Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

interlocked

corktina wrote: »

no there isnt....not VIABLE railfrieght anyway. Name one flow that could be instigated where trucks wouldnt be quicker and/or cheaper. This country is too small, the longest possible railhaul from port to customer would be about 100 miles.

Oh,the potential flows are there all right. You don't think that logistics companies seek to run trains as a hobby do you!

I strongly suspect that events in the next 12 months may make your original statement look very foolish. And they're going to come out of left field...

BTW, who knows, we may even see a freight marketing blitz by Irish Rail in the near future, promoting the only profitable arm of their operation. The penny is very, very slowly dropping in that organisation, more out of necessity than anything else.

corktina

i dont think so... please give examples rather than making a bland coverall statement

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

So evisceration of transport infrastructure is what "luck and good sense" consists of?

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

Transportuser09

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

What costed the budget of a small country?

But to be realistic, infrastructure by it's very nature costs a hefty amount of money to get operational. I think this has been done to death, people are entitled to their opinions, but I think that it's too early to judge the success or otherwise of the WRC. Its provided a framework to build and improve upon in the future. A brand new rail line would have cut journey times but would have cost much, much more.

Its not always about money, CIÉ has a certain amount of social obligation to ensure that places like Nenagh, Roscrea, Wellington Bridge, etc... have some form of transport service. Hospitals cost the state money too, should we get rid of them? It would save money would it not. Motorways cost alot of money to get operational too. As do Airport terminals. I could go on.

On a different note, I am puzzled sometimes when the Coolooney-Claremorris bit is still brought into the debate - it was never given approval for reopening under the T21 plan. The cycle-way is a good use of the alignment, walkways have been done on other closed lines, its not likely to ever reopen to rail travel. I am surprised Tuam-Claremorris was part of T21.

foggy_lad

Transportuser09 wrote: »

No, was not closed until last September. The reason it remained open from the 1970s on was that the sugar beet industry made the line remotely profitable to run. That went five years ago and since then the line was less economical to run (yes that may have been IÉ's fault but that's another story). They didn't keep it open to simply give staff "something to do". I do not know where you got that idea from.

I'm sure even those opposed to its reopening would not be in favour on the WRC closing so soon, you're actually advocating that it's sensible to close something after so much money was recently spent rebuilding it?

All I am saying is the line is not and never will be profitable and realistically is of little value as infrastructure so rather than have this and other useless lines bleed the company and the country dry it would be better if the line had not been reopened and it will be cheaper in the long run to close the lines instead of throwing more good money after bad.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

It's not the case though, is it? Certainly has not been the case in the currently operational segment of the thread's subject.

foggy_lad wrote: »

All I am saying is the line is not and never will be profitable

Nobody has any evidence of that. The only way to judge such a thing is to get the railway and its competing modes completely out of the public sector, and thus away from market distortion by the government; but if nobody's going to do that, then no complaints about any piece of transport infrastructure/operation failing to be "profitable" ought to be raised. (Show us one that is indeed "profitable" in that case.)

corktina

you are about to see a change in Govt....if the alleged policy towards railways stays the same, will you accept that that is the will of the people and stop being on about "government distortion"?

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

On a different note, I am puzzled sometimes when the Coolooney-Claremorris bit is still brought into the debate - it was never given approval for reopening under the T21 plan. The cycle-way is a good use of the alignment, walkways have been done on other closed lines, its not likely to ever reopen to rail travel. I am surprised Tuam-Claremorris was part of T21.

Definitley me guilty of keeping this on the WRC agenda, glad you agree with the fact it is not ever going to be re-opened T21 actually states preserve and protecet the alignment and there is no actual mention of ever re-opening it - even West on Track don't directly claim its going to happen and constantly demand that phase 2 and 3 gets completed (ie Athenry ~Tuam and ~Tuam - Claremorris), they will not however give up their long cherished aim to open the line the whole way. If they would at least have the dignity to give up on this absolute no-hoper and back the greenway I think they would gain more respect from other quarters. alas this is not going to happen. A greenway with huge focus on using the railway heritage though would be a great use as many of us agree here, but there is a mindset out there that will not change, and the opportunity is slipping by.

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

In the alternative, if the Poolbeg incinerator is knocked on the head Tara trains could haul hundreds of tonnes of baled refuse a day from North Wall to the incinerator near Slane. There must surely be efficiency in loading a train that is heading back empty anyway.

This would need to use separate wagons - you couldn't have a situation that could lead to lead dust in the incinerator. But would be eminently possible with a train of half and half (or perhaps one third / two thirds, given that a wagon of lead ore is so much heavier than one of rubbish).

From Tara: [Lead ore(full)] x 5 + [Rubbish(empty)] x 10 + [Loco]

From Dublin: [Lead ore(empty)] x 5 + [Rubbish(full)] x 10 + [Loco]

dowlingm

Never thought of the lead dust angle. Depending on bale size I guess the bales could be put into clean "liners" fitted to drop into the wagons with the bales then lifted out of the liners and the liners washed and roadfreighted to North Wall for preloading of the next run but that would be more complex.

westtip

Good piece in Western People about the huge success of Newport Mulranny Greenway this week "With the Great Western Greenway bringing huge volumes of visitors to Muranny" is one of its phrases.

my guess is there are more people using the Great Western Greenway than the rail line from Ennis to Athenry.

dowlingm

westtip wrote: »

Good piece in Western People about the huge success of Newport Mulranny Greenway this week "With the Great Western Greenway bringing huge volumes of visitors to Muranny" is one of its phrases.

my guess is there are more people using the Great Western Greenway than the rail line from Ennis to Athenry.

Any idea what huge is defined as in Mulranny? 10 people a month? a week? a day? an hour? Being familiar with local newspapers (like "the Avondhu" ) scale means something different to that level of media.

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

Any idea what huge is defined as in Mulranny? 10 people a month? a week? a day? an hour? Being familiar with local newspapers (like "the Avondhu" ) scale means something different to that level of media.

Try this for huge (in mulranny terms) I got this email from the walking officer at Mayo county council in January, I have taken my personal name and the name of the walking officer you can contact her via Mayococo.ie for verification, if you want a copy of the email PM me. I doubt the ennis - Athenry line has 100 users a day.

To answer your question the greenway a week its about 2,500, per month its about 10,000 in the summer and the figures keep going up, I don't know the percentage that stay overnight in the area but again this is anedotal evidence on one ocassion I did the trail I met a lady who ran a B&B in Newport - she had closed her business but re-opened it this year and has turned people away every weekend ....contribution to local economy versus some tuppeny bit railway???? work it out for yoruself. A shopkeeper in Newport told me his increase in sales in incrementals like bottles of coke, water, chocolate and crisps - snacking food with high margins had increase by about 200 a day in the summer this year. When I asked him - he said its people like you who have done the trail just dropping in for a coke and mars bar type thing, he said "its completely changed tourism in this town"

this is the copy of an email I received in January 2011 from the Mayo Coco walking officer:

Hi xxxxx

Just to give you an idea of the usage along the Great Western Greenway, during mid week of holiday times we have recorded up on 300 participants using the facility. On most weekends there are up on a 1000 users. We are also experiencing quiet a number of groups organizing events along the facility for fund raising purposes.

Also within the west mayo area, a new bike hire operator has recently established and there are up on three people working directly within that business.

Regards,


xxxxxxxx

DM are these the kind of figures you had in mind??? I was arguing for the Greenway on the WRC long before this Greenway opened, if peope woke up to the realities of what the west of Ireland needs - better facilities for tourists to come and use - instead of chuntering on about a bloody branch line from athenry to claremorris and beyond, to pander to the demands of a very small minority of lets face it "railway enthusiasts" then we might actually do the west a favour, because any rationale argument for the western rail corridor has long since disappeared!

Judgement Day

westtip wrote: »

Try this for huge (in mulranny terms) I got this email from the walking officer at Mayo county council in January, I have taken my personal name and the name of the walking officer you can contact her via Mayococo.ie for verification, if you want a copy of the email PM me. I doubt the ennis - Athenry line has 100 users a day.

To answer your question the greenway a week its about 2,500, a month about 10,000 in the summer and the figures keep going up, if 5% stay overnight its an exta 50 beds a night in the area sold....contribution to local economy versus some tuppeny bit railway???? work it out for yoruself

Jeez, if numbers keep going like that you'll be needing the rail service to Achill reinstated but you'll have to wait until we get the Burma Road done first.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jeez, if numbers keep going like that you'll be needing the rail service to Achill reinstated but you'll have to wait until we get the Burma Road done first.

Probably bigger numbers now than when it was a railway.:D

There's money in tourism once we realise that tourism is strictly out of bounds for tacky over priced Celtic Tiger Hotels and ****ty attractions propped up by grants and infected by self indulgence.

This Greenway idea is fantastic and as a railway fan I'd rather see it done (incorporating the lines history to some degree) than leaving it to the Wizard of Oz whims of WOT or the careless disregard of locals. If this opinion is interpreted as some sort of agenda against WOT then it only highlights a bizarre paranoia amongst WRC supporters.

Personally I don't think the WRC has anything to offer, but any initiative that preserves the alignment and offers a potential economic boost to the region should be embraced a lot quicker than the Celtic Tiger influenced railway demand from people who know absolutely nothing about either railways or reality.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Probably bigger numbers now than when it was a railway.:D

There's money in tourism once we realise that tourism is strictly out of bounds for tacky over priced Celtic Tiger Hotels and ****ty attractions propped up by grants and infected by self indulgence.

This Greenway idea is fantastic and as a railway fan I'd rather see it done (incorporating the lines history to some degree) than leaving it to the Wizard of Oz whims of WOT or the careless disregard of locals. If this opinion is interpreted as some sort of agenda against WOT then it only highlights a bizarre paranoia amongst WRC supporters.

Personally I don't think the WRC has anything to offer, but any initiative that preserves the alignment and offers a potential economic boost to the region should be embraced a lot quicker than the Celtic Tiger influenced railway demand from people who know absolutely nothing about either railways or reality.

DW thanks for that, indeed I am thinking now Greenway the whole line from Sligo to Athenry cos in reality having seen the latest news about another 15 billion needed for the banks, we all know now this project is not going to happen. I also agree that there is a big opp to really make a big thing of the railway heritage and get this done properly - it could be a massive tourist attraction, anyway I am convinced the tide is turning on this one.

I've still got no figures on usage of the Ennis - Athenry section - anyone been on it of late. Irish Rail sent me an email saying they will only give out consolidated figures as separate figures for each section of the line would be "commercially sensitive" as they were shouting from the rooftops about how successful the line was after it had opened for a month (in April last year) and we have not heard a dickie bird since it would seem to suggest the restaurant theory has kicked in. - New restaurant opens everyone tries it - then interest wains and wains and wains until the inevitable happens.

Incidently they said 110,000 journies were made on the Limerick - Galway route last year - in line with expectations - what would the guestimate of that volume be for

a) Limerick - Ennis journies
b) Athenry - Galway journies
c) The bit in the middle journies to either limerick or Galway.

The last anecdotal report I read on this thread was pretty dire for item (c).

BTW any idea when the transport policy will be published of various parties for the election - all lies anyway as we know from the past.

westtip

I have been having a number of emails back and forth with Irish Rail and the DOT about the usage figures on phase 1 of WRC. Of course jsut a civic interest to find out how success this "vital piece of infrastructure" is delivering on its service levels.

Irish Rail (IR) will only give an aggregate figure for the entire line (ie Ennis/Limerick commuting volume is now apparently all part of the success of the WRC phase 1), I have been informed the line - Limerick - Galway aggregate figure for usage in 2010 was 110,000
I quote from email received:

Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions

We do not have any broken down figures available

In April 2009 IR and WOT were shouting from the roof top about the massive uptake .....ahem so where are we now the novelty has worn off.

When challenged to provide information under the Freedom of information act I have been told are but IR are not covered under the FOI therefore we don't have to release the figures.

If the incremental volume on the line is say 30,000 journies a year - and this is a wild guess and my gut feeling is that it is very optimistic based on anecdotal evidence.

With 5 upward and 5 downward trains a day - over 360 days a year thats 3,600 trains a year, divided into 30,000 = 8.33 passengers per train on average. Of course in the rush hour there may be 12 people on a train and in the slower off peak times 4 people on a train - one thing is sure everyone will find a seat!

The reluctance and somewhat obstructive stance by IR to release the figures on the basis of "commercial sensitivity" is perhaps not as baffling as it might seem - they simply don't want the truth out there - this is the greatest white elephant ever built in Ireland and they don't want to have that much egg on their face.

wild handlin

Just an observation...
Why was there no "fuss" when Limerick-Ennis was mooted at being re-opened? From the day the line re-opened it's linespeed was slower than the N18, yet I don't seem to recall any outbursts here on boards at the time.

Sometimes I recon a select few on here for whatever reason are determined to see it fail...interestingly the criticism soon turned into a quiet whimper when it was announced in the first few months that the patronage surpassed expectations. Remember how many said "after the first week it will be empty!!"

Anyway, carry on...

westtip

wild handlin wrote: »

Just an observation...
Why was there no "fuss" when Limerick-Ennis was mooted at being re-opened? From the day the line re-opened it's linespeed was slower than the N18, yet I don't seem to recall any outbursts here on boards at the time.

Sometimes I recon a select few on here for whatever reason are determined to see it fail...interestingly the criticism soon turned into a quiet whimper when it was announced in the first few months that the patronage surpassed expectations. Remember how many said "after the first week it will be empty!!"

Anyway, carry on...

Ennis limerick made sense as a commuter branch line; the extension further north does not. There has been no such announcements about the patronage of the WRC north of Ennis surpassing expectations - yes after the first month numbers were seemingly good - but nothing since and anecdotal evidence shows poor patronage. It has nothing to do with speeds against the N18 - its about speeds versus a donkey and cart. The ludicrous claims made about the need for this line are simply mind boggling, it was however built - and the MOT clearly stated in May 09 and again in March 10 that the patronage and usage of this section of the line will be one of the key deciding factors on whether phase 2 and 3 takes place, this is why these figures need to be out in the open. If it is as WOT claimed it would be a stunning success then lets see the evidence - it has been up and running almost a year - so how many regular commuters does it have, how many people are using it at peak times, how many of the passengers are fare paying passengers. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask these questions. IR won't release the figures as they claim they are commercially sensitive. I am making an assumption and I might be wrong but the reason they won't release them is because they are frankly to embarrassed to admit abject failure.

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

Ennis limerick made sense as a commuter branch line; the extension further north does not. There has been no such announcements about the patronage of the WRC north of Ennis surpassing expectations - yes after the first month numbers were seemingly good - but nothing since and anecdotal evidence shows poor patronage. It has nothing to do with speeds against the N18 - its about speeds versus a donkey and cart. The ludicrous claims made about the need for this line are simply mind boggling, it was however built - and the MOT clearly stated in May 09 and again in March 10 that the patronage and usage of this section of the line will be one of the key deciding factors on whether phase 2 and 3 takes place, this is why these figures need to be out in the open. If it is as WOT claimed it would be a stunning success then lets see the evidence - it has been up and running almost a year - so how many regular commuters does it have, how many people are using it at peak times, how many of the passengers are fare paying passengers. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask these questions. IR won't release the figures as they claim they are commercially sensitive. I am making an assumption and I might be wrong but the reason they won't release them is because they are frankly to embarrassed to admit abject failure.

Just ask them for the 2009 figures for Ennis - Limerick. Do the maths and hey presto! At least it would provide some idea.

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

..interestingly the criticism soon turned into a quiet whimper when it was announced in the first few months that the patronage surpassed expectations....

Without specific figures that announcement and therefore your referencing of it, is about as useful as a fart in a hurricane.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just ask them for the 2009 figures for Ennis - Limerick. Do the maths and hey presto! At least it would provide some idea.

DW I have - and they are refusing to release them! Anyone else have them.

wild handlin

Ok.... Observation no.2...

Seeing as Ennis - Limerick made economic sence to re-open does that mean that Tuam - Galway makes economic sence? It's based on the same principle; you're linking a commuter town to a city...

DWCommuter

wild handlin wrote: »

Ok.... Observation no.2...

Seeing as Ennis - Limerick made economic sence to re-open does that mean that Tuam - Galway makes economic sence? It's based on the same principle; you're linking a commuter town to a city...

Technically Ennis - Limerick was never closed as some Limerick intercity services were regularly extended there in the 90s. So it was more a case of starting new passenger services. On top of that the track and signalling weren't renewed to any great degree. It was a poor service in the beginning that cost very little to implement and was gradually built up over the years in terms of investment.

And for the record I don't think anyone here actually said it made "economic sense". A comparison between the Ennis scenario and Tuam is not like with like and merely grasping at the "commuter" angle.

DWCommuter

westtip wrote: »

DW I have - and they are refusing to release them! Anyone else have them.

Thats shocking. I know they have the figures for Limerick - Ennis. Whack off an FOI request and **** them!

Judgement Day

DW and westtip saw this and thought of you.



http://www.iwrsim.graymacimage.com/iwrsimiwr.html

mgmt

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just ask them for the 2009 figures for Ennis - Limerick. Do the maths and hey presto! At least it would provide some idea.

PASSENGER TRAFFIC on the first phase of the Western Rail Corridor has exceeded expectations, Iarnród Éireann said yesterday.

A spokeswoman for the company said 16,000 journeys were made in the first month of the new Limerick-Galway service, which has been restored at a cost of €106.5 million.

The Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said: “The 16,000 passenger journeys recorded are on top of the existing 14,400 monthly journeys on the Limerick-Ennis service, meaning the through route has seen over 30,000 passenger journeys in its first month.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640188.html

14,400*12 = 172,800 (limerick -ennis)

but...

Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions

We do not have any broken down figures available

WTF


Haha I just read the CBA for this line. Someone should be sacked for approving this disaster.

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/Limerick-Galway_Socio-Economic_CBA.PDF

Judgement Day

And this pic of the Burma Road from IRN here: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2147/Railway-line-stolen-in-Campile

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Thats shocking. I know they have the figures for Limerick - Ennis. Whack off an FOI request and **** them!

I would send and FOI in fact I did this is the response I got from Barry kenny:

Dear XXXXX,


Thank you for your e-mail.

For your information, Iarnród Éireann is not subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.

I note your request to the Department of Transport under the Freedom of Information Act.


Regards,

Barry Kenny,

Manager, Corporate Communications,

Iarnród Éireann

The truth they want to hide.

mgmt wrote: »

14,400*12 = 172,800 (limerick -ennis)

but...



WTF


Haha I just read the CBA for this line. Someone should be sacked for approving this disaster.

http://www.transport21.ie/Publications/upload/File/Limerick-Galway_Socio-Economic_CBA.PDF

The 16,000 journeys a month press release last April was made a few days after the line opened. Quite ridiculous - the figures I recently got are for all of last year - so if you take out the initial surge blip in April last year the 110,00 is probably over the top.

I just wish IR would issue the figures, they won't, so I guess we will have to survey the line and aggregate the figures up for an annual usage figure.

westtip

wild handlin wrote: »

Ok.... Observation no.2...

Seeing as Ennis - Limerick made economic sence to re-open does that mean that Tuam - Galway makes economic sence? It's based on the same principle; you're linking a commuter town to a city...

And what does this make of the "corridor" argument - of the North South Axis from Sligo to Limerick, which apparently was of such huge strategic importance, or is it now no longer a corridor but a series of branch lines - The Ennis Limerick branch line, the Tuam Galway branch line - and how will "corridor" trains operate - Limerick - Athenry - Galway - Tuam or some other exotic mixture - How will Tuam trains interact with southern corridor trains, is the whole Tuam - Galway thing just that - Tuam - Galway or is it about the "strategic corridor we need for balanced regional development! " don't make me laugh! Is Athenry set to become the Clapham junction of the west, were corridor passengers get off and change for a an east west axis train running into Galway.

And as DW quite rightly pointed out - Ennis Limerick was not closed and re-opened - a commuter service was added to existing line, which is a massively different position than relaying new track for a line with so little apparent demand. this has nothing to do with balanced regional developement, when you think what is planned to be spent on phase 2 and 3 and what that could do for rural bus services in the west it is shocking.

The whole thing is a dogs breakfast that is now unravelling (strange mix of metaphors there!)