Freemasons?

Yitzhak Rabin · 14-11-2010 02:38PM

Torakx wrote: »

To Yekahs
Do you ever wonder what connections they have since you applied?
Maybe they have info from fellow professionals and department heads to gather information.
I would imagine some of the head guys in the army would be masons already ahead of you.Would be stupid of them not to recruit those with influence across all sections of society here.

No doubt they have asked people I know what type of person I am.

The lodge I have applied to, is not where I grew up, so I am not too well known, however, I am reasonably well known in my hometown, and we had quite a few acquaintances in common. I was actually surprised to learn how quite a few of my neighbours and friends I played rugby with, were masons. As Paintdoctor said, they are all normal decent people, so I have no reason to think they are anything but a group of morally upright men.

paddymacsporran · 14-11-2010 02:42PM

Freemasonry.

To join, you firstly need to have an interest in Freemasonry, and be proposed by a lodge member. This application goes in front of the committee, and then the members. If approved, you will be instructed by your proposer as to taking your first step. To become a freemason, you need to demonstrate and believe in the following criteria -

1 - Do you believe in god?
2 - Are you a moral, law-abiding citizen?
3 - Do you believe in helping others?

There's no hidden agenda that I have seen in my ten years or so as a mason. There are a series of rituals that are informative, interesting and entertaining that entrants go through.

There are indeed plenty of masonic symbols in Dublin, some of the best in Bewleys Hotel in Ballsbridge as it was a school built by freemasons. There are lodges in many towns across Ireland.

Freemasonry is open to men from all walks of life, and you stand equal to your fellow man inside the lodge. Freemasonry takes no note of religious divides, colour or creed, and should not be confused with Orange Lodges in Northern Ireland that are only open to protestants. Freemasonry in my opinion is criticised by those who do not know it or understand it, and sometimes that is unjust, unfair and usually wildly inaccurate.

Di0genes · 14-11-2010 03:03PM

paddymacsporran wrote: »

There's no hidden agenda that I have seen in my ten years or so as a mason. There are a series of rituals that are informative, interesting and entertaining that entrants go through.

Freemasonry is open to men from all walks of life, and you stand equal to your fellow man inside the lodge. Freemasonry takes no note of religious divides, colour or creed, and should not be confused with Orange Lodges in Northern Ireland that are only open to protestants. Freemasonry in my opinion is criticised by those who do not know it or understand it, and sometimes that is unjust, unfair and usually wildly inaccurate.

[ct hat]

No see you're a duped fool, the sinister inner working of the freemasons are very different and this insight is only available to those in the inner circle, and people like David Icke and Mark Dice....

[/ct hat]

paddymacsporran · 14-11-2010 03:05PM

:eek:

:D:D

squod · 14-11-2010 03:06PM

paddymacsporran wrote: »

. To become a freemason, you need to demonstrate and believe in the following criteria -

1 - Do you believe in god?
.

No caps for your 'god' so.

Owen · 14-11-2010 03:32PM

Di0genes wrote: »

[ct hat]

No see you're a duped fool, the sinister inner working of the freemasons are very different and this insight is only available to those in the inner circle, and people like David Icke and Mark Dice....

[/ct hat]

Don't forget the crab people!

paddymacsporran · 14-11-2010 05:16PM

squod wrote: »

No caps for your 'god' so.

:o

Maybe my god doesn't bother about such trivialities.....But then again maybe I'll burn in hell!

squod · 14-11-2010 05:36PM

paddymacsporran wrote: »

:o

Maybe my god doesn't bother about such trivialities.....But then again maybe I'll burn in hell!

Is that what you want ?

paddymacsporran · 14-11-2010 07:00PM

I will now post all godly references without capitals. Why? Just because it bothered you so much....

squod · 14-11-2010 07:13PM

paddymacsporran wrote: »

I will now post all godly references without capitals. Why? Just because it bothered you so much....

Ooooh, that's bad.

paddymacsporran wrote: »

2 - Are you a moral, law-abiding citizen?
3 - Do you believe in helping others?

Your goody two shoes front didn't last long huh?

PanchoVilla · 14-11-2010 07:15PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

We don't have some sort of intelligence network to investigate anyone. What happens is that the name of the person applying is called out in a meeting, and left with no decision made for the month. Then, if anyone knows anything bad about that person - like they have a criminal record, or if they're a bad person in society, then can be refused membership.

Like I've pointed out before, if you have any sort of wrong doing in your past, you're not allowed join. And if you are an existing member, and break any laws, or do anything to undermine the state you live in, or your workplace, you're out too.

Like George W. Bush? Cocaine addict and alcoholic yet he was allowed to join Skull and Bones. I've already shown that you don't even know the basic symbolism on the first tracing board so I don't know why you continue to claim you're a Freemason.

Yitzhak Rabin · 14-11-2010 07:16PM

squod wrote: »

Ooooh, that's bad.

Your goody two shoes front didn't last long huh?

Why would the most powerful entity conceivable give a shyte whether it is referred to by a capital letter or not? Pretty petty for the universes creator?

Owen · 14-11-2010 07:17PM

ROFL - no, you didn't prove anything. You linked to a site, which has an incorrect explanation. Plus, Skull and Bones has f*ck all to do with Masonry. Still making incorrect statements of 'fact', keep it up. Thoroughly enjoying this.

If you genuinely believe I'm not a Mason btw, I'll happily meet you in the Masonic Lodge in Cork and give you a tour, anytime you want, any day. Invitations yours.

Yitzhak Rabin · 14-11-2010 07:18PM

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Like George W. Bush? Cocaine addict and alcoholic yet he was allowed to join Skull and Bones. I've already shown that you don't even know the basic symbolism on the first tracing board so I don't know why you continue to claim you're a Freemason.

Eh? Skull and Bones aren't a masonic order?

What makes you so sure that your interpretation of symbols are correct? You have no first hand knowledge of masonry. Paintdoctor does. I'm going to take his word sooner than some anti-mason site that resorts to misquotes, and misinformation about "Captain Morgan" for the truth.

PanchoVilla · 14-11-2010 07:36PM

yekahs wrote: »

Eh? Skull and Bones aren't a masonic order?

What makes you so sure that your interpretation of symbols are correct? You have no first hand knowledge of masonry. Paintdoctor does. I'm going to take his word sooner than some anti-mason site that resorts to misquotes, and misinformation about "Captain Morgan" for the truth.

Skull and Bones is a Masonic order. The initiation ritual is almost exactly like that of other orders. Blindfold, noose around the neck, left sleeve and trouser leg rolled up, one bare foot, etc.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/skulls_and_bones.htm

They are not my interpretation of the symbols, they are Albert Pike's explanation provided in Morals and Dogma. I already linked an online PDF of the book and his explanation of the symbols is completely different to PaintDoctor's. I'll take Pike's word over a random poster claiming to be a Mason. He was a Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite after all. Maybe PaintDoctor could share what his degree is and what lodge he belongs to?

Owen · 14-11-2010 07:43PM

Why should I have to? I prefer to keep my online, and offline lives separate. I'll gladly PM you them though if you'd like. Are you afraid to take me up on my invitation? All you have to do is man up, come to Cork, and I'll show you around. Seems to me, I have credentials, I'm offering something offline as proof, and you're the one who's the random internet mumbler.

I've already shown you that all of your Albert Pike quotes are complete and utter nonsense, and yes, Skull and Bones has bugger all to do with Masonry. Course, you could actually open your mind and make the visit, or you could continue to do what you do, link to various shady sites, claim you've done 'research', claim you know 'facts', and refuse to listen to anyone.

So to summarise ... I'm :
Offering to meet you in a Lodge and give you a tour
Have explained everything you've asked
Resigned my modship on boards as a result of the insults on this thread - why would I do that if I wasn't a member?

You :
Will not listen to any other answers except the ones you want to hear.
Quote Albert Pike - who it's been proven is misquoted on every anti-masonic site
Can only link to anti-masonic websites, and have no real world proof of anything.
Think David Icke is capable of intelligent thought

So ... if you start adding things up and looking at things rationally, to the layperson it looks like you're just making sh*t up. I'm starting to think you're a troll.

PanchoVilla · 14-11-2010 07:51PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Why should I have to? I prefer to keep my online, and offline lives separate. I'll gladly PM you them though if you'd like. Are you afraid to take me up on my invitation? All you have to do is man up, come to Cork, and I'll show you around. Seems to me, I have credentials, I'm offering something offline as proof, and you're the one who's the random internet mumbler.

I've already shown you that all of your Albert Pike quotes are complete and utter nonsense, and yes, Skull and Bones has bugger all to do with Masonry. Course, you could actually open your mind and make the visit, or you could continue to do what you do, link to various shady sites, claim you've done 'research', claim you know 'facts', and refuse to listen to anyone.

So to summarise ... I'm :
Offering to meet you in a Lodge and give you a tour
Have explained everything you've asked
Resigned my modship on boards as a result of the insults on this thread - why would I do that if I wasn't a member?

You :
Will not listen to any other answers except the ones you want to hear.
Quote Albert Pike - who it's been proven is misquoted on every anti-masonic site
Can only link to anti-masonic websites, and have no real world proof of anything.
Think David Icke is capable of intelligent thought

So ... if you start adding things up and looking at things rationally, to the layperson it looks like you're just making sh*t up. I'm starting to think you're a troll.

Yeah, I like to keep my online and offline lives separate too, that's why I don't arrange to meet strangers on the other side of the country.

You claim I misquote Albert Pike and his explanations of the symbols of Masonry. That's interesting. Have you even read Morals and Dogma? I have, and it's safe to say I have a better understanding of the symbolism than you do. I've not linked any anti-masonic sites, I've actually done the opposite. Feel free to show me what sites I linked are anti-masonic. Phoenixmasonry is a masonic site.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/

Seems to me that it's you who's "making shít up". Oh, and I think accusing people of trolling on a thread is not allowed, but as a former mod you'd know that already.

Owen · 14-11-2010 07:57PM

If you're scared to meet someone off the Internet, bring a friend. If you couldn't be arsed to have the guts to back up all your claims on here, why are you still typing? There's a real world offer here. A chance to prove your 'facts' once and for all. If you knew your arguments had any substance, you'd be all over my offer, and you know it.

The only fact on this thread, is that you're bullsh*tting from start to finish, everyone knows it, even you.

PanchoVilla · 14-11-2010 08:01PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

If you're scared to meet someone off the Internet, bring a friend. If you couldn't be arsed to have the guts to back up all your claims on here, why are you still typing? There's a real world offer here. A chance to prove your 'facts' once and for all. If you knew your arguments had any substance, you'd be all over my offer, and you know it.

The only fact on this thread, is that you're bullsh*tting from start to finish, everyone knows it, even you.

Are you actually trying to intimidate me on a public forum? Looks like our resident Freemason is showing his true nature. No, I'm not stupid enough to meet someone like you in person. Don't you know what happened to William Morgan? :rolleyes:

Owen · 14-11-2010 08:05PM

Trying to indimidate you? Give me a break.

Yitzhak Rabin · 14-11-2010 08:06PM

Lads lets keep this impersonal if we can. Paintdoctor offered a tour of the Cork Lodge, Panchovilla declined. Lets leave it there shall we?

Richard tea · 14-11-2010 09:20PM

Any way of finding out if any members of government are freemasons?

Owen · 14-11-2010 09:36PM

*beats head off wall*

What does it matter if they are? Would it bother you if they were members of their local scout club, or their local tennis club? It's the same thing, except when you join the Masons, you're told to behave, obey all the laws in the country where you live, and not be involved in any form of conspiracy against the state - whereas with other clubs you'd be allowed to give your friends underhanded business deals, dodgy planning approval, etc.

It's up to an individual to decide whether or not they want to disclose their membership. If the daggers and pitchforks were put away for a few years, you'd be surprised how open people would be to putting their hands up as members. I can see, judging by the ridiculous allegations in this thread alone why people wouldn't want their membership to be known - it must be like how normal Priests feel like when they're called Paedos.

Richard tea · 14-11-2010 09:44PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

*beats head off wall*

What does it matter if they are? Would it bother you if they were members of their local scout club, or their local tennis club? It's the same thing, except when you join the Masons, you're told to behave, obey all the laws in the country where you live, and not be involved in any form of conspiracy against the state - whereas with other clubs you'd be allowed to give your friends underhanded business deals, dodgy planning approval, etc.

It's up to an individual to decide whether or not they want to disclose their membership. If the daggers and pitchforks were put away for a few years, you'd be surprised how open people would be to putting their hands up as members. I can see, judging by the ridiculous allegations in this thread alone why people wouldn't want their membership to be known - it must be like how normal Priests feel like when they're called Paedos.

I believe it matters. Whats the benefit of being a mason? surely at the least its a place where men can do business deals. Quite a monopoly for all sorts of businesses.

Owen · 14-11-2010 09:45PM

Have you actually read any of this thread?

joebucks · 14-11-2010 09:54PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

We don't have some sort of intelligence network to investigate anyone. What happens is that the name of the person applying is called out in a meeting, and left with no decision made for the month. Then, if anyone knows anything bad about that person - like they have a criminal record, or if they're a bad person in society, then can be refused membership.

Like I've pointed out before, if you have any sort of wrong doing in your past, you're not allowed join. And if you are an existing member, and break any laws, or do anything to undermine the state you live in, or your workplace, you're out too.

Do the Freemasons believe in rehabilitation of character?

If a person has fallen on the wrong side of the law at an early age, does this mean that they can never join the masons?

Are road traffic offences etc considered a wrong doing?

Is the phoenix lodge website PanchoVilla linked to anti-masonic?

The interpretation of the symbols given in Pike's Morals and Dogma are different to the interpretations you have given us. Which one are we to believe?

Richard tea · 14-11-2010 10:00PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Have you actually read any of this thread?

Yes, And its mostly you trying desperately to discredit Pancho's findings and information.

Owen · 14-11-2010 10:06PM

joebucks wrote: »

Do the Freemasons believe in rehabilitation of character?

Of course.

Are road traffic offences etc considered a wrong doing?

Of course, but common sense is also used. You wouldn't keep someone out for an overdue library book, or anything like that, but you would if they actually had a criminal record for anything at all. You'd also keep someone out if you heard through word of mouth if they were generally a bad egg - you know the sort, doesn't have a criminal record, but might slap the wife around, or is a bit of an ass with too much drink in them.

The objective in the excercise is to only allow people with good morals join.

Is the phoenix lodge website PanchoVilla linked to anti-masonic? The interpretation of the symbols given in Pike's Morals and Dogma are different to the interpretations you have given us. Which one are we to believe?

See, the problem with Moral's and Dogma, is that it is frequently misquoted out of context, over and over again. It's easy without being a Mason, to see negative words in it. But in the right context, with the right education, you can read it the way it's supposed to. It's very difficult to explain, but I suppose it's like someone with a Haynes manual assuming they know how the engine works. Until you strip and rebuild one, you don't know the inner workings of it.

Are my interpretations incorrect? Yes. Are Pikes, probably yes too. How can both be right? Well, there's lots and lots and lots of versions of Masonry - most people don't know that. Even in Ireland, we have various 'workings' which have different interpretations of Ritual. In Munster, we have Bristol workings due to our close shipping relations with Bristol, so a Lodge in Munster will actually do things differently to a Lodge in Dublin. But in my Province, my interpretations are bang on, and they would hold true for Ireland as a whole too.

Would I be convinced of someone's conviction, and their strength of argument in quoting Pike anyway? Never. Just google 'albert pike misquotes', and it'll show you some of the problems that book has caused. In his desire to write a great book, Pike gave people the opportunity to be the most misquoted out of context author ever, and it hurt Masonry as a result in my opinion. Most importantly, in my opinion, anyone who does quote pike in an anti-masonic rant, is very very lazy, and hasn't bothered to research the fact that it has been debunked over and over and over again by putting the quotes back into context as per the google search above.

squod · 14-11-2010 10:06PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

*beats head off wall*

What does it matter if they are? .

The political influence of the Volunteers combined with the success of the American War of Independence and the French Revolution created new ideals of democracy in Ireland. Following the founding of the Society of United Irishmen several Lodges, particularly in the north of Ireland, made public proclamations in the press about the need for reform of the Constitution

http://www.irish-freemasons.org/Pages_GL/Grand%20Lodge_History.html

Because it's possible they talk politics to each other.

Owen · 14-11-2010 10:07PM

Richard tea wrote: »

Yes, And its mostly you trying desperately to discredit Pancho's findings and information.

But he hasn't made any findings, and hasn't given any information. He's just copied and pasted things, and given mis-information. The questions you've asked, have already been answered.

Freemasons?

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