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Depression

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    #62
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    A number of reasons, probably because when I look at my life, I am very lucky when compared to others, what do I have to be down about? I am healthy, relatively fit, have good friends, have a good life style, loving family, am doing the course I really wanted to do, etc etc, A far as I can see there is no reason why I should feel the way I do. There are people much worse off and they dont go around moaning about how unhappy they are.

    As some have said people would interpret that as weakness, or that I am messed up in the head, that type of thing.

    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
    - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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    #63
    High energy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 227 ✭✭High energy


    These poll results are shocking, 85% of people experiencing depression at some point in their lives.

    The problem with mental illness is it's a relatively new branch of medicine in terms of diagnosis and treatment, and still difficult to quantify. I mean if I go to a doctor and say I haven't been feeling the best the last few days - the water supply to my house is cut off, my car got damaged in the icy conditions, I've feck all money, etc, I'd probably be diagnosed with depression. But I know these things pass and can be resolved.

    Basically (and I'm being sincere, +not trying to offend those inflicted with a genuine mental illness) but a lot of doctors are wrongly diagnosing people with depression , and the side effects and history of the medication itself are quite worrying. Maybe I'm a conspiracy wacko, but I think there's something serious going on within the medical and pharmaceutical industry and huge profits are being made out of the whole area of mental illness being difficult to properly diagnose and treat. It's not like cancer or other physical illness where you either 100% have the illness , or 100% don't have it.


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    #64
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    I read a magazine called "Psychology Today" now and again.

    They say that men and women respond to depression in different ways.
    Women get sad and men get mad.
    So that's probably why a lot of guys don't realise they have depression, they are expecting tears and emotional outbursts, and not general crankiness and short temper.


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    #65
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    Naikon wrote: »
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
    - Jiddu Krishnamurti

    That fcukin DRIVES ME MAD ^^^^^^ :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

    Those spouting the epithet and quoting b.s is not warranted on this thread....


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    #66
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    A number of reasons, probably because when I look at my life, I am very lucky when compared to others, what do I have to be down about? I am healthy, relatively fit, have good friends, have a good life style, loving family, am doing the course I really wanted to do, etc etc, A far as I can see there is no reason why I should feel the way I do. There are people much worse off and they dont go around moaning about how unhappy they are.

    As some have said people would interpret that as weakness, or that I am messed up in the head, that type of thing. And I certainly dont want people to think that about me.
    Thanks for the reply. Can identify with all of what you have said. I'm not gonna give advice to you 'cos i doubt you want that and I'm not the right person to anyway. But I will say that from my reading of your post I don't see any reason for you to beat yourself up with shame.

    Some people are going to interpret it as weakness and think it means your messed in the head. That's their ignorance and something for them to feel shame over, not you.

    I hope you can figure out how to come out the other side of this soon.


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    #67
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    The poll really does seem quite off, but I think an earlier poster is on to something when taking into account the time of year, internet and only people who find the thread relevant clicking into it.


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    #68
    andrew cross
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭andrew cross


    great post, I'm alot older than anyone here on boards i have bipolar, for 40 years. not diagnosed for 20 years, i have been to many funerals for young men, suffering from depression, all of them so sad, there ars many types of depression, reactive, endogenous,bipolar 1 2 3 rapid cycling, if you have depression to gp, get to know what type or depression you have, psychiatrist, counselling cbt getting to know about your illness, what ever it takes, to help you cope, to get well you have your whole life ahead of you , dont suffer, like i did talk to your family, you will learn who your true friends are when you are ill, get help now (please):) aware have a online web site offering support from fellow suffers, excuse the spelling


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    #69
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    t0mm13b wrote: »
    That fcukin DRIVES ME MAD ^^^^^^ :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

    Those spouting the epithet and quoting b.s is not warranted on this thread....

    Point is, doctors are pushing these drugs to an extent that anybody feeling a bit **** is given a prescription.
    It's quite a decent idea actually, opress the masses by offering them a pill to "help them". Severe, "real" clinical
    depression on the other hand tends to only respond to ECT and other severe methods. tl;dr - AD's overprescribed.
    Some mild "depressive" symptoms are simply a byproduct of petty materialism.

    We tend to focus too much on getting to the top of the ladder imo...


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    #70
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply. Can identify with all of what you have said. I'm not gonna give advice to you 'cos i doubt you want that and I'm not the right person to anyway. But I will say that from my reading of your post I don't see any reason for you to beat yourself up with shame.

    Some people are going to interpret it as weakness and think it means your messed in the head. That's their ignorance and something for them to feel shame over, not you.

    I hope you can figure out how to come out the other side of this soon.
    No problem, its a lot easier to write it rather than actually talk about it, I have doubts as to whether or not I actually would be able to physically tell someone.

    Thanks, Its been a very bad few week or so now, hopefully it will get better soon, I have exams in January to study for.


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    #71
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    t0mm13b wrote: »
    Can I add something to this - the humilation and the shame of it being a helpless lamb waiting for the slaughter, with the state of mentality - it is utterly the lowest and the most humiliating - sure life got you in the ass and lost all self-respect, self-dignity and self-worth.... it's understandable.... but people like cnuts do not understand that - if you want to, you have to go through the ultimate, its like you're in a four walled area of your life, totally in isolation, and the walls are growing in around you making it impossible to move no matter which way you turn.... that's when you realize the shame and humiliation because you thought you'd have the strength but instead a weakling.... horrible feeling and am sorry to say that but.... its when people read this and realize the extent behind the words of the struggle to overcome that....

    IT is very very difficult to explain.... unfortunately for cnuts who spout the epithet of life, spout b.s when in that state, - you'd believe them.... its not easy to put into words.... as an example of a cnut - read this "ever since you turned your back on religion you went down hard and fast man....." that is from a family member who, actually, word-for-word said that to me....that's sh!t and is not warranted but it shows the amount of apathy there.... and that person is going around acting holier-than-thou.....
    Your're explaining it extremely well, actually.

    It's rough when it's your own family spouting the schite though, can identify with that too.

    "You want to stop reading those heavy books and make a bit more of your appearance, like a normal woman. All that's wrong with you is you need a boyfriend. Men aren't interested in women who use big long words .:P"

    The thing is, I'm able to laugh at that now, instead of getting angry. But at the time it was devastating to me becuase a comment like tha: A, completely negates the seriousness of what you are going through and B, rejects who you are.


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    #72
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    t0mm13b wrote: »
    That fcukin DRIVES ME MAD ^^^^^^ :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

    Those spouting the epithet and quoting b.s is not warranted on this thread....

    Just be glad I am not a religious spouter :d


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    #73
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Possibly had it a bit in my teens due to hormonal changes - went overnight from girlie girlie, pretty floweriness to all indie gloom and black clothes and developing body hang-ups. To those on the outside, it no doubt looked like typical clichéd, self indulgent, moody teen behaviour, but it wasn't totally - I felt an overwhelming change taking place: a sense of, not so much sadness, but... apathy; a loss of interest in life, decreased motivation etc. Thankfully it just fizzled out, and pretty quickly, but the body hang-ups remained - nothing unusual about that for a female though.
    wellboy76 wrote: »
    How do you know you have depression?

    Do overweight or unfit people use it as an excuse?

    How does it click into gear is what I'm saying because I bet there are a lot of people who self diagnose themselves incorrectly
    Something tells me you'd LIKE that to be the case...
    dsmythy wrote: »
    Looking at the poll results some people need to distinguish between suffering from depression and having a ****ty month.
    dsmythy wrote: »
    Over 80% of respondants to the poll think they have suffered from depression. I seriously doubt it.
    You shouldn't make such statements in relation to such a sensitive topic without having anything to back them up. I don't know anyone who's ever said they were suffering from depression because they were merely feeling down - people don't seem to want to admit they have it, not to mind convince others they have it when they don't. I'm only realising in recent times that I possibly had it mildly when I was teenager.
    The numbers here are high, but it is a very common condition.
    That said, my mother just takes anti-depressants when she gets a bout of it every few years (thankfully nothing major) - I wish she'd also talk to a counsellor though. I acknowledge anti-depressants are a great help, but it's like they just put a plaster over the problem though, as they don't give a person coping skills.


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    #74
    Jay D
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Jay D


    Yeah depression sucks. Kinda get that never getting excited about anything, even when it's an event anyone would be leaping for.

    Other things are trusting very few, telling very little, just in case that person's gonna be dishonest.

    Thanks for bringing it up OP.


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    #75
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    No problem, its a lot easier to write it rather than actually talk about it, I have doubts as to whether or not I actually would be able to physically tell someone.

    Thanks, Its been a very bad few week or so now, hopefully it will get better soon, I have exams in January to study for.
    Best of luck with the exams. Hate Jan exams, whoever came up with that idea has a dark streak, that's for sure.


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    #76
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    CreepingDeath wrote: »
    I read a magazine called "Psychology Today" now and again.

    They say that men and women respond to depression in different ways.
    Women get sad and men get mad.
    So that's probably why a lot of guys don't realise they have depression, they are expecting tears and emotional outbursts, and not general crankiness and short temper.

    I think it's more likely that men don't admit to feeling sad unlike women. It's interesting to note though that women
    attempt suicide far more often than men, but men tend to complete the deed fully due to use of more lethal methods
    like hanging, firearms, and bridge jumping.


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    #77
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Dudess wrote: »
    I acknowledge anti-depressants are a great help, but it's like they just put a plaster over the problem though, as they don't give a person coping skills.

    I think some docs hand them out a little too liberally. It gives the rest a bad name and maybe creates a reluctance in people who really should be taking them.


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    #78
    High energy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 227 ✭✭High energy


    kowloon wrote: »
    I think some docs hand them out a little too liberally. It gives the rest a bad name and maybe creates a reluctance in people who really should be taking them.

    Agreed, + I also believe they are extremely dangerous when prescribed to the people who don't genuinely need them. People need to start questioning advice given to them by medical professionals and not just automatically assume they are correct because they are a doctor. They are human beings too.

    A doctor tried to prescribe me anti-depressants a few years back (I was there for him to look at a football injury :rolleyes: that was apparently caused by my "depression" :rolleyes:) I just walked out and went to A&E instead with a fractured ankle. How they get a license to practise medicine is beyond me.


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    #79
    knuckledragger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭knuckledragger


    Naikon wrote: »
    I think it's more likely that men don't admit to feeling sad unlike women. It's interesting to note though that women
    attempt suicide far more often than men, but men tend to complete the deed fully due to use of more lethal methods
    like hanging, firearms, and bridge jumping.

    Ongoing stigma related to men admitting to 'feelings'. From day one, we're encouraged to act, to be 'problem solvers'.

    If we believe we can't discuss what's on our minds, but that we have to take action... perhaps it's no surprise that events play out the way they do.

    Perhaps i'm wrong however.


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    #80
    pheasant tail
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭pheasant tail


    im glad i came accross this thread,,i have been depressed since summer time,,has been awful,,didnt make it back to college and havent drank or went out,,suicide attempt,,pushing friends away etc because of it,,depression truely is in my opinion the WORST illness a person can feel,truely horible..! all advise welcome:)
    I am seeing a pschyarist now for 4 months around,,ive been on so so many different tablets and treatments,,im been changed now again in january and i just need a bit of luck,,everything is so impossible,even things that would usually make me happy,,would just last for a really small time and drift back out of me,so frustrating!!!!!:mad::mad:

    Dont get me wrong here,dont mean this in a bad way but before i got depression if i heard some one was depressed id be like to meself "why??thats stupid,,go get happy" kind of attitude which is discraceful,,i know now! What im saying i dont think ANYBODY correctly understands depression and what it does to a person and the effect it has inside them unless they actually experienced it.

    Because of my situation i went to see a psychic 2 weeks ago which ws very dangerous but it went awell so im trying to be positive about that!

    Anybody wondering if their depressed go on the site (depression lean on me) and see what all affects you!its accurate.


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    #81
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    pheasant tail wrote: »
    .....
    Because of my situation i went to see a psychic 2 weeks ago which ws very dangerous but it went awell so im trying to be positive about that!

    Anybody wondering if their depressed go on the site (depression lean on me) and see what all affects you!its accurate.

    You went to see Billy Martin? That's you... on the other thread....

    Well .... very very silly thing to do, to visit a psychic when you're not well enough to discern anything at all... that is beyond me.... I do not know what to say to that... relying on someone else for advice because they are "psychic".... but I'll digress...


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    #82
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    kowloon wrote: »
    The poll really does seem quite off, but I think an earlier poster is on to something when taking into account the time of year, internet and only people who find the thread relevant clicking into it.

    I said something like that all right. Nevertheless I would not completely disregard these results. The number of people who will suffer depression in their lives at some point is something very high like 80% or so. And it IS a taboo.

    Its very interesting to me the way people react to stuff like this is you bring it up in conversation (for ever the watcher of people I am even back in darker times). Few and far between are the people who are unphased by it and will actually listen. Most people will become very uncomfortable and try to find a way out of the discussion. Some will do this gracefully, some will throw some appalling cliched statement at you like "pull yourself together". But its interesting to think about why this is such unpallatable conversation for people. Why does it make people so uncomfortable ? Personally I think its because almost all facets of society don't accomodate this kind of conversation. Its just not encouraged. Maybe its an extension of materialism - existential materialism if you like. You have to be happy all the time. Happyness has become some sort of status symbol. You have to have the car, the house, the hot wife and be happy. I mean thats what we see in the movies all the time. Thats what we see in the newspapers all the time - celebs looking happy. We don't see celebs looking unhappy - unless of course its like Britney having her meltdowns and the media turns them into some sort of farcical figure for people to be entertained by (so basically misery is only allowed in the media if its entertaining). (Actually the South Park episode on Britney is excellent on this). Heather Mills is the other one. Sort of tragic clowns for the masses to laugh at. Its the only way the media will allow misery to be shown (outside of the news....which is increasingly becoming entertainment anyhow).

    But the real world doesn't work like that. Britney and Heather are not entertained by all this (even if they are their own worst enemies). Of course Gerry Ryan is the other one thats topical. He's been depicted as either a great hero of the people or alternatively a deceiving criminal aiding druggie. But the truth is too complicated for our superficial media circus. Gerry was a complexman with reallife problems. Too complicated for us to understand from a distance. And ultimately those problems destroyed him. And actually its nothing sort of tragic. But the way things work doesn't allow him to be depicted as a flawed man who succumbed to his weakness - it has to cast him in roles as either a good guy or a bad guy. Its all about the sensationalism - the scandals and the gossip. They don't want to tell us about the human tragedy of it - the problems he was having etc etc (except in a sensational scandalous manner).

    But I'm in danger of wandering off topic. Point is - people don't seem to want to hear about depressing things. Maybe thats normal. Maybe we shouldn't want to hear that stuff. But its a BIG problem in our society - especially if you happen to be depressed.


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    #83
    pheasant tail
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭pheasant tail


    t0mm13b wrote: »
    You went to see Billy Martin? That's you... on the other thread....

    Well .... very very silly thing to do, to visit a psychic when you're not well enough to discern anything at all... that is beyond me.... I do not know what to say to that... relying on someone else for advice because they are "psychic".... but I'll digress...


    Yaaa i know it was stupid and silly,,i didnt go for fun or entertaining purposes,,it was out of pure desperation and i went in absolutely praying for some long over due luck,,i know it was so dangerous i said that,,i was happy with how it went,,said it would last 6 months more,im not asking you to say anything tommy!


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    #84
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    What should also be considered is the fact there are various types of depression, and varying degrees of severity. At either end of the scale: something like bipolar disorder is a psychiatric condition and requires medication, but mild depression is more of an emotional condition and might require a small course of anti-depressants, but might not either. Counselling and developing new ways of thinking might be enough. When people say "Snap out of it" they obviously don't have much of an understanding, however there are cases of depression where the person who has it can do stuff to help themselves - they need support to do that though, obviously.


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    #85
    Sea Sharp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Sea Sharp


    I went in and out of phases of depression from the age of 16 to 20. It peaked around 19 and I can genuinely say that I reached a quality of life that wasn't worth living.
    I chose not to get medical help and opted for figuring it out myself but, looking back, I probably should have. I'm proud that I managed to get myself back to 'normal' alone, but I know now that it could have been so much easier with help from others.


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    #86
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    If you suffer depression, you really need to speak to someone equipped to deal with it. An ex of mine suffered depression and used it to stop me ending our relationship. He refused to get help and also threathened suicide if I spoke to anyone about it. Years later (after we had broken up) he rang me again and asked me to get back with him. I said no, that night he shot himself. This led me to my own period of depression, I lost friends, all of them but one. I lost my job bcause I rang in sick so often. I would get so so angry at my poor bf for nothing, I realise how I was trying to push him away too. I 100% blamed myself. With the help of my now husband I pulled myself out of it but I've had times of extreme saddness since. I wouldn't call it depression, but I'm certainly "lower" than I should be a lot of the time.

    Recently I had a medical condition which didn't go with months of antibiotics, I had also changed my pill. Both of these can have an effect on your body. I was at home all the time due to job loss and money was a worry. I went to the doctor to get another antibiotic and got upset in the surgery. I am not depressed, but everything happening to me was taking it's toll both physically and emotionally. She prescribed antidepressants for me! Absolutely not necessary. Surely any doctor should have a look at their charts and see how changes in medication can be the cause of feeling low, even the fact I insisted I didn't need them and that I was only feeling bad the last few weeks didn't sway her. Apparently I was in denial. :rolleyes:

    EDIT: Good on you for bringing it up OP, it's something that needs to be discussed and made less taboo. As a general question - would it be totally unheard of for a man to call a friend just because he's feeling a bit crappy. The amount of times I would call my best friend, or she would call me just bcause we're having a bad day is huge! I don't think the same support is usually there for men. My husband tends to try "fix it" if I'm upset over something :)


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    #87
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I was thinking today about when it is simply acceptable for men to even just cry the only situation I could think of was if someone died.
    Whereas society is much more acceptable of women displaying emotion, women would get a comforting arm or the like, men would get a "wtf is with him?"


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    #88
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    Whispered wrote: »
    If you suffer depression, you really need to speak to someone equipped to deal with it. An ex of mine suffered depression and used it to stop me ending our relationship. He refused to get help and also threathened suicide if I spoke to anyone about it. Years later (after we had broken up) he rang me again and asked me to get back with him. I said no, that night he shot himself. This led me to my own period of depression, I lost friends, all of them but one. I lost my job bcause I rang in sick so often. I would get so so angry at my poor bf for nothing, I realise how I was trying to push him away too. I 100% blamed myself. With the help of my now husband I pulled myself out of it but I've had times of extreme saddness since. I wouldn't call it depression, but I'm certainly "lower" than I should be a lot of the time.
    Maaainnn... that suxs... am sorry to hear that happened..... glad now that you have a reliable back-up in the form of your husband...
    Whispered wrote: »
    Recently I had a medical condition which didn't go with months of antibiotics, I had also changed my pill. Both of these can have an effect on your body. I was at home all the time due to job loss and money was a worry. I went to the doctor to get another antibiotic and got upset in the surgery. I am not depressed, but everything happening to me was taking it's toll both physically and emotionally. She prescribed antidepressants for me! Absolutely not necessary. Surely any doctor should have a look at their charts and see how changes in medication can be the cause of feeling low, even the fact I insisted I didn't need them and that I was only feeling bad the last few weeks didn't sway her. Apparently I was in denial. :rolleyes:

    I reckon you should switch to another GP.... that GP is not compassionate enough to understand!!! Sheesh.... If that happened to me I'd ditch 'em and get a new GP.... thing is... some are nice, some are bad.... and y'know what - there's always a rotten few in a bag of spuds..... (well metaphorically) :D

    To be really honest - I'm starting to laugh more... thank fcuk for the boardsie and I just sit there and read some threads - something to keep me focussed on and be positive in replying to threads - something to make me laugh, something to bring a smile to my face... something to make me go WTF... something to rouse my anger in a positive sense by replying quickly and saying yada blah blah... Christ! It's a fcukin sanity saver.... :D


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    #89
    CorkMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭CorkMan


    pheasant tail wrote: »
    im glad i came accross this thread,,i have been depressed since summer time,,has been awful,,didnt make it back to college and havent drank or went out,,suicide attempt,,pushing friends away etc because of it,,depression truely is in my opinion the WORST illness a person can feel,truely horible..! all advise welcome:)
    I am seeing a pschyarist now for 4 months around,,ive been on so so many different tablets and treatments,,im been changed now again in january and i just need a bit of luck,,everything is so impossible,even things that would usually make me happy,,would just last for a really small time and drift back out of me,so frustrating!!!!!:mad::mad:

    Nothing is impossible. Nothing, the complete other end of everything.

    I suffered from depression before. It crept up on me when I was 16 years old, a year after I left secondary school. When I was 19 I spend 3 months in hospital, taking medication and trying to relax. I was 13.5 stone before I went into hospital, in a year I gained 10 stone from the medication. Don't get me wrong, I was a solid 18.5 stone before I got down to 13.5 stone, but I thought I was fat at 18.5 stone, so I probably gained 5 stone from the meds. They overdid the meds a bit IMO.

    But the meds were great at the end of 2005-06, the exact same thoughts were in my head from Summer 04 to winter 06. I took 20MG prozac and it pulled me up a bit, them recurring thoughts left me and I started to get burst of happiness from the prozac. They put me on more meds in hospital, so I took more meds from Summer 06-March 08. I went off the meds all of a sudden in Dec 07 and felt being "wreckless", my thougts more liberal. I "mock-i-ya" tried to top myself in front of the gardai, I realised I was becoming more dependant on staying in hospital.

    In March 08 while still on the meds, I was starting to get down. This is when I realised the meds I was taking from summer 06 was bringing me down. The 20MG prozac from Dec 05 was alright, but the smartie brigade handed out more. Since I went off the meds then I have been fine, God bless me.


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    #90
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,278 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I was thinking today about when it is simply acceptable for men to even just cry the only situation I could think of was if someone died.
    Whereas society is much more acceptable of women displaying emotion, women would get a comforting arm or the like, men would get a "wtf is with him?"

    You can cry when your dog dies or when your team loses. Dem are man rulez.


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    #91
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    kowloon wrote: »
    You can cry when your dog dies or when your team loses. Dem are man rulez.

    Also your allowed sneak a few tears at the end of Braveheart.

    But you have to say something like...oh my eyes are sore or i have a cold as a lame cover-up excuse for subtle weeping. Maybe pretend to yawn.


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