2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

ELFOYZER · 20-09-2010 11:10AM

ecoli wrote: »

Sorry i couldnt get you under the mark but given circumstances two PB s is a great result fair play you are well on track. back to hard slog this week as we hitting the final straight of the hard training now hopefully will give you the extra lift you need to get you over the line

Jeez, no need to apologise e-coli!
The fate of my race lay totally in my hands and I gave it a good lash and thanks to you I managed my PB's and PMP run - that's savage.
No point in beating myself up over 47 seconds now, just have to focus on the next few weeks. I'm gonna apply myself between now and Marathon day - let's see what happens.

kaymin · 20-09-2010 10:17PM

Week 13 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|2|20|531
smmoore79| 3.10||| 143
Speedy44|3:26| | | 214|
kaymin|n/a|3|30|586
ELFOYZER|3.29|4|30|564
cunavalos|n/a|||120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|||236|

Summary for week:

Monday Rest
Tuesday 10.7 miles
Wednesday 11 miles
Thursday 8 miles
Friday Rest
Saturday - 2 hour kayak
Sunday 12k kayak hard

Another poor week. Felt really laboured on my runs - heart beat is quite a bit higher for the same pace than say 3 weeks ago.

Ran 12.6 miles this evening - physio reckons I should be good to run but will suffer some pain. Tendon could take 12 - 14 weeks to heal properly so it's damage limitation til marathon day. If I can do a solid weeks training this week and be still standing by the end of it it'll give me the confidence that I can go the whole way. Plan is to follow the programme again from Friday.

ELFOYZER · 21-09-2010 02:47PM

kaymin wrote: »

physio reckons I should be good to run but will suffer some pain. Tendon could take 12 - 14 weeks to heal properly so it's damage limitation til marathon day. If I can do a solid weeks training this week and be still standing by the end of it it'll give me the confidence that I can go the whole way. Plan is to follow the programme again from Friday.

Sorry to hear that it will take that long to fully heal. You were absolutely flying up to the injury.
At least you are now fully aware of the damage and will be more conscious of when to pull back in training in favour of the big day.
I'm no expert, but I still think you have a reasonable shot at the sub 3.
Your running has been well above par and the conditioning you have from the kayaking obviously compliments your running ability.

Keep the faith ...

kaymin · 21-09-2010 09:03PM

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Sorry to hear that it will take that long to fully heal. You were absolutely flying up to the injury.
At least you are now fully aware of the damage and will be more conscious of when to pull back in training in favour of the big day.
I'm no expert, but I still think you have a reasonable shot at the sub 3.
Your running has been well above par and the conditioning you have from the kayaking obviously compliments your running ability.

Keep the faith ...

Thanks. Was limping most of today after yesterdays run. Not good at all. More physio sessions over the next few days. Getting desperate now. Worst comes to the worst I'll kayak for the next 5 weeks and hope for the best on marathon day!

donothoponpop · 26-09-2010 11:25AM

Week 14 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|6|62|593
kaymin|n/a|||586
ELFOYZER|3.29|||564

Summary for week:

Monday 6 easy
Tuesday 8 steady
Wednesday 12 easy
Thursday Rest
Friday 10 easy, incl. 4x3min hard uphill
Saturday 8 @ 6:37 av
Sunday 18 LSR, 6 @ 8:08av, 6 @ 7:44 av, 6 @ 7:17 av

A good week. The desire to get our the door is waning a bit, but I haven't caved in yet (and I won't either, at this late stage!). Saturday's run was a goodie, a fair bit faster than MP. Sunday, I felt strong throughout the run, and could have gone on. One more hard push for this week, and the taper is just around the corner!

ecoli · 26-09-2010 11:26AM

Right lads well done to getting this far we are in the home straight now. This is the last week before the mileage starts to easy off into the taper. This is a big week and the focus should be towards the two sessions as these are two big ones

||
Monday|Rest
Tuesday|8 miles easy
Wednesday|2ml w/u 3x3m HMP w/ 3-4 min rec, 2ml c/d
Thursday|5 miles easy
Friday|8 miles easy
Saturday|4 miles recovery
Sunday|5,4,3,2,1 @ MP w/ 2-3 min jog rec

Best of luck with it and anyone with any questions you know where i am

donothoponpop · 26-09-2010 11:32AM

ecoli wrote: »

Best of luck with it and anyone with any questions you know where i am

This isn't a criticism in any way- I'm more than happy with how things have progressed under your training schedule- but I would have expected more LSR's (20-22 miles) in the program. Is it that the MP elements of the Sunday long runs are equivalent to LSR's, or is there another reason?

ecoli · 26-09-2010 11:42AM

donothoponpop wrote: »

This isn't a criticism in any way- I'm more than happy with how things have progressed under your training schedule- but I would have expected more LSR's (20-22 miles) in the program. Is it that the MP elements of the Sunday long runs are equivalent to LSR's, or is there another reason?

Personally i feel that since glycogen depletion usually occurs around the 18-20 mile mark that is the point where going further would do more harm than good physically so i tried to top out at 20 mile runs and alternate them with the MP miles.The fact of adrenaline and your taper should compensate for the other mileage. If you look at the plan though you have 6 LSR s between 17-20 miles so you do have the strength. I could have added more but i think that the only benefit would be a mental one and i dont think that compromising the other days training.

Hope that gives you insight into where i was coming from and hopefully it pays off though i dont think you guys will have any problems regarding strength

donothoponpop · 26-09-2010 11:53AM

ecoli wrote: »

Personally i feel that since glycogen depletion usually occurs around the 18-20 mile mark that is the point where going further would do more harm than good physically so i tried to top out at 20 mile runs and alternate them with the MP miles.The fact of adrenaline and your taper should compensate for the other mileage. If you look at the plan though you have 6 LSR s between 17-20 miles so you do have the strength. I could have added more but i think that the only benefit would be a mental one and i dont think that compromising the other days training.

Hope that gives you insight into where i was coming from and hopefully it pays off though i dont think you guys will have any problems regarding strength

That makes a lot of sense. Previously I had gained (false) confidence from doing 21, 22mile LSR's, but had been wrecked for a few days after, and missed sessions. That's not happened this time around, and as you say, the program has 6 LSR's anyway. I'm also feeling stronger, and more confident, than I have before.

Although this is the stage where I'm starting to doubt everything, happens every time a month out from a marathon;) Cheers, looking forward to pushing it this week.

ecoli · 26-09-2010 12:12PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

Although this is the stage where I'm starting to doubt everything, happens every time a month out from a marathon;) Cheers, looking forward to pushing it this week.

I was going to hold off on this until the week coming up to the marathon but might be a bit more appropriate to throw it up now

Training plan stats:|
Mileage to date:|700+
Mileage by the end of the plan:|900+
Miles at MP:|88
Miles quicker than MP:|63
Time spent doing hill reps:|50 min

You have the work put in lads so dont forget it

ELFOYZER · 26-09-2010 01:01PM

Week 14 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|6|62|593
kaymin|n/a|||586
ELFOYZER|3.29|6|65|629

Summary for week:

Monday REST
Tuesday 9 steady
Wednesday 8(Hill session on treadmill*)
Thursday 13 easy (on the half marathon course)
Friday 7 PMP, 6:56, 6:46, 6:53, 6:56, 6:55, 6:55, 6:47
Saturday 6 easy
Sunday 22 LSR, easy (~8:15/mile pace) picked up the DCM course from Park with friends and ran along it to Westmoreland Street and up along quays to park. Ran last 2 miles at 7min pace.

*Heavy rain and thunder forced me indoors to gym to do hill session on treadmill. Ran 3 miles steady, then ran a 18 min hill program with 7.0% gradient at 7min mile pace - really tough session and pushed hard into it, ran 2 mile easy cooldown.

Had a great week of training and what was my highest mileage week ever! When I finished beating myself up over not going sub 1:30 in the half, I eventually got my sh*t together and got my head down. Feel great now and ready to give it everything in the next week.

ELFOYZER · 26-09-2010 01:08PM

ecoli wrote: »

If you look at the plan though you have 6 LSR s between 17-20 miles so you do have the strength.

Today's run of 22 miles more than proved that to me. Last year I was limping for a day or two after this run. Right now, I could actually go out and knock out another run if I had to. Clonskeagh and Roebuck looked like speed bumps - could have sprinted up them:D

ecoli wrote: »

I could have added more but i think that the only benefit would be a mental one and i dont think that compromising the other days training.

Totally right, but for me I like to run some if not most of the DCM route nearer the race - it helps me visualise the day itself. Great mental prep.

kaymin · 26-09-2010 04:28PM

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Week 14 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|6|62|593
kaymin|n/a|5|50|586
ELFOYZER|3.29|6|65|629

Summary for week:

Monday 12.6 miles easy

Tuesday 8 down to 1 kayak session

Wednesday Rest - physio

Thursday 12 miles - (3 miles easy, 3 miles on) x2 - 6:39mins per mile average

Friday Rest

Saturday 20 miles easy - 6:56mins per mile average

Sunday 5 miles recovery

A good week for me finally. The physio I went to on Wednesday gave me new stretches to do which have had a positive effect on my injury. My legs are really inflexible and this is what has caused my injury. While I stretch after runs I wasn't stretching my IT band.

Thursday's session was the first decent session in 3 / 4 weeks. Heart rate for the long run on Saturday shot up to 170 average for mile 1 and stayed there for the entire 20 miles. My heart rate is relatively high at the best of times but it shouldn't be this high for one 7 min mile! I put it down to tiredness / overtraining. Back to the programme from now on. Not liking the look of Wednesday's session!

donothoponpop · 26-09-2010 04:40PM

That's some way to come back from injury! Nice pace for 20, that's got to give you confidence for the big day.

I'm also looking on Wednesday's session with a mix of dread and anticipation... bring it on!:D

ecoli · 26-09-2010 06:30PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

I'm also looking on Wednesday's session with a mix of dread and anticipation... bring it on!:D

No need to be i mean only last week you did 13.1 @ HMP without any break

As for you Kaymin err on the side of caution this week i know you want to make up for lost time but it better to get through them safe and sound a bit slower than have super sessions and taking a step back after with recurring of the injuries

ELFOYZER · 26-09-2010 07:16PM

kaymin wrote: »

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Week 14 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|6|62|593
kaymin|n/a|5|50|586
ELFOYZER|3.29|6|65|629

Summary for week:

Monday 12.6 miles easy

Tuesday 8 down to 1 kayak session

Wednesday Rest - physio

Thursday 12 miles - (3 miles easy, 3 miles on) x2 - 6:39mins per mile average

Friday Rest

Saturday 20 miles easy - 6:56mins per mile average

Sunday 5 miles recovery

A good week for me finally. The physio I went to on Wednesday gave me new stretches to do which have had a positive effect on my injury. My legs are really inflexible and this is what has caused my injury. While I stretch after runs I wasn't stretching my IT band.

Thursday's session was the first decent session in 3 / 4 weeks. Heart rate for the long run on Saturday shot up to 170 average for mile 1 and stayed there for the entire 20 miles. My heart rate is relatively high at the best of times but it shouldn't be this high for one 7 min mile! I put it down to tiredness / overtraining. Back to the programme from now on. Not liking the look of Wednesday's session!

OMG, that's some return week to training. I'd take that weeks training anytime. Fair play Kaymin, that's awesome!
Hey, just thinking about it - maybe I should get injured too!!!!!!!

Cooldog · 26-09-2010 08:18PM

ecoli wrote: »

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments

Hi Ecoli sorry for arriving so late I only discovered this thread today.
I had planned on doing DCM this year after a PB of 3.08 last year but due to a bad 4 weeks where I only ran 30. 12. 40 and 30 miles,I have deicded to enter the Luton marathon on the 5th Dec instead.
Previous to that my average mileage for the 10 weeks before that was 55miles pw. My last 2 weeks training have been 45 and 50 miles with key workouts of 6 x 800 in 2.40-45, 5 mile tempo in 6.10 pace and a 2 hour long run 16.5 miles at 7m16s pace. Last week I also ran a 10k in 37m36s
As last year was only my second marathon I am alittle concerned that I have only 10 wks left to Luton.
Do you think that if i jumped in a what was week 8 of your prograamme that this would benefit me in any way?
Thank you very muck for your time, and the best of luck to you all, I would love to have been here sooner.

kaymin · 26-09-2010 09:02PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

That's some way to come back from injury! Nice pace for 20, that's got to give you confidence for the big day.

I'm also looking on Wednesday's session with a mix of dread and anticipation... bring it on!:D

ELFOYZER wrote: »

OMG, that's some return week to training. I'd take that weeks training anytime. Fair play Kaymin, that's awesome!
Hey, just thinking about it - maybe I should get injured too!!!!!!!

Thanks although I've been managing 30 miles running per week despite the injury so it's not like I've had a complete break. Seems like you've both made great progress over the last few weeks - I'm anxious just to get back to where I was. Sometimes I think I should be taking the long runs easier (based on the views of other posters on boards) but I'm also aware of the other school of thought i.e. that running for a long time at a slow pace only trains you to run slowly for a long time. Anyway I need to make my key sessions count given the last few weeks of dodgy training.

ecoli wrote: »

No need to be i mean only last week you did 13.1 @ HMP without any break

As for you Kaymin err on the side of caution this week i know you want to make up for lost time but it better to get through them safe and sound a bit slower than have super sessions and taking a step back after with recurring of the injuries

Agreed, I'm feeling optimistic about my leg. A rest day tomorrow, easy day on Tuesday and lots of stretches should set me right for a tough session Wednesday. Reading about the times others did in Berlin has made me more gung-ho than ever! But yeah, I'll be cautious!

Cooldog · 03-10-2010 09:49AM

Summary of week.

Mon = Rest
Tue = 4 x 2 Min Hills in 6.21 Pace Average
Wed = 10 miles in 7.07 Pace
Thur = 8 miles in 7.35 Pace
Fri = 3 x 2K in 6.14, 6.10, 6.09 Pace
Sat = 4 miles in 7.30 Pace
Sun = 16.70 miles (2 Hour Run) 7.13 Pace

Total 55 miles

Felt good on all runs, a little fast of some of them if I am to be honest, but a good start.

ecoli · 03-10-2010 10:11AM

Cooldog wrote: »

Summary of week.

Mon = Rest
Tue = 4 x 2 Min Hills in 6.21 Pace Average
Wed = 10 miles in 7.07 Pace
Thur = 8 miles in 7.35 Pace
Fri = 3 x 2K in 6.14, 6.10, 6.09 Pace
Sat = 4 miles in 7.30 Pace
Sun = 16.70 miles (2 Hour Run) 7.13 Pace

Total 55 miles

Felt good on all runs, a little fast of some of them if I am to be honest, but a good start.

Good start to your plan. the one thing i would note is as you said the pace remember hard days hard and easy days easy you have 10 solid weeks and its going to be tough as there is less time for down weeks so its gonna be quite taxing of the body

keep up the good work

sensei4 · 03-10-2010 10:25AM

Hi lads looking for a bit of advice I have been running for abour 20 months i ran a few BHAA races early in the year I also ran the Kildare half marathon I have done a 6 and 10 mile race also the frank duffy in the park I have been using the Hal Hidgon Novice 2 and was at week 15 when I hurt my knee and have not run for 10 days went to a friend who is an oeteopath and he said he could find nothing serious and that a scan would show a lot more had that today and am awaiting results some friends say I have most of the hard work and should still be able to do my first marathon. I am planning to try a run at the end of the week if the scan is clear. Whats your view on me being able to do the marathon was never hoping for a fast time 4.30 would be happy I am in my 50s but as you see new to running

ecoli · 03-10-2010 10:33AM

sensei4 wrote: »

Hi lads looking for a bit of advice I have been running for abour 20 months i ran a few BHAA races early in the year I also ran the Kildare half marathon I have done a 6 and 10 mile race also the frank duffy in the park I have been using the Hal Hidgon Novice 2 and was at week 15 when I hurt my knee and have not run for 10 days went to a friend who is an oeteopath and he said he could find nothing serious and that a scan would show a lot more had that today and am awaiting results some friends say I have most of the hard work and should still be able to do my first marathon. I am planning to try a run at the end of the week if the scan is clear. Whats your view on me being able to do the marathon was never hoping for a fast time 4.30 would be happy I am in my 50s but as you see new to running

If your goal was to finish a maraton depending on the scan result i would say stay the course. If you are worried about your fitness try other forms of cross training. Cycling, aqua running and the elliptical machine are the best forms of cross training for runners but run it by your osteopath / physio to find out which of these will be best suitable with your injury.
At this stage of your plan i wouldnt worry too much as you should be coming into your taper next week or the week after as such as rightly pointed out most of your work has been done. I actually tore my calf coming into my taper for a half earlier in the year i saw physio replaced my runs with cycles and swims and by the time the race came i was still in top shape so hopefully you can draw a bit of comfort from that
Best of luck with your scan

Cooldog · 03-10-2010 04:41PM

ecoli wrote: »

Good start to your plan. the one thing i would note is as you said the pace remember hard days hard and easy days easy you have 10 solid weeks and its going to be tough as there is less time for down weeks so its gonna be quite taxing of the body

keep up the good work

Any advice on what pace I should be doing specific sessions at? Thanks.

ecoli · 03-10-2010 04:57PM

Cooldog wrote: »

Any advice on what pace I should be doing specific sessions at? Thanks.

I dont like to give exact figures but here is one of the earlier post's i gave regarding this

ecoli wrote: »

Regarding paces. I dont like giving exact figures for this my main advice would be to use common sense. here are some rough guidelines but not to be taken as gospel

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP

Again use the old noggin here most of you are experienced enough to know what kinda paces to be hitting

Hope this helps a bit the main thing is use your head there is no point going into your sessions too tired from your easy runs, at the same time you want to get the right benefits aerobically

Cooldog · 03-10-2010 05:14PM

ecoli wrote: »

I dont like to give exact figures but here is one of the earlier post's i gave regarding this

Hope this helps a bit the main thing is use your head there is no point going into your sessions too tired from your easy runs, at the same time you want to get the right benefits aerobically

Thanks Ecoli, I know in the programme what my easy and recovery runs are, what runs are my steady runs?

ecoli · 03-10-2010 05:16PM

Hey DCM lads

How you get on this week? also will be very interested to see how you got on with this LSR session as it was the toughest one (and last hard one like that you will be happy to know) from here on in the mileage will be getting shorter and i will be cutting out the sessions (thou one more next week) so far play lads the hard work is done and you have got there now all need is to get through the taper without cracking up:p

Anyway here is next week hope it looks alot nicer than the last while

Monday|Rest
Tuesday|8 x 800 (@ 5k pace + 4 secs)
Wednesday| 10 mile easy
Thursday| 4 miles recovery
Friday|8 miles easy + 4 x 100m strides @ 5k pace
Saturday| 6 miles easy
Sunday|15 miles easy

ecoli · 03-10-2010 05:22PM

Cooldog wrote: »

Thanks Ecoli, I know in the programme what my easy and recovery runs are, what runs are my steady runs?

Sorry there arent any steady runs in your plan these were more so in the build up phase for the other lads

Cooldog · 03-10-2010 06:54PM

ecoli wrote: »

Sorry there arent any steady runs in your plan these were more so in the build up phase for the other lads

Thanks Ecoli. I will definitely stick to the correct paces from now on, I know the effects of running too fast on easy or recovery days, these days are as important if not more important than the hard days.

ELFOYZER · 03-10-2010 08:55PM

Week 15 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||593
kaymin|n/a|||586
ELFOYZER|3.29|4|45|674

Summary for week:

Monday REST

Tuesday 8 mile easy ( 8:05/mile)

Wednesday Rest (working late - real messy day!)

Thursday 1.5 miles easy(8:10/mile); 3x3 miles MP with 2 min walk rec; 1.5 miles easy (8:15/mile)
1st 3 miler = 6:53/mile avg; 2nd 3 miler = 7:04/mile avg; 3rd 3 miler= 7:10/mile avg

Friday 10 mile easy ( 8:30/mile ... maybe a bit too easy!)

Saturday REST

Sunday 5,4,3,2,1 session - THE BIG ONE!
(well actually, 3 x 5 mile MP)
At the last minute I decided to slightly alter this session. I don't know why, perhaps it was the 5 mile loop in the park and the fact that I felt so strong that made me decide to go this way. Not sure what I lost/gained by runing the session this way, last loop was tough, really tough.
1st 5 miler = 6:53/mile avg, 2 min walk
2nd 5 miler = 7:05/mile avg, 2 min walk
3rd 5 miler = 7:06/mile avg - (Collapse!!!)

Good confidence builder on the MP running, although I'm a bit off the sub 3 pace.
I am resigned to the fact that I will not break 3 hour in DCM, and that's alright - in fact, a bit of a relief that I can admit that to myself.
However, I'm gonna push as hard as I can towards the 3 hour mark and am really looking forward to race day.

Will have to think about and consider race strategy. I'm gonna be inbetween the 3:00 and 3:15 pace group - no man's land, just me, my garmin, my pace band, oh, and about 11,000 other marathon nutters!

Speedy44 · 03-10-2010 09:13PM

1st 5 miler = 6:53/mile avg, 2 min walk
2nd 5 miler = 7:05/mile avg, 2 min walk
3rd 5 miler = 6:06/mile avg - (Collapse!!!)

I am resigned to the fact that I will not break 3 hour in DCM,

After a session like that, I'm not sure why you think you will not break the 3hrs? To be able to do 5mls at 6:06 pace after doing 10mls at mp is great going, and points to some serious endurance