = 20,000 euro

(c) between 4,000 and 5,000 on re-wiring existing house plus 2,000 for wiring extension and converted garage, sub total = 7,000

(d) about 10,000 for supply and fit out of pvc windows (8No. existing replaced with new windows, 1No. new window for converted garage, 1No. new window for kitchen extension plus 1No. veelux window in kitchen extension roof. sub total =10,000

(e) 2,000 for supply and fit out of new bath and new power shower. sub total = 2,000

I may also require new laminated floor boards fitted on the existing floor boards in the existing kitchen plus a new ceiling in the kitchen itself (extension plus existing ). I figure this would cost 2,000 euro. Tiling will be required in the new kitchen so I rounded this off to about 1,500 based in prices of tiles and estimated labour costs ( floor and walls would be tiled, floor area = 135 square ft ). sub total = 3,500 euro

That brought me to a grand total = 64,500 euro

I've also considered having the garage converted into 2 stories. I'm concerned about the potential costs of having to under pin foundations, if the existing foundations could not support two stories. If I were to go ahead and convert the garage into a two storey extension, then I wouldn't bother with the kitchen extension, as one storey of the converted garage would become a dining area.

I have 70,000 euro to spend.

Anyone fancy criticising the above in terms of costing ? Anyone got any advice ? I'll probably need to get planning permission for the garage conversion. I don't think I'll need an architect, as it's a small job, and I can have any drawings done on CAD.

What do you guys think ? Any helpful advice would be appreciated. Cheers.

muffler · 09-06-2010 10:52pm

May sound like a silly question LazyPianist but where are you located?

Prices do vary considerably in different parts of the country.

LazyPianist · 09-06-2010 11:33pm

muffler wrote: »

May sound like a silly question LazyPianist but where are you located?

Prices do vary considerably in different parts of the country.

Hi muffler.

I'm in the tallaght area - the nice part

- in South West Dublin.

muffler · 09-06-2010 11:41pm

Oh I know Tallaght from socialising the odd time down the years. Used to have the odd drink or 15 in the Foxes Covert or a good few down the road in the Cuckoo's nest

Unfortunately (for you, not me

) Im in Donegal so I really wouldnt want to hazard a guess at the pricing in that neck of the woods but hang in there and Im sure you will get a few replies from others.

mollzer · 07-11-2010 11:50am

We are thinking of putting an extension onto our house, a bedroom/ensuite and maybe extending the living area with a sunroom. Its an old house so the external wall that has to knocked through is deep.

We have a budget of 40k and I am wondering is this a realistic price to get the build done? Including architects fees.

The house is on the Cavan/Monaghan border.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

P3t3roc · 29-12-2010 2:13am

Yes you are dreaming. There is no way you will build an extension of that size for the amount of money you are talking about. Think about it, you have to employ people to do work on your house extension who are trained to do their particular trade and do it properly. Yes you will get it done cheap if thats what you want but not to a very good standard. So cop on and pay for good service. Save up and get it done right

kfc1 · 29-12-2010 9:55pm

P3t3roc wrote: »

Yes you are dreaming. There is no way you will build an extension of that size for the amount of money you are talking about. Think about it, you have to employ people to do work on your house extension who are trained to do their particular trade and do it properly. Yes you will get it done cheap if thats what you want but not to a very good standard. So cop on and pay for good service. Save up and get it done right

Perhaps it is you P3t3roc who should cop on! - why not read the thread before posting unhelpful replies:rolleyes:

portlady · 04-01-2011 12:12pm

you seem to be on the money there and could be lucky enough to have over estimated on many eg garage. good luck

paddy147 · 04-01-2011 7:58pm

P3t3roc wrote: »

Yes you are dreaming. There is no way you will build an extension of that size for the amount of money you are talking about. Think about it, you have to employ people to do work on your house extension who are trained to do their particular trade and do it properly. Yes you will get it done cheap if thats what you want but not to a very good standard. So cop on and pay for good service. Save up and get it done right

You can get it done on the cheap and also get a 1st class finish and service.

You obviously have never heard of putting a house build/extension/renovation out to "TENDER" before then.judging by your smart ar5e post.:rolleyes:

I think that its YOU who needs to COP ON here.

I saved an absolute fortune by doing this and got a brilliant job done for the money.I had full spec 10 page long written quotes (fully detailed breakdowns with exact prices for all the various parts of the build and trades services,demolishion,stripping out,ground works,fountations,steelworks,glazing and doors,electrical,plumbing,insulation,carpentry,tiling,kitchen fitters,bathrooms,stove and chimney fitters etc etc) from 15 different builders who were very eager to get my job/tender.:)

Got the entire original house completely gutted back to 4 bare walls and a bare roof timbers(absolutely nothing left inside,even the ceilings and 1st floors and staircases were ripped out and skipped),complete existing house rebuild/renovation,new large 2 storey extension,front porch, and a good few extras all done on the original budget by putting the project out to tender.Basicly I got a big/large new house built to a fantastic turnkey finish (everything done,ready to live in).Got the kitchen and marble floors I have allways wanted and the open plan living area I have allways wanted too

I even had the money saved (thanks to tender process) to employ a structural engineer and architect friend of mine to be on site and fully over see that the work was being done exactly to the tender specifications and was being done correctly too.
I still had enough money left (difference between my original budget and the actual tender price ) to have a lovely block built and rendered garage with leccy garage doors UPVC windows and door and water/power built too.

So I did get the best bang for my buck,in the end,by going the route of tendering.

PS_For anyone not in the know.....a tender means that you (the client) puts your job description down on paper listing EVERYTHING that you want done,and then you invite builders and contractors to come and put in a full written quotation for the build/work to be done.

When you are happy with the builder you pick,the builder signs up to a written specification (legally binding once both signatures are on the tender sign off sheet) and HAS to bring all the work and trades skills in on the tender price/budget.He MUST get all the work done for the price that he has written down on his tender application/quotation to you.Any unforseen extras or work are the builders problem,not yours.

bruschi · 04-01-2011 10:24pm

paddy147 wrote: »

You can get it done on the cheap and also get a 1st class finish and service.

You obviously have never heard of putting a house build/extension/renovation out to "TENDER" before then.judging by your smart ar5e post.:rolleyes:

I think that its YOU who needs to COP ON here.

I saved an absolute fortune by doing this and got a brilliant job done for the money.I had full spec 10 page long written quotes (fully detailed breakdowns with exact prices for all the various parts of the build and trades services,demolishion,stripping out,ground works,fountations,steelworks,glazing and doors,electrical,plumbing,insulation,carpentry,tiling,kitchen fitters,bathrooms,stove and chimney fitters etc etc) from 15 different builders who were very eager to get my job/tender.:)

Got the entire original house completely gutted back to 4 bare walls and a bare roof timbers(absolutely nothing left inside,even the ceilings and 1st floors and staircases were ripped out and skipped),complete existing house rebuild/renovation,new large 2 storey extension,front porch, and a good few extras all done on the original budget by putting the project out to tender.Basicly I got a big/large new house built to a fantastic turnkey finish (everything done,ready to live in).Got the kitchen and marble floors I have allways wanted and the open plan living area I have allways wanted too

I even had the money saved (thanks to tender process) to employ a structural engineer and architect friend of mine to be on site and fully over see that the work was being done exactly to the tender specifications and was being done correctly too.
I still had enough money left (difference between my original budget and the actual tender price ) to have a lovely block built and rendered garage with leccy garage doors UPVC windows and door and water/power built too.

So I did get the best bang for my buck,in the end,by going the route of tendering.

PS_For anyone not in the know.....a tender means that you (the client) puts your job description down on paper listing EVERYTHING that you want done,and then you invite builders and contractors to come and put in a full written quotation for the build/work to be done.

When you are happy with the builder you pick,the builder signs up to a written specification (legally binding once both signatures are on the tender sign off sheet) and HAS to bring all the work and trades skills in on the tender price/budget.He MUST get all the work done for the price that he has written down on his tender application/quotation to you.Any unforseen extras or work are the builders problem,not yours.

you make some good points and good advise, but your last point is way off. unforeseen extras and work are the builders cost? that would in no way ever stick. if its unforeseen, how can a builder legislate for that cost? it would be a more than acceptable variation. and unforeseen work? if thing have to be changed say due to planning or something like that, the builder is entitled to a variation in cost. it will be on the client to pay for any unforeseen extras. if I was a builder, and I hit rock in the foundation dig and there was no engineers report (which there rarely is for domestic one offs), I would want paying for a rock breaker. just because it is unforeseen, does not make it the builders responsibility.

wirehairmax · 04-01-2011 10:30pm

PS_For anyone not in the know.....a tender means that you (the client) puts your job description down on paper listing EVERYTHING that you want done,and then you invite builders and contractors to come and put in a full written quotation for the build/work to be done.

When you are happy with the builder you pick,the builder signs up to a written specification (legally binding once both signatures are on the tender sign off sheet) and HAS to bring all the work and trades skills in on the tender price/budget.He MUST get all the work done for the price that he has written down on his tender application/quotation to you.Any unforseen extras or work are the builders problem,not yours.

Unforseen extras are the clients responsibility I'm afraid. All the builder is responsible for is whatever is included in the written specification. A contractor is entitled to claim for extras as they arise if they are no fault of his and/or are something that the client has overlooked/not foreseen. If for example the doors are not listed in the spec and the builder has not included them in his price then they are an extra and the builder is under no obligation to include them at his expense. Also a builder cannot be expected to foresee structural/electrical/plumbing problems with an existing house. An old house always throws up the odd problem which nobody can foresee. Its nobodys fault, its just that some things dont appear until the building work has started. A builder should and will not be expected to pick up the bill for unforseen problems if they are not specified from the outset and priced for accordingly

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 12:09am

wirehairmax wrote: »

Unforseen extras are the clients responsibility I'm afraid. All the builder is responsible for is whatever is included in the written specification. A contractor is entitled to claim for extras as they arise if they are no fault of his and/or are something that the client has overlooked/not foreseen. If for example the doors are not listed in the spec and the builder has not included them in his price then they are an extra and the builder is under no obligation to include them at his expense. Also a builder cannot be expected to foresee structural/electrical/plumbing problems with an existing house. An old house always throws up the odd problem which nobody can foresee. Its nobodys fault, its just that some things dont appear until the building work has started. A builder should and will not be expected to pick up the bill for unforseen problems if they are not specified from the outset and priced for accordingly

1stly,my house was an old house,that was run down internaly with regards the kitchen,also the plumbing,wiring,ceilings,flooring and attic/roofing.

My last point is actually on the mark,and not way off it,in fact.
What do you think a QS and a builder/contractor do when they look at/inspect a property and then give in a tender quote and sign up to a tender?They budget in their tender price for any unforseen things,that may arise.

Unforseen extras are NOT the clients responsibility.

That is what the contingency/pc sum in the tender price/quote is for.;)

Its up to the builder to get unforseen work done and sorted (with no extra cost to the client).My builder had to pick up the tab for digging out and building a new sewer trap system,as the existing 1 had started to crumble away and was leaking sewage/fluids out into the ground and also the neigbours land too.Also he picked up the tab for the sparks to disconnect,remove and reroute an old SWA cable that was in the way of the fountations of the extansion part of my build.And also for the carpenter to replace several rotten roof joists with new joists from a pervious bad roof leak (before I bought the property).

The only extras that are the clients problem is if the client wants to add in extra work that was not allready on the tender specification.
The builder is RESPONSIBLE for bringing the completed work/build/project in on the and SIGNED UP to TENDER and the TENDER AMOUNT.

Ive been there (my build and extension work),done it and got the t-shirt,at this stage.I had everyting listed on my tender that was needed and wanted for my renovation/build project.My architect and structural engineer did up my house plans,submitted them to the council,placed the ads in the newspapers,then consulted with me loads of times and then once we were all happy and ready to go,he also put out my work to tender:)

We picked out and met/interviewed 10 different builders (also viewed their work and spoke to some clients) out of the many builders that submitted tender prices for my build.

TENDERING is the way to go,if you are doing a propper build and want to save alot of money,trust me.The builder had to bring in my house renovation and build on budget and did so too.Once you and the builder sign the tender,then the builder is legally commited to that price for the fully completed work

wirehairmax · 05-01-2011 1:18am

I'm afraid you're wrong on this one my friend. If a contingency sum has been included by the client as a provisional sum then thats all well and good but its still the clients money to be spent and does not come out of the builders pocket. Also what happens when the contingency sum is insufficent to cover unforseen extras and/or variations?
Consider this scenario: An extension and renovation has commenced on a 4 bed semi-d house in the city. During the excavations an old drain which had been undiscovered until being excavated, is found to run adjacent to the main foundation inside the line of the new extension and is under a large portion of the new floor area. The drain and the area around it is contaminated and requires complete removal by excavation and disposal by an environmental clean up specialist. Also any further soft spots are required to be excavated and removed off-site also. The excavated portion is now 8 times the size of the proposed foundation. The structural engineer recommends that the excavation be filled with compacted semi-dry 20N concrete to the underside of the new foundation. He also details a reinforced foundation containing 1.5 tons of re-bar instead of a layer of mesh as originally detailed. All of this work is costed by the builder and found to cost an additional €5800. There is no contingency sum included in the tender documents. The costs are agreed by the builder, the architect and the client and the client bears the cost. 1 week later the builder comes across evidence of dry-rot in the roof timbers which had been hidden by attic flooring put down by the client for storage many years ago. The attic had been full of the clients belongings until the renovations began and was inaccessible until a clear out. A specialist dry-rot contractor is brought in to treat the problem but it also requires some timbers to be replaced. The treatment costs €1500 and the builders work costs €620. Again the client has to bear the cost of this repair as there was no mention of dry-rot treatment or repair in the tender documents.
What you are correct about is that the builder has to complete the project to an acceptable standard and any work he carries out must comply with the Building Regulations. A previous poster also mentioned rock which a builder would also be perfectly entitled to claim for. I know what I’m talking about here as I have been doing this all my life and am also a civil engineer with 13 years contracting experience.

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 1:22am

Ok so I must be wrong then,Im living in a complete and utter fantasy world,so too is my architect and my builder.My tender was all wrong then obviously.

I must have dreamt all this,and should be expecting my builder to knock on my door tomorrow with the bill for all the extra work that had to be done.Even though he did all the unforseen work,finished the house off to a beautifull turnkey finish and signed off on the fully completed job (as per the tender) and has been paid and the certs have been issued.
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I aint dreaming,thats the thing.I speak from 1st hand experience of this matter too,as a very happy client.Im the one that got a beautifully finished house and saved tons of money in the end,thanks to the tender process and how it works.;)

Tendering obviously doesnt work or save money so.
I,ll say no more now,I,ll just bow my head in shame now,and quietly giggle away to myself so.

bruschi · 05-01-2011 9:57am

paddy147 wrote: »

Ok so I must be wrong then,Im living in a complete and utter fantasy world,so too is my architect and my builder.My tender was all wrong then obviously.

I must have dreamt all this,and should be expecting my builder to knock on my door tomorrow with the bill for all the extra work that had to be done.Even though he did all the unforseen work,finished the house off to a beautifull turnkey finish and signed off on the fully completed job (as per the tender) and has been paid and the certs have been issued.
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I aint dreaming,thats the thing.I speak from 1st hand experience of this matter too,as a very happy client.Im the one that got a beautifully finished house and saved tons of money in the end,thanks to the tender process and how it works.;)

Tendering obviously doesnt work or save money so.
I,ll say no more now,I,ll just bow my head in shame now,and quietly giggle away to myself so.

that wasnt the point wirehairmax was making. Tendering does help matters and can save money. It sorts out issues before anything on site happens.

tell me this, was the contingency you allowed paid to the builder? What would have happened if there was no extras, would you still have given this contingency money to the builder? Provisional sums are what the name suggest, provisional. Its conditional money, that may or may not be used. It is a good idea to allow for provisional sums, but just because you got all your extras included, does not make it a standard issue for anyone else, and it is wrong to say that a builder is liable for unforeseen extras. You managed to get the builder to include extras for you, and that probably took haggling and talking to him about it. It worked for you, but it will not be the case 100% for everyone.

Like I said in my previous post, your points and information on going tendering and getting architects and engineers in is useful, but to say builders must undertake costs of unforeseen work is incorrect.

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 8:28pm

Sorry,but there was no haggling involved with the unforseen extras,the builder was and is a professional and understood that he was/is responsible for bringing in the project on time and on the tender spec and tender agreement and price that we both signed off on.

No haggling involved or needed.

My contingency fund was used to build a nice new porch and also towards a nice big garage with power,water and leccy roller shutter doors.These were extras,that I decided to afford myself halfway through the buld.My architect/structural engineer friend designed me a lovely high pitched roof porch with tripple glazed stained glass features in it,fully insulated,radiator and thermal composite entrance door.

My tender saved me so much money that I allowed myself to employ my structural engineer friend to over see things on site,and also a new porch with stained glass features and a big new garage,just as a little treat to myself.Still had plenty of money left over after all that.:)

Got a very well finished/turnkey finished house and the extras too,and money still in my pocket,and I owe it all to the tendering process,and the keen eye of my structural engineer.

Tendering also sorts out the problem of the client NOT having to go hunting down builders for work and also shows the wide and varying range of prices that builder will chage the client for a complete project.The builders (loads in my case) come to you for the work.

I had builders from all corners of the country,northern ireland,and even a buiding firm from Wales looking for the work through my tender.

Tendering also shows that some builders still think they are in the "Celtic Tiger" era too,with regards prices and costings.

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 8:40pm

I have recommended tendering to 2 friends of mine who are currently renovating and also house building at the moment.

They too went down the tender route (after seeing what I got done and what I saved) and were GOBSMACKED by how much money they are now saving,thanks to the whole tender process.:D

Tefral · 05-01-2011 8:46pm

As a Quantity Surveyor Paddy 147 is correct. You can write contracts that put the risk on the Contractor.

The Irish Government has such contracts that place the risk on the contractors if something is ommitted from the Bill of Quantities, however it must be on the drawings or the specifications.

The RIAI contract (which most domestic contracts are done in) doesnt have this though.

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 8:58pm

cronin_j wrote: »

As a Quantity Surveyor Paddy 147 is correct. You can write contracts that put the risk on the Contractor.

The Irish Government has such contracts that place the risk on the contractors if something is ommitted from the Bill of Quantities, however it must be on the drawings or the specifications.

The RIAI contract (which most domestic contracts are done in) doesnt have this though.

Thankyou.:)

I knew what I wanted design wize,and I was in control with regards what I wanted and did not want when it came to layout,fittings and fixtures.

I also had an absolutely BRILLIANT and CLUED Up architect and structural engineer who was on board at the very 1st stage,from inital design to planning application,to drafting up of the tender and sending it out,looking through all the 10 page tender quotes that came back from all the different builders who decided to apply for my tender/project,to interviewing the builders in person on my site,going to other sites and builds to inspect the various interviewed builders recent and ongoing work,to overseeing the builder on my project (especually at excavation,foundation pouring and structural steel work time) and then all the site visits the he did to oversee the various tardes people and their work/instalations,and then final cerfification time and sign off.

It pays to have a good and clued up structural engineer and architect on board with regards tendering,and the tendering process pays too,in the end.
Thats my 1st hand experience of the tender process as a client/customer/house owner.

Thanks again.:)

P.S-My architect/engineer had LOADS of industrial sized floor plans and layouts (printed off a CAD plotter) for various aspects my project,even had 2 designs/floor plans for my porch,thats how serious and good he was/is.The various trades were given a copy of the plans/layout and that way there was no hald arsed messing about and presuming,everyone knew what they were doing and exactly what they had to do.

Tefral · 05-01-2011 9:05pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Thankyou.:)

I also had an absolutely BRILLIANT and CLUED Up architect and structural engineer who was on board at the very 1st stage,from inital design to planning application,to drasfting up of the tender and sending it out,looking through all the 10 page tender quotes that came back from all the different builders who decided to apply for my tender,to interviewing the builders,going to other sites and builds to inspect their recent and ongoing work,to overseeing the builder on my project(especually at foundation pouring and structural steel work time) and then all the site visits the he did and then cerfification time and sign off.

It pays to have a good and clued up structural engineer and architect on board,and the tendering process pays too.

Thanks again.:)

I am curious as to the contract that was used, was it an ammended RIAI form of contract? Ammending contracts is highly risky and it usually works against the person who ammends them if a dispute occurs. The courts will find that contracts that unfairly place risk on one party and then usually use this against the person who ammends the contracts when settling the dispute.

At the moment the GCCC form of government contract is working, however in the industry its widely believed when things pick up and contractors are no longer begging for work that it will be arbitration all round.

No standard form of contract that I know of puts the liability on the contractor to pick up the cost of unforseen Change Orders.

Poor Uncle Tom · 05-01-2011 9:05pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Unforseen extras are NOT the clients responsibility.

cronin_j wrote: »

.....if something is ommitted from the Bill of Quantities

Ye're talking about two totally different things here. BOQ ommitions cannot be called unforseen extras and cronin j's post cannot be seen as addressing "unforseen extras".

Tefral · 05-01-2011 9:09pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Ye're talking about two totally different things here. BOQ ommitions cannot be called unforseen extras and cronin j's post cannot be seen as addressing "unforseen extras".

No I wasnt backing Paddy 147 up using that example, i mearly stated that it was possible to write a contract to place the risk on the contractor for unforseen works, i cant imagine when it goes to tender that you would have too many contractors wanting to price the work.

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 9:20pm

cronin_j wrote: »

i cant imagine when it goes to tender that you would have too many contractors wanting to price the work.

In this day and age,you would be very surprised.;)

I couldnt believe when the tender was sent out by my engineer/architect,the amount of tender quotes that came in,and the amount of builders who wanted to pay a visit to meet me and my architect/engineer and get the job asap.

I was also flooded with qoutes from window companies,insulation companies,property management companies,electrical contractors,plumbers,solar companies,carpentry companies and other people and trades that I cant remember at this moment.

Me and my girlfriend spent alot of time sifting through the letters and quotes that came in and the price variations on the tenders for the various trades was unreal and quite shocking to see.

Some trades people still living in the "Celtic Tiger" era even though we are 3 years on from that.

Tefral · 05-01-2011 9:25pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Some trades people still living in the "Celtic Tiger" era even though we are 3 years on from that.

I'll whole heartidly agree with you on that! The prices I see coming back for Tenders is unreal. Some would completely shock you!

paddy147 · 05-01-2011 9:27pm

My last/parting word on this is as follows............

If you are about to commence a new build,or a renovation/extension, then you should give serious thought/consideration to the tender process and how it can and will save you money,if you do your tender up precisely and correctly.

You wont have to go looking for builders and trades people,they will come running to you.

Thats my experience of it,and Im a very very happy client/customer and house owner now.

Thanks for reading and best of luck to any of you who are currently building/renovating or about to build/renovate.:)

bruschi · 05-01-2011 10:48pm

paddy147 wrote: »

.Any unforseen extras or work are the builders problem,not yours.

cronin_j wrote: »

As a Quantity Surveyor Paddy 147 is correct. You can write contracts that put the risk on the Contractor.

The Irish Government has such contracts that place the risk on the contractors if something is ommitted from the Bill of Quantities, however it must be on the drawings or the specifications.

The RIAI contract (which most domestic contracts are done in) doesnt have this though.

cronin_j wrote: »

No standard form of contract that I know of puts the liability on the contractor to pick up the cost of unforseen Change Orders.

the government standard form for minor works I have never seen being used on domestic houses, and whether or not it is used, it does not cover unforeseen extras as cronin_j says in the second post. like I said previously, it may have worked in yor instance paddy, but it is far from the norm and I wold certainly not advise anyone building who uses a tender process that a builder will pick up unforseen costs. in the highlighted bit, any omissions from the BOQ must only be picked up by the contractor if it is in drawings or spec, thereby making it seen, and not a hidden cost.

paddy147 wrote: »

My last/parting word on this is as follows............

If you are about to commence a new build,or a renovation/extension, then you should give serious thought/consideration to the tender process and how it can and will save you money,if you do your tender up precisely and correctly.

You wont have to go looking for builders and trades people,they will come running to you.

Thats my experience of it,and Im a very very happy client/customer and house owner now.

Thanks for reading and best of luck to any of you who are currently building/renovating or about to build/renovate.:)

Dead right, whether or not it is with a builder, or just by direct labour and tendering each subcontract package separately, it is certainly worthwhile to do some sort of tendering process and pay that bit extra on fees to make sure you dont run into problems in the middle of a job.

Poor Uncle Tom · 06-01-2011 12:10am

After reading through the recent parts of this thread I would like to point out the following:

1. Unforseen extras are not a builders/contractors problem, they are usually back on the client to handle. Unless you can get a solicitor to set up a contract for a builder/contractor to pay blindly for unforseen extras (highly unlikely that any builder would sign that contract).

2. paddy147 gets a 2 week ban for post No. 65. Every posters contribution is valued and all are treated equal. That snide condescending attitude is not accepted here.

Frank Ryan Jr · 10-02-2011 7:56pm

I'm hoping to get an extension done on my semi-d that will
extend the current back kitchen/diner out the same distance again
and also to build a solid awning at the side of the house, effectivly
blocking the side entrance (but keeping a side door thru to the back)

Budget 30K.

Nuts or do-able would you say?

Sigursdan · 10-02-2011 8:25pm

Hi all,
I'm new here (so go easy!).

I'm looking to start an extension & renovation project to an old house (80sqm existing, 120 sqm new, two storey, located in Co. Louth) and earlier this week recieved a quote for €160,000... this excludes: windows, external doors, kitchen, sanitary fittings, flooring, tiling, painting) otherwise finished, insulation levels exceed building regs by about 50%, fully (re) plumbed and wired. Work to existing was drylining and laying a new insulated concrete floor and dpm, removing 1 strucural wall and opening up a new doorway through an existing window ope.

It seems a very high price to me - considering we are supplying alot of the materials either ourselves or sourcing separately (windows & doors)

At that price we're approaching what we paid for the original house!

I thought building prices were supposed to have fallen - or at least thats what my Bank is telling me! Or am I just dreaming?

Anyones opinion or input would be warmly welcomed - Thanks a mil!

Poor Uncle Tom · 10-02-2011 8:37pm

Frank Ryan Jr wrote: »

I'm hoping to get an extension done on my semi-d that will
extend the current back kitchen/diner out the same distance again
and also to build a solid awning at the side of the house, effectivly
blocking the side entrance (but keeping a side door thru to the back)

Budget 30K.

Nuts or do-able would you say?

What is the floor area of the extension?
Is the extension to be single or two storey?
What is the make up of the solid awning?
Is the awning to be joined to the extension?

archtech · 11-02-2011 7:51pm

Sigursdan wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm new here (so go easy!).

I'm looking to start an extension & renovation project to an old house (80sqm existing, 120 sqm new, two storey, located in Co. Louth) and earlier this week recieved a quote for €160,000... this excludes: windows, external doors, kitchen, sanitary fittings, flooring, tiling, painting) otherwise finished, insulation levels exceed building regs by about 50%, fully (re) plumbed and wired. Work to existing was drylining and laying a new insulated concrete floor and dpm, removing 1 strucural wall and opening up a new doorway through an existing window ope.

It seems a very high price to me - considering we are supplying alot of the materials either ourselves or sourcing separately (windows & doors)

At that price we're approaching what we paid for the original house!

I thought building prices were supposed to have fallen - or at least thats what my Bank is telling me! Or am I just dreaming?

Anyones opinion or input would be warmly welcomed - Thanks a mil!

First of all you you haven't said how many quotes you got, or if the price was the lowest. Ideally you should get between 3 and 5. Extensions and alterations to dwellings are harder to gauge prices for, compared to new builds. Factors like access to the dwelling and proposed extension can dramatically effect cost, as can how the proposed extension is tie into the existing.
I won't say the price is excessively high, in terms of construction, labour prices have fallen, how materials haven't dropped as much as one would expect.

Sigursdan · 14-02-2011 4:07pm

Hi Archtech,

Thanks for your response. That quote was the first one I got back - I am currently waiting on 5 more. I suppose I just saw it and panicked but I do know that an extension project is not as straight forward as a new build and therefore more costly. I'll be interested to see what the other quotes come back at - if they are knocking around the same figure we'll seriously have to consider going direct labour.

Do you think there is any merit in hiring a QS privately to cost the materials alone? this at least might allow us to see where we are at before adding the labour cost?

Many thanks for the advice

kangojones · 18-02-2011 1:39am

for 25 k cash ,lets see you have no redress if anything goes wrong down the line and im talking 3 5 years on ,we have recently looked at a job where the client thought they got a great deal on their exstension,now 5 yrs on we have to take off the roof ,refit the veluxes .install vapour barrier etc you pay peanuts you get monkeys me thinks....;)

gabbo is coming · 18-02-2011 10:18pm

Built an extension, 30 sq meters. Lean-to. Entire width of house. Took out the entire back wall of the house.

Took a few meters off sitting room, that combined with the old kitchen came to 40 sq meters. Price included full renovation of 40 sq meters (i.e. plastering, electrics, flooring of 40 sq meters), did not include kitchen (2.8k - IKEA, superb quality, 18 cabinets), rads (900 - B&Q Belfast) or tiles (600 - B&Q Dublin) - included everything else including internal painting.

34k for build.

South Co. Dub.

Oh, price also included reflooring hall, so flooring total was 50 sq meters.

Sellphone · 23-02-2011 3:49pm

Looking at building small extension at back of house, around 120 sq. ft.to use as utility room. Do I need an architect? any idea of costs?(North county Dublin/Meath area)Was going to re-cycle existing kitchen cabinets in the utility room and buy from Ikea new units for the existing kitchen. Anyone know what Ikea fitters are like? Is tendering necessary? Or jut get a shed load of quotes?
Apologies for all the questions but I need to get this out of the way one road or the other

JICCN · 05-03-2011 1:06am

gabbo is coming wrote: »

Built an extension, 30 sq meters. Lean-to. Entire width of house. Took out the entire back wall of the house.

Took a few meters off sitting room, that combined with the old kitchen came to 40 sq meters. Price included full renovation of 40 sq meters (i.e. plastering, electrics, flooring of 40 sq meters), did not include kitchen (2.8k - IKEA, superb quality, 18 cabinets), rads (900 - B&Q Belfast) or tiles (600 - B&Q Dublin) - included everything else including internal painting.

34k for build.

South Co. Dub.

Oh, price also included reflooring hall, so flooring total was 50 sq meters.

Looking at doing the same kind of extension in the same area. Any chance you could PM me details of who you used. Thanks

paddy147 · 10-03-2011 10:55pm

Im saying nothng more on this matter,because whatever I say,it will only lead to trouble and me getting into it,yet again.

All i will say now is this.............................

Best of luck to those of you who are in the process of extending or about to commence extending or building work.

You can save ALOT of money nowadays.I did with my method and way of doing things.:D

Thanks.

1chippy · 11-03-2011 9:39pm

Sellphone wrote: »

Looking at building small extension at back of house, around 120 sq. ft.to use as utility room. Do I need an architect? any idea of costs?(North county Dublin/Meath area)Was going to re-cycle existing kitchen cabinets in the utility room and buy from Ikea new units for the existing kitchen. Anyone know what Ikea fitters are like? Is tendering necessary? Or jut get a shed load of quotes?
Apologies for all the questions but I need to get this out of the way one road or the other

You shouldnt need planning unless you have already had an extension put on the back which may lead to you exceeding floor area acceptablewithout planning.
i have fitted a few ikea kitchens and would never use them again. by the time all the costs are combined it is a better job to go directly to a kitchen manufacturer who will install and make the whole thing to what i believe is a far better spec

touchwood · 15-03-2011 12:19pm

how would you go about the tendering process? and would it be worth your while just for an extension to back of house?

GReid2005 · 27-03-2011 10:20pm

Hi all,
First time poster. I'm considering building an extension to our 4 bed dormer which now feels a hell of alot smaller when you add a toddler, a baby and labrador into the mix. What we're considering is a rear extension, we plan on extending the sitting room out by 9ft and extending the kitchen up paralell with it. this will add 384sq ft to the ground floor. I am also toying with the idea of putting in a utility room as at present the washing machine sits in an area no larger than a hot press with a hole in the ground as opposed to pipes leading to outside drains, this results in some unpleasant smells wafting through the house. This would be in the rear part of the current kitchen ( behind internal door in right room of pic). Some groundworks will need to be completed as the kitchen sink doesn't have an outside drain either. Downstairs would need to be completely finished apart from fitted kitchen and flooring for kitchen and sitting room. Upstairs would need a new roof so as to allow a bedroom above the kitchen/sitting room, but this would be left as attic space for the time being with just first fixing electrical work and 4 large velux windows being put into it at the time of construction of the extension. I've included a pic of the house so you can try imagine what I'm trying to do. We're living in the Laois/Offaly area. What kind of money would I need to build this extension? Would 50K be sufficient? I'm only at the contemplation stage at the moment. Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

f9710145 · 16-04-2011 5:28pm

another query here - we're considering purchasing a house that comes with pp for a first floor extension, house (typical 4 bed semi in north dub) already built out to the side so building over that. Basically 2 new rooms, 1 window in each, staircase that turns to the right a few steps from top will now also turn to the left to a landing big enough for the doors into the new rooms. Bathroom will be moved so that it's now where a small room exists and the window will need to be realigned. Also an interior, non-load bearing wall to be moved a couple of feet. Also the roof would need to be extended over the new bit.
Could anyone hazard a guess at an approximate price? That price will determine whether we go for the house or not.
Also, the plans that are in for the house are not what we'd like to do so we'll need to reapply. However in terms of external work the only difference is that we won't require a window at the side as we don't want the en-suite in the plans. Internally we'll have the to be moved non-load bearing wall maybe a foot from where it is in the plans and we'll have the bathroom wall/door further back, again just non-load bearing walls. Also the plans have the removal of a load bearing wall that we would leave where it is. Does anyone know what an architect would charge to just make these small changes to the plans, it's literally moving a couple of lines on the paper? Would our best bet be to go back to the original architect?

Thanks for any advice,
T

Carlow52 · 16-04-2011 7:49pm

f9710145 wrote: »

another query here - we're considering purchasing a house that comes with pp for a first floor extension, house (typical 4 bed semi in north dub) already built out to the side so building over that. Basically 2 new rooms, 1 window in each, staircase that turns to the right a few steps from top will now also turn to the left to a landing big enough for the doors into the new rooms. Bathroom will be moved so that it's now where a small room exists and the window will need to be realigned. Also an interior, non-load bearing wall to be moved a couple of feet. Also the roof would need to be extended over the new bit.
Could anyone hazard a guess at an approximate price? That price will determine whether we go for the house or not.
Also, the plans that are in for the house are not what we'd like to do so we'll need to reapply. However in terms of external work the only difference is that we won't require a window at the side as we don't want the en-suite in the plans. Internally we'll have the to be moved non-load bearing wall maybe a foot from where it is in the plans and we'll have the bathroom wall/door further back, again just non-load bearing walls. Also the plans have the removal of a load bearing wall that we would leave where it is. Does anyone know what an architect would charge to just make these small changes to the plans, it's literally moving a couple of lines on the paper? Would our best bet be to go back to the original architect?

Thanks for any advice,
T

2 questions,
can u give us some idea of the size of the ext as well as current roof vs new roof.

What comfort have u that the walls of the existing extn will carry the load of new extn, does planning say anything about light weight block to be used etc?

f9710145 · 16-04-2011 8:32pm

Carlow - thanks for replying
The overall extension is 28sqm. The roof is pitched (or hipped or whatever the correct phrase is) on front, back and unattached side, the new elevations keep the same pitch, with the roof just longer along the straight than it was before - hope you get what I mean by that, not easy to describe 3d, kinda like it was just stretched along the straight.
I haven't read about types of block used so can't answer that. I do know that one of the planning docs includes details about the existing foundations and they're the same as what is under the main house so for now am assuming that they are sufficient to support what's detailed in the plans. Also same family put in the original extension and pp for the new one so I figure they had future extension in mind. But will hopefully have surveyor confirm all that, assuming surveyor can do that.

T

rural_red · 18-04-2011 11:26am

kfc1 wrote: »

Thanks to all who replied - just thought I'd post a quick update. Builders have completed and pulled out today, 5 weeks from start to finish, extension ended up being 330 sq feet, price 25,000 (cash) this included adding a window & new rad in the old kitchen, blocking up window & doorway so we could put double doors in a diffent location and installing new fitted kitchen. We are absolutely delighted with how things have gone and are yet to find fault with anything.

As someone else has stated, this arrangement has no comebacks. While you are happy now, bear in mind that problems with the construction (if there are any) are now covered up. You are coming into summer and probably won't see issues ( if there are any) arise until the winter extremes of rain and frost by which time your builder may not be reachable. I hope that this is not the case but 25000 sounds dangerously cheap.

coolemon · 11-06-2011 11:44pm

Hi. Excellent thread here btw.

We are looking to get a kitchen extension of about 18ft by 6ft - so 102sqft altogether. It will require the knocking out of the entire ground floor rear wall of the house and the insertion of an rsj structure for support. It will also require two load bearing walls knocked through inside the house, and rsj beams put in place.

We have an engineer drawing plans for the beams at the moment - but how much would we be looking at for this sort of job?

Other things need to be done in the house aswell like new boiler/plumbing/rads, roof, fuseboard, windows, external wall drylinging etc.

In South Dublin City

Sgt Pepper 64 · 17-06-2011 4:07pm

coolemon wrote: »

Hi. Excellent thread here btw.

We are looking to get a kitchen extension of about 18ft by 6ft - so 102sqft altogether. It will require the knocking out of the entire ground floor rear wall of the house and the insertion of an rsj structure for support. It will also require two load bearing walls knocked through inside the house, and rsj beams put in place.

We have an engineer drawing plans for the beams at the moment - but how much would we be looking at for this sort of job?

Other things need to be done in the house aswell like new boiler/plumbing/rads, roof, fuseboard, windows, external wall drylinging etc.

In South Dublin City

My advice - Get an architect in for a proper job

Very, very roughly €100/sq.ft

and look here for advice

<SNIP>

Mod edit: Please dont post links to other discussion forums.

karlitob · 01-09-2011 8:11pm

f9710145 wrote: »

Carlow - thanks for replying
The overall extension is 28sqm. The roof is pitched (or hipped or whatever the correct phrase is) on front, back and unattached side, the new elevations keep the same pitch, with the roof just longer along the straight than it was before - hope you get what I mean by that, not easy to describe 3d, kinda like it was just stretched along the straight.
I haven't read about types of block used so can't answer that. I do know that one of the planning docs includes details about the existing foundations and they're the same as what is under the main house so for now am assuming that they are sufficient to support what's detailed in the plans. Also same family put in the original extension and pp for the new one so I figure they had future extension in mind. But will hopefully have surveyor confirm all that, assuming surveyor can do that.

T

Hey there,

Thinking of doing something similar. Could you give advice on general cost on extension over garage please.

Brazzer · 12-09-2011 10:23am

kfc1 wrote: »

Thanks to all who replied - just thought I'd post a quick update. Builders have completed and pulled out today, 5 weeks from start to finish, extension ended up being 330 sq feet, price 25,000 (cash) this included adding a window & new rad in the old kitchen, blocking up window & doorway so we could put double doors in a diffent location and installing new fitted kitchen. We are absolutely delighted with how things have gone and are yet to find fault with anything.

Hiya, just wondering if you could PM me the name of the builder you used and also, 2 years on how are you getting on with the work, are there any problems? How much was the value of the kitchen included in the 25k total?

Many thanks :-)

smelly sock · 04-01-2012 1:54pm

Hello,

Any help on the below would be great. I'm starting to save and budget for an extension. I know people in the window trade and would be happy enough to get brother and cousin in to do flooring etc. I also know a plumber.

64sq metre extension. Structural work only. Will be looking after wiring , Windows , flooring and kitchen myself.

It's a 2 story extension to an existing 3 bed semi detached. 32 square metres being added to ground floor. This will consist of 1 room which will be an extra living room. The kitchen will also be extended. The top floor of the exention will be a bedroom with ensuite bathroom.

For the structural work + insulation I'm hoping for a budget of around 30-35,000 euro.

Can this be done?

Secondly If I were toget extension done with builders finish how much extra would this cost?

Any helo would be great.

I'm in the north kildare area.

focus_mad · 05-01-2012 7:21am

smelly sock wrote: »

Hello,

Any help on the below would be great. I'm starting to save and budget for an extension. I know people in the window trade and would be happy enough to get brother and cousin in to do flooring etc. I also know a plumber.

64sq metre extension. Structural work only. Will be looking after wiring , Windows , flooring and kitchen myself.

It's a 2 story extension to an existing 3 bed semi detached. 32 square metres being added to ground floor. This will consist of 1 room which will be an extra living room. The kitchen will also be extended. The top floor of the exention will be a bedroom with ensuite bathroom.

You will also have to include in the budget an amount for the planning permission application as it is over the exempt sizing.

Extension - are we dreaming?

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