cold barrel and warm barrel

Martinobrien · 12-09-2010 12:57PM #1

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,

Martin

tfox · 12-09-2010 01:19PM

Is inded true, I know with my 6.5 and .223 that if i put rounds through them fairly rapid when punching holes in paper that it starts get hot fairly quick and with that the grouping starts to widen.

Martinobrien · 12-09-2010 01:33PM

yes i agree,i watched a friend of mine put about 10 shots through his .223 last year,and the first 3 shots were fairly close to one another but the rest of them were well spread out on the target,he told me the .223 was,nt meant to be shot every second,and on a nights out lamping when you see what ever you were out for you shot it,and it was one shot one kill,

johngalway · 12-09-2010 02:16PM

More importantly, you can cause permanent damage to your barrel if you fire rapidly and get it hot. Best to be sensible with it and it'll last longer. When I'm zeroing I leave 2-3 minutes between each shot in a five shot group and 10 minutes between groups. Not saying that's the best way in the world, it's just what I do.

poulo6.5 · 12-09-2010 02:35PM

Martinobrien wrote: »

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,

Martin

very true but a few tings come into play,
first of all is your barrel, is it light hunting barrel or a heavy target or varmint barrel.
how fast is fast, if you are banging off rounds for the hell of it then it wont matter. if you are shooting for a group then you will be studying your shots and taking your time between shots, in which case your barrel should be able to shoot 3-5 shot groups without to much trouble. but then again this depends on your barrel, as above

if you want the best option for shooting a group then you should clean your barrel compleatly.
set your self up at your chosen range.
fire at least 2 fowling rounds. and allow a few min for your barrel to cool down again.
get into a comfortable shooting position, and get your cheek weld sorted.
hold the rifle firmly down and in to your rest,
fire and hold your position (follow threw) and watch your impact and study your shot.
without moving your cheek weld and without moving any more than you have to to get back on target, reload and shoot again,
take your time and study your shots. and always aim at the same point regardless of your impact as you are shooting for a group. you can adjust your scope afterwards if you are off from where you are aiming
3 shot should give you a good idea of your grouping but 5 is better
you should repeat this with several different types and weights of bullets as each rifle is different and one type/weight will suit your rifle better than the others and that will be the round you will have the most success with

there are other lads on here that will be able to explain their process as it may vary shooter to shooter.
which ever is most comfortable and works for you is the best for you.

happy hunting

Martinobrien · 12-09-2010 02:52PM

poulo6.5 wrote: »

very true but a few tings come into play,
first of all is your barrel, is it light hunting barrel or a heavy target or varmint barrel.
how fast is fast, if you are banging off rounds for the hell of it then it wont matter. if you are shooting for a group then you will be studying your shots and taking your time between shots, in which case your barrel should be able to shoot 3-5 shot groups without to much trouble. but then again this depends on your barrel, as above

if you want the best option for shooting a group then you should clean your barrel compleatly.
set your self up at your chosen range.
fire at least 2 fowling rounds. and allow a few min for your barrel to cool down again.
get into a comfortable shooting position, and get your cheek weld sorted.
hold the rifle firmly down and in to your rest,
fire and hold your position (follow threw) and watch your impact and study your shot.
without moving your cheek weld and without moving any more than you have to to get back on target, reload and shoot again,
take your time and study your shots. and always aim at the same point regardless of your impact as you are shooting for a group. you can adjust your scope afterwards if you are off from where you are aiming
3 shot should give you a good idea of your grouping but 5 is better
you should repeat this with several different types and weights of bullets as each rifle is different and one type/weight will suit your rifle better than the others and that will be the round you will have the most success with

there are other lads on here that will be able to explain their process as it may vary shooter to shooter.
which ever is most comfortable and works for you is the best for you.

happy hunting

Thanks Paulo for the reply,
now my scope mounts should arrive here to me by tuesday so i will be off to target it in,i have a good selection of bullets,[federal hornady and american eagle]ranging from 40g to 55g,i believe with the .223 you allow 1inch over at 100 yards to make it dead on at 200 yards,i have been told by different people that you can also target it in at 50 yards and keep it 1/2 inch over the point of aim,so when i am targeting in my rifle i will have to make sure i dont get the barrel to hot,and take my time rather than rush it,.....is this true...

Martin.

poulo6.5 · 12-09-2010 03:07PM

Martinobrien wrote: »

Thanks Paulo for the reply,
now my scope mounts should arrive here to me by tuesday so i will be off to target it in,i have a good selection of bullets,[federal hornady and american eagle]ranging from 40g to 55g,i believe with the .223 you allow 1inch over at 100 yards to make it dead on at 200 yards,i have been told by different people that you can also target it in at 50 yards and keep it 1/2 inch over the point of aim,so when i am targeting in my rifle i will have to make sure i dont get the barrel to hot,and take my time rather than rush it,.....is this true...

Martin.

ya take your time is best,
most people find that about 1.5"high at 100 is bang on for 200 but you will have to confirm that for your self as every setup is slightly different.
ie barrel length. a 20" barrel will have a lower MV to a 26" barrel

Tackleberrywho · 12-09-2010 09:09PM

Martinobrien wrote: »

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,

Martin

The heavier barrels eel the affects of heat quicker than the skinny barrels.
The .223 in a very light barrel can cause the barrel to get quite hot.

My VSSF II has a heavy barrel with fluting and cools very quickly in comparison to my VTR .308 barrel which is roasting after 5 shots or so

kay 9 · 12-09-2010 09:22PM

johngalway wrote: »

More importantly, you can cause permanent damage to your barrel if you fire rapidly and get it hot. Best to be sensible with it and it'll last longer. When I'm zeroing I leave 2-3 minutes between each shot in a five shot group and 10 minutes between groups. Not saying that's the best way in the world, it's just what I do.

I do the same thing, seems to work for me, although it is still a little warm but the real heat has dispersed before anymore shots:)

Cass · 12-09-2010 10:25PM

A heavey profile barrel will not heat up or more to the point show the effects of heating as quickly as a thin profile barrel. This is simply down to the thickness of the barrel. The heat from the bore must travel through more barrel/metal before reaching the outside of the barrel when compared to a thin profile barrel. Also a heavy profiled barrel has a larger surface area which (IMO) aids in the dispersion of heat.

To put it to a real life comparison. The Savage and the Sauer. One a .308 heavy barrel, the other a light barrel 30-06. Set up a target at 100yds. I can fire 10+ shots with the Savage in 5 minutes with little, if any, mirage from the heat of the barrel. Also my POI does not change. The Sauer on the other hand cannot fire more than 3 shots in the same time frame. If i continue to shoot up to 5, 7 even the 10 shots i find the POI moving slowly and gradually upward and to the right. Also mirage, even at lower magnification, becomes so much of a problem that my POA is moving and cannot be trusted to be my "actual" POA.

As the lads have said controlled shooting is the key. Time your shots. Try over and over and you'll find the "sweet" spot (time wise) as to how often your rifle can fire one shot after the other.

Also a small tip/hint. When you fire a shot, and after your follow through has you back on target immediately open the bolt and eject the shell. Too many lads fire then look for a while through the scope and think about the shot while the bolt is still closed, hence the barrel is "closed off", so to speak. Opening the bolt immediately after a shot allows the air to run through the chamber/breech and down the barrel aiding in the cooling of the barrel.

If you can fire a couple of fouling shots to heat the barrel and "dirty" it up. Then time your shots (after the second fouling) so that each shot has as close to the same conditions as the previous one. You should find your groups tightening a little and assuming your hold, etc is the same you will get more predictable and consistant results.

Anyways just a few thoughts. You may find some or none of them helpful.

Tackleberrywho · 12-09-2010 10:36PM

I even find working the bolt a few times can help as it forces air through the barrel which act as a heat exchanger.

If I work the bolt a couple of times after a shot a plume of hot gases residues comes out in the form of a white "poof" effect

A mate of mine had a skinny .243 and after 3-4 shots the groups were shi*te

However as a stalking rifle it was a dream to carry.

If you want a rifle to shoot foxes or deer you will only max fire of 3 shots so a skinny barrel that heats up is no big deal.

If you want to just put rounds down range a heavy barrel is your only man for heat dissipation

rrpc · 12-09-2010 10:58PM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I even find working the bolt a few times can help as it forces air through the barrel which act as a heat exchanger.

If I work the bolt a couple of times after a shot a plume of hot gases residues comes out in the form of a white "poof" effect

Because with the bolt closed, the heat builds up; only having one end of the barel to escape. There'd be SFA 'pump' effect from a bolt that has a whole open breech to pass through :rolleyes:

Leaving the bolt open would be the best option.

Tackleberrywho · 12-09-2010 11:19PM

rrpc wrote: »

Because with the bolt closed, the heat builds up; only having one end of the barel to escape. There'd be SFA 'pump' effect from a bolt that has a whole open breech to pass through :rolleyes:

Leaving the bolt open would be the best option.

working the bolt circulates the air, as I said, i only work it once or twice.(it's no a science, just what I have found by experimentation that works)

It's been working many years now, and I don't leave long intervals between shots on a nice summers evening when Bunnies want to play tag.

heat Not a big deal on any of your rifles as you only shoot small bore;)

sikastag · 12-09-2010 11:37PM

If your using a mod and rattling of a few rounds might be worth paying attention to the heat that can build up in the mod. I find the model I use heats up quite quickly. Usually removing it "between groups" aids the cooling process.

Tackleberrywho · 12-09-2010 11:41PM

sikastag wrote: »

If your using a mod and rattling of a few rounds might be worth paying attention to the heat that can build up in the mod. I find the model I use heats up quite quickly. Usually removing it "between groups" aids the cooling process.

+1
The Mod gets very hot! handle with care

jwshooter · 12-09-2010 11:59PM

i know my rifle can shoot ,i know i can shoot , so i dont bother shoothing groups its point less .

we shoot some long range vermin and field targets to learn , my mother will shoot a group of a bench .

a few bottles of water will cool the barrel , also with the over barrel type mods take them off ,a ice pack will work well .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

Cass · 13-09-2010 12:22AM

jwshooter wrote: »

................so i dont bother shooting groups its point less .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

I don't get it. Do you or don't you shoot groups?

Are you saying you don't shoot groups with a rifle/ammo you are very familiar with?

I use grouping through the hunting/vermin rifles only when i'm changing ammo to see, not how tight i can get the group, but rather how well or poor the ammo works. So for that reason grouping is important, regardless where you do it.

jwshooter · 13-09-2010 12:32AM

ezridax wrote: »

I don't get it. Do you or don't you shoot groups?

Are you saying you don't shoot groups with a rifle/ammo you are very familiar with?

I use grouping through the hunting/vermin rifles only when i'm changing ammo to see, not how tight i can get the group, but rather how well or poor the ammo works. So for that reason grouping is important, regardless where you do it.

once you have establish you have a accurate hunting rifle and your ammo is compatible and grouping well , whats the point of banging away off a bench style rest .unless your going to carry it to the field

Martinobrien · 13-09-2010 02:34AM

ezridax wrote: »

A heavey profile barrel will not heat up or more to the point show the effects of heating as quickly as a thin profile barrel. This is simply down to the thickness of the barrel. The heat from the bore must travel through more barrel/metal before reaching the outside of the barrel when compared to a thin profile barrel. Also a heavy profiled barrel has a larger surface area which (IMO) aids in the dispersion of heat.

To put it to a real life comparison. The Savage and the Sauer. One a .308 heavy barrel, the other a light barrel 30-06. Set up a target at 100yds. I can fire 10+ shots with the Savage in 5 minutes with little, if any, mirage from the heat of the barrel. Also my POI does not change. The Sauer on the other hand cannot fire more than 3 shots in the same time frame. If i continue to shoot up to 5, 7 even the 10 shots i find the POI moving slowly and gradually upward and to the right. Also mirage, even at lower magnification, becomes so much of a problem that my POA is moving and cannot be trusted to be my "actual" POA.

As the lads have said controlled shooting is the key. Time your shots. Try over and over and you'll find the "sweet" spot (time wise) as to how often your rifle can fire one shot after the other.

Also a small tip/hint. When you fire a shot, and after your follow through has you back on target immediately open the bolt and eject the shell. Too many lads fire then look for a while through the scope and think about the shot while the bolt is still closed, hence the barrel is "closed off", so to speak. Opening the bolt immediately after a shot allows the air to run through the chamber/breech and down the barrel aiding in the cooling of the barrel.

If you can fire a couple of fouling shots to heat the barrel and "dirty" it up. Then time your shots (after the second fouling) so that each shot has as close to the same conditions as the previous one. You should find your groups tightening a little and assuming your hold, etc is the same you will get more predictable and consistant results.

Anyways just a few thoughts. You may find some or none of them helpful.

thanks for the advice,i will take it on board,.....you learn something new every day and i am still learning but i am getting there slowly but surely.so thanks lads for all the reply,s..

Martin.

rrpc · 13-09-2010 07:45AM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

working the bolt circulates the air, as I said, i only work it once or twice.(it's no a science, just what I have found by experimentation that works)

It's been working many years now, and I don't leave long intervals between shots on a nice summers evening when Bunnies want to play tag.

heat Not a big deal on any of your rifles as you only shoot small bore;)

You'd get as much air 'circulating' if you blew into the breech

.

If you really think the bolt acts as some kind of pump, put your finger at the end of the barrel and 'pump' the bolt. You wouldn't get a gnat's fart out the end. :rolleyes:

sikastag · 13-09-2010 09:23AM

jwshooter wrote: »

i know my rifle can shoot ,i know i can shoot , so i dont bother shoothing groups its point less .

we shoot some long range vermin and field targets to learn , my mother will shoot a group of a bench .

a few bottles of water will cool the barrel , also with the over barrel type mods take them off ,a ice pack will work well .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

OP did specifically mention targetting but I agree, for hunting I shoot 3 shot group to verify my rifle shoots the same as always before season opens.

Vegeta · 13-09-2010 09:45AM

Anyone ever go to extremes and put a thermometer on the barrel

I have a fairly decent multimeter which comes with temperature probe and the odd time I have been tempted to stick it to the barrel and record the temperature increase over a shot string.

Haven't bother bringing it out in the muck and dirt though. Maybe next time

johngalway · 13-09-2010 09:49AM

Just remember to remove it before the next shot Veg

Vegeta · 13-09-2010 09:55AM

johngalway wrote: »

Just remember to remove it before the next shot Veg

ha ha

I had two ideas in mind, take spot readings between shots at chamber end (giving adequate time for heat soak), or tape the probe to the exterior of the barrel

Sparks · 13-09-2010 10:27AM

jwshooter wrote: »

once you have establish you have a accurate hunting rifle and your ammo is compatible and grouping well , whats the point of banging away off a bench style rest

Checking that your hunting rifle is still accurate; checking a new batch of ammo; checking to make sure that you are still accurate and can read wind (rather than getting off a lucky shot or two in still conditions and then declaring that it's all sorted and going out and wounding an animal instead of killing it because you couldn't adjust for wind properly, not having practised it on a range).
There are other reasons, but those are the first three that come to mind.

sikastag · 13-09-2010 11:08AM

Sparks wrote: »

Checking that your hunting rifle is still accurate; checking a new batch of ammo; checking to make sure that you are still accurate and can read wind (rather than getting off a lucky shot or two in still conditions and then declaring that it's all sorted and going out and wounding an animal instead of killing it because you couldn't adjust for wind properly, not having practised it on a range).
There are other reasons, but those are the first three that come to mind.

Shouldnt even point a firearm at an animal if you cant do the basics. But, once an experienced shot with an intimate knowledge of your firearm, your ammo, your abilities and limitations, a three shot group to check everything is as it should be normally does the trick provided there are no parameters changed ammo batch, etc.

Sparks · 13-09-2010 11:14AM

The catch is "provided nothing changes" sika, but apart from that, I agree; but even if your rifle bore never erodes, and you never develop some sort of hardware fault; not shooting regularly means that your skills decay and time on the range is the only real cure.

sikastag · 13-09-2010 11:18AM

Certainly sparks. Practice never did my shooting any harm yet nor anyone I know either.

jwshooter · 13-09-2010 12:40PM

i dont shoot targets other that to check a rifle . i have been doing a lot with my .22 in the last month again in field condition .

on the range the wind over the course of a session it will not change alot . on the hill over the day you can have it from any angle .

thats why i shoot long range vermin and field targets more so that paper on a range .

dCorbus · 13-09-2010 01:29PM

on the range the wind over the course of a session it will not change alot

Eh?

Coulda fooled me!

Sparks · 13-09-2010 01:35PM

dCorbus wrote: »

Coulda fooled me!

And me. And quite a lot of other range users I think!

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cold barrel and warm barrel

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