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Views of Irish political parties on LGBT issues

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24

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    #32
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,933 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    senordingdong wrote: »
    Should gay people not vote according to the best candidates instead of the party that is simply 'pro-gay.?
    Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #33
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

    You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.


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    #34
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

    Even so, it seems the OP believes that gay people will vote for the most pro-gay party, when in fact other issues (the economy really stands out) are very important to all of us.


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    #35
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    senordingdong wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

    You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.

    That in my opinion is the reason why Irish politics fails miserably.
    National Politicians should look out for the national interest, local politicians can sort out local issues.

    The likes of Jackie Healy Rae and parish pump politics is just utterly disgraceful.


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    #36
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,933 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    senordingdong wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

    You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.

    Its hard to generalise like that and I dont think its that simple - sure a substantial number of people vote like that but then I believe there is definitely a party vote as well - look at the polls and where FF is - that is loss of confidence in the party - The PDs were in my view kicked out because of their harsh image - they were viewed as too right wing

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #37
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,933 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Even so, it seems the OP believes that gay people will vote for the most pro-gay party, when in fact other issues (the economy really stands out) are very important to all of us.
    well again yes people do vote on a broad range of issues but there are definitely some lgbt people who vote based on lgbt issues

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #38
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    If the poll you linked to above, Jmcg, is anything to go by (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055905848) it shows that just as the average Irishman is likely to vote for social conservatives, the average gay person is likely to vote for social liberals.


    Somebody mentioned Political Compass. I actually only took the test a few days ago and got: 1.25 / -4.77


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    #39
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    Its hard to generalise like that and I dont think its that simple - sure a substantial number of people vote like that but then I believe there is definitely a party vote as well - look at the polls and where FF is - that is loss of confidence in the party - The PDs were in my view kicked out because of their harsh image - they were viewed as too right wing

    yeah I agree.

    The local vote upwards is how it's supposed to operate, but obviously it doesn't always.


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    #40
    Louisevb
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Louisevb


    What you need to look for in this debate is which party will give the best chance for economic revival with an ethos for equality restructuring, and with the FF party cutting the Equality authority budget by 45% and hampering the work of the IHRC as well we cannot say that FF are LGBT friendly.. The Greens are not in any position to do anything constructive... FG have no dedicated LGBT section, neither have FF as it happens. That leaves SF and Labour.. SF would be sympathetic to the LGBT sector but their economic policies are a bit airy fairy. All the above parties apart from Labour have a very tentative link between LGBT and equality.

    Labour have a dedicated LGBT section and a dedicated Equality section which both feed proposed policy changes in to the main executive. Labour have a strong equality agenda and did propose a CP bill in 2007 which was thrown out by Michael McDowell before he was thrown out by the electorate. Labour opposed NAMA and the blanket bank guarantee, both of which are strangling the Irish economy. Labour proposed taking funding from the NPRF and putting that into creating a new sound bank to lend to start ups /existing SMEs and fund new jobs... (That option has now gone thanks to IMF/FF) Inevitably any new government will have had it's hand very much tied with what the IMF have done, but there are options that should have been taken before the IMF were forced upon us.. But taking all that into account Labour are the only party that will give you equality and not just at an election.

    I have to add I'm a member of Labour LGBT and LE in case there is any doubt :)


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    #41
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I'm openly biased here (member of Labour LGBT) - firstly Crayolo - Labours private members bill on civil unions in 2006 included adoption within the Bill -

    Secondly on the one hand you accuse Labour of being populist then on the other you say our economic policies are a joke - those are completely contradictory statements - Either Labour is populist or has economic policies you disagree with and also - what do you mean by the economic policies are a joke? Could you explain in more detail what you mean?

    What economic policies? Labour haven't put forward any concrete policies that I have seen other than the politics of opposition. I have voted Labour or Democratic left as my first preference since I was 18 but honestly have no idea what I'm voting for this time as they seem to be great at shouting about whats wrong but have no real ideas about how they are going to change it, that they are willing to share with the people who's votes they are asking for.


    To the OP who is obviously a card carrying member of Fianna FAIL, how can a party that has never made a decision without the backing of the catholic church since Develera's time going to support LGBT issues? Shows how scared FF are of being wiped out and how much they are willing to lie to get votes!


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    #42
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,933 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    stephen_n wrote: »
    What economic policies? Labour haven't put forward any concrete policies that I have seen other than the politics of opposition. I have voted Labour or Democratic left as my first preference since I was 18 but honestly have no idea what I'm voting for this time as they seem to be great at shouting about whats wrong but have no real ideas about how they are going to change it, that they are willing to share with the people who's votes they are asking for.

    The policies are clear it is just that the Media likes to portray Labour as having no policies

    Here's some:

    Creation of a strategic investment bank

    A targeted strategy for creation of employment and a specific jobs fund

    A changing of enterprise strategy in order to build up indigenous enterprise as opposed to IDA exclusively looking for foreign capital

    A 3rd tax rate of 48%

    Reduction in a wide range of tax reliefs

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #43
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    The policies are clear it is just that the Media likes to portray Labour as having no policies

    Here's some:

    Creation of a strategic investment bank

    A targeted strategy for creation of employment and a specific jobs fund

    A changing of enterprise strategy in order to build up indigenous enterprise as opposed to IDA exclusively looking for foreign capital

    A 3rd tax rate of 48%

    Reduction in a wide range of tax reliefs

    They are bullet points though not policies Eamon Gilmore doesn't back up anything or say how it will work and the only Labour TD I have heard who actually will discuss it in depth is Ruari Quinn. The Labour party are completely anonymous when it comes to discussing the real challenge, which is dismantling the current bloated and over paid civil service, taking on the public sector trade unions and most importantly a radical overhaul of the system of government. FG policies don't go anywhere near far enough and offering up the seanad is just a smoke screen to protect the crazy amount of TD's we have.

    Voting on LGBT issues alone would be crazy as this is national government and will effect people on every level.


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    #44
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Azure_sky wrote: »
    I thought you all might find this interest. The politcal compass test.


    http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

    Economic Left/Right: -5.12
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.67

    But I'm not really sure what that means :P


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    #45
    Louisevb
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Louisevb


    stephen_n wrote: »
    They are bullet points though not policies Eamon Gilmore doesn't back up anything or say how it will work and the only Labour TD I have heard who actually will discuss it in depth is Ruari Quinn. The Labour party are completely anonymous when it comes to discussing the real challenge, which is dismantling the current bloated and over paid civil service, taking on the public sector trade unions and most importantly a radical overhaul of the system of government. FG policies don't go anywhere near far enough and offering up the seanad is just a smoke screen to protect the crazy amount of TD's we have.

    Voting on LGBT issues alone would be crazy as this is national government and will effect people on every level.

    So what would you rather have a more equal and just society or one which is very unequal but is financially sound? Labour have the policies and you will see these closer to the election... At this stage it's a game of poker as no party wil detail it's policies until the election is formally called because at this stage ideas for reforming the economy etc. will be stolen and what you are feeding into is a game of chicken and you've bought it.. Have patience


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    #46
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Louisevb wrote: »
    So what would you rather have a more equal and just society or one which is very unequal but is financially sound? Labour have the policies and you will see these closer to the election... At this stage it's a game of poker as no party wil detail it's policies until the election is formally called because at this stage ideas for reforming the economy etc. will be stolen and what you are feeding into is a game of chicken and you've bought it.. Have patience

    My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.


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    #47
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    MYOB wrote: »
    A senior opposition party TD for Leinster is known within political circles to be but is unlikely to 'come out' to the nation; additionally another senior opposition TD was investigated in the 1990s for suspected dalliances with rentboys...

    However, there is a second openly gay senator, Dominic Hannigan (Labour) who came within 2000 votes of getting a seat in 2007. Said seat is FF and under extreme threat from Labour so we should have one by April.

    The TD you are talking about was a government TD at the time and the story did not involve rentboys. He was cruising for adult sex. And it was disgraceful that Gardai leaked the story.


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    #48
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    "Have patience" is a bit lame, tbh. We're in the crapper; being told to have patience lest somebody steal our ideas is patronising. Let them be known -- you'll have to at some stage anyway! At any rate, if they're such good ideas, then who cares who actually effects them?


    Also, can anyone tell me exactly where Labout stand on gay marriage? Will they bring in gender-neutral marriage laws? Will we be allowed to jointly adopt? Give blood? Receive IVF?


    Without anything concrete, you're selling a pup. Might as well bet on better economic policies and no marriage legislation, than questionable economic policies and the off-chance of marriage legislation.


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    #49
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The TD you are talking about was a government TD at the time and the story did not involve rentboys. He was cruising for adult sex. And it was disgraceful that Gardai leaked the story.

    I said suspected, I can only go on what the media/Guards had at the time, despite meeting the man I've never brought it up in conversation clearly!

    Aard wrote: »
    Also, can anyone tell me exactly where Labout stand on gay marriage? Will they bring in gender-neutral marriage laws? Will we be allowed to jointly adopt? Give blood? Receive IVF?

    Labour attempted to introduce gender-neutral marriage laws with adoption during the 2002-2007 Dail. As it stands on marriage law, a one line change is all that is needed to the Civil Registration Act (followed, quite probably, by a supreme court challenge on the constantly misinterpreted line in the constitution that uses the word for 'household' in Irish) to introduce same.

    Blood is a matter for the IBTS though they could be put under pressure by the state obviously. Not sure what restrictions there are on IVF, its not something I've ever studied.


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    #50
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    MYOB wrote: »
    Labour attempted to introduce gender-neutral marriage laws with adoption during the 2002-2007 Dail. As it stands on marriage law, a one line change is all that is needed to the Civil Registration Act (followed, quite probably, by a supreme court challenge on the constantly misinterpreted line in the constitution that uses the word for 'household' in Irish) to introduce same.
    I know what you're talking about IRT the Civil Registration Act. Incidentally, the government need to amend that act and have indicated that they will, because if not then 3,000 marriages made on Embassy grounds will be null and void. It would be an ideal opportunity to take out the specific reference to man and woman.


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    #51
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    MYOB wrote: »
    I said suspected, I can only go on what the media/Guards had at the time, despite meeting the man I've never brought it up in conversation clearly!QUOTE]

    It's a pretty serious accusation to make when you're not sure of the facts.


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    #52
    Louisevb
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Louisevb


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.

    I wasn't talking about equality being specific to the LGBT sector but to society in general.. the LGBT population are about maybe 10% of the population if that...It's more about the way that society is allowed to evolve and be shaped to become fairer all round. Better care for those less well off in general.
    Labour will push for a Civil Marriage Bill but the advice is that it could be challenged as being against the current constitution so that is why at the moment Labour are happy to support the CP bill but the longer term aim is to bring in CM.
    When I said have patience I meant only for a few weeks and you will see the party policies in much greater detail. At this stage none of the parties are being too specific, about their manifestos unless you swallow the media hype hook line and sinker:)


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    #53
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    It's a pretty serious accusation to make when you're not sure of the facts.

    Its not an accusation, and I'm going on the absolute entirety of what is public - e.g. "the facts". He was questioned in relation to it.


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    #54
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Louisevb wrote: »
    Labour will push for a Civil Marriage Bill but the advice is that it could be challenged as being against the current constitution so that is why at the moment Labour are happy to support the CP bill but the longer term aim is to bring in CM.
    "Longer term" doesn't sound too good. Do Labour have any goal-date for when it'll be legalised?


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    #55
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Aard wrote: »
    "Longer term" doesn't sound too good. Do Labour have any goal-date for when it'll be legalised?

    Seeing as they're not yet in government, that's fairly impossible to give.. however, its expected they'll float the issue within 2-3 years of getting in to office. Remember they're likely to be in with a centre right conservative party who consider themselves "Christian Democrats".

    Realistically they have to second-guess the supreme court. If the SC rule that civil marriage is repugnant to the 'family' (English mistranslation, the Irish text holds legal precedence) clause it'll need a referendum to bring in full marriage.

    And its pretty much 100% guaranteed that someone will take a challenge to the SC if the President doesn't refer a hypothetical bill in the first place.


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    #56
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    MYOB wrote: »
    Its not an accusation, and I'm going on the absolute entirety of what is public - e.g. "the facts". He was questioned in relation to it.

    There was a homophobic assumption that he was involved with rentboys. You are perpetuating the falsehood by mentioning it again in a LGBT forum.


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    #57
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Back on topic please.


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    #58
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Back on topic please.

    I wasn't the one mentioning the falsehoods. Just had to clarified for those that don't know.;)


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    #59
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Louisevb wrote: »
    Labour have a dedicated LGBT section and a dedicated Equality section which both feed proposed policy changes in to the main executive. Labour have a strong equality agenda and did propose a CP bill in 2007 which was thrown out by Michael McDowell before he was thrown out by the electorate.
    The fact that the other parties don't have specific LGBT sections actually makes me respect them more. What's special about LGBT individuals above, for example immigrants, students (youth wings aren't for students), public servants, civil servants, black people.

    This mollycoddling of special interest groups irks me to the core. I agree with some of what is said by crayolastereo below:
    crayolastereo wrote: »
    My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.

    I don't believe you need specific sections, because issues change and sections/committees remain wasting everyone's time, I see it week in, week out in my job.

    Issues should be discussed by anyone interested at such a time as they are next on the list of priorities. Different groups of interested parties, regardless of membership of a section should be able to come together to discuss issues.

    I was consulted on the Ógra policy as a FF member and in terms of the final product it was actually restrained by those who have reservations rather than being a completely populist idea. The support of some was not easy won to make this an official policy, but it has become one. There is no point trying to paint any party as the bastion of anything, let alone LGBT, because there will always be a body of people in any party that disagree with every policy of the party.

    In any case this is not a sudden enlightenment with an election due. A number of months work were put in and it was finally approved by the Youth Committee in February of last year.


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    #60
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ninety9er, what's the gestation period between being a Youth member and becoming a TD? Or indeed between being Youth policy and standard party policy?


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    #61
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    I had to show you guys this.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69879313&postcount=211
    Grassroots_FF wrote: »
    Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics
    Grassroots_FF wrote: »
    David Norris does not represent the values of the ordinary Irish man or woman and should not be president. We should have someone who is Christian, married, centrist and with a love for Irish history and gaelic games.


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