Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Air traffic controller

1234568

Comments

  • #212
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    Badger2009 wrote: »
    Im not trying to be vague but it is a bit of both! I had a search on internet after mine and couldn't find anything to resemble the type of stuff it involves.
    Yeah I have done a fair bit of searching on the internet to try to get something to do with the tests and haven't found much. Cheers anyway and all the best with it


  • #213
    donaghs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭donaghs


    For a job that presumably requires a high level of technical knowledge (?), and pays so well from the start, you'd assume the educational requirements would be a bit higher:

    "Applicants must be at least 19 years of age and have passed at least five subjects in the Leaving Certificate (including English and Mathematics) with Grade C in at least two higher level papers. An equivalent qualification may also be acceptable."


  • #214
    someday2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 187 ✭✭someday2010


    The 2 aptitude tests are a true test of the candidates ability so it doesn't matter what your educational background is you either have it or dont have it. Unlike some exams where some kids are just regurgitating spoon fed notes

    Whats more the second aptitude test is as challenging is any other exam out there

    It is most likely that the 20 people selected from 4,500 will all have educational qualifications far beyond those stated above


  • #215
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    donaghs wrote: »
    For a job that presumably requires a high level of technical knowledge (?), and pays so well from the start, you'd assume the educational requirements would be a bit higher:

    "Applicants must be at least 19 years of age and have passed at least five subjects in the Leaving Certificate (including English and Mathematics) with Grade C in at least two higher level papers. An equivalent qualification may also be acceptable."

    The requirement is a high level of technical aptitude, you're taught the technical knowledge.


  • #216
    BollickyBill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭BollickyBill


    Firstly I would like to say congratulations to all of you that got through the aptitude test. The next part of the process is an interview. Don't be scared of it. The people on the interview board are nice people-really. I know them. They are current ATCO's who went through this very same process themselves. At this stage they will just be getting to know you and talk about your C.V, interests, hobbies and possibly education or employment history. One thing you might consider beforehand is the question of why do you think this job is for you. Speak up, be confident and don't have them drag an answer out of you. Sell yourself - modestly and don't waffle on. Controllers have to work as part of a team so if you have any examples of where you have done so as well, have your answer prepared. It will not be a technical interview but one or two very general questions may be asked. Don't freeze but just take a second to think about the question. Best of luck!
    The job of an Air Traffic Controller is a VERY responsible one and can't be taken lightly. You will be trained to do it. It is only technical in so far as you will be taught how to interact with the system and use it to do your job of separation aircraft from each other.
    It is only boring when the airspace is very quiet and there are little or no aircraft on your frequency. As a controller you will monitor all the aircraft in your airspace and issue instructions to climb, descend, turn or reduce speed to ensure that no two aircraft come closer than the legal minimum separation required. The busiest times in Shannon are when the main trans-Atlantic rush of traffic is in progress. The early morning flow of traffic from the US and Canada to Europe and the reverse of this in the late afternoon/evening. The morning rush will generally start somewhere after 3 a.m. This is why shift work is necessary.
    In Dublin the traffic is different in that virtually every aircraft that uses Dublin's airspace has either just taken off and wants to climb or is inbound to Dublin and wants to descend. Dublin's airspace is only a fraction of the size of Shannon's so the traffic is generally squeezed a bit tighter. Shannon ATC is the big earner for the IAA. Airlines have to pay for using the airspace, that's what pays controllers and runs the service. An aircraft that passes through 300 miles or more of Shannon's airspace pays more than one that is only in Dublin's airspace for between 30 to 60 miles before going into London's, Manchester's, Shannon's or Scottish airspace.
    A newly qualified ATCO will start on a salary of close to 50K when all the training is complete and they have a rating and can operate unsupervised. Having said that controllers always work as part of a team and everyone relies on their colleagues to do their job properly. Every year a controller will receive another pay increment until they have reached the top of the pay scale appropriate to their grade. After 5 years as an ATCO the opportunity for promotion to ATCO Expert may arise. This means you will have extra responsibilities . Some of these may entail project work or even mentoring new controllers. The top of the Expert salary scale with 27% shift allowance, Bank holiday pay and some overtime here and there could break the 100K barrier. Not the 160 to 220K as reported in the papers when there was what was called a strike when in fact the controllers just attended a "Mandatory Union Meeting" which lasted about 4 hours but let's not go into that.
    A controller will be required to work different control positions. Full training will be given and a Rating must be attained for each position. By positions I mean as a Tower controller who controls the traffic at and in the vicinity of the airport, an Approach controller who controls the arriving traffic, lines it up in sequence with the runway then hands it over to the tower controller, or you may be working as an Area Radar Controller who controlls the traffic outside and above that of the approach radar controller.
    It is an interesting and demanding job that carries a lot of responsibility and a great deal of job satisfaction. Even after all these years I still enjoy it.
    For anyone who has a job, morgage and or a family, give serious thought to giving up your job to embark on the training course. It's not impossible but not everyone has what it takes. If you find that you are in this category and you get through to the 2nd round of interviews, please arrange to visit an ATC center and find out first hand what the job entails. The controllers will be only too happy to explain to you what it's all about.
    Good luck to you all and whatever way it turns out, I hope it's for the best.
    Regards,
    BB.


  • Advertisement
  • #217
    jelly&icecream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭jelly&icecream


    Thanks BollickyBill for taking the time to write such an informative post!

    Its great to hear that you get such satisfaction out of your work and reassuring to know that the job is very much centered around teamwork.

    Can I ask a few questions?

    Can you give an example of a typical roster? I've heard its 5 days on and 3 off with 1 or 2 overnight duties in each cycle. Is this correct?

    How do you feel the job fits in around family/personal life? Do you find the shift work tough in this regard or with regard to your health?

    Do you know how the assignments go after the training is completed? Are people just randomly assigned to Shannon/Dublin/Cork etc or is based on placement in the class or something?


  • #218
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    jelly&icecream wrote: »
    Can I ask a few questions?

    Can you give an example of a typical roster? I've heard its 5 days on and 3 off with 1 or 2 overnight duties in each cycle. Is this correct?

    How do you feel the job fits in around family/personal life? Do you find the shift work tough in this regard or with regard to your health?

    Do you know how the assignments go after the training is completed? Are people just randomly assigned to Shannon/Dublin/Cork etc or is based on placement in the class or something?

    To save BolickyBill from typing, if you have a read of the thread in the Aviation forum, all these have been answered over its course.


  • #219
    jelly&icecream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭jelly&icecream


    testicle wrote: »
    To save BolickyBill from typing, if you have a read of the thread in the Aviation forum, all these have been answered over its course.

    Doh! :P Just after seeing the bit in that thread about the Dublin transfers and stuff. Dunno how I missed that!

    I did see the example given of the Shannon roster which i presumed was for the area radar type position. Not sure what BolickyBill is assigned to so thought he might be able to give a different one for tower control or similar. Or maybe they're all roughly the same?

    Would still be curious to hear another personal perspective on the work life balance of the job though.


  • #220
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    cheers for that BollickyBill - feel a lot more confident about sitting an interview after getting personal view of the job. Not sure how confident I am about getting to the interview stage after sitting the second aptitude test. Half the tests were fine, but some of them were a bit dodgy


  • #221
    Paulyh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 567 ✭✭✭Paulyh


    Can anyone remember when they said we would hear if we got through or not??? I thought they mentioned 18th, which is today, but I havent recieved anything yet.
    Maybe it was the 28th??


  • Advertisement
  • #222
    inkon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭inkon


    Should hear by Friday 22nd.


  • #223
    wylo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Paulyh wrote: »
    Can anyone remember when they said we would hear if we got through or not??? I thought they mentioned 18th, which is today, but I havent recieved anything yet.
    Maybe it was the 28th??
    well it couldnt be today cause theyre still going on.


  • #224
    Paulyh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 567 ✭✭✭Paulyh


    wylo wrote: »
    well it couldnt be today cause theyre still going on.

    Oh i didnt realise they were still on!

    Thanks for the replies guys.


  • #225
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    yeah I remember 22nd too


  • #226
    BollickyBill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭BollickyBill


    jelly&icecream wrote: »
    Doh! :P Just after seeing the bit in that thread about the Dublin transfers and stuff. Dunno how I missed that!

    I did see the example given of the Shannon roster which i presumed was for the area radar type position. Not sure what BolickyBill is assigned to so thought he might be able to give a different one for tower control or similar. Or maybe they're all roughly the same?

    Would still be curious to hear another personal perspective on the work life balance of the job though.

    Hello jelly&icecream,
    Just looking through the posts and don't see my reply to you about shift patterns and work/life balance. Did it post up ok? Please let me know and I will send it again if it didn't.
    Regards,
    BB.


  • #227
    derdider
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭derdider


    BollickyBill wrote: »
    Hello jelly&icecream,
    Just looking through the posts and don't see my reply to you about shift patterns and work/life balance. Did it post up ok? Please let me know and I will send it again if it didn't.
    Regards,
    BB.

    Id be interested in this too. Its the one thing still niggleing at me. The shift hours posted up in a previous post look pretty tough and im just wondering about the quality of life you'd have. Maybe there are other shifts that arent as bad ? How many weekends do you get off - 1 in 5 ?

    Can i ask aswell whats the reason for the strange shift ? Surely it would be easier on an ATCO if it was a steady 8 hour shift or whatever so say you were on all nights this week, then all days the following week or whatever. All the chopping and changing surely just means you are more tired and so less alert which is surely not ideal for an ATCO.

    Here are the hours that were posted earlier

    Mon: 11:30 – 21:15 (Would you have to organise a dinner yourself at home at 22:00 or do you normally have your dinner at a more normal time in work

    Tues: 09:30 – 17:00 (Home at 18:00, dinner and Straight to Bed at say 19:00 to get some sleep for the 00:00 Shift. Might not be easy to sleep straight away. Especially if theres kids in a few years time.... Thats still only about 4 hours sleep before a long night shift

    Wed: 00:00 – 09:45 (Surely you couldnt be too alert for this after just maybe 4 hours sleep the night before) Back again 21:00 (Again, when this shift falls on a Sat and you need to sleep during the day how does it work in a few years time with screaming kids running around the house on a Sat and you trying to sleep for another night shift !)

    Thurs: - 08:15

    Fri / Sat / Sun off

    Tuesday and Wednesday there looks very tough and even a little unsafe. Im sure they have their reasons for doing it though. Do you know what these are ? Surely from a safety point of view it would make more sense to have ATCOs well rested by having a steady 8 or 10 hour shift or whatever and have the same people on all days one week, and then maybe all nights the next week so they have plenty of time to rest between shifts

    How do these hours impact on friends / family life etc....

    Thanks for any help by the way. Just looking to go into this with as much info as possible


  • #228
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    derdider wrote: »
    Id be interested in this too. Its the one thing still niggleing at me. The shift hours posted up in a previous post look pretty tough and im just wondering about the quality of life you'd have. Maybe there are other shifts that arent as bad ? How many weekends do you get off - 1 in 5 ?

    Can i ask aswell whats the reason for the strange shift ? Surely it would be easier on an ATCO if it was a steady 8 hour shift or whatever so say you were on all nights this week, then all days the following week or whatever. All the chopping and changing surely just means you are more tired and so less alert which is surely not ideal for an ATCO.

    Here are the hours that were posted earlier

    Mon: 11:30 – 21:15 (Would you have to organise a dinner yourself at home at 22:00 or do you normally have your dinner at a more normal time in work

    Tues: 09:30 – 17:00 (Home at 18:00, dinner and Straight to Bed at say 19:00 to get some sleep for the 00:00 Shift. Might not be easy to sleep straight away. Especially if theres kids in a few years time.... Thats still only about 4 hours sleep before a long night shift

    Wed: 00:00 – 09:45 (Surely you couldnt be too alert for this after just maybe 4 hours sleep the night before) Back again 21:00 (Again, when this shift falls on a Sat and you need to sleep during the day how does it work in a few years time with screaming kids running around the house on a Sat and you trying to sleep for another night shift !)

    Thurs: - 08:15

    Fri / Sat / Sun off

    Tuesday and Wednesday there looks very tough and even a little unsafe. Im sure they have their reasons for doing it though. Do you know what these are ? Surely from a safety point of view it would make more sense to have ATCOs well rested by having a steady 8 or 10 hour shift or whatever and have the same people on all days one week, and then maybe all nights the next week so they have plenty of time to rest between shifts

    How do these hours impact on friends / family life etc....

    Thanks for any help by the way. Just looking to go into this with as much info as possible

    They are not the hours that were posted earlier, firstly that's only a 4 day week... This is what was posted in the other thread:
    irish atco wrote: »
    First off, any member of SCP9 starting off will be between 18-24 months from the "live" environment. There may be changes to the staring/finishing times, by the time you go live.

    The school operates on a 9.30-17.30 basis Mon-Fri.

    Each of the 3 stations (Cork,dublin,Shannon) has their own shift pattern.
    In the main it follows a 5 on/3 off basis.

    In shannon currently, the main roster is

    eg Starting on a Monday
    Mon Late 1130-2115
    Tue Swing(Day) 0830-1630
    Wed Dog (Early) 0800-1300 and Night 1 Midnight-0830
    Thu finish night 1 @ 0830 and Night 2 2100-0800
    Fri finish Night 2 @ 0800
    Sat/Sun/Mon off, start over again Tuesday
    A few variations exist, but within the 5/3 stencil.
    In dublin, they work 1 night only, and have a variety of starting times.


  • #229
    derdider
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭derdider


    testicle wrote: »
    They are not the hours that were posted earlier, firstly that's only a 4 day week... This is what was posted in the other thread:

    Sorry, i left out a day. Otherwise the hours are pretty similar. I got them from a thread back on 07 where they were discussing it during that recruitment process http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055128278&highlight=air+traffic+controller&page=13

    Just trying to get a bit more info on it before i decide. Obviously once you go for it you cant just decide after a year or two its not for you and leave as your stuck paying back the training fees so just want to make 100% sure and get as many facts as i can so i can make an informed decision. Id have to leave a fairly well paid job at the moment to go for it so just want to make sure im doing the right thing. Definitely interested in the work but the hours and some of the comments in the other thread do put little question marks over the lifestyle.

    Here are some of the more eye-opening comments from the other thread. (Might have to spread these over 2 posts)

    count yourself lucky you didnt get in . Work in that organisation (atc)myself and most guys in there would kill to get out . Money is great but you have no quality of life with the shift we do . The shine goes off the job after a few years and it is glorified factory work with stress and a bit of fear thrown in. My advice to anyone applying is talk to operational controllers in Dublin or Shannon to get the real picture. Dont mean to be negative but come in with your eyes open.You can get great satisfaction from the actual job at times but decide do you want be on shift until you are 60 years of age.Nights and weekend work can be a killer on your health and your social life .




  • #230
    derdider
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭derdider


    Alan I am sure you are dissapointed in getting knocked out at this stage of the game and i am not saying this is a bad profession. The job itself has a lot of satisfaction but it is by no means easy . The training is very tough and there is no guarantee of sucess. As some one who has worked in this business for a fair while i have seen the best of people come in full of hope to become disheartened after a few years on operations. For as long as i can remember it impossible to get casual leave even for christenings, communions etc and you depend on the goodwill of your colleagues to do a duty swap to help you out . Most controllers are very decent people with a great work ethic and are highly professional people but we seem to go for very motivated people who by nature are very ambitious and who find there are few outlets to display that ambition beyond operational work . The salary is excellent by Irish standards but it can become golden handcuffs that can keep people there even if they want to move on. Again best of luck to everyone that has got to final selection but as i say come in with the full picture to avoid dissapointment down the line.


    Yeah . Take your point. Working in the Tower is great . I have had lots of good times in atc and the work itself is mostly good. Working in Irish ATC you do not control your career and all the new entrants will go to Shannon Hi Level as that is the area that needs the most controllers. What I am saying is the shift we do is brutal on your system and you can work five weeks without a weekend off. The environment is very busy all year round and it impossible to get time off when you need it . These are the facts plain and simple . We are starved of staff and will welcome all new entrants but all they will do is plug the gap left by retiring staff . As regards stress yes there is stress in atc . Try having an incident and see how that feels. We dont have critical incident stress management councillors for nothing. As regards walking away you try walking away from €100000 plus per annum. Still get a good feeling when the job goes well but its hard to watch lads in their late 50s to 60 doing 11 hour night duties where you are busy most of the time. There is no early retirement for controllers. Bear all this in mind and come in prepared


  • #231
    derdider
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭derdider


    reading your messages, i wish to advise you of the following,
    I am an air traffic controller with a fair bit of experience based in shannon centre. The job is tough and is not getting any easier . In Shannon we control out to 256 miles west of Ireland , north to 57n latitude and south to 49north and east as far as the coast of England, Wales and France. The shift is 5 days on and three days off starting at 1130am on a late duty finishing at 2115 that day . the next is a swing duty starting at 0930 and finishing at 1700 followed by 0800 start finishing at 1300 and back that night at 0000 ( midnight ) finishing at 0945. You are back in again at 2100 that night finishing at 0815 next morning. It is a quick changeover and you will be fairly tired at the end . The good news is that you are free for 3 days. On a positive side the money is good starting at €47000 . Add to this 27% shift allowance and bank holidays you start after training at circa €65000 rising to €100000 at the top of the scale. At the moment due staff shortages you can make a fair bit in overtime but it is not compulsory and up to you. Most of the controllers are good fun and like a drink but the shift is hard on your system and you cannot come to work with a sore head as it can be crazy busy and you would be a libability to your team .Hope this a bit of help to those applying.

    Them posts were just some food for thought for me so i was just hoping to hear BollickyBills experiences as im sure there are always people unhappy in their work no matter what profession. Just trying to get the other side of the picture too. Dont mean to be a downer on anyone here. Im in the same boat as everyone else


  • Advertisement
  • #232
    jelly&icecream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭jelly&icecream


    BollickyBill wrote: »
    Hello jelly&icecream,
    Just looking through the posts and don't see my reply to you about shift patterns and work/life balance. Did it post up ok? Please let me know and I will send it again if it didn't.
    Regards,
    BB.

    I think it may have been sucked into the ether!


  • #233
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    Jammy - Got an interview in two weeks. Anyone else??


  • #234
    jelly&icecream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭jelly&icecream


    Yea, I'm pretty shocked to have gotten one too. Didn't think I'd performed to the best of abilities at the feast test.

    Have to try and resurrect my leaving cert from where ever its hiding! I think a phone call to Mammy is in order!


  • #235
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    Congrats. That's deadly. The more I thought about the FEAST the more I thought I had screwed it up. So pretty shocked to get an interview.

    Already been on a search for Leaving Cert results. Cant find them. Apparently your old school keep a copy so get on to them if you can't find your copy. They'll send them straight out to you.


  • #236
    fbfan78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭fbfan78


    testicle wrote: »
    If only people were able to read the documentation that is provided....

    From the Recruitment Guide / Information document:


    thats strange considering your 1st years pay is 51K approx & 27% shift allowance and you have to repay 50k @ 500 a fortnight which is 1000 a month so basically you earn 51k plus shift and you have to repay 50k????
    my understanding of it was that if you got your ICAO rating and then refused to take the job you have to repay costs but i could be wrong:confused:


  • #237
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭testicle


    fbfan78 wrote: »
    my understanding of it was that if you got your ICAO rating and then refused to take the job you have to repay costs but i could be wrong:confused:

    You do. €85k


  • #238
    Wetbench4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Wetbench4


    Seosaimh77 wrote: »
    Congrats. That's deadly. The more I thought about the FEAST the more I thought I had screwed it up. So pretty shocked to get an interview.

    Already been on a search for Leaving Cert results. Cant find them. Apparently your old school keep a copy so get on to them if you can't find your copy. They'll send them straight out to you.

    I,m in the same boat as you, can't find my results anywhere. The schools are on their mid term this week though aren't they


  • #239
    Seosaimh77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭Seosaimh77


    d'oh, Didn't think of that. Ah I'm sure there will be office staff in. I hope so anyway!!


  • #240
    eoin95
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭eoin95


    Hey,

    in regards to the shift work and roster, I seen the post that detailed the 5 days on 3 off but I was just wondering what happens...

    when a bank holiday comes up, i know you won't get it off but do you get extra for working it even if it is just how your shift fell

    and

    On christmas day is there any atc services? i did a ppl ground school a few years back and the tutor said that on christmas day there isn't any airspace restrictions. Is this the case, do controllers have to work on christmas day? If so is it them all or just skeleton crew? Is it all airports and ballycasey?

    Cheers


  • Advertisement
  • #241
    rayz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭rayz


    Hey guys. First time looking at this thread. I have previously been looking solely at the other IAA related thread that appears more popular. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055981417&page=42

    But I must say, I've read some interesting things here. The darker side of the job...the hours!! I'd never even considered things like not being able to take casual leave unless you can swap etc. That seems rather harsh if you have somewhere v. important to be.
    Its eye opening stuff....I mean I'm into my final year of College now and the idea of dropping out so close to getting my degree was difficult enough. The only consolation was that this was a job I would be willing to bin the degree for!! To be honest, it hasn't changed my outlook on it but it is making me second-guess a little....and I've a feeling that the interviewers will show you the door if you dont show anything but 110% commitment!! :)

    Also, thanks to all the ACTO's for their thoughts. Its pretty cool to have you guys helping us out with all the info on the job as we go through this process. Especially since for most, this will be quite a big risk!!

    I've my interview on the 10th....here's hoping the interviewers havent gotten sick of the sight of us by then!!:rolleyes: Best of luck to all doing em.


Advertisement