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jfk taken out by mob??? **Contains Graphic Images**
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this is the famous magic bullet that turned left/right stopped in mid air and pretty much everything arlen spector wanted it to do ,even connally said he wasnt hit by the same bullet and the z film shows this to be true also.
All the conspiracy theorists come up with this lazy rubbish:
They always assume Kennedy and Connally were sitting directly in line.
This was not the case at all.
The House Select Committee on Assassinations produced this diagram based on photographic evidence:
President Kennedy was seated at the extreme right side of the raised back seat (the backseat could be raised an lowered) with his right arm over the right side of the car waving at the crowd.
Connally was seated in the collapsible jumpseat which was several inches inboard of Kennedy and several inches closer to the floor.
At the moment of the CE399 shot - at frame 223 of the Zapruder film when Connally's lapel pops out and after which both men react simultaneously to a bullet impact - he was turned around to his right but his right hand held his Stetson across his lap.
The bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the neck just to the right of the C6 vertebra and exited the base of this throat. The bullet was slowed by the passage to through the flesh of his neck which caused it to yaw in mid-flight creating an elliptical wound at the rear of Connally's right armpit. The bullet was moving sideways when it struck his fifth rib and created a fist size hole in his right chest below the right nipple. The bullet was now travelling much slower as it smashed his right radius bone in his right wrist and it partially penetrated the flesh of his left thigh - probably base first.
The trajectory of the bullet is a STRAIGHT LINE.
This video taken from an award winning documentary called 'Beyond Conspiracy' shows a computer recreation based on a frame by frame analysis of the Zapruder film of the assassination by animator Dale Myers:
This video is segment from a documentary called 'Beyond The Magic Bullet' which used specially made medical models of Kennedy and Connally in positions exactly simulating their position at frame 223 of the Zapruder film. A marksman fired a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle using the exact same Western 6.5mm ammunition from the same height and distance as the 6th floor window.
The results were a close match to the trajectory and the wounds created by the CE399 bullet:
The only conclusion you can draw is that the CE399 bullet was responsible for the wounds to Kennedy and Connally.
End of.0 -
fergus o brien wrote: »i made no claims i responed to yours ,you say i debunked (considering there is one link to one site ) i wonder are you mr mcadams himself.
Instead of attacking me can you look at the evidence?:rolleyes:im happy to let people view my link (regarding the post office box account ) and decide them selves if the name is A hiddel or lee oswald.
The PO box in Dallas was under name A Hidell which was Oswald's habitual pseudonym. I have already shown you that the mail order for both the assassination rifle and .38 hand gun used to kill Tippet was written in Oswald's hand. Game over. So stop with this silly nonsense."2/ i think the link above concerns this issue."
"What link? Be specific please."
i would have thought that was self evident.
I asked you to be specific. Be specific.
i never said she didnt take a photo (look back at my previous post ) that said she also said she took the photographs with her back to to the stairs ,the photographs as we now see them clearly show the stairs to oswalds right ,thats marinas left and not behind her.
Marina Oswald took the photos and Oswald is photographed holding the rifle and handgun. This proves that he owned the assassination rifle and the .38 pistol. So can we please but this to bed too?i think you will find a whole section of my post in bold print ,hardly ignored.
You claimed that the package could not have contained the rifle - I showed a photograph that proves the dissembled rifle could be carried in the package.
Oswald's fingerprints were found on the paper along with fibers that closely match the blanket in the Paine garage.
It is quite obvious that Oswald must have taken the rifle from the rolled blanket and put it in the package and the package was the supposed 'curtain rods' he brought to work that morning in Frazier's car.
So let's put that to bed shall we?one assumes you have 100% proof of this ,witnesses and such.
The presence of the 'curtain rods' paper package, Oswald's prints on the book cartons, the presence of his rifle on the 6th floor, his print on the dissembled gun barrel, the fibers of his shirt on the rifle and witnesses who testify that they saw a man fitting his description in the window in the minutes before the shooting and testimony of Howard Brennan who saw Oswald fire the rifle.
Beyond all reasonable doubt, Oswald was indeed in the 6th floor window and he fired the shots.
So just admit it Oswald did it.:Dhe was an order filler on the sixth floor (so he handled many packages and parcels and so his prints would be on them ) the fibres were never matched 100% to the blanket or to oswald .if he was there on the sixth floor laying in wait as you say how come other witnesses saw him on both the first and second floor.
The witnesses who saw him in the lunch room saw him there before the shooting. Physical evidence which I have already give you proves that he was at the 6th floor sniper nest.this is the famous magic bullet that turned left/right stopped in mid air and pretty much everything arlen spector wanted it to do ,even connally said he wasnt hit by the same bullet and the z film shows this to be true also.
The Warren Commission did not make any such claim that the bullet stopped in mid air. Conspiracy theorists have been making that easily debunked claim for years.
The Zapruder film shows that at frame 223-224 both Kennedy and Connally are struck by a bullet."The physical evidence however supersedes the witnesses testimony."
now who is ignoring what.
Witness evidence is important but physical evidence is more so.
The weight of physical evidence shows that 3 shots were fired and two struck Kennedy and Connally and that the bullets were fired by Oswald using the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on the 6th floor.
Even if there were no witnesses to the assassination, no motion pictures like the Zapruder film - the physical evidence on it's own would convict Oswald in a court of law.
Indeed in a specially convened 1986 mock trial - using a judge, a jury selected from the Dallas area, with prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi and Gerry Spence in the role of defence counsel - resulted in Oswald's conviction based on the evidence.
The case against Oswald is air-tight. He did it. Admit he did it for goodness sake man.;)0 -
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fergus o brien wrote: »"Instead of attacking me can you look at the evidence?"
i am not attacking anyone im responding to the 20 claims you posted ,im sure you have responded to many such claims your self.
"The PO box in Dallas was under name A Hidell which was Oswald's habitual pseudonym. I have already shown you that the mail order for both the assassination rifle and .38 hand gun used to kill Tippet was written in Oswald's hand. Game over. So stop with this silly nonsense."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=141054
either your not understanding why i posted the above link or your trying to mislead.
"Marina Oswald took the photos and Oswald is photographed holding the rifle and handgun. This proves that he owned the assassination rifle and the .38 pistol. So can we please but this to bed too? "
again no argument that marina said she took a photograph ,but she also the claimed 2 and 3 photographs and it seems she claims to have taken the photographs with her back to the stairs (the stairs on oswalds right in the photograph) there is another photograph with oswald cut out.
http://www.pimall.com/nais/news/backyard.html
the rifle in the backyard photograph has a different sling mounting to the rifle found in the tsbd .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_9pOsRL0o
there is also a clear problem with oswalds chin ,even oswald him self was reported to have said the picture was a fake.
"The witnesses who saw him in the lunch room saw him there before the shooting. Physical evidence which I have already give you proves that he was at the 6th floor sniper nest."
i assume you know that the motorcade was late when it arrived at houston and elm (they were due there at some time between 12.20 and 12.25 and at the trade mart at around 12.30 ),if oswald was the shooter he could have had no way of knowing that. so he would have had to have been up in the snipers perch at the latest about 12.15 as he would have to assemble the rifle and be ready to shoot jfk when arrives at 12.20 or so . now lets look at carolyn arnold who said she saw oswald in the canteen eating his lunch (where he said was) sometime between 12.15 and 12.25 and arnold rowland who says he saw a shooter in a window the other end of the building from the snipers nest (he said the time was 12.15 as he could see the time on the hertz sign on the roof) if carolyn arnold saw oswald at 12.15 in the canteen he couldnt be the man arnold saw who of course was in the wrong window anyway. there was another man bonny ray williams who was on the sixth floor till 12.20 maybe 12.25 eating his lunch and he saw no one ,now again if carolyn arnold who saw oswald was a little out in her timing and she saw oswald nearer 12.20 and 12.25 this again would rule him out of being on the sixth floor .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ZYa_nK-Gc&p=3BBCC4CDF73A36CD&playnext=1&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y9_d9L6NOU&p=3BBCC4CDF73A36CD&feature=BF&index=5
"
If Oswald shot Kennedy then he had to be prepared and waiting at the 'sniper's nest' on the sixth floor at 12:25pm (The motorcade passed at 12:30pm, but it was running five minutes late which would be unknown to the assassin). So what do we know for certain of Oswald's whereabouts around that time?
Bonnie Ray Williams, a co-worker of Oswald's testified that he was on the sixth floor for 10 or 15 minutes eating his lunch quite close to where the sniper's nest was set up. And as he didn't see anyone there to watch the Kennedy motorcade with, he left and headed for the fifth floor at approximately 12:20pm.Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.Carolyn Arnold, another co-worker of Oswald's testified that she saw Oswald sitting in the second floor lunchroom at 12:15pm. The commission did not hear her testimony (even though she was regarded as a credible witness) or include it in the WR. It was the FBI who interviewed her (It would have posed a few problems for the WC).
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Arnold Rowland, who was standing on Houston street made a statement to the Dallas Sheriff's Department (with regard to looking up at the sixth floor at 12:15pm); seeand upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light coloured shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. "
"The Zapruder film shows that at frame 223-224 both Kennedy and Connally are struck by a bullet."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C06dg7xjAMk&feature=player_embedded
heres the zapruder film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cri43ttTo&feature=related
look at connallys face (non reactive) from about frame 226 ,jfk clearly is hit in the throath behind him yet connally who is supposed to have been struck by the same bullet is non reactive . connally even turns around to his right to see whats wrong with jfk and only on turning back to his left is he hit.
here are john and nellie connally saying that connally was not hit by the bullet that wounded jfks throath
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BbVH9NcDA
"You claimed that the package could not have contained the rifle - I showed a photograph that proves the dissembled rifle could be carried in the package.
Oswald's fingerprints were found on the paper along with fibers that closely match the blanket in the Paine garage.
It is quite obvious that Oswald must have taken the rifle from the rolled blanket and put it in the package and the package was the supposed 'curtain rods' he brought to work that morning in Frazier's car.
So let's put that to bed shall we?"
The presence of the 'curtain rods' paper package, Oswald's prints on the book cartons, the presence of his rifle on the 6th floor, his print on the dissembled gun barrel, the fibers of his shirt on the rifle and witnesses who testify that they saw a man fitting his description in the window in the minutes before the shooting and testimony of Howard Brennan who saw Oswald fire the rifle.
Beyond all reasonable doubt, Oswald was indeed in the 6th floor window and he fired the shots.
So just admit it Oswald did it.
because the broken down rifle "could be carried in the package" it does not mean its proof the rifle was carried in it,oswald was an order filler so its reasonable to assume his prints were on many parcels/cartons on the sixth floor, i have shown above there is more than one problem with the rifle not least the sling mount ,again you use words like could have or closes matches (the fibres closely matching is not a 100% match ) heres a little piece about the curtain rods.
"The Commission accepted without question the landlady's assurance that Oswald's room had curtain rods. Had it conducted the least investigation, it could easily have determined that the room did need rods. Black Star photographer Gene Daniels followed many of the events in Dallas on the weekend of the assassination. On Saturday morning, November 23, he went to Oswald's rooming house and obtained a fascinating set of pictures. Daniels explained the circumstances to me:I went to the rooming house the following morning and requested permission to make the photograph from the landlady. I'm not sure of her name but I don't think she was the owner. We went into the room and she told me she preferred not to have me take any pictures until she put "the curtains back up." She said that newsmen the evening before had disturbed the room and she didn't want anyone to see it messed up. I agreed and stood in the room as she and her husband stood on the bed and hammered the curtain rods back into position. While she did this, I photographed them or possibly just her I forget right now, up on the bed with the curtain rods etc.B]7[/BIt seems doubtful in the extreme that the activity of newsmen the night before could physically have removed curtain rods from the wall in Oswald's room. A more reasonable possibility is that the rods had not been up at all until November 23, when Daniels witnessed and photographed the landlady and her husband hammering the rods into the wall. "
here is a piece about the fibres you mention above and about the package which supposedly contained the rifle.
"The Report thus far has done some rather fancy footwork with the paper sack, asserting without basis that Oswald was its fabricator when the evidence allows the conclusion only that Oswald once touched the bag. Next in line was the "scientific evidence" that the Commission promised would link the "rifle . . . to paper bag."
When FBI hair-and-fiber expert Paul Stombaugh examined CE 142 on November 23, he found that it contained a single, brown, delustered viscose fiber and "several" light-green cotton fibers (R136). The Report does not mention Stombaugh's qualification of the word "several" as indicating only two or three fibers (4H80). It seems that these few fibers matched some composing the blanket in which the rifle was allegedly stored, although Stombaugh could render no opinion as to whether the fibers had in fact come from that blanket (R136-37). How does this relate the rifle to the paper bag when it does not conclusively relate even the blanket to the bag? The Commission's theory is "that the rifle could have picked up fibers from the blanket and transferred them to the paper bag" (R137).
Had the Commission not been such a victim of its bias, it could have seen that this fiber evidence had no value in relating anything. The reason is simple: the evidence indicates that the Dallas Police took no precautions to prevent the various articles of evidence from contacting each other prior to laboratory examination. On Saturday morning, November 23, physical items such as the rifle, the blanket, the bag, and Oswald's shirt arrived in Washington, on loan from the police for FBI scrutiny. It was then that Stombaugh found fibers in the bag (4H75). Prior to Oswald's death, this evidence was returned to the police. However, on November 26, the items remaining in police custody were again turned over to the FBI. Before the second return, some of the items were photographed together on a table (4H273-74). This photograph, CE 738, shows the open end of the paper bag to be in contact with the blanket. Such overt carelessness by the police ruined the bag for any subsequent fiber examinations. If this was any indication of how the evidence was handled by the police when first turned over to the FBI, all the fiber evidence becomes meaningless because the various specimens could have come in contact with each other after they were confiscated.
There is ample evidence that CE 142 never contained the Mannlicher-Carcano. James Cadigan, FBI questioned-documents expert, disclosed an important piece of information in his testimony concerning his examination of the paper sack:I was also requested . . . to examine the bag to determine if there were any significant markings or scratches or abrasions or anything by which it could be associated with the rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, that is, could I find any markings that I could tie to that rifle....And I couldn't find any such markings. (4H97; emphasis added)Cadigan added that he could not know the significance of the absence of marks (4H97-98).
There is, however, great significance, due to circumstances unknown to Cadigan. If Oswald placed the rifle into CE 142, he could have done so only between 8 and 9 P.M. on November 21; he simply did not have time to do it the following morning before going to work.B]12[/B Had he removed the rifle immediately upon arriving at the Depository at 8 A.M., it would still have remained in the bag for at least 12 hours. The bag likewise would have been handled by Oswald during a half-block walk to Frazier's house and a two-block walk from the parking lot to the Depository. It is stretching the limits of credibility to assume that a rifle in two bulky parts (the 40-inch Carcano could have fit into the 38-inch bag only if disassembled) in a single layer of paper would fail to produce obvious marks after over 12 hours of storage and handling through two-and-a-half blocks of walking. More significantly, Cadigan made no mention of oil stains having been found on the bag, but the rifle was described by FBI Director Hoover as "well-oiled" (26H455). It is reasonable to conclude from the condition of CE 142 that this sack, even if Oswald had made it, never held "Oswald's" rifle.
i already spoke about buel wesly frazer and the package he saw oswald carry but here are the links i posted earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_-5L...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWaO...eature=related
http://www.american-buddha.com/presumeguilty6.htm#fn10
Your last post is complete garbage because we have already gone over the evidence - iron clad evidence that in any court in the US would have convicted Oswald.
Do expect any reasonable person to believe that the Dallas PD collared the wrong man? Or that Oswald was set up?
Are you seriously trying to suggest that someone stole the rifle from the Paine garage and planted it in the TSBD?
Someone planted a paper package in the sniper nest with Oswald's finger prints on it with fibers from the blanket in the Paine garage?
Someone fired three bullets with the rifle and planted the spent cases in the sniper's nest?
Someone else planted the CE399 bullet on Connally's stretcher?
Someone planted the two bullet fragments on the front seat of the limousine?
Someone dented the windshield and cracked the glass to make it look like bullet fragments fired from behind created the damage?
Someone else shot Tippet and planted the handgun in Oswald's hand and the ammunition in his pockets?
Someone put pressure on Ruby to gun down Oswald?
Who were and what happened to all these mysterious people who must have been involved in the plot?
Do you seriously expect anyone with even a shred of common sense to believe that for almost 50 years all of these people kept quiet despite the literally thousands of investigators who have been trying for years to find some holes in the Warren Report?
Utterly ridiculous nonsense!
The obvious implication of what your saying is that practically all the Dallas policemen who investigated the case, all of the FBI, all of the Secret Service and all of the legal counsels and many others who conducted an exhaustive investigation into the assassination must have been (a) morons or (b) conspirators themselves!
Are you going to tell me that the overwhelming physical evidence is all doctored and all faked and all the witnesses who contradict your conspiracy narrative are all schills or were intimidated into changing their story to fit the government conspiracy?
You and other conspiracy theorists have transformed what is an open and shut case into a vast conspiracy.
The physical evidence shows two shots hit Kennedy, the bullets fired could only have been fired from Oswald's rifle and Oswald carried a paper package to work that morning with fibers of the blanket on which the rifle had been wrapped in the Paine garage before it turned up behind boxes on the TSBD 6th floor. The only logical explanation is that Oswald owned that rifle, he took the rifle to work after going to the Paine residence retrieve it and that Oswald fired the rifle.
You can argue as much nonsense as you like.
The incontrovertible evidence proves Oswald killed Kennedy.0 -
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Joshua Jones wrote: »You know just quoting the official report over and over doesn't make it any more truthful. You believe the Warren Commission. Fair enough. Roger Craig and his colleague clearly identified the rifle as a Mauser. He read it on yhe rifles barrell.
What is your take on the assassination of Oswald. Its proven that Jack Ruby was a CIA agent. Why would the CIA not want a trial?
I'm curious here. All the documentary's I've seen which re-enacted the events have come to the conclusion that Oswald did it and the shot from the grassy known was impossible. Also the computer simulation using all the available audio and video recordings showed everything fits into the official report.
Can't find the audio/video simulation right now
So are there re-enactments that show otherwise?0 -
I'm curious here. All the documentary's I've seen which re-enacted the events have come to the conclusion that Oswald did it and the shot from the grassy known was impossible. Also the computer simulation using all the available audio and video recordings showed everything fits into the official report.
Can't find the audio/video simulation right now
So are there re-enactments that show otherwise?
Oh man if a conspiracy researcher posted a video as shoody as that you guys would have a field day.
What exactly does that video prove by the way?.
But anyway lets keep the thread moving away from testimony which refutes the official story shall we.0 -
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Joshua Jones wrote: »You know just quoting the official report over and over doesn't make it any more truthful. You believe the Warren Commission. Fair enough. Roger Craig and his colleague clearly identified the rifle as a Mauser. He read it on yhe rifles barrell.
What is your take on the assassination of Oswald. Its proven that Jack Ruby was a CIA agent. Why would the CIA not want a trial?
The rifle was a Mannlicher-Carcano. It is not a matter of opinion.
It is a matter of fact.
This is a still from the Alyea film showing the discovery of the rifle:
This is a photo of a cop removing the rifle from the TSBD - you can see the clip protruding from the bottom of the rifle.
This is a photo inside Dallas police HQ
This is a photo of Oswald with the gun
This a picture of the assassination rifle compared with a Mauser:
It clearly was a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38 bolt action.
The investigator traced the C2766 identification and found it had been purchased by mail order in Oswald's hand writing.
It was clearly Oswald's gun and therefore the only reason it was in the TSBD was because Oswald brought it to work and used it to shoot Kennedy.
The rifle bullet found on Connally's stretcher was fired with the weapon.
The two bullet fragments found in the limousine came from a bullet fired by the weapon.
Case closed.0 -
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fergus o brien wrote: »well you posted 20 claims/points that you believe proves the warren commission case ,so people are entitled to rebut those claims if they feel they are in anyway inaccurate. which is why i replied to all your points in detail.
"You and other conspiracy theorists have transformed what is an open and shut case into a vast conspiracy."
so i made up all the stuff i posted in this thread (plucked it out of no where ) because it makes the case for conspiracy.not one but all of the staff who saw the rear of jfks head said it had a massive hole in it (this is not seen in the autopsy photographs ) 50 plus witnesses said that shots came from the grassy knoll area ,witnesses saw oswald on the first and second floor at different times between 11.50 and 12.25 ,bonny ray williams was on the 6th floor till 12.20 maybe 12.25 he never saw oswald ,witnesses say they saw 2 men on the 6th floor ,but you say its all garbage made up by conspiracy theorist.
"The physical evidence shows two shots hit Kennedy, the bullets fired could only have been fired from Oswald's rifle and Oswald carried a paper package to work that morning with fibers of the blanket on which the rifle had been wrapped in the Paine garage before it turned up behind boxes on the TSBD 6th floor. The only logical explanation is that Oswald owned that rifle, he took the rifle to work after going to the Paine residence retrieve it and that Oswald fired the rifle.
You can argue as much nonsense as you like."
i posted what the wc expert said about the fibres and you choose to ignore it and stick to the official story . you as did the wc ignored the un shakeable testimony of buel wesley frazier and his sister regarding the package ,you ignored the evidence that the package (that supposedly contained the well oiled rifle) had no marks or oil on it what so ever .
"I was also requested . . . to examine the bag to determine if there were any significant markings or scratches or abrasions or anything by which it could be associated with the rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, that is, could I find any markings that I could tie to that rifle....And I couldn't find any such markings"
i posted a link which shows lee oswalds application for a post office box in the name of lee h oswald (not a hiddel ) the purpose of my posting that link was to show that only post/packages for lee oswald would be delivered to that post office box . here is the link again .
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=141054
now who is attacking who ? ,your the one saying all my posts are nonsense and garbage (ill let people judge that for them selves).
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
people can read roger craigs account of the rifle that was found in the tsbd in the above link.
here are few videos of craig saying the same stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WQr4y1j4Gw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WQr4y1j4Gw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFEx8hjD8kE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygDvRpam_w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hygDvRpam_w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COKE8gVTOuU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AqqNKsWCGY&feature=related
here is seymore weitzman sworn affidavit on finding the mauser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AqqNKsWCGY&feature=related
craig said you could see mauser 7.65 printed on the rifle (some people say this is not the case )have a look here .
http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?topic=392.0.
The package had Oswald's fingerprints on it and fibers closely matching the blanket in the Paine garage.
The dissembled Mannlicher-Carcano fits inside the package.
The package and the Mannlicher-Carcano were found on the 6th floor.
Oswald's palm print was on the rifle barrel and his shirt fibers were in the crevice between the butt plate and the wooden stock.
The evidence is irrefutable.
So just cut the nonsense.
The rear of Kennedy's head did not have a big hole in it.
There was a small hole corresponding the size of a 6.5mm projectile and an exit wound in the top front right side of the skull.
These are the autopsy pictures and x-rays of the head.
These are stills from the Zapruder film.
The top front right of the head has been blasted out.
If you want to ignore iron-clad evidence but still expect to continue a debate with any reasonable person you are very much mistaken.
The only reason you cannot move on is because you have been totally and utterly found wanting and you can't face facts.
I have time and again shown you irrefutable evidence which shows that Oswald fired the assassination rifle that killed Kennedy.
Case closed.
My last post which you obviously completely ignored shows photographic evidence that proves that the rifle found in the TSBD was a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38.0 -
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fergus o brien wrote: »i never ignored your last post (regarding the rifle ) i have posted information on the rifle in an earlier post.
"The package had Oswald's fingerprints on it and fibers closely matching the blanket in the Paine garage.
The dissembled Mannlicher-Carcano fits inside the package.
The package and the Mannlicher-Carcano were found on the 6th floor.
Oswald's palm print was on the rifle barrel and his shirt fibers were in the crevice between the butt plate and the wooden stock.
The evidence is irrefutable.
So just cut the nonsense."
i have already shown the experts own words regarding the fibres , you might be able to get two dissasembled carcanos to fit in the bag what does that proove, in the same post that i mention above the same expert said the bag bore no indication that the well oiled rifle was ever in it .i posted a link also in a previous post (showing the backyard photographs ) where you can clearly see in atleast one photograph that the sling on the rifle is bottom mounted and the carcano found in the texas school book depository has a sling thats side mounted . hardly irrefutable evidence .
"The rear of Kennedy's head did not have a big hole in it.
There was a small hole corresponding the size of a 6.5mm projectile and an exit wound in the top front right side of the skull.
These are the autopsy pictures and x-rays of the head."
im well aware of the photographs showing a small hole in the back of the head ,lets see what the staff at parklands said about this small hole and the throath wound shall we .
http://www.jfklancer.com/3Patients.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hutton1.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5yOhK5ChVk&p=D0E1B0E34918CC1E
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/parkland_boh/parkland_wound.htm
http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/jbkwc.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQc1nlbRlw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQG6dta1VNE&NR=1
"If you want to ignore iron-clad evidence but still expect to continue a debate with any reasonable person you are very much mistaken.
The only reason you cannot move on is because you have been totally and utterly found wanting and you can't face facts.
I have time and again shown you irrefutable evidence which shows that Oswald fired the assassination rifle that killed Kennedy.
Case closed.
My last post which you obviously completely ignored shows photographic evidence that proves that the rifle found in the TSBD was a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38."
i have tried to answer every claim you made and in fact i havent yet finished replying to all your claims so i have not ignored anything. show me where i have been found wanting ("case closed " now your starting to sound like gerald posner ) i have addresses the rifle issue above and in an earlier posts ,did you actually read the posts and visit the links i posted .
i posted seymore weitzmans sworn affidavit where he said the rifle was a 7.65 mauser and roger craig also said it was a 7.65 mauser (the reason was ) because it had 7.65 mauser printed on ,by the way i posted a link showing a photograph of a mauser with 7.65 on it if you care to look at it .
the photograph of the carcano in your post (if it is a carcano ) shows the sling has a side mount (the sling on the rifle in the backyard photograph has a bottom mount ) take a close look (you can see it )i posted a link with a blow up in an earlier post just in case, are you aware that recreations were staged as evidence was moved before it could be filmed ,
http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html
one point i hadnt time to get around to till now ,
the balistics (now im no expert on this as you pointed out in an earlier post )
"Of the three shell casings, which Bill has assured me were found strewn about the floor of the sniper's nest, one of them (CE 543) was dented.
That's not ideal for proponents of "Three Oswald shots; Three ejected shell casings".
The shell in question was connected to Oswald's rifle. As Josiah Thompson (Author, 6 Seconds in Dallas, 1967) points out, "...Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald's rifle, and this set was identified as having come from the magazine follower. Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip ..." (Thompson, p. 145). In the case of Oswald's rifle, we're told that there was indeed one last round in the clip, but it wasn't this one. This one is different.
Jim DiEugenio recently summarized the problem with this:
"Author Michael Kurtz wrote an incisive account of CE 543 in his book Crime of the Century. Kurtz underlined Thompson's point that the only marks 'linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks from the magazine follower.' Yet he goes on to write that this could not have been done on the day of the assassination since it was not the last round in the clip. But Kurtz also noted that the shell 'lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle.'"
In "The Dented Bullet Shell" ( 4/26/01), Conspiracy Theorist and Author Michael T. Griffith describes the conclusion of forensic pathologist, Dr. E. Forrest Chapman who in 1973 was allowed access to Warren Commission assassination materials including CE 543.
Dr. Chapman made this statement upon analysis of his conclusions: "CE 543 was
probably "dry loaded" into a rifle. Since the dent was too large for the case to have contained a bullet on 22 November, it was never fired from Oswald's rifle. The empty case, however, for some unknown reason could have been loaded into a rifle, the trigger pulled, and the bolt operated. Dr. Chapman discovered this phenomenon through experiments of his own.
"Dr. Chapman also noted that Case 543 had a deeper and more concave indentation on its base, at the primer, where the firing pin strikes the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics. The FBI also reproduced the effect. Commission Exhibit 557 is a test cartridge case, fired empty from Oswald's rifle by the FBI for ballistics comparison purposes. It, too, contains the dent in the lip and deep primer impression similar to CE 543."
"The ballistic anomalies are extensive.
Gil Jesus has ten reasons Oswald never owned the alleged weapon.
Craig and Weitzman et al found a Mauser.
The report of three shells was an edit of an earlier find of two per this Dave Reitzes reference to Noel Twyman, Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko and others:
A startling, new fact has emerged recently, from where it had been buried
deep inside the National Archives for thirty-five years: Newly discovered
documents prove that the Dallas Police did not find three spent shells in
the Texas School Book Depository; they found TWO, along with one LIVE
(unfired) round.
These documents include:
1) A Dallas Police Department report dated November 22, 1963, signed by
Lt. Carl Day, the DPD's identifications expert, noting that evidence is
being turned over to the jurisdiction of the FBI. It states that the
listed items were found in the Texas School Book Depository between 1:30
and 2:15 pm that day. The items are the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial
number C2766 (allegedly traced later to Oswald), and, an exact quote: "2
Spent Hulls from 6th floor window." Lt. Day's signature is followed by
that of Officer R. L Studebaker, who witnessed the transfer of the
evidence from Lt. Day to FBI Agent Vince Drain, who "took possession of
all evidence."
2) A copy of the receipt of these items by the FBI: "1 6.5 Rifle # C2766"
and "2 Spent hulls found at [illegible] School Book Depository."
3) A handwritten receipt for these additional items from the DPD: "2
[photographic] negatives + 4 prints of each of two 6.5 hulls + 1 "live"
round of 6.5 ammunition from rifle found on 6th floor of Texas school
[sic] Book Depository, Dallas on 11-22-63."
4) The original FBI evidence sheet for all items in theirȠpossession
purportedly belonging to Lee Harvey Oswald, which lists "Live round 6.5"
and "6.5 spent rounds (2)." This report was originally introduced into
evidence as Commission Exhibit 2003, and published on page 260 of the
Warren Commission's twenty-fourth volume of evidence, but -- as J. Gary
Shaw and Larry Harris noted in their 1976 book, Cover-Up -- the published
version's "6.5 spent rounds (2)" has the two altered to a three that
appears to be handwritten. These and the following items are reproduced
in full in Noel Twyman's 1997 book Bloody Treason (62).
5) Commission Exhibits 510 and 512, two police photographs of the three
spent shells as they were allegedly found near the sixth floor window.
Noel Twyman points out that in CE 510, one of the three hulls appears to
be a live round; while the same hull in CE 512 (63) has been
conspicuously blacked out, with a crude forgery of a shell drawn or
scratched onto the negative (64).
6) The original FBI evidence envelope, signed by Special Agent J. Doyle
Williams, which once contained the above-mentioned negatives and
photographs of the spent shells from the Book Depository: "2 negatives
and 4 prints of each," listing, "two 6.5 bullet hulls + 1 "live" round of
6.5 ammunition from rifle found on 6th floor of Texas Book Depository
[sic], Dallas on 11-22-63" (65).
7) And the frosting on the cake, discovered in the National Archives
recently by researcher Anna-Marie Kuhns-Walko, one of the actual DPD
photographs depicting (you guessed it) two spent shells and one live
round (66).
Subsequently a third spent shell was added to the evidence. Whoever it
was who ordered this third shell planted was also powerful enough to
ensure not a single Dallas policeman, Sheriff's deputy or official would
reveal to the Warren Commission that their signed, dated records of
evidence had been altered and replaced, and that a third spent shell had
been introduced as being from the Book Depository.
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr13.html
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/FrazierSpeaks/FrazierSpeaks.htm
""Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?"Mr. SPECTER. And could it [CE 399] have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?
Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely ... The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?
Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile.
Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399. Commander HUMES. 399, sir. "Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist. "From Mr. Frazier, FBI firearms expert:"Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you determine the weight of the exhibit-that is, 399?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Exhibit 399 weighs 158.6 grains.
Mr. EISENBERG. How much weight loss does that show from the original bullet weight?
Mr. FRAZIEɒ. We measured several standard bullets, and their weights varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 grains. One weighed--- 160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains.
Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, was there any weight loss?
Mr. FRAZIER. There did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet. There may be a slight amount of lead missing from the base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than 4 grains, because 158.6 is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, and at least a 2 grain variation would be allowed. So it would be approximately 3 or 4 grains. "
. . .
"Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.
Mr. SPECTER. Referring now to 399. Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall--2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing."
guys just click on the link below to see all the above and more
http://www.jfk-info.com/fragment.htm
in essence what these guys are telling the warren commission is that the so called magic bullet (having examined the fragments found ) could not have caused all the wounds to both jfk and connally ,so that means we have a missed shot /the head shot /the magic bullet (that couldnt have caused all the wounds ) thats 3 so far, so how did the victims get the other wounds ? . as you say im no ɥxpert on ballistics but it doesnt take an expert to read (the official warren commision testimony ) and see that the warrren commission knew the pristine bullet (the magic bullet ) couldnt have caused all the wounds in jfk and connally ,and because this meant more shots were fired than oswald could have fired they simply ignored their own experts .
You are after posting up more garbage.
The photos clearly show that the rifle the mountings of the sling are on the fore grip and and through the rear of the stock.
So stop making rubbish just so you can cling on for dear life to your precious conspiracy theories.
There was no gun oil found on the paper-bag because the bolt mechanism is the part that is oiled. That is internal not external.
The x-rays and photos I showed you of the President's head were taken at Bethesda Naval Hospital after the body arrived.
They are genuine.
If you want to ignore them and make up some story about the body being switched or surgically altered or some other crap go right ahead.
The Parkland doctors never treated Kennedy for his head wound.
The attempted to make him breath by inserting the tube through the throat wound and tried keep his heart pumping by massaging his chest.
Kennedy lay on his back and was never turned over in the ER.
The claims that the back of the head were blasted out are mistaken because the doctors could not have seen the back of the head.
The head was also covered in blood and brains were spilling out, which means they could not have been able to accurately guess at the size of the head wound.
The rear neck wound and rear head wound were only discovered at Bethesda.
They were discovered to be entrance wounds.
The pathologists had to confer with doctors in Parkland to find out how the wound in the throat was created and were told it was a wound that had been enlarged by surgical incision to insert the breathing tube.
The doctors in Bethesda thoroughly examined the head, x-rayed it, they removed the brain and measured the extent ɯf the damage to the skull shattered by the bullet. They discovered the rear wound to the head was a bevelled crater which could only have been caused by a bullet entering the head from above and behind. They found a roughly semi-circular beveled edge on part of the front portion of the skull and a large roughly triangular skull fragment embedded with lead with another bevelled edge was matched to it. This was the wound of exit in the front right of the head where the skull broke apart and pieces detached and flew off. A trail of lead fragments through the cranium shed by the bullet as it passed through the head show the bullet passed from back to front.
The position of Kennedy's head in frame 313 of the Zapruder film - chin down, turned to the left means that the track of the bullet projected back and to the right goes right through the 6th floor south east corner window.
There were three spent cases found on the floor of the sniper nest and one whole unfired bullet was found in the rifle chamber and was ejected by the police officers who discovered the rifle.
This article debunks the claims of conspiracy theorists.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/round.htm
Witnesses to the assassination directly below the 6th floor window heard the rattle of the rifle bolt and shells hitting the floor as the three shots were fired.
This pictures shows where the spent hulls were located.
The Warren Commission conducted a test where three shells were ejected from the rifle rapidly with the bolt mechanism and they bounced off the boxes and were distributed on the floor in a similar pattern to the shell cases in the above photo.
We have already discussed the CE399 bullet.
The Warren Commission conducted tests with the 6.5mm bullet by firing it into gelatine blocks mimicking human flesh compared with the NATO M80 7.62mm round and the .257 Roberts soft nose hunting round.
The Western 6.5mm bullet had terrific penetrating ability and remained intact outperforming both of the comparable rounds.
A series of tests have been conducted over the years - it has been found that high speeds the same round striking bone will be mangled and mushroomed. However when it has been significantly slowed by passing through flesh it will smash bone without suffering significant damage.
The most comprehensive test of the bullet was conducted by the Discovery Channel when they used surgical models molded from gelatine to almost exactly recreate Kennedy and Connally's torsos, with a gelatine wrist block and a gelatine thigh block. A 6.5mm Western cartridge was fired into the back of the neck and the results were staggering.
The bullet almost exactly created the wounds to both Kennedy and Connally - the marksman's shot was slightly off hitting the back of the neck in the wrong place, exiting the chest rather than the throat. The bullet created a hole in Connally's back very closely matching the elliptical wound behind his right armpit. The bullet shattered two of the model's ribs causing the bullet to be more damaged than the CE399 bullet. However it passed through the wrist block smashing one of the radius bones and instead of penetrating the thigh block - it bounced having lost too much momentum. The two ribs were broken because the bullet tumbled and yawed in flight.
The bullet flight was a very close match - more or less a straight line line and proves that the flight of the magic bullet is more than probable - it is the only logical explanation for the seven wounds to both Kennedy and Connally.
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buts its hardly surprising you would do that as the warrren commission did the same because the testimony of the experts (their own experts ) showed that at the very least one more shot was fired one more shot than oswald had time to fire.
Every thing you write is full of errors I don't know where to start.
So I will address just this one point which undermines everything you said.
The time clock for the assassination begins at 223-224 of the assassination when we know for sure Kennedy has been struck by a bullet as he emerges from behind the roadsign bringing his hands up to his throat.
It ends at frame 313 when Kennedy receives a fatal wound to the head.
You can see for yourself by watching the Zapruder film:
The actually time between the neck shot and the head shots is 313 - 223 = 90/18.3 frames per second = 4.918 secs
The Warren Commission said that the bolt action of the rifle could be cycled in 2.3 secs which gives a minimum of 4.6 secs to fire 3 shots.
So the fastest sequence would be 1st shot, + 2.3 secs, 2nd shot, + 2.3 secs = 4.6 secs.
Most of the witnesses said the shots happened in about 6 secs.
This is a video of a man shooting a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38 rapidly.
He is able to get off three shots in six seconds.
This video show a man on a range firing a scope mounted 91/38 rifle. He gets off 5 shots in 5.1 secs.
Many witnesses said the first shot was fired before the car disappears behind the roadsign.
Dale Myers who created an exacting computer animation of the shootings based on the Zapruder film pinpoints the first shot at or before frame 157 based on the reaction of both Kennedy and Connally in the Zapruder film with both men turning to the right.
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl1.htm
This means that there could have been as much time as 8.5 secs and maybe between the first and the last shot which would have given Oswald more than enough time to fire three shots and score two hits - especially if he recovered his aim following the miss of his first shot.
Dale Myers believes that the first shot missed because of Oswald's tunnel vision through the scope as the car past behind the branches of a tree in his field of fire.
In 1967 CBS conducted an experiment with a panel of riflemen using duplicate Mannlicher-Carcano rifles mounted with the same type of 4X power scope used by Oswald in 1963.
They fired at a head and shoulders size target moving on a rail at precisely the same direction and speed - 11mph- as Kennedy in Dealey Plaza.
Everyone of them were able to fire three shots in less than 5.6 secs and the majority got at least 2 hits out of 3.
This is a video of the experiment:
Oswald was a trained Marine who qualified as a sharpshooter.
He was mediocre shot for a Marine but compared to civilians he was an exceptional shot.
However the target he was shooting at was not at all difficult - a head and shoulder sized target moving at 11mph in a direct line away from him from an elevation of 60 feet and a distance of less than a maximum 88 yards with a 4X scope that effectively reduced the visual distance to 22 yards.
He could have easily hot 2 hits out of 3.
He clearly did - the CE399 bullet and the two bullet fragments recovered from the limousine were matched to his rifle excluding all other weapons.
Kennedy was shot in the back of the neck and the back of the head.
CASE CLOSED.0 -
silkworm53 wrote: »The x-rays and photos I showed you of the President's head were taken at Bethesda Naval Hospital after the body arrived.
They are genuine.
Then why has the radiologist assistant and photographer and his assistant both testified in the ARRB hearings that x rays and photographs shown to them as "official" and testified they did not take them?If you want to ignore them and make up some story about the body being switched or surgically altered or some other crap go right ahead.
Have you read the testimony of Humes as to when he recieved the body which conflicts with Boswell, which conflicts with the Honour Guard which brought in the body, which conflicts with others present, and which type of casket the body was in, some say in was a viewing casket, some say a plain shipping casket.The claims that the back of the head were blasted out are mistaken because the doctors could not have seen the back of the head.
Read the Dr's reports and WC testimony.The pathologists had to confer with doctors in Parkland to find out how the wound in the throat was created and were told it was a wound that had been enlarged by surgical incision to insert the breathing tube.
Yes indeed, the next morning, which perhaps why Humes burned his original autopsy report, and maybe the next one. He is doing an autopsy on the President, would he not have the power and authority to have someone locate the Parkland Dr.'s at any hour to discuss the wounds?The doctors in Bethesda thoroughly examined the head, x-rayed it, they removed the brain and measured the extent ɯf the damage to the skull shattered by the bullet. They discovered the rear wound to the head was a bevelled crater which could only have been caused by a bullet entering the head from above and behind. They found a roughly semi-circular beveled edge on part of the front portion of the skull and a large roughly triangular skull fragment embedded with lead with another bevelled edge was matched to it. This was the wound of exit in the front right of the head where the skull broke apart and pieces detached and flew off. A trail of lead fragments through the cranium shed by the bullet as it passed through the head show the bullet passed from back to front.
Care to comment on Humes testimony to the Warren Commission, and may I paraphrase just a bit here. "Scientifically sir, it is impossible for it to have entered from other than behind, or exited other than from behind!
Perhaps you might read up on Tom Alyea, who filmed it, and the spent cartridge cases when found, put in a DPD officers pocket, Fritz, I believe, but could be wrong, and then thrown onto the floor when the photos were being taken. He also states, the photos of the boxes of the snipers nest where re-arranged for the official photos.There were three spent cases found on the floor of the sniper nest and one whole unfired bullet was found in the rifle chamber and was ejected by the police officers who discovered the rifle.
This article debunks the claims of conspiracy theorists.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/round.htm
This pictures shows where the spent hulls were located.
We have already discussed the CE399 bullet.
Yes, which stretcher was in found on? Read your Warren Commission testimony and give me your opinion.The most comprehensive test of the bullet was conducted by the Discovery Channel when they used surgical models molded from gelatine to almost exactly recreate Kennedy and Connally's torsos, with a gelatine wrist block and a gelatine thigh block. A 6.5mm Western cartridge was fired into the back of the neck and the results were staggering.
The bullet almost exactly created the wounds to both Kennedy and Connally - the marksman's shot was slightly off hitting the back of the neck in the wrong place, exiting the chest rather than the throat. The bullet created a hole in Connally's back very closely matching the elliptical wound behind his right armpit. The bullet shattered two of the model's ribs causing the bullet to be more damaged than the CE399 bullet. However it passed through the wrist block smashing one of the radius bones and instead of penetrating the thigh block - it bounced having lost too much momentum. The two ribs were broken because the bullet tumbled and yawed in flight.
The bullet flight was a very close match - more or less a straight line line and proves that the flight of the magic bullet is more than probable - it is the only logical explanation for the seven wounds to both Kennedy and Connally.
A top class marksman, I assume, having all the time in the world to aim,
having a meter to gauge the cross wind speed, and with a stationary target still misses slightly and almost recreates the wounds! And no one knows Connolly's exact position in the limo when the shot was fired. He may have been perfectly aligned or not?0 -
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