Being a young male in Ireland

Raze_them_all · 07-12-2010 7:40pm #1

Lately I've been thinking like many young males of leaving the country.

I'm 22, my passed job experience has been as a labourer, apprentice plumber and a doorman. As you can imagine my job prospects aren't that great, so I went off and got qualified as a gym instructer and a personal trainer(3700e funded by myself) can't get a job for the life of me.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone else think that the worst thing you can be is a young male that had previous experience in construction? I mean I'm more qualified than most people who stand around "working in gyms" hell I even helped to set up a mixed martial arts gym!

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

donfers · 07-12-2010 7:53pm

I understand the resentment among young males in Ireland, they're by far the most fcuked-over least respected most ridiculed least defended group in Ireland, all the "causes" you hear about in the media on a daily basis are how badly immigrants or pensioners or women or kids are treated yet the young male is assumed to be ok and must stoically endure all that befalls him, must not complain or show emotion or else he is a "whinger/complainer" or told to man up.

Hence the huge suicide rates in this group compared to all others, they receive absolutely no support and are victimised constantly by the other groups just for being white males when they have absolutely no control over the injustices that happen to the other groups (superclass of business leaders, ceo's, advisory groups, civil servants are the ones to blame not some random young guy).

Basically they must carry the burden for themselves and others and not once protest about their sorry fate. Not a nice situation to be in but remember lads, mustn't complain, man up, don't be a whinger and all that

Mr Marri · 07-12-2010 9:48pm

Not young any more, but I can remember what it is like.
Regarding construction it is about as usefull as a rare std at the moment. If i was in your shoes I would look at a rebrand.

I personally am proud to be a man. we have done so much good in this world the list is literally endless and we should never forget this.
We need to speak up and stop letting others (media, goverment) define what we are.
Yes, chin up, but only because we know there is no problem we (men) collectively can't solve.

HavingCrack · 07-12-2010 10:08pm

I'm doing a degree in college at the minute so I don't have pound the streets looking for a full time job yet thankfully. However I've pretty much given up much hope of ever getting part time work anywhere and I'm beginning to suspect it's because I'm male. I've tried supermarkets, Mcdonalds, call centres, restaurants, cleaners, shops etc and nothing. But I know lots and lots of young women who've gone for similar jobs and gotten three interviews in a week no problem. I know one girl whoose left her job and walked into another one within a week twice in retail. Now it might be my experience coming into play but I really doubt it. Some of the girls finding work ahead of me definately are at least on the same level but they find it no problem. I notice the same thing amongst all other young men in Ireland. Maybe I'm imagining it but.....

Fox McCloud · 07-12-2010 10:30pm

Sorry to jump in but maybe there are no mens support groups or mens advocacy groups because men never set them up? Everyone else you listed has to fight their corner.. they have to fight it themselves it doesnt get 'done' by anyone else.

I certainly would envy anyone coming out of construction now who assumed (as it rightfully should be) that hard work would be enough to keep themselves in jobs.

The only ones who can change attitudes towards men are men. All this dont be a whinger bullsh*t comes from men and is directed to other men out of whatever insecurity or issues or whatever.. Why not set up a post construction support group in you area? Try set up a few more in different areas... bingo ya have a network and base for a lobby group

Raze_them_all · 07-12-2010 11:13pm

Mr Marri wrote: »

Not young any more, but I can remember what it is like.
Regarding construction it is about as usefull as a rare std at the moment. If i was in your shoes I would look at a rebrand.

I personally am proud to be a man. we have done so much good in this world the list is literally endless and we should never forget this.
We need to speak up and stop letting others (media, goverment) define what we are.
Yes, chin up, but only because we know there is no problem we (men) collectively can't solve.

As I stated I spent 3700 euro of my own money becomes a qualified personal trainer, which apparently is something not funded by the government.

Bucklesman · 07-12-2010 11:19pm

HavingCrack wrote: »

I'm doing a degree in college at the minute so I don't have pound the streets looking for a full time job yet thankfully. However I've pretty much given up much hope of ever getting part time work anywhere and I'm beginning to suspect it's because I'm male. I've tried supermarkets, Mcdonalds, call centres, restaurants, cleaners, shops etc and nothing. But I know lots and lots of young women who've gone for similar jobs and gotten three interviews in a week no problem. I know one girl whoose left her job and walked into another one within a week twice in retail. Now it might be my experience coming into play but I really doubt it. Some of the girls finding work ahead of me definately are at least on the same level but they find it no problem. I notice the same thing amongst all other young men in Ireland. Maybe I'm imagining it but.....

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

donfers · 07-12-2010 11:40pm

Fox McCloud wrote: »

Sorry to jump in but maybe there are no mens support groups or mens advocacy groups because men never set them up? Everyone else you listed has to fight their corner.. they have to fight it themselves it doesnt get 'done' by anyone else.

I certainly would envy anyone coming out of construction now who assumed (as it rightfully should be) that hard work would be enough to keep themselves in jobs.

The only ones who can change attitudes towards men are men. All this dont be a whinger bullsh*t comes from men and is directed to other men out of whatever insecurity or issues or whatever.. Why not set up a post construction support group in you area? Try set up a few more in different areas... bingo ya have a network and base for a lobby group

I disagree with every statement in this post, particularly the part in bold.

oh and let me add the following, if a young white man loses his job or gets treated badly in any kind of legal, political or societal situation he must take it on the chin and accept the responsibility for what has happened, he can't blame any inadequacies, incompetence or failings on racism or xenophobia or homophobia or ageism or sexism or misogyny etc etc

I don't doubt there are genuine cases when the above stuff occurs, however it must be unbelievably tough for the young white male knowing that when stuff goes wrong in his life he can't shift the responsibility and blame it on some unseen conspiratorial forces, he must accept his failures and that's why so many of us get pissed off when we see those cards playing too easily and too readily by anybody but the young white male man,when something bad happens to the other groups they can say it's to do with some kind of discrimination and it's nothing to do with their own abilities.

When **** happens to the young white male it's always always his fault, his failures, him being a useless loser and nobody gives a flying fcuk - his burden is he can't blame anything or anyone else for his failures, he must take responsibility for not succeeding, others have the luxury of saying their lack of success is not their responsibility but some dark discrimatory demons preying on them.

These demons do exist of course but they prey on all of us and they're not as prevalent as some would have you believe.

**** happens, you see, but only the young white male doesn't have the right to protest against this unicersal truth

Fox McCloud · 08-12-2010 10:28am

So you disagree that its men who keep the standard high for men to show little emotion?

Do you think its women who do it?! Walk into any pub and you will find men slating other men for any reason possible. Its all good fun, but its also what keeps them from ever actually talking about their feelings because they fear they will be ridiculed by their peers.

You also disagree that men should set up support networks for each other? You dont think they should have support or do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? Oh wait..

08-12-2010 12:08pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

Do you think if you were female with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job? Do you think if you were 30 with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job?

It's nothing to do with your age and gender. You were unlucky enough to be born at a time when many young males went into construction. Fair play for going on to get another qualification to try and make yourself more employable, but if there's no demand for someone with your experience, then there's just no demand. Your gender and age don't come in to it

Raze_them_all · 08-12-2010 12:18pm

28064212 wrote: »

Do you think if you were female with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job? Do you think if you were 30 with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job?

It's nothing to do with your age and gender. You were unlucky enough to be born at a time when many young males went into construction. Fair play for going on to get another qualification to try and make yourself more employable, but if there's no demand for someone with your experience, then there's just no demand. Your gender and age don't come in to it

When I see young women with no job experience getting employed in jobs that I've applied for, yes I do believe it is holding me back.

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 12:18pm

Its timing that is against you; not particularly your age.

I graduated from college in 1996. During my first year in college, none of that years final year graduates were able to find a job in Dublin and more or less all of them did more college courses or else emigrated. By the time it came for my graduation, there a were a good few jobs....five years after that, everyone could get a job....and now we've gone full circle.

But so as not to feel too down on yourself....if you had joined the job market in say 2002....when it was easy to find work.....you might now find yourself with a lot of valuable work experience, and a mortgage that saddles you with €100k+ of negative equity and monthly cash commitment of €1000+. I know which position i'd rather be in.

08-12-2010 12:24pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

When I see young women with no job experience getting employed in jobs that I've applied for, yes I do believe it is holding me back.

That's not what I said. I said the same experience. For non-skilled jobs, many employers will prefer someone with no experience to someone with experience in an unrelated field. Do you think if you were female, or 30 (and everything else was the same), you would have a job?

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 12:27pm

28064212 wrote: »

That's not what I said. I said the same experience. For non-skilled jobs, many employers will prefer someone with no experience to someone with experience in an unrelated field. Do you think if you were female, or 30 (and everything else was the same), you would have a job?

I think your splitting hairs there. I'm assuming he's talking about jobs where his training is relevant, i.e. in a gym.

Having said that, the notion that employers in general are hiring women ahead of men is nonsense......a quick walk around any office in Dublin will tell you that.

LegacyUser · 08-12-2010 12:35pm

As a male who is 21 years old, I cannot relate to this thread at all, and I mean AT ALL.

For a start, I have noticed no difference in difficulty of obtaining a part time job between males and females of my age group...

And so we don't have any easy option in terms of blaming something for our failings? So what? I'm fúcking proud that I'm my own person, that I can think for myself, and that I can take responsibility for my actions.

And when I do fail, or when something goes wrong, you know what I do? I go talk about it to friends, family, anyone who will listen. It's one of the best things you can do, share your problems with someone else. But sometimes I feel deterred from doing so, and you know what deters me? It's OTHER MEN. Fear of ridicule, or being seen as "weak". This is the main cause of male suicide IMHO.

There are many valid points about how white men are sometimes treated quite unfairly in a lot of situations, but so often I feel there's some kind of persecution complex going on.

08-12-2010 12:35pm

Bill2673 wrote: »

I think your splitting hairs there. I'm assuming he's talking about jobs where his training is relevant, i.e. in a gym.

But again, it's his experience that will work against him there. Ever hear the phrase "over-qualified"? A gym isn't going to take on a qualified personal trainer if they only need someone unskilled, the qualified person will have higher wage demands and always be on the look-out for something better.

RedXIV · 08-12-2010 12:36pm

He's qualified to work in a gym, thats the exact reason a gym SHOULD hire him

HavingCrack · 08-12-2010 1:52pm

Bill2673 wrote: »

Having said that, the notion that employers in general are hiring women ahead of men is nonsense......a quick walk around any office in Dublin will tell you that.

I don't agree here, perhaps in the past, 5-10 years ago men dominated in certain work places. But I can guarantee you from the experience of young men my age (early twenties) that women are definately being hired ahead of men at present.

08-12-2010 2:02pm

HavingCrack wrote: »

I don't agree here, perhaps in the past, 5-10 years ago men dominated in certain work places. But I can guarantee you from the experience of young men my age (early twenties) that women are definately being hired ahead of men at present.

I don't doubt that. The question is whether they're not being hired because they're men, or whether they're not being hired because the majority of young women are more employable than the majority of young men.

I don't believe that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age

RedXIV · 08-12-2010 3:16pm

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

Bill2673 · 08-12-2010 3:21pm

RedXIV wrote: »

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

Bucklesman wrote: »

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

We should get ye two to meet up......

08-12-2010 3:24pm

RedXIV wrote: »

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

I should have been more specific, I don't believe it is systemic that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age. I have no doubt there are isolated incidents of discrimination in both directions (Bucklesman, for example, has the exact opposite experience to you)

RedXIV · 08-12-2010 3:25pm

I would disagree with Bucklesman, simply because in most of the bars I've been in recently, I've been served by women. Even the bar I used to work in as a teenager had one girl when I worked there out of 11, now only has 3 guys left and the rest are women.

RedXIV · 08-12-2010 3:26pm

28064212 wrote: »

I should have been more specific, I don't believe it is systemic that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age. I have no doubt there are isolated incidents of discrimination in both directions (Bucklesman, for example, has the exact opposite experience to you)

My bad. I'm sure in general its still experience trumps all, just my experience is different

Galvasean · 08-12-2010 3:32pm

Bucklesman wrote: »

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

I don't think that is by and large the case anymore. It probably is in 'rougher' bars where the barman might need to get involved with rowdy customers.
However, I have lost count of the amount of times I've been out and a friend said something along the lines of, "Let's go to this place. Yer one at the bar is hot!" No doubt many publicans are aware of this trail of thought and hire attractive female staff accordingly.
Damn men, thinking with your dicks all the time, you've ruined it for your brothers!

Otis Driftwood · 08-12-2010 3:39pm

Galvasean wrote: »

I don't think that is by and large the case anymore. It probably is in 'rougher' bars where the barman might need to get involved with rowdy customers.
However, I have lost count of the amount of times I've been out and a friend said something along the lines of, "Let's go to this place. Yer one at the bar is hot!" No doubt many publicans are aware of this trail of thought and hire attractive female staff accordingly.
Damn men, thinking with your dicks all the time, you've ruined it for your brothers!

QFT.I know that if Im going to go to a random bar Id much rather have a chatty barmaid to talk to than a chatty barman.

Aidan! · 08-12-2010 3:41pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Lately I've been thinking like many young males of leaving the country.

I'm 22, my passed job experience has been as a labourer, apprentice plumber and a doorman. As you can imagine my job prospects aren't that great, so I went off and got qualified as a gym instructer and a personal trainer(3700e funded by myself) can't get a job for the life of me.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone else think that the worst thing you can be is a young male that had previous experience in construction? I mean I'm more qualified than most people who stand around "working in gyms" hell I even helped to set up a mixed martial arts gym!

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

Well if you like this country hold off, the perfect job may come yet. But if you are not bothered about it then, yes do emmigrate, also it depends what country you think has better oppertunities like the UK, Germany, France, America etc.. Personally I think the UK is good, because of its great law system, cleanliliness. Or even Germany would be better but the language barrier does not help. So yeah i'd think the UK would be better even more so than America because you need to obtain a visa whereas going to Britain you dont, and applying for a visa can be a longsome and difficult task!.:pac::D

HavingCrack · 08-12-2010 5:46pm

28064212 wrote: »

I don't believe that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age

I do think yougner men are being discriminated against because of their gender in a significant amount of cases going for jobs, a huge turn around from the previous situation. Now all this is just anecdotedly, personal experience and from talking to people I know so I don't have any evidence to back it up. But I really am beginning to suspect I'm struggling to find work because I'm male in a significant amount of cases.

Otis Driftwood · 08-12-2010 6:59pm

I do think it depends on the job.Historically females worked in retail jobs and men worked in more manual jobs but with the construction industry all but dead the opportunities for casual manual labour is remote to say the least.Where I work 7 people got hired recently,6 guys and a girl.The main reason 6 blokes were hired is because they were blokes and management wanted to try and redress the balance a bit on the gender ratio.Men are still outnumbered by 6 or 7 to 1 by the way.Of course this was never said by management but everyone knows it.I realize this is only a small example but what I would say to those job hunting at the moment is to try and keep the chin up and keep plugging away,even though I know how hard that can be.

donfers · 08-12-2010 8:03pm

Fox McCloud wrote: »

So you disagree that its men who keep the standard high for men to show little emotion?

Do you think its women who do it?! Walk into any pub and you will find men slating other men for any reason possible. Its all good fun, but its also what keeps them from ever actually talking about their feelings because they fear they will be ridiculed by their peers.

You also disagree that men should set up support networks for each other? You dont think they should have support or do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? Oh wait..

you seem to think you know a lot about how a man thinks - may I ask you, are you a man?

It's not so much to do with fearing ridicule by their peers as some men WILL NOT open up to anybody thus invalidating your throwaway theory......it's to do with the burden young white men are expected to carry and how they are expected to do it stoically and without complaint unlike others

Support networks are not the issue at all-it's about changing expectations within a society as it is for many of the issues feminists campaign on

However, when feminists do it, it's great, empowering, giving it to the man, crushing the patriarchy, they get lots of funding and media coverage and even have created a nice little niche in the graduate world to cover their issues

When men highlight an issue, they are usually ridiculed, called whingers or complainers, labelled misogynists or told they are soft (in my experience, again contrary to your theory, more women than men find fault with men revealing problems, "be a man", "man up" etc etc)

So that's why I think your post lacks credibility

As for the following comment

" do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? "

when people start arguing in this fashion I think it speaks volumes

Standman · 08-12-2010 10:50pm

The fact is that talking too much about your emotions or being overly emotional is regarded by many as a feminine trait. Its not manly. This is the default view of men in society held by many people male or female. Many men will assume that women will not be attracted by a man that is not "manly", that they will be viewed as weak. I have seen myself how so many women proclaim they like sensitive guys, then time and time again go after the "bad boy". There are a lot of mixed messages flying around imo.

myflipflops · 10-12-2010 8:56am

donfers wrote: »

It's not so much to do with fearing ridicule by their peers as some men WILL NOT open up to anybody thus invalidating your throwaway theory......it's to do with the burden young white men are expected to carry and how they are expected to do it stoically and without complaint unlike others

It is a burden we re-inforce ourselves though. That is the first issue that needs to be tackled.

twinQuins · 10-12-2010 2:54pm

Donfers, can I just ask why you feel the need to - constantly - qualify your statements as young white men, specifically? Is there something you're trying to say?

I've enjoyed reading this thread but your posts have stood out as you're the only user to qualify that you're talking about "white" men.

Maguined · 10-12-2010 3:07pm

I think the point he is trying to make is that males of other ethnicities do not get openly discriminated against as governments of most nations try to protect the ethnic minorities, so if something is discriminatory towards an ethnic minority then most people with call it racism and view it negatively.

As white males have no real support socially like ethnic minorities do or womens groups do it is pretty much socially acceptable to discriminate against this group.

twinQuins · 10-12-2010 3:52pm

But the point isn't that "being a young white male in Ireland" is tough, as men of other ethnicities share the same problems. Support networks for ethnicities are just that - for their ethnicities, not for their specific gender and will deal with issues relevant to their ethnicity.
White males have, traditionally, been the last people to face any kind of active discrimination, ergo the lack of any need for a support network for the ethnicity.

The discussion is not one of race and I'd hate to see it being led that way as they tend to devolve rather quickly, in my experience.

donfers · 10-12-2010 9:03pm

Morkarleth wrote: »

But the point isn't that "being a young white male in Ireland" is tough, as men of other ethnicities share the same problems. Support networks for ethnicities are just that - for their ethnicities, not for their specific gender and will deal with issues relevant to their ethnicity.
White males have, traditionally, been the last people to face any kind of active discrimination, ergo the lack of any need for a support network for the ethnicity.

The discussion is not one of race and I'd hate to see it being led that way as they tend to devolve rather quickly, in my experience.

you're the one that turned it into a discussion about racism I'm afraid

the point I was making was that white males do not have the "it's not me, it's some kind of discrimination" default setting when things go wrong that others can rely on to deflect any kind of personal responsibility for the bad stuff that happens in their lives...of course discrimination occurs and it's wrong when it does happen but get this sometimes people say it happened when it didn't, maybe it was you, maybe you were an asshole or **** at a particular task/duty, oh and I'm not sure what you mean when you say white males were the "last" to face any kind of "active" discrimation. Is it only active when the bleeding heart cronies like yourself go off on one about it? If so I'd agree that discrimination against white males is inactive as it's not really discussed, if I highlight it I won't be the cool anti-establishment revolutionary that people like you so aspire to be, on the contrary people will insinuate I'm a racist, And as for the "last" comment, I wasn't aware that there was a chronological order for discriminatory events, perhaps for the stuff that legislation deals with yes but I do hope that you are aware that discrimination exists beyond stuff like getting the vote and equal pay legislation.

you are exactly the type of person that laps up the media driven pc hysteria probably in order to impress the girl next door and I really have no time for these cliche-devouring one-eyed types.

I think discrimination should be stamped out wherever it occurs not just where it's fashionable or where it'll get me brownie points at the dinner table of liberal arts students or where I am told by acceptable sources it occurs

I really get tired of talking to people like you, honestly, it's amazing how similar every liberal fascist you will ever meet is...they all have good intentions but don't realise how short-sighted and hypocritically narrow-mninded they really are

I got the beating of my life trying to defend a black mate from a gang of thugs last new years and while that doesn't necessarily prove I'm not a racist I don't appreciate the insinuation and I won't credit or dignify it with any more words.

twinQuins · 10-12-2010 11:14pm

If you can't hold a discussion without resorting to insults then I don't believe we have anything further to say to one another. I will, however, leave you with this: your bile ridden post says more about you than I ever could.

tbh · 10-12-2010 11:32pm

donfers wrote: »

you're the one that turned it into a discussion about racism I'm afraid

you are exactly the type of person that laps up the media driven pc hysteria probably in order to impress the girl next door and I really have no time for these cliche-devouring one-eyed types.

I really get tired of talking to people like you, honestly, it's amazing how similar every liberal fascist you will ever meet is...they all have good intentions but don't realise how short-sighted and hypocritically narrow-mninded they really are

I got the beating of my life trying to defend a black mate from a gang of thugs last new years and while that doesn't necessarily prove I'm not a racist I don't appreciate the insinuation and I won't credit or dignify it with any more words.

This kind of personalization is unacceptable in this forum. I get that you're passionate about this subject, which is great, but if you don't reign it in, you won't be allowed contribute anymore, which would be a shame. Ok?

Morkarleth wrote: »

If you can't hold a discussion without resorting to insults then I don't believe we have anything further to say to one another. I will, however, leave you with this: your bile ridden post says more about you than I ever could.

Please leave the moderation of the forum to the mods. Getting the last word is our privilege

Remember: respect is both your right and your obligation on this forum. You can disagree with someone and still be polite. And if you can't, you're in the wrong place. Trust me

scientific1982 · 10-12-2010 11:55pm

donfers wrote: »

I understand the resentment among young males in Ireland, they're by far the most fcuked-over least respected most ridiculed least defended group in Ireland, all the "causes" you hear about in the media on a daily basis are how badly immigrants or pensioners or women or kids are treated yet the young male is assumed to be ok and must stoically endure all that befalls him, must not complain or show emotion or else he is a "whinger/complainer" or told to man up.

Hence the huge suicide rates in this group compared to all others, they receive absolutely no support and are victimised constantly by the other groups just for being white males when they have absolutely no control over the injustices that happen to the other groups (superclass of business leaders, ceo's, advisory groups, civil servants are the ones to blame not some random young guy).

Basically they must carry the burden for themselves and others and not once protest about their sorry fate. Not a nice situation to be in but remember lads, mustn't complain, man up, don't be a whinger and all that

That is absolute bull****. If you were a young Irish male in N.Ireland 20 years ago you might have a point. I have friends from other races and you should hear the abuse they have to put up with on a daily basis.

donfers · 11-12-2010 12:15am

tbh wrote: »

This kind of personalization is unacceptable in this forum. I get that you're passionate about this subject, which is great, but if you don't reign it in, you won't be allowed contribute anymore, which would be a shame. Ok?

Please leave the moderation of the forum to the mods. Getting the last word is our privilege

Remember: respect is both your right and your obligation on this forum. You can disagree with someone and still be polite. And if you can't, you're in the wrong place. Trust me

I made assumptions about the poster without any evidence, it was pure speculation on my part so that's fair enough

donfers · 11-12-2010 12:30am

scientific1982 wrote: »

That is absolute bull****. If you were a young Irish male in N.Ireland 20 years ago you might have a point. I have friends from other races and you should hear the abuse they have to put up with on a daily basis.

I think you're missing the point but I can't be bothered explaining again

JayEnnis · 11-12-2010 1:08am

Tell me how its fair that an 18 year old girl got a job in a photo lab ahead of me? I'm a published photographer, I develop all my film at home and I know more about cameras than anyone else I can think of. After she got the job I went in to buy some film and asked if they had any Black and white and she pulled out a roll of colour film and said is this any use to you?

It's absolutely ridiculous.

11-12-2010 1:15am

JayEnnis wrote: »

Tell me how its fair that an 18 year old girl got a job in a photo lab ahead of me? I'm a published photographer, I develop all my film at home and I know more about cameras than anyone else I can think of. After she got the job I went in to buy some film and asked if they had any Black and white and she pulled out a roll of colour film and said is this any use to you?

It's absolutely ridiculous.

You applied for this job then? And you reckon you would have spent more time in the job than her? This was your long-term plan, be available for whatever work they offered?

Or were you going to keep looking and jump at the first 'real' job that you got offered?

JayEnnis · 11-12-2010 1:17am

I'm 18 as well and in the exact same circumstances as the girl. It's part time work to fund going through college and as it interests me then yes, I would have stuck with it for a good 3-4 years.

11-12-2010 1:36am

JayEnnis wrote: »

I'm 18 as well and in the exact same circumstances as the girl. It's part time work to fund going through college and as it interests me then yes, I would have stuck with it for a good 3-4 years.

Were your wage demands the same as hers? Did you make it clear that you planned to be there for 3-4 years?

Did you put your experience on the CV? Were they looking for someone unqualified? I assume they were or they wouldn't have hired her. So the employer has two CVs in front of them. The job is clearly below one of them, and at about the right level for the other, which would you hire?

I'm not saying you definitely weren't discriminated against, but there are many reasons for her to be legitimately hired ahead of you. Out of curiosity, what do you think the employer's motive would be? Discrimination normally involves predjudice, a belief that certain groups are 'inferior', or a desire to keep those groups "in their place".

Kimia · 11-12-2010 11:49am

donfers wrote: »

you seem to think you know a lot about how a man thinks - may I ask you, are you a man?

I didn't realise you had to be a man to have an opinion on gender discrimination. Maybe if you truly believe that the 'young white male' is being genuinely discriminated against at the moment, it would be helpful to have some opinions from women as they would have more than likely experienced some form of discrimination in the past. It doesn't have to be a us versus them you know.

It's not so much to do with fearing ridicule by their peers as some men WILL NOT open up to anybody thus invalidating your throwaway theory......it's to do with the burden young white men are expected to carry and how they are expected to do it stoically and without complaint unlike others

It's everything to do with fearing ridicule from your peers and several men have replied to this post to support that fact. The very reason men will not open up to anybody is because of this (unrealistic and unfair) expectation. Although I do see that you're trying to explain - that its society's (made up of both women and men) fault that there is this this expectation and men shouldn't be 'blamed' for it.

Support networks are not the issue at all-it's about changing expectations within a society as it is for many of the issues feminists campaign on

If you don't think support networks will work - what do you think would help change these expectations?

However, when feminists do it, it's great, empowering, giving it to the man, crushing the patriarchy, they get lots of funding and media coverage and even have created a nice little niche in the graduate world to cover their issues

Yes, support networks etc have worked for women. Which is why there will always be in these kind of debates, a suggestion for men to follow suit and set up their own networks to empower men. Why don't you believe that that would help? I think it's a fantastic idea.

When men highlight an issue, they are usually ridiculed, called whingers or complainers, labelled misogynists or told they are soft (in my experience, again contrary to your theory, more women than men find fault with men revealing problems, "be a man", "man up" etc etc)

Any women genuinely interested in equality would never ever ridicule a man for trying to highlight an issue that they believe strongly in, such as the high rate of suicide in young men. I disagree that more women find fault with men revealing problems - I've never heard my female peers ridicule or call men soft for crying. In fact quite the opposite, it's actually thought of as very modern for a man to be in touch with his feelings and this (to my agegroup anyway) is an attractive quality.

So that's why I think your post lacks credibility

I get the feeling from your several posts on this subject not only here but in tLL that you have been subject to negative experiences by being a young white male, but you never follow through on any positive suggestions for change or development for men.

This is why you might have been called a whinger or complainer in the past. It's all well and good to get angry and feel frustrated with discrimination that has happened to you in the past. I think the point people make to you (which you ignore mostly) is that if you feel that strongly about it (which it's clear you do and fair play to that) - you should do something about it. It's not up to anyone else to make a change for you - if you want something done you can't just expect to sit back and let it come to you easily without a fight. That's not the way it works. Check the history books to get examples of how it's been done in the past. It is never easy.

Personally I feel very strongly about equality for men and women. If you are being discriminated against for being a young white male well then I think that's just as disgraceful as an elderly black female being discriminated against. However the reason that there are 'feminists' (and by the way that word actually means a person who believes in equality for all, not just women - my bf is a feminist

) is because they represent people like yourself who see inequalities in society but are vocal to the masses about it - by way of support groups (which because of their high number of members get media attention).

So imo support groups are a good idea, and if you are a young man who feels that society has evolved in a way you're not happy about, and you feel things need to change - then get together with like minded men and stand up for yourselves! Get a group together and send press releases into the media. Conduct surveys to research how men across Ireland feel about the issue. Get volunteers to talk to primary and secondary school boys about opening up and talking about your feelings. Do something!!

Mr Marri · 11-12-2010 6:51pm

Asking young men to start there own support group is a bit much to be honest as most young men simply haven't developed the skill set to do so at that age.
Relisticly if this is ever going to happen it will have to be set up and run by older men/women so the question is, is soceity willing to step in and help young men? I would like to thinks so but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

Otis Driftwood · 11-12-2010 7:09pm

Mr Marri wrote: »

Asking young men to start there own support group is a bit much to be honest as most young men simply haven't developed the skill set to do so at that age.
Relisticly if this is ever going to happen it will have to be set up and run by older men/women so the question is, is soceity willing to step in and help young men? I would like to thinks so but I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

Ya know I think society would be ready.Id be fairly sure that everyone in this country has been touched by suicide.I myself know of 6 or 7 men aged between 18 and 35 that have committed suicide in the general area where I live over the last year or so.That is a frightening number of young men and it is only going to get worse.There are probably thousands of people willing to volunteer as counsellers or sounding boards.I know the Samaritans is there but I view it as being a little stagnant*.

I think the main problem is not lack of groups,more the unwillingness of men to make use of them and this goes back to the cliche of men being the strong silent type.For alot of us that is a very hard badge to remove so Id be of the opinion that it should be introduced in the secondary school system from 2nd or 3rd year up.Depression and awareness of its symptoms should be discussed openly and frankly with students,male and female so that the stigma that is still attached to it is removed as much as is possible.Our teen years are probably our most formative years so what is ingrained at this time will probably stick with us for life.

I know this has gone waaaay off topic from the OP but it is something that I feel should be discussed.

*I wasnt knocking the Samaritans,they do exceptional work and Im in no doubt they have helped probably thousands of people back from the brink.I just think that they will always be associated with suicide prevention and to tell a young man to call them Id be fairly sure you would get an answer akin to "sure Im not going to kill myself".The problem is that although they may not be suicidal at the time,left to fester,alot of the time this is where it ends up.

scientific1982 · 11-12-2010 9:22pm

donfers wrote: »

I think you're missing the point but I can't be bothered explaining again

victimised constantly by the other groups just for being white males

Exactly what groups are young white males being victimised by? Im a, relatively, young white male. Ive never felt victimised because of my race or my gender and nor have any of my friends.

donfers · 11-12-2010 9:34pm

Kimia wrote: »

I didn't realise you had to be a man to have an opinion on gender discrimination. Maybe if you truly believe that the 'young white male' is being genuinely discriminated against at the moment, it would be helpful to have some opinions from women as they would have more than likely experienced some form of discrimination in the past. It doesn't have to be a us versus them you know.

It's everything to do with fearing ridicule from your peers and several men have replied to this post to support that fact. The very reason men will not open up to anybody is because of this (unrealistic and unfair) expectation. Although I do see that you're trying to explain - that its society's (made up of both women and men) fault that there is this this expectation and men shouldn't be 'blamed' for it.

If you don't think support networks will work - what do you think would help change these expectations?

Yes, support networks etc have worked for women. Which is why there will always be in these kind of debates, a suggestion for men to follow suit and set up their own networks to empower men. Why don't you believe that that would help? I think it's a fantastic idea.

Any women genuinely interested in equality would never ever ridicule a man for trying to highlight an issue that they believe strongly in, such as the high rate of suicide in young men. I disagree that more women find fault with men revealing problems - I've never heard my female peers ridicule or call men soft for crying. In fact quite the opposite, it's actually thought of as very modern for a man to be in touch with his feelings and this (to my agegroup anyway) is an attractive quality.

I get the feeling from your several posts on this subject not only here but in tLL that you have been subject to negative experiences by being a young white male, but you never follow through on any positive suggestions for change or development for men.

This is why you might have been called a whinger or complainer in the past. It's all well and good to get angry and feel frustrated with discrimination that has happened to you in the past. I think the point people make to you (which you ignore mostly) is that if you feel that strongly about it (which it's clear you do and fair play to that) - you should do something about it. It's not up to anyone else to make a change for you - if you want something done you can't just expect to sit back and let it come to you easily without a fight. That's not the way it works. Check the history books to get examples of how it's been done in the past. It is never easy.

Personally I feel very strongly about equality for men and women. If you are being discriminated against for being a young white male well then I think that's just as disgraceful as an elderly black female being discriminated against. However the reason that there are 'feminists' (and by the way that word actually means a person who believes in equality for all, not just women - my bf is a feminist ) is because they represent people like yourself who see inequalities in society but are vocal to the masses about it - by way of support groups (which because of their high number of members get media attention).

So imo support groups are a good idea, and if you are a young man who feels that society has evolved in a way you're not happy about, and you feel things need to change - then get together with like minded men and stand up for yourselves! Get a group together and send press releases into the media. Conduct surveys to research how men across Ireland feel about the issue. Get volunteers to talk to primary and secondary school boys about opening up and talking about your feelings. Do something!!

a reasonable and fair-minded post, i agree with some of it

I am lucky enough not to have been subject to many negative experiences but I have witnessed many and will defend those who it happens to whenever I do witness it even if they do happen to be white males

the reason why it's not about supports groups for men is because I am against the whole "rights for my particular ethnic group" ideology....it may sound naive and idealistic but I will only ever wear the badge of human rights, anything else in my view is ultimately counter-productive

anybody who segregates their own paricular ethnic group is ultimately propogating and entrenching the divisions

These groups are not really about equality at all, they are about progressing their own group (in many cases that progression is absolutely necessary and just).....but the reality is they are all about self-interest and if we are to take the example of the feminist movement for example, you'll hear all aboout crisp ads (but nothing about the many ads with the buffoon man figure) you'll hear all about the cost of childcare but nothing about the cost of car insurance for men, you'll hear all about the unreported victims of rape but nothing about the huge gender disparity in male suicide and on and on........any group that aspires to espouse any kind of equal rights or human rights philosophy yet only highlights and campaigns for the issues that affect that particular group 99% of the time (and maybe 1% token mentions of the injustices against those outside of the group) lacks credibility in my eyes, is open to accusations of self-interest and hypocrasy and only entrenches the divisions already out there

we need to have one universal human rights group that fights for us all whenever injustice occurs, not various smaller groups squabbling for their own benefits and not concerned with the plight of others because their cause isn't fashionable or because they weren't persecuted 100 years ago or because their gender or skin colour or nationality or religion happens to be different from your own, we are all human so fight for all humans, not just the one that is most similar to you, all very utopian I know but there it is

and if it appears I am contradicting myself by always banging on about men's issues or referring to white men then it's not because I believe they are the most discriminated against it's because I feel they are the least represented, when we're all fighting for each other and not just trying to highlight how our own ethnic group are more worthy victims then I'll gladly shut up - the kicker is that suffering affects us all equally, no one group has a monopoly on it and that is why campaigning against the causes of it should unite us all

icescreamqueen · 11-12-2010 9:45pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Lately I've been thinking like many young males of leaving the country.

I'm 22, my passed job experience has been as a labourer, apprentice plumber and a doorman. As you can imagine my job prospects aren't that great, so I went off and got qualified as a gym instructer and a personal trainer(3700e funded by myself) can't get a job for the life of me.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone else think that the worst thing you can be is a young male that had previous experience in construction? I mean I'm more qualified than most people who stand around "working in gyms" hell I even helped to set up a mixed martial arts gym!

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

I've seen pictures of you in TLL, you should try modeling. You definitely have the looks for it.

Being a young male in Ireland

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