Views of Irish political parties on LGBT issues

Grassroots_FF

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

Azure_sky

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

They're also pro corruption.:pac:

L1011

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

Bit late to the party, that and when its dying.

Also, its a front - FF will never be properly "pro gay", only when desperation takes hold. Centre right politics and gay rights do not mix.

Also, what relevance does this have to the thread?

Aard

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

So are Labour and they're more likely to be in a position to effect change after the next general election.


(Not an endorsement for Labour in any way, shape, or form, btw.)

Azure_sky

MYOB wrote: »

Bit late to the party, that and when its dying.

Also, its a front - FF will never be properly "pro gay", only when desperation takes hold. Centre right politics and gay rights do not mix.

Also, what relevance does this have to the thread?

They're desperate for votes so now they're compromising their "traditional values" to appeal to the gay vote. Oh and the Fianna Fail government were not very helpful to Lydia Foyle and all transgenders who wish to go as far as fully transitioning. The E.U. had to step in.

L1011

Azure_sky wrote: »

They're desperate for votes so now they're compromising their "traditional values" to appeal to the gay vote. Oh and the Fianna Fail government were not very helpful to Lydia Foyle and all transgenders who wish to go as far as fully transitioning. The E.U. had to step in.

They've lost so much ground to Labour that they're trying to go after one of the bits of the vote that has been mostly Labour's for 30 years. Pathetic.

rainbow kirby

(split from the other thread)

Aard

Thanks for splitting the thread, RK.


I think with the looming general election, it might be an idea to discuss the various party positions. Despite being a troll, the OP is at least partially correct: FF Youth have allegedly softened up greatly on gay marriage. Not sure how long that'll take to translate into actual TDs though!

On Fine Gael, I went to see a prominent member of the party last year, but she told me in no uncertain terms that same-sex marriage was not "on the agenda" (her words). She kept going on about people not being ready for it, despite my telling her about recent polls suggesting that 60% of the electorate up and down the country have no problem with it. After more questions from me, it was evident that what she wanted to say was that it would upset FG's conservative base.

Chuchoter

Single issue politics leads to nothing but trouble. I'd like gay marriage, but I'd also like the odd functioning school to put the kids I'd be able to adopt in :S Labour, no matter how LGBT friendly they might be, are too populist.

Azure_sky

Aard wrote: »

Thanks for splitting the thread, RK.



On Fine Gael, I went to see a prominent member of the party last year, but she told me in no uncertain terms that same-sex marriage was not "on the agenda" (her words). She kept going on about people not being ready for it, despite my telling her about recent polls suggesting that 60% of the electorate up and down the country have no problem with it. After more questions from me, it was evident that what she wanted to say was that it would upset FG's conservative base.

Fine Gael are even more backward and pro profit over people than Fianna Fail, and just as inept. Don't forget F.G. political ideology is "Christian democracy" aka Christian theocracy.

http://www.parties-and-elections.de/ireland.html

For me Labour is the only one worth voting for.

Chuchoter

Labour will be a disaster in absolutely every other area though. Their economic policies are a joke. But then all the parties are jokes atm :S

Azure_sky

crayolastereo wrote: »

Labour will be a disaster in absolutely every other area though. Their economic policies are a joke. But then all the parties are jokes atm :S

In the eyes of a non socialist perhaps. Still, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'll do my best to stay out of this thread. Politics angry the blood.:pac:

Aard

crayolastereo wrote: »

Single issue politics leads to nothing but trouble.

Absolutely.


I'm not advocating any particular party, just trying to get a fix on what each of them actually think IRT rights, and almost more specifically the accompanying legislation. I wouldn't want this thread to turn into a "I'm voting for X" thread, more to discuss specifically the LGBT aspects of their policies.


IIRC, the Greens, Sinn Féin, and the Socialists are also pro marriage equality.

Annasopra

Firstly Crayolo - Labours private members bill on civil unions in 2006 included adoption within the Bill -

Secondly on the one hand you accuse Labour of being populist then on the other you say our economic policies are a joke - those are completely contradictory statements - Either Labour is populist or has economic policies you disagree with and also - what do you mean by the economic policies are a joke? Could you explain in more detail what you mean?

Annasopra

Oh by the way - Parties are writing their general election manifestos at the moment so you can check them all out when they are published and see what is proposed in terms of LGBT rights

Chuchoter

Labour want to please everyone. That is impossible. Going by his late late interview and the proposed budget on the website, he wanted to fabricate 6 billion out of air. No cuts in hospitals, no cuts in child benefit, no cuts in education, no cuts in pensions, no cuts anywhere but tiny things that save fractions of what we needed to save. But all of that is irrelevant because the the IMF will now decide how we handle our money and this thread is about LGBT stances.

Annasopra

Can I ask the other moderators if its ok to discuss non LGBT issues in this thread?

rainbow kirby

Go for it.

Aard

I think there are ample threads to discuss general policies of parties, but none dedicated to LGBT issues. The thread title is pretty clear too, I'd have thought.

L1011

crayolastereo wrote: »

Labour want to please everyone. That is impossible. Going by his late late interview and the proposed budget on the website, he wanted to fabricate 6 billion out of air. No cuts in hospitals, no cuts in child benefit, no cuts in education, no cuts in pensions, no cuts anywhere but tiny things that save fractions of what we needed to save. But all of that is irrelevant because the the IMF will now decide how we handle our money and this thread is about LGBT stances.

I work closely with the HSE (thankfully not IN the HSE) and could tell you how to find at least 1.5Bn a year without touching front line services. Repeat that across every other agency/department...

Annasopra

Aard wrote: »

I think there are ample threads to discuss general policies of parties, but none dedicated to LGBT issues. The thread title is pretty clear too, I'd have thought.

OK fair enough - I kinda just wanted to respond to Crayolostereo but I'll stay out of getting into party politics economic policies

I don't necessarily agree Aard - we have discussed these issues before

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055905848
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055683001
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055554238
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055087501
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055002368
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=169323
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=163247

Dr. Baltar

I'm not a socialist, but socially I am extremely Liberal.

Where are the Progressive Democrats when you need them?

I want to vote for Labour for the social stance, and I want to vote for Fine Gael for their economic stance.

Aard

Were the PDs that LGBT-friendly?

==

After looking at the Sinn Féin site, I actually can't find anything explicitly stating that they're in favour of gay marriage. But it seems to be generally accepted that they are, and I've heard it from an SF councillor too...

Craebear

Labour would be the closest to pro lgbt but still nothing to write home about. FF/FG backbenchers and core supporters would probably faint at the idea of Gay marriage being the stupid paddys they are.

Do we even have a single gay elected TD? I cannot think of one.

Dr. Baltar

Craebear wrote: »

Labour would be the closest to pro lgbt but still nothing to write home about. FF/FG backbenchers and core supporters would probably faint at the idea of Gay marriage being the stupid paddys they are.

Do we even have a single gay elected TD? I cannot think of one.

On that note, I was reading recently that Norris is unlikely to be a 4th candidate for the Presidency. Can anyone confirm this? If it is true then that is most unfortunate!

Azure_sky

I thought you all might find this interest. The politcal compass test.


http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Azure_sky

Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.74




http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-7.12&soc=-1.74

L1011

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

On that note, I was reading recently that Norris is unlikely to be a 4th candidate for the Presidency. Can anyone confirm this? If it is true then that is most unfortunate!

No existing party will nominate him and there aren't enough independent TDs and Senators to collect together - and at that, a lot of them wouldn't nominate him anyway

As goes "4th" candidate, there is every possibility that we could have either an outright bloc (SF) or a combined left (SF+ULA) bloc large enough to nominate a candidate, so there could be 4 Oireachtas nominated candidates to begin with. You need 20 Oireachtas members to nominate someone, FG, LAB and FF are guaranteed that. SF alone could just scrape it, with ULA likely to get at least 4 seats there's probably 20 between them (they may even manage to get a senator or two). Its not that likely that Norris would *accept* a SF or SF/ULA nomination and anyway, Gerry Adams wants to run if SF can nominate him.

This leaves him with the county council route, which has previously only ever nominated very conservative candidates. Most councils in Ireland are controlled by FG either outright or as the lead party in a coalition so they are unlikely to nominate someone like Norris. And you need 5 county or city councils (there's 34 IIRC) to nominate you

He still has chances, but they're getting slimmer.

L1011

Craebear wrote: »

Do we even have a single gay elected TD? I cannot think of one.

A senior opposition party TD for Leinster is known within political circles to be but is unlikely to 'come out' to the nation; additionally another senior opposition TD was investigated in the 1990s for suspected dalliances with rentboys...

However, there is a second openly gay senator, Dominic Hannigan (Labour) who came within 2000 votes of getting a seat in 2007. Said seat is FF and under extreme threat from Labour so we should have one by April.

Dr. Baltar

Azure_sky wrote: »

Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.74




http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-7.12&soc=-1.74

You Communist You! :P

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=2.88&soc=-5.33

Like I thought, my test revealed pretty much the Progressive Democrats but even more socially liberal.

senordingdong

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are becoming very pro-gay these days if any of you people want to get involved in politics

Should gay people not vote according to the best candidates instead of the party that is simply 'pro-gay.?

Annasopra

senordingdong wrote: »

Should gay people not vote according to the best candidates instead of the party that is simply 'pro-gay.?

Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

senordingdong

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.

Dr. Baltar

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Whats the point of parties if you think People should vote for individuals

Even so, it seems the OP believes that gay people will vote for the most pro-gay party, when in fact other issues (the economy really stands out) are very important to all of us.

Dr. Baltar

senordingdong wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.

That in my opinion is the reason why Irish politics fails miserably.
National Politicians should look out for the national interest, local politicians can sort out local issues.

The likes of Jackie Healy Rae and parish pump politics is just utterly disgraceful.

Annasopra

senordingdong wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how politics works in Ireland?

You vote for the person who you think has done the best work in your constituency, regardless of which party they are in.

Its hard to generalise like that and I dont think its that simple - sure a substantial number of people vote like that but then I believe there is definitely a party vote as well - look at the polls and where FF is - that is loss of confidence in the party - The PDs were in my view kicked out because of their harsh image - they were viewed as too right wing

Annasopra

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Even so, it seems the OP believes that gay people will vote for the most pro-gay party, when in fact other issues (the economy really stands out) are very important to all of us.

well again yes people do vote on a broad range of issues but there are definitely some lgbt people who vote based on lgbt issues

Aard

If the poll you linked to above, Jmcg, is anything to go by (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055905848) it shows that just as the average Irishman is likely to vote for social conservatives, the average gay person is likely to vote for social liberals.


Somebody mentioned Political Compass. I actually only took the test a few days ago and got: 1.25 / -4.77

senordingdong

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Its hard to generalise like that and I dont think its that simple - sure a substantial number of people vote like that but then I believe there is definitely a party vote as well - look at the polls and where FF is - that is loss of confidence in the party - The PDs were in my view kicked out because of their harsh image - they were viewed as too right wing

yeah I agree.

The local vote upwards is how it's supposed to operate, but obviously it doesn't always.

Louisevb

What you need to look for in this debate is which party will give the best chance for economic revival with an ethos for equality restructuring, and with the FF party cutting the Equality authority budget by 45% and hampering the work of the IHRC as well we cannot say that FF are LGBT friendly.. The Greens are not in any position to do anything constructive... FG have no dedicated LGBT section, neither have FF as it happens. That leaves SF and Labour.. SF would be sympathetic to the LGBT sector but their economic policies are a bit airy fairy. All the above parties apart from Labour have a very tentative link between LGBT and equality.

Labour have a dedicated LGBT section and a dedicated Equality section which both feed proposed policy changes in to the main executive. Labour have a strong equality agenda and did propose a CP bill in 2007 which was thrown out by Michael McDowell before he was thrown out by the electorate. Labour opposed NAMA and the blanket bank guarantee, both of which are strangling the Irish economy. Labour proposed taking funding from the NPRF and putting that into creating a new sound bank to lend to start ups /existing SMEs and fund new jobs... (That option has now gone thanks to IMF/FF) Inevitably any new government will have had it's hand very much tied with what the IMF have done, but there are options that should have been taken before the IMF were forced upon us.. But taking all that into account Labour are the only party that will give you equality and not just at an election.

I have to add I'm a member of Labour LGBT and LE in case there is any doubt

stephen_n

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I'm openly biased here (member of Labour LGBT) - firstly Crayolo - Labours private members bill on civil unions in 2006 included adoption within the Bill -

Secondly on the one hand you accuse Labour of being populist then on the other you say our economic policies are a joke - those are completely contradictory statements - Either Labour is populist or has economic policies you disagree with and also - what do you mean by the economic policies are a joke? Could you explain in more detail what you mean?

What economic policies? Labour haven't put forward any concrete policies that I have seen other than the politics of opposition. I have voted Labour or Democratic left as my first preference since I was 18 but honestly have no idea what I'm voting for this time as they seem to be great at shouting about whats wrong but have no real ideas about how they are going to change it, that they are willing to share with the people who's votes they are asking for.


To the OP who is obviously a card carrying member of Fianna FAIL, how can a party that has never made a decision without the backing of the catholic church since Develera's time going to support LGBT issues? Shows how scared FF are of being wiped out and how much they are willing to lie to get votes!

Annasopra

stephen_n wrote: »

What economic policies? Labour haven't put forward any concrete policies that I have seen other than the politics of opposition. I have voted Labour or Democratic left as my first preference since I was 18 but honestly have no idea what I'm voting for this time as they seem to be great at shouting about whats wrong but have no real ideas about how they are going to change it, that they are willing to share with the people who's votes they are asking for.

The policies are clear it is just that the Media likes to portray Labour as having no policies

Here's some:

Creation of a strategic investment bank

A targeted strategy for creation of employment and a specific jobs fund

A changing of enterprise strategy in order to build up indigenous enterprise as opposed to IDA exclusively looking for foreign capital

A 3rd tax rate of 48%

Reduction in a wide range of tax reliefs

stephen_n

Johnnymcg wrote: »

The policies are clear it is just that the Media likes to portray Labour as having no policies

Here's some:

Creation of a strategic investment bank

A targeted strategy for creation of employment and a specific jobs fund

A changing of enterprise strategy in order to build up indigenous enterprise as opposed to IDA exclusively looking for foreign capital

A 3rd tax rate of 48%

Reduction in a wide range of tax reliefs

They are bullet points though not policies Eamon Gilmore doesn't back up anything or say how it will work and the only Labour TD I have heard who actually will discuss it in depth is Ruari Quinn. The Labour party are completely anonymous when it comes to discussing the real challenge, which is dismantling the current bloated and over paid civil service, taking on the public sector trade unions and most importantly a radical overhaul of the system of government. FG policies don't go anywhere near far enough and offering up the seanad is just a smoke screen to protect the crazy amount of TD's we have.

Voting on LGBT issues alone would be crazy as this is national government and will effect people on every level.

Chuchoter

Azure_sky wrote: »

I thought you all might find this interest. The politcal compass test.


http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Economic Left/Right: -5.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.67

But I'm not really sure what that means :P

Louisevb

stephen_n wrote: »

They are bullet points though not policies Eamon Gilmore doesn't back up anything or say how it will work and the only Labour TD I have heard who actually will discuss it in depth is Ruari Quinn. The Labour party are completely anonymous when it comes to discussing the real challenge, which is dismantling the current bloated and over paid civil service, taking on the public sector trade unions and most importantly a radical overhaul of the system of government. FG policies don't go anywhere near far enough and offering up the seanad is just a smoke screen to protect the crazy amount of TD's we have.

Voting on LGBT issues alone would be crazy as this is national government and will effect people on every level.

So what would you rather have a more equal and just society or one which is very unequal but is financially sound? Labour have the policies and you will see these closer to the election... At this stage it's a game of poker as no party wil detail it's policies until the election is formally called because at this stage ideas for reforming the economy etc. will be stolen and what you are feeding into is a game of chicken and you've bought it.. Have patience

Chuchoter

Louisevb wrote: »

So what would you rather have a more equal and just society or one which is very unequal but is financially sound? Labour have the policies and you will see these closer to the election... At this stage it's a game of poker as no party wil detail it's policies until the election is formally called because at this stage ideas for reforming the economy etc. will be stolen and what you are feeding into is a game of chicken and you've bought it.. Have patience

My life doesn't revolve around being gay. I want a job, a proper education and health service. Gay marriage is not the be all and end all, you have money then you can pay for programs in schools to help gay youths, you can pay to help homeless LGBT people specifically and lots of other things. Frankly I strongly doubt any of the parties have the balls to stand up and demand gay marriage, which is as good to me as not mentioning the issue at all. Thats the way politics works, not on whats right but on what will get you votes.

hotmail.com

MYOB wrote: »

A senior opposition party TD for Leinster is known within political circles to be but is unlikely to 'come out' to the nation; additionally another senior opposition TD was investigated in the 1990s for suspected dalliances with rentboys...

However, there is a second openly gay senator, Dominic Hannigan (Labour) who came within 2000 votes of getting a seat in 2007. Said seat is FF and under extreme threat from Labour so we should have one by April.

The TD you are talking about was a government TD at the time and the story did not involve rentboys. He was cruising for adult sex. And it was disgraceful that Gardai leaked the story.

Aard

"Have patience" is a bit lame, tbh. We're in the crapper; being told to have patience lest somebody steal our ideas is patronising. Let them be known -- you'll have to at some stage anyway! At any rate, if they're such good ideas, then who cares who actually effects them?


Also, can anyone tell me exactly where Labout stand on gay marriage? Will they bring in gender-neutral marriage laws? Will we be allowed to jointly adopt? Give blood? Receive IVF?


Without anything concrete, you're selling a pup. Might as well bet on better economic policies and no marriage legislation, than questionable economic policies and the off-chance of marriage legislation.

L1011

hotmail.com wrote: »

The TD you are talking about was a government TD at the time and the story did not involve rentboys. He was cruising for adult sex. And it was disgraceful that Gardai leaked the story.

I said suspected, I can only go on what the media/Guards had at the time, despite meeting the man I've never brought it up in conversation clearly!

Aard wrote: »

Also, can anyone tell me exactly where Labout stand on gay marriage? Will they bring in gender-neutral marriage laws? Will we be allowed to jointly adopt? Give blood? Receive IVF?

Labour attempted to introduce gender-neutral marriage laws with adoption during the 2002-2007 Dail. As it stands on marriage law, a one line change is all that is needed to the Civil Registration Act (followed, quite probably, by a supreme court challenge on the constantly misinterpreted line in the constitution that uses the word for 'household' in Irish) to introduce same.

Blood is a matter for the IBTS though they could be put under pressure by the state obviously. Not sure what restrictions there are on IVF, its not something I've ever studied.

Aard

MYOB wrote: »

Labour attempted to introduce gender-neutral marriage laws with adoption during the 2002-2007 Dail. As it stands on marriage law, a one line change is all that is needed to the Civil Registration Act (followed, quite probably, by a supreme court challenge on the constantly misinterpreted line in the constitution that uses the word for 'household' in Irish) to introduce same.

I know what you're talking about IRT the Civil Registration Act. Incidentally, the government need to amend that act and have indicated that they will, because if not then 3,000 marriages made on Embassy grounds will be null and void. It would be an ideal opportunity to take out the specific reference to man and woman.

hotmail.com

MYOB wrote: »

I said suspected, I can only go on what the media/Guards had at the time, despite meeting the man I've never brought it up in conversation clearly!QUOTE]

It's a pretty serious accusation to make when you're not sure of the facts.