Being a young male in Ireland

Raze_them_all

Lately I've been thinking like many young males of leaving the country.

I'm 22, my passed job experience has been as a labourer, apprentice plumber and a doorman. As you can imagine my job prospects aren't that great, so I went off and got qualified as a gym instructer and a personal trainer(3700e funded by myself) can't get a job for the life of me.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone else think that the worst thing you can be is a young male that had previous experience in construction? I mean I'm more qualified than most people who stand around "working in gyms" hell I even helped to set up a mixed martial arts gym!

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

donfers

I understand the resentment among young males in Ireland, they're by far the most fcuked-over least respected most ridiculed least defended group in Ireland, all the "causes" you hear about in the media on a daily basis are how badly immigrants or pensioners or women or kids are treated yet the young male is assumed to be ok and must stoically endure all that befalls him, must not complain or show emotion or else he is a "whinger/complainer" or told to man up.

Hence the huge suicide rates in this group compared to all others, they receive absolutely no support and are victimised constantly by the other groups just for being white males when they have absolutely no control over the injustices that happen to the other groups (superclass of business leaders, ceo's, advisory groups, civil servants are the ones to blame not some random young guy).

Basically they must carry the burden for themselves and others and not once protest about their sorry fate. Not a nice situation to be in but remember lads, mustn't complain, man up, don't be a whinger and all that

Mr Marri

Not young any more, but I can remember what it is like.
Regarding construction it is about as usefull as a rare std at the moment. If i was in your shoes I would look at a rebrand.

I personally am proud to be a man. we have done so much good in this world the list is literally endless and we should never forget this.
We need to speak up and stop letting others (media, goverment) define what we are.
Yes, chin up, but only because we know there is no problem we (men) collectively can't solve.

HavingCrack

I'm doing a degree in college at the minute so I don't have pound the streets looking for a full time job yet thankfully. However I've pretty much given up much hope of ever getting part time work anywhere and I'm beginning to suspect it's because I'm male. I've tried supermarkets, Mcdonalds, call centres, restaurants, cleaners, shops etc and nothing. But I know lots and lots of young women who've gone for similar jobs and gotten three interviews in a week no problem. I know one girl whoose left her job and walked into another one within a week twice in retail. Now it might be my experience coming into play but I really doubt it. Some of the girls finding work ahead of me definately are at least on the same level but they find it no problem. I notice the same thing amongst all other young men in Ireland. Maybe I'm imagining it but.....

Fox McCloud

Sorry to jump in but maybe there are no mens support groups or mens advocacy groups because men never set them up? Everyone else you listed has to fight their corner.. they have to fight it themselves it doesnt get 'done' by anyone else.

I certainly would envy anyone coming out of construction now who assumed (as it rightfully should be) that hard work would be enough to keep themselves in jobs.

The only ones who can change attitudes towards men are men. All this dont be a whinger bullsh*t comes from men and is directed to other men out of whatever insecurity or issues or whatever.. Why not set up a post construction support group in you area? Try set up a few more in different areas... bingo ya have a network and base for a lobby group

Raze_them_all

Mr Marri wrote: »

Not young any more, but I can remember what it is like.
Regarding construction it is about as usefull as a rare std at the moment. If i was in your shoes I would look at a rebrand.

I personally am proud to be a man. we have done so much good in this world the list is literally endless and we should never forget this.
We need to speak up and stop letting others (media, goverment) define what we are.
Yes, chin up, but only because we know there is no problem we (men) collectively can't solve.

As I stated I spent 3700 euro of my own money becomes a qualified personal trainer, which apparently is something not funded by the government.

Bucklesman

HavingCrack wrote: »

I'm doing a degree in college at the minute so I don't have pound the streets looking for a full time job yet thankfully. However I've pretty much given up much hope of ever getting part time work anywhere and I'm beginning to suspect it's because I'm male. I've tried supermarkets, Mcdonalds, call centres, restaurants, cleaners, shops etc and nothing. But I know lots and lots of young women who've gone for similar jobs and gotten three interviews in a week no problem. I know one girl whoose left her job and walked into another one within a week twice in retail. Now it might be my experience coming into play but I really doubt it. Some of the girls finding work ahead of me definately are at least on the same level but they find it no problem. I notice the same thing amongst all other young men in Ireland. Maybe I'm imagining it but.....

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

donfers

Fox McCloud wrote: »

Sorry to jump in but maybe there are no mens support groups or mens advocacy groups because men never set them up? Everyone else you listed has to fight their corner.. they have to fight it themselves it doesnt get 'done' by anyone else.

I certainly would envy anyone coming out of construction now who assumed (as it rightfully should be) that hard work would be enough to keep themselves in jobs.

The only ones who can change attitudes towards men are men. All this dont be a whinger bullsh*t comes from men and is directed to other men out of whatever insecurity or issues or whatever.. Why not set up a post construction support group in you area? Try set up a few more in different areas... bingo ya have a network and base for a lobby group

I disagree with every statement in this post, particularly the part in bold.

oh and let me add the following, if a young white man loses his job or gets treated badly in any kind of legal, political or societal situation he must take it on the chin and accept the responsibility for what has happened, he can't blame any inadequacies, incompetence or failings on racism or xenophobia or homophobia or ageism or sexism or misogyny etc etc

I don't doubt there are genuine cases when the above stuff occurs, however it must be unbelievably tough for the young white male knowing that when stuff goes wrong in his life he can't shift the responsibility and blame it on some unseen conspiratorial forces, he must accept his failures and that's why so many of us get pissed off when we see those cards playing too easily and too readily by anybody but the young white male man,when something bad happens to the other groups they can say it's to do with some kind of discrimination and it's nothing to do with their own abilities.

When **** happens to the young white male it's always always his fault, his failures, him being a useless loser and nobody gives a flying fcuk - his burden is he can't blame anything or anyone else for his failures, he must take responsibility for not succeeding, others have the luxury of saying their lack of success is not their responsibility but some dark discrimatory demons preying on them.

These demons do exist of course but they prey on all of us and they're not as prevalent as some would have you believe.

**** happens, you see, but only the young white male doesn't have the right to protest against this unicersal truth

Fox McCloud

So you disagree that its men who keep the standard high for men to show little emotion?

Do you think its women who do it?! Walk into any pub and you will find men slating other men for any reason possible. Its all good fun, but its also what keeps them from ever actually talking about their feelings because they fear they will be ridiculed by their peers.

You also disagree that men should set up support networks for each other? You dont think they should have support or do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? Oh wait..

28064212

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

Do you think if you were female with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job? Do you think if you were 30 with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job?

It's nothing to do with your age and gender. You were unlucky enough to be born at a time when many young males went into construction. Fair play for going on to get another qualification to try and make yourself more employable, but if there's no demand for someone with your experience, then there's just no demand. Your gender and age don't come in to it

Raze_them_all

28064212 wrote: »

Do you think if you were female with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job? Do you think if you were 30 with the exact same experience you would find it easier to get a job?

It's nothing to do with your age and gender. You were unlucky enough to be born at a time when many young males went into construction. Fair play for going on to get another qualification to try and make yourself more employable, but if there's no demand for someone with your experience, then there's just no demand. Your gender and age don't come in to it

When I see young women with no job experience getting employed in jobs that I've applied for, yes I do believe it is holding me back.

Bill2673

Its timing that is against you; not particularly your age.

I graduated from college in 1996. During my first year in college, none of that years final year graduates were able to find a job in Dublin and more or less all of them did more college courses or else emigrated. By the time it came for my graduation, there a were a good few jobs....five years after that, everyone could get a job....and now we've gone full circle.

But so as not to feel too down on yourself....if you had joined the job market in say 2002....when it was easy to find work.....you might now find yourself with a lot of valuable work experience, and a mortgage that saddles you with €100k+ of negative equity and monthly cash commitment of €1000+. I know which position i'd rather be in.

28064212

Raze_them_all wrote: »

When I see young women with no job experience getting employed in jobs that I've applied for, yes I do believe it is holding me back.

That's not what I said. I said the same experience. For non-skilled jobs, many employers will prefer someone with no experience to someone with experience in an unrelated field. Do you think if you were female, or 30 (and everything else was the same), you would have a job?

Bill2673

28064212 wrote: »

That's not what I said. I said the same experience. For non-skilled jobs, many employers will prefer someone with no experience to someone with experience in an unrelated field. Do you think if you were female, or 30 (and everything else was the same), you would have a job?

I think your splitting hairs there. I'm assuming he's talking about jobs where his training is relevant, i.e. in a gym.

Having said that, the notion that employers in general are hiring women ahead of men is nonsense......a quick walk around any office in Dublin will tell you that.

LegacyUser

As a male who is 21 years old, I cannot relate to this thread at all, and I mean AT ALL.

For a start, I have noticed no difference in difficulty of obtaining a part time job between males and females of my age group...

And so we don't have any easy option in terms of blaming something for our failings? So what? I'm fúcking proud that I'm my own person, that I can think for myself, and that I can take responsibility for my actions.

And when I do fail, or when something goes wrong, you know what I do? I go talk about it to friends, family, anyone who will listen. It's one of the best things you can do, share your problems with someone else. But sometimes I feel deterred from doing so, and you know what deters me? It's OTHER MEN. Fear of ridicule, or being seen as "weak". This is the main cause of male suicide IMHO.

There are many valid points about how white men are sometimes treated quite unfairly in a lot of situations, but so often I feel there's some kind of persecution complex going on.

28064212

Bill2673 wrote: »

I think your splitting hairs there. I'm assuming he's talking about jobs where his training is relevant, i.e. in a gym.

But again, it's his experience that will work against him there. Ever hear the phrase "over-qualified"? A gym isn't going to take on a qualified personal trainer if they only need someone unskilled, the qualified person will have higher wage demands and always be on the look-out for something better.

RedXIV

He's qualified to work in a gym, thats the exact reason a gym SHOULD hire him

HavingCrack

Bill2673 wrote: »

Having said that, the notion that employers in general are hiring women ahead of men is nonsense......a quick walk around any office in Dublin will tell you that.

I don't agree here, perhaps in the past, 5-10 years ago men dominated in certain work places. But I can guarantee you from the experience of young men my age (early twenties) that women are definately being hired ahead of men at present.

28064212

HavingCrack wrote: »

I don't agree here, perhaps in the past, 5-10 years ago men dominated in certain work places. But I can guarantee you from the experience of young men my age (early twenties) that women are definately being hired ahead of men at present.

I don't doubt that. The question is whether they're not being hired because they're men, or whether they're not being hired because the majority of young women are more employable than the majority of young men.

I don't believe that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age

RedXIV

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

Bill2673

RedXIV wrote: »

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

Bucklesman wrote: »

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

We should get ye two to meet up......

28064212

RedXIV wrote: »

Why not? I was in a pub recently in Louth and it was common knowledge that the owner only hired women, regardless of experience.

I should have been more specific, I don't believe it is systemic that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age. I have no doubt there are isolated incidents of discrimination in both directions (Bucklesman, for example, has the exact opposite experience to you)

RedXIV

I would disagree with Bucklesman, simply because in most of the bars I've been in recently, I've been served by women. Even the bar I used to work in as a teenager had one girl when I worked there out of 11, now only has 3 guys left and the rest are women.

RedXIV

28064212 wrote: »

I should have been more specific, I don't believe it is systemic that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age. I have no doubt there are isolated incidents of discrimination in both directions (Bucklesman, for example, has the exact opposite experience to you)

My bad. I'm sure in general its still experience trumps all, just my experience is different

Galvasean

Bucklesman wrote: »

What I've learned is that young males have a significant advantage over the fairer sex when it comes to getting work in bars. And that's about it really.

I don't think that is by and large the case anymore. It probably is in 'rougher' bars where the barman might need to get involved with rowdy customers.
However, I have lost count of the amount of times I've been out and a friend said something along the lines of, "Let's go to this place. Yer one at the bar is hot!" No doubt many publicans are aware of this trail of thought and hire attractive female staff accordingly.
Damn men, thinking with your dicks all the time, you've ruined it for your brothers!

Otis Driftwood

Galvasean wrote: »

I don't think that is by and large the case anymore. It probably is in 'rougher' bars where the barman might need to get involved with rowdy customers.
However, I have lost count of the amount of times I've been out and a friend said something along the lines of, "Let's go to this place. Yer one at the bar is hot!" No doubt many publicans are aware of this trail of thought and hire attractive female staff accordingly.
Damn men, thinking with your dicks all the time, you've ruined it for your brothers!

QFT.I know that if Im going to go to a random bar Id much rather have a chatty barmaid to talk to than a chatty barman.

Aidan!

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Lately I've been thinking like many young males of leaving the country.

I'm 22, my passed job experience has been as a labourer, apprentice plumber and a doorman. As you can imagine my job prospects aren't that great, so I went off and got qualified as a gym instructer and a personal trainer(3700e funded by myself) can't get a job for the life of me.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone else think that the worst thing you can be is a young male that had previous experience in construction? I mean I'm more qualified than most people who stand around "working in gyms" hell I even helped to set up a mixed martial arts gym!

Am I the only young male who feels like that my age and sex are holding me back from getting work and my only hope is emmigration?

Well if you like this country hold off, the perfect job may come yet. But if you are not bothered about it then, yes do emmigrate, also it depends what country you think has better oppertunities like the UK, Germany, France, America etc.. Personally I think the UK is good, because of its great law system, cleanliliness. Or even Germany would be better but the language barrier does not help. So yeah i'd think the UK would be better even more so than America because you need to obtain a visa whereas going to Britain you dont, and applying for a visa can be a longsome and difficult task!.:pac::D

HavingCrack

28064212 wrote: »

I don't believe that people of equal experience and qualification are being discriminated against because of their gender or age

I do think yougner men are being discriminated against because of their gender in a significant amount of cases going for jobs, a huge turn around from the previous situation. Now all this is just anecdotedly, personal experience and from talking to people I know so I don't have any evidence to back it up. But I really am beginning to suspect I'm struggling to find work because I'm male in a significant amount of cases.

Otis Driftwood

I do think it depends on the job.Historically females worked in retail jobs and men worked in more manual jobs but with the construction industry all but dead the opportunities for casual manual labour is remote to say the least.Where I work 7 people got hired recently,6 guys and a girl.The main reason 6 blokes were hired is because they were blokes and management wanted to try and redress the balance a bit on the gender ratio.Men are still outnumbered by 6 or 7 to 1 by the way.Of course this was never said by management but everyone knows it.I realize this is only a small example but what I would say to those job hunting at the moment is to try and keep the chin up and keep plugging away,even though I know how hard that can be.

donfers

Fox McCloud wrote: »

So you disagree that its men who keep the standard high for men to show little emotion?

Do you think its women who do it?! Walk into any pub and you will find men slating other men for any reason possible. Its all good fun, but its also what keeps them from ever actually talking about their feelings because they fear they will be ridiculed by their peers.

You also disagree that men should set up support networks for each other? You dont think they should have support or do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? Oh wait..

you seem to think you know a lot about how a man thinks - may I ask you, are you a man?

It's not so much to do with fearing ridicule by their peers as some men WILL NOT open up to anybody thus invalidating your throwaway theory......it's to do with the burden young white men are expected to carry and how they are expected to do it stoically and without complaint unlike others

Support networks are not the issue at all-it's about changing expectations within a society as it is for many of the issues feminists campaign on

However, when feminists do it, it's great, empowering, giving it to the man, crushing the patriarchy, they get lots of funding and media coverage and even have created a nice little niche in the graduate world to cover their issues

When men highlight an issue, they are usually ridiculed, called whingers or complainers, labelled misogynists or told they are soft (in my experience, again contrary to your theory, more women than men find fault with men revealing problems, "be a man", "man up" etc etc)

So that's why I think your post lacks credibility

As for the following comment

" do you think the magical people who came from the sky who ended slavery and got women the vote should do it? "

when people start arguing in this fashion I think it speaks volumes

Standman

The fact is that talking too much about your emotions or being overly emotional is regarded by many as a feminine trait. Its not manly. This is the default view of men in society held by many people male or female. Many men will assume that women will not be attracted by a man that is not "manly", that they will be viewed as weak. I have seen myself how so many women proclaim they like sensitive guys, then time and time again go after the "bad boy". There are a lot of mixed messages flying around imo.