cold barrel and warm barrel

Martinobrien

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,


Martin

tfox

Is inded true, I know with my 6.5 and .223 that if i put rounds through them fairly rapid when punching holes in paper that it starts get hot fairly quick and with that the grouping starts to widen.

Martinobrien

yes i agree,i watched a friend of mine put about 10 shots through his .223 last year,and the first 3 shots were fairly close to one another but the rest of them were well spread out on the target,he told me the .223 was,nt meant to be shot every second,and on a nights out lamping when you see what ever you were out for you shot it,and it was one shot one kill,

johngalway

More importantly, you can cause permanent damage to your barrel if you fire rapidly and get it hot. Best to be sensible with it and it'll last longer. When I'm zeroing I leave 2-3 minutes between each shot in a five shot group and 10 minutes between groups. Not saying that's the best way in the world, it's just what I do.

poulo6.5

Martinobrien wrote: »

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,


Martin

very true but a few tings come into play,
first of all is your barrel, is it light hunting barrel or a heavy target or varmint barrel.
how fast is fast, if you are banging off rounds for the hell of it then it wont matter. if you are shooting for a group then you will be studying your shots and taking your time between shots, in which case your barrel should be able to shoot 3-5 shot groups without to much trouble. but then again this depends on your barrel, as above

if you want the best option for shooting a group then you should clean your barrel compleatly.
set your self up at your chosen range.
fire at least 2 fowling rounds. and allow a few min for your barrel to cool down again.
get into a comfortable shooting position, and get your cheek weld sorted.
hold the rifle firmly down and in to your rest,
fire and hold your position (follow threw) and watch your impact and study your shot.
without moving your cheek weld and without moving any more than you have to to get back on target, reload and shoot again,
take your time and study your shots. and always aim at the same point regardless of your impact as you are shooting for a group. you can adjust your scope afterwards if you are off from where you are aiming
3 shot should give you a good idea of your grouping but 5 is better
you should repeat this with several different types and weights of bullets as each rifle is different and one type/weight will suit your rifle better than the others and that will be the round you will have the most success with

there are other lads on here that will be able to explain their process as it may vary shooter to shooter.
which ever is most comfortable and works for you is the best for you.

happy hunting

Martinobrien

poulo6.5 wrote: »

very true but a few tings come into play,
first of all is your barrel, is it light hunting barrel or a heavy target or varmint barrel.
how fast is fast, if you are banging off rounds for the hell of it then it wont matter. if you are shooting for a group then you will be studying your shots and taking your time between shots, in which case your barrel should be able to shoot 3-5 shot groups without to much trouble. but then again this depends on your barrel, as above

if you want the best option for shooting a group then you should clean your barrel compleatly.
set your self up at your chosen range.
fire at least 2 fowling rounds. and allow a few min for your barrel to cool down again.
get into a comfortable shooting position, and get your cheek weld sorted.
hold the rifle firmly down and in to your rest,
fire and hold your position (follow threw) and watch your impact and study your shot.
without moving your cheek weld and without moving any more than you have to to get back on target, reload and shoot again,
take your time and study your shots. and always aim at the same point regardless of your impact as you are shooting for a group. you can adjust your scope afterwards if you are off from where you are aiming
3 shot should give you a good idea of your grouping but 5 is better
you should repeat this with several different types and weights of bullets as each rifle is different and one type/weight will suit your rifle better than the others and that will be the round you will have the most success with

there are other lads on here that will be able to explain their process as it may vary shooter to shooter.
which ever is most comfortable and works for you is the best for you.

happy hunting

Thanks Paulo for the reply,
now my scope mounts should arrive here to me by tuesday so i will be off to target it in,i have a good selection of bullets,[federal hornady and american eagle]ranging from 40g to 55g,i believe with the .223 you allow 1inch over at 100 yards to make it dead on at 200 yards,i have been told by different people that you can also target it in at 50 yards and keep it 1/2 inch over the point of aim,so when i am targeting in my rifle i will have to make sure i dont get the barrel to hot,and take my time rather than rush it,.....is this true...

Martin.

poulo6.5

Martinobrien wrote: »

Thanks Paulo for the reply,
now my scope mounts should arrive here to me by tuesday so i will be off to target it in,i have a good selection of bullets,[federal hornady and american eagle]ranging from 40g to 55g,i believe with the .223 you allow 1inch over at 100 yards to make it dead on at 200 yards,i have been told by different people that you can also target it in at 50 yards and keep it 1/2 inch over the point of aim,so when i am targeting in my rifle i will have to make sure i dont get the barrel to hot,and take my time rather than rush it,.....is this true...

Martin.

ya take your time is best,
most people find that about 1.5"high at 100 is bang on for 200 but you will have to confirm that for your self as every setup is slightly different.
ie barrel length. a 20" barrel will have a lower MV to a 26" barrel

Tackleberrywho

Martinobrien wrote: »

Hi all,just a question,first,i have been told that when the rifle barrel heats up on a .223,the point of impact could vary a lot,and you could end up will very bad grouping,is this true,i know its not like a .22 where you could put maybe 50 to 100 bullets through a rifle on a day,s targeting,


Martin

The heavier barrels eel the affects of heat quicker than the skinny barrels.
The .223 in a very light barrel can cause the barrel to get quite hot.

My VSSF II has a heavy barrel with fluting and cools very quickly in comparison to my VTR .308 barrel which is roasting after 5 shots or so

kay 9

johngalway wrote: »

More importantly, you can cause permanent damage to your barrel if you fire rapidly and get it hot. Best to be sensible with it and it'll last longer. When I'm zeroing I leave 2-3 minutes between each shot in a five shot group and 10 minutes between groups. Not saying that's the best way in the world, it's just what I do.

I do the same thing, seems to work for me, although it is still a little warm but the real heat has dispersed before anymore shots:)

Cass

A heavey profile barrel will not heat up or more to the point show the effects of heating as quickly as a thin profile barrel. This is simply down to the thickness of the barrel. The heat from the bore must travel through more barrel/metal before reaching the outside of the barrel when compared to a thin profile barrel. Also a heavy profiled barrel has a larger surface area which (IMO) aids in the dispersion of heat.

To put it to a real life comparison. The Savage and the Sauer. One a .308 heavy barrel, the other a light barrel 30-06. Set up a target at 100yds. I can fire 10+ shots with the Savage in 5 minutes with little, if any, mirage from the heat of the barrel. Also my POI does not change. The Sauer on the other hand cannot fire more than 3 shots in the same time frame. If i continue to shoot up to 5, 7 even the 10 shots i find the POI moving slowly and gradually upward and to the right. Also mirage, even at lower magnification, becomes so much of a problem that my POA is moving and cannot be trusted to be my "actual" POA.

As the lads have said controlled shooting is the key. Time your shots. Try over and over and you'll find the "sweet" spot (time wise) as to how often your rifle can fire one shot after the other.

Also a small tip/hint. When you fire a shot, and after your follow through has you back on target immediately open the bolt and eject the shell. Too many lads fire then look for a while through the scope and think about the shot while the bolt is still closed, hence the barrel is "closed off", so to speak. Opening the bolt immediately after a shot allows the air to run through the chamber/breech and down the barrel aiding in the cooling of the barrel.

If you can fire a couple of fouling shots to heat the barrel and "dirty" it up. Then time your shots (after the second fouling) so that each shot has as close to the same conditions as the previous one. You should find your groups tightening a little and assuming your hold, etc is the same you will get more predictable and consistant results.

Anyways just a few thoughts. You may find some or none of them helpful.

Tackleberrywho

I even find working the bolt a few times can help as it forces air through the barrel which act as a heat exchanger.

If I work the bolt a couple of times after a shot a plume of hot gases residues comes out in the form of a white "poof" effect

A mate of mine had a skinny .243 and after 3-4 shots the groups were shi*te

However as a stalking rifle it was a dream to carry.

If you want a rifle to shoot foxes or deer you will only max fire of 3 shots so a skinny barrel that heats up is no big deal.

If you want to just put rounds down range a heavy barrel is your only man for heat dissipation

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I even find working the bolt a few times can help as it forces air through the barrel which act as a heat exchanger.

If I work the bolt a couple of times after a shot a plume of hot gases residues comes out in the form of a white "poof" effect

Because with the bolt closed, the heat builds up; only having one end of the barel to escape. There'd be SFA 'pump' effect from a bolt that has a whole open breech to pass through :rolleyes:

Leaving the bolt open would be the best option.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

Because with the bolt closed, the heat builds up; only having one end of the barel to escape. There'd be SFA 'pump' effect from a bolt that has a whole open breech to pass through :rolleyes:

Leaving the bolt open would be the best option.

working the bolt circulates the air, as I said, i only work it once or twice.(it's no a science, just what I have found by experimentation that works)

It's been working many years now, and I don't leave long intervals between shots on a nice summers evening when Bunnies want to play tag.

heat Not a big deal on any of your rifles as you only shoot small bore;)

sikastag

If your using a mod and rattling of a few rounds might be worth paying attention to the heat that can build up in the mod. I find the model I use heats up quite quickly. Usually removing it "between groups" aids the cooling process.

Tackleberrywho

sikastag wrote: »

If your using a mod and rattling of a few rounds might be worth paying attention to the heat that can build up in the mod. I find the model I use heats up quite quickly. Usually removing it "between groups" aids the cooling process.

+1
The Mod gets very hot! handle with care

jwshooter

i know my rifle can shoot ,i know i can shoot , so i dont bother shoothing groups its point less .

we shoot some long range vermin and field targets to learn , my mother will shoot a group of a bench .

a few bottles of water will cool the barrel , also with the over barrel type mods take them off ,a ice pack will work well .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

Cass

jwshooter wrote: »

................so i dont bother shooting groups its point less .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

I don't get it. Do you or don't you shoot groups?

Are you saying you don't shoot groups with a rifle/ammo you are very familiar with?

I use grouping through the hunting/vermin rifles only when i'm changing ammo to see, not how tight i can get the group, but rather how well or poor the ammo works. So for that reason grouping is important, regardless where you do it.

jwshooter

ezridax wrote: »

I don't get it. Do you or don't you shoot groups?

Are you saying you don't shoot groups with a rifle/ammo you are very familiar with?

I use grouping through the hunting/vermin rifles only when i'm changing ammo to see, not how tight i can get the group, but rather how well or poor the ammo works. So for that reason grouping is important, regardless where you do it.

once you have establish you have a accurate hunting rifle and your ammo is compatible and grouping well , whats the point of banging away off a bench style rest .unless your going to carry it to the field

Martinobrien

ezridax wrote: »

A heavey profile barrel will not heat up or more to the point show the effects of heating as quickly as a thin profile barrel. This is simply down to the thickness of the barrel. The heat from the bore must travel through more barrel/metal before reaching the outside of the barrel when compared to a thin profile barrel. Also a heavy profiled barrel has a larger surface area which (IMO) aids in the dispersion of heat.

To put it to a real life comparison. The Savage and the Sauer. One a .308 heavy barrel, the other a light barrel 30-06. Set up a target at 100yds. I can fire 10+ shots with the Savage in 5 minutes with little, if any, mirage from the heat of the barrel. Also my POI does not change. The Sauer on the other hand cannot fire more than 3 shots in the same time frame. If i continue to shoot up to 5, 7 even the 10 shots i find the POI moving slowly and gradually upward and to the right. Also mirage, even at lower magnification, becomes so much of a problem that my POA is moving and cannot be trusted to be my "actual" POA.

As the lads have said controlled shooting is the key. Time your shots. Try over and over and you'll find the "sweet" spot (time wise) as to how often your rifle can fire one shot after the other.

Also a small tip/hint. When you fire a shot, and after your follow through has you back on target immediately open the bolt and eject the shell. Too many lads fire then look for a while through the scope and think about the shot while the bolt is still closed, hence the barrel is "closed off", so to speak. Opening the bolt immediately after a shot allows the air to run through the chamber/breech and down the barrel aiding in the cooling of the barrel.

If you can fire a couple of fouling shots to heat the barrel and "dirty" it up. Then time your shots (after the second fouling) so that each shot has as close to the same conditions as the previous one. You should find your groups tightening a little and assuming your hold, etc is the same you will get more predictable and consistant results.

Anyways just a few thoughts. You may find some or none of them helpful.

thanks for the advice,i will take it on board,.....you learn something new every day and i am still learning but i am getting there slowly but surely.so thanks lads for all the reply,s..

Martin.

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

working the bolt circulates the air, as I said, i only work it once or twice.(it's no a science, just what I have found by experimentation that works)

It's been working many years now, and I don't leave long intervals between shots on a nice summers evening when Bunnies want to play tag.

heat Not a big deal on any of your rifles as you only shoot small bore;)

You'd get as much air 'circulating' if you blew into the breech .

If you really think the bolt acts as some kind of pump, put your finger at the end of the barrel and 'pump' the bolt. You wouldn't get a gnat's fart out the end. :rolleyes:

sikastag

jwshooter wrote: »

i know my rifle can shoot ,i know i can shoot , so i dont bother shoothing groups its point less .

we shoot some long range vermin and field targets to learn , my mother will shoot a group of a bench .

a few bottles of water will cool the barrel , also with the over barrel type mods take them off ,a ice pack will work well .

new guns , new ammo i will shoot 5 shot groups .3 shots are grand to check out the rifle you know .

OP did specifically mention targetting but I agree, for hunting I shoot 3 shot group to verify my rifle shoots the same as always before season opens.

Vegeta

Anyone ever go to extremes and put a thermometer on the barrel

I have a fairly decent multimeter which comes with temperature probe and the odd time I have been tempted to stick it to the barrel and record the temperature increase over a shot string.

Haven't bother bringing it out in the muck and dirt though. Maybe next time

johngalway

Just remember to remove it before the next shot Veg

Vegeta

johngalway wrote: »

Just remember to remove it before the next shot Veg

ha ha

I had two ideas in mind, take spot readings between shots at chamber end (giving adequate time for heat soak), or tape the probe to the exterior of the barrel

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

once you have establish you have a accurate hunting rifle and your ammo is compatible and grouping well , whats the point of banging away off a bench style rest

Checking that your hunting rifle is still accurate; checking a new batch of ammo; checking to make sure that you are still accurate and can read wind (rather than getting off a lucky shot or two in still conditions and then declaring that it's all sorted and going out and wounding an animal instead of killing it because you couldn't adjust for wind properly, not having practised it on a range).
There are other reasons, but those are the first three that come to mind.

sikastag

Sparks wrote: »

Checking that your hunting rifle is still accurate; checking a new batch of ammo; checking to make sure that you are still accurate and can read wind (rather than getting off a lucky shot or two in still conditions and then declaring that it's all sorted and going out and wounding an animal instead of killing it because you couldn't adjust for wind properly, not having practised it on a range).
There are other reasons, but those are the first three that come to mind.

Shouldnt even point a firearm at an animal if you cant do the basics. But, once an experienced shot with an intimate knowledge of your firearm, your ammo, your abilities and limitations, a three shot group to check everything is as it should be normally does the trick provided there are no parameters changed ammo batch, etc.

Sparks

The catch is "provided nothing changes" sika, but apart from that, I agree; but even if your rifle bore never erodes, and you never develop some sort of hardware fault; not shooting regularly means that your skills decay and time on the range is the only real cure.

sikastag

Certainly sparks. Practice never did my shooting any harm yet nor anyone I know either.

jwshooter

i dont shoot targets other that to check a rifle . i have been doing a lot with my .22 in the last month again in field condition .

on the range the wind over the course of a session it will not change alot . on the hill over the day you can have it from any angle .

thats why i shoot long range vermin and field targets more so that paper on a range .

dCorbus

on the range the wind over the course of a session it will not change alot

Eh?
Coulda fooled me!

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Coulda fooled me!

And me. And quite a lot of other range users I think!

Cass

Vegeta wrote: »

Anyone ever go to extremes and put a thermometer on the barrel

Not me personally. Wouldn't know where to start.

I do remember reading an article written by an engineer that was into target shooting and hunting. He wanted to know the same things. I don't know/remember how he achieved these results but he reckoned that in some caliber rifles the core temperature can hit 4,000 degrees and the pressure can hit 65,000 psi. He did state that these are fraction of a second measurements. As in they are peak measurments and not sustained ones.

Anyway, i have neither the ability or the capability to duplicate these and really, i don't want to. As long as the bullet comes out the barrel an hits what i want.

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Eh?
Coulda fooled me!

Sparks wrote: »

And me. And quite a lot of other range users I think!

Well, no, he's absolutely right. If you're stalking you could be moving down a steep valley, with winds streaming in behind you or in front of you from an angle, down the side, hitting the bottom and creating strange eddy effects, then you might climb out of that valley and be on two miles of undulating open moor, with flat plateaus and dips, finishing up on a lowland section of open moor covered in small stands of trees. That topography will have a marked influence on the different wind patterns. The topography of a range isn't going to change in the course of a shooting session, so he's right in that in a long day's stalking, you're likely to encounter far more different wind conditions than on a range.

Sparks

But unless you're going to shoot in all those conditions at some sort of a target, you'll never learn the wind in those conditions; and you shouldn't be training like that on live animals. Which leaves you back at the range, trying to figure out what a slowly revolving (in the vertical plane) wind flag means to your PoI...

dCorbus

IWM, he's not absolutely right.

You're actually pointing out that conditions on a daylong stalk over varied terrain and wind conditions will produce a varied set of conditions - That's not what jw said - that's what you are now saying (but that's not what was previously posted - and in fact one is not related to the other). No-one is disputing what you've posted.

so he's right in that in a long day's stalking, you're likely to encounter far more different wind conditions than on a range

No, IWM, you're saying that - jw didn't. Read his post again.
What jw actually posted was:

"over the course of a session it will not change alot"

That's just not true - there are too many variables to make such a widesweeping and all incompassing statement. Over the course of a session it may change a lot, Over the course of a session it may not change a lot, what length is a "course of a session", what time of day is it, what distance are you shooting, where is the range located, what the topography like, etc etc etc

Yes, you may get more variables on a day-long stalk over hills and dales - but equally you may get more variable on a full day on the range. JW's sweeping statement is incorrect. That's the long and short of it.

Plus, as jw's already stated he only will shoot 3-shot groups (or none at all, depending on which post one reads), his concept of the length of a "course of a session" and yours and mine are two very different things, I'd suspect.

i dont bother shoothing groups its point less

Are you going to paraphrase that statement too, and agree with it?

But, to state that conditions on a range over the course of a session will "not change a lot" is not true, not matter which way you want to slice it.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

But unless you're going to shoot in all those conditions at some sort of a target, you'll never learn the wind in those conditions; and you shouldn't be training like that on live animals. Which leaves you back at the range, trying to figure out what a slowly revolving (in the vertical plane) wind flag means to your PoI...

No, that's why he's advocating practical target practice in the field, which will teach you how to shoot at an angle (show me a target shooting range that can replicate a thirty degree, 250 yard downhill shot with a wind blowing 20mph, gusting to 30mph, as you might find stalking red deer in the Highlands) and to learn what topography does to a visible wind condition and what conditions it will produce. These just aren't possible to replicate on a target shooting range. You also have to get used to observing different wind indicators across the entire distance of your shot, from grass or dandelion seeds under your nose to reed clumps a hundred yards out or the waving of twigs on a tree by the target. It's different, and the only thing shooting at a bench is any use for is sighting a rifle. It doesn't get you proper practice. If you're going to shoot live animals, that's certainly not how you should be training.

dCorbus wrote: »

IWM, he's not absolutely right.

"over the course of a session it will not change alot"

That's just no true - there are too many variables to make such a widesweeping and all incompassing statement. Over the course of a session it may change a lot, Over the course of a session it may not change a lot, what length is a "course of a session", what time of day is it, what distance are you shooting, where is the range located, what the topography like, etc etc etc

Yes, you may get more variables on a day-long stalk over hills and dales - but equally you may get more variable on a full day on the range. JW's sweeping statement is incorrect. That's the long and short of it.

Plus, as jw's already stated he only with shoot 3-shot groups or none at all, so his concept of the length of a "course of a session" and yours and mine are two very different things, I'd suspect.

But, to state that conditions on a range over the course of a session will "not change a lot" is not true, not matter which way you want to slice it.

You're just not going to get the variations produced by topography. It's not possible. If you were shooting targets up in DRC, on a range, and I'm stalking deer half a mile away, on the open hill, I'm going to encounter more challenges to my wind reading, because I've no flags, I've natural wind indicators to observe, and I have the variations of topography. It's just really simple. If you eliminate the variable values of something like distance or angle (as these are fixed on a target shooting range and over-complicate the comparison) and ask, for a given range, with a given round, which is going to be harder to shoot in due to the wind, then the answer is the field shot, because ranges have flags and the hill has a myriad topographical variations to affect the whole process. In a half mile of hill stalking, you'll find an awful lot more wind conditions than you will across 800 yards on the Windmill range.

dCorbus

Sorry, IWM, that's what you are saying.
And I'm not going to debate the points with you here - mainly coz I pretty much agree with you.

BUT.....you are saying this.

JW didn't post anything of the sort - You may be inferring what he meant. But from his posts, that's not what he stated. At all.

No one (so far) is disagreeing with you - but please stop defending jw's blanket sweeping statement, which is incorrect.
,
What you are posting and what jw posted are two very different statements.

BTW How many deer would you shoot at 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 900, 1000, and 1200yds?
Not many, i'd guess / hope.
Reading the wind and knowing what the wind is doing at 100 - 200yds on a pretty large target area using a 308, 30-06, .243 etc is pretty much irrelevant. It's not going to put you off the target.
You don't need wind flags at 100 - 200 with a large deer caliber IMHO - Yes, you have the natural indicators, instead of wind flags, so what?

you'll find an awful lot more wind conditions than you will across 800 yards on the Windmill range.

Don't be too sure about that!
Also, who's talking about windmill here? I didn't mention it.
But now you mention it - So, you are telling me: That you will experience the same conditions on the covered 50m as at the 100yd range as at the 300yd as at 500yd range as at the 900yd range? The same wind will be blowing, the same light conditions will prevail as we move through the day's shooting? Oh, if only........

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that if you sit in a high chair on a hill, the topography ain't gonna change much either.

JW made a sweeping generalised and IMO factually incorrect statement.
I disagreed with his statement.
You are now adding to what you think jw meant, in a effort to back up his statement.
He didn't mention anything which you have put forward.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted.
I do disagree with jw's statement.

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

Sorry, IWM, that's what you are saying.
And I'm not going to debate the points with you here - mainly coz I pretty much agree with you.

BUT.....you are saying this.

JW didn't post anything of the sort - You may be inferring what he meant. But from his posts, that's not what he stated. At all.

No one (so far) is disagreeing with you - but stop defending a blanket sweeping statement which is incorrect.

What you are posting and what jw posted are two very different statements.

He's mentioned two different types of target shooting, one being on the range and one being in the field. He's stated he doesn't shoot targets other than to check the rifle. It's obvious he means this is on the range as he immediately goes on to say that he prefers long range vermin shooting and field targets to practise, because obviously the former type of shooting doesn't do anything for one's practical skillset. I'm not inferring anything that isn't there. You've agreed with me that the wind variations in a hunting situation are greater than on the range, but you disagreed when he said the same thing. That there are more variable winds in a given days stalking across mixed terrain than there are in a day on the range is a blanket statement, but it's one I agree with. Sure, you might find the one day in a blue moon that doesn't fit this pattern, but one swallow, no summer.

dCorbus

he's advocating practical target practice in the field

What now? Didn't read where he said that.
Practical Target Practice in the Field? Where do I sign up?:rolleyes:

Oh, sorry, I can't - Target practice outside an authorised range is verboten, is it not?

But if someone wants to run a practical field target training day, I'll be there.;):D

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

What now? Didn't read where he said that.
Practical Target Practice in the Field? Where do I sign up?:rolleyes:

Oh, sorry, I can't - Target practice outside an authorised range is verboten, is it not?

But if someone wants to run a practical field target training day, I'll be there.;):D

It's quoted below. Target shooting is indeed, but until they define what that actually means, it's going to continue to be necessary to verify what a bullet does in varying conditions of wind and angle for field shooting. Indeed, since those conditions can never be replicated on a range, a range can never be the place to do it.

jwshooter wrote: »

thats why i shoot long range vermin and field targets more so that paper on a range .

dCorbus

You've agreed with me that the wind variations in a hunting situation are greater than on the range, but you disagreed when he said the same thing.

FFS IWM, he did not say the same thing.

I have agreed with you that wind variations in a hunting situation may be greater than on the range. I did not agree that, to quote jw: "over a session, it will not change alot".

What you are saying and what he was saying are different. On your post, I agree with you (to an extent) and on jw's post, I disagree with jw. Simples.

It wasn't me!

Except that, relatively speaking, and in the context of field shooting, he's spot on.

Alright, as a thought experiment, what are the widest range of corrections you've used at, say, 200 yards on the range?

jwshooter

dCorbus wrote: »

FFS IWM, he did not say the same thing.

I have agreed with you that wind variations in a hunting situation may be greater than on the range. I did not agree that, to quote jw: "over a session, it will not change alot".

What you are saying and what he was saying are different. On your post, I agree with you (to an extent) and on jw's post, I disagree with jw. Simples.

To spend a day on a range shooting paper at known distances ,directly in front of you ,wind will never change from one side to another or cause up or down drafts like shooting over open hill or dale from shot to shot .when it does change it will slowly ,gusts more a problem are they not .

i have a several spots where i can shoot out to 1000yds , at angles from 9 to 3 o clock .even at 400yds bullet drift can be measured in feet on a windy day and the next shot from the same spot ,different angle the shot is held on .


we would use balloons a lot ,blown up to different sizes .tied randomly to heather grass out to silly ranges .

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung .

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung .

You do go to ranges to shoot jw, you're just doing it illegally on an ad hoc range out in the middle of nowhere. And I'll grant you, this is a case where the law is an ass because you do need to be able to learn to shoot up and downhill and so forth and most ranges are built to avoid that kind of topography; but nonetheless, you're on a range when shooting balloons, just an illegal ad hoc one.

As to talking pure dung, I'll happily put you and someone like Floydster side-by-side and bet a weeks pay that Floydster will outshoot you up and down the firing line. Shooting knowledge is not somehow confined solely to those who hunt.

dCorbus

jw, your own statements about wind conditions on ranges really just go to show who's the one "talking dung" right about now:

wind will never change from one side to another

Not on any range or at any distance I've ever shot at. Wind can and does change from one side to the other. Unfortunately.:D

cause up or down drafts like shooting over open hill or dale from shot to shot

Up or down drafts - Hmmmm.....which range are we talking about?
The only ones I can speak of are:
Midlands Range - Not much issue with up or down drafts (if it's whipping winds up from a valley or thermals rising).
Diggle Range - Hell yes, there be up and down drafts there.
An Riocht - Yep, there's an annoying up draft which can occur right in front of the raised 300yd firing point, there's also winds whipping back off the mountain behind the targets to deal with on occassion.

Can't comment on other ranges personally, but from the three I've shot at, the conditions and wind "personalities" are VERY different at each one.

when it does change it will slowly

Oh, if only.......
Sudden changes in the wind speed and direction are what really f**k things up / make things interesting. And yes, they happen. More often than not.

gusts more a problem are they not

They're a problem too TBH.

.even at 400yds bullet drift can be measured in feet on a windy day and the next shot from the same spot ,different angle the shot is held on

Yes. Of course. I've heard about bullet drift.;):D

another reason i dont go to ranges to shoot , to many lads talking pure dung

Thanks. Not sure who is the one "talking dung" here.
But whilst I'm the first to admit I know little or nothing about hunting, some people seem to be experts on the various conditions at shooting ranges, even though they admit to not using them.:p

dCorbus

Except that, relatively speaking, and in the context of field shooting, he's spot on.

In the context of field shooting - you're right and I agree. But in the context of range shooting, I think we should all stop digging right about now.;)

what are the widest range of corrections you've used at, say, 200 yards on the range

Can't remember the last time I shot at the 200yd mark. Probably the last time you were beside me with Mark - or were we on the 300yd that time?

TBH as you know, I don't shoot at the 200yd mark, except for getting/checking my zero.

Ask me another one!;):D:D:D:rolleyes:

Widest range of corrections (say from yesterday at 900yds), now that's a different story - Let's just say the "range of corrections" required was extensive to deal / address the uni-directional non-changeable slow-changing light winds and stable conditions which seem to exist on jw's imaginary idyllic range.;):D

(Actually, don't ask me another one - This is way off thread - and I'm off)

jwshooter

dCorbus wrote: »

In the context of field shooting - you're right and I agree. But in the context of range shooting, I think we should all stop digging right about now.;)



Can't remember the last time I shot at the 200yd mark. Probably the last time you were beside me with Mark - or were we on the 300yd that time?

TBH as you know, I don't shoot at the 200yd mark, except for getting/checking my zero.

Ask me another one!;):D:D:D:rolleyes:

Widest range of corrections (say from yesterday at 900yds), now that's a different story - Let's just say the "range of corrections" required was extensive to deal / address the uni-directional non-changeable slow-changing light winds and stable conditions which seem to exist on jw's imaginary idyllic range.;):D

(Actually, don't ask me another one - This is way off thread - and I'm off)

again the reason why i dont go to rifle ranges ..

badshot

isn't this the hunting forum?

Tackleberrywho

I have to say I prefer shooting in the field anyday. Especially if the target moves

In regars to warm barrels and shooting in the field, noty of huge concern at 100-300.

Wind is the problem, and angle compensation, shooting from hill to vcalley, hill to hill etc.

Biggest problem is finding a place to get a shot.
Wallysworld can confirm I crawled on my belt buckle through a place that cattle had dug up with their hooves to get a shot.

Then my biggest problem was stopping the bipod sinking in the muck.
Thankfully harris stalking bipod has fully adjustable legs and I was able to get a shot off.

The only probnlem with things warming up is the mod's if you shoot a few shots. After shooting 14 rabbits in 45 mins (my Personal best in one sitting) the Mod was quite hot and I had to dial down teh scope as the mirage/heat haze was brutal.

God I love Hunting

johngalway

badshot wrote: »

isn't this the hunting forum?

Good point, moved to Shooting.

Martinobrien

Very interesting reading lads,being only new to shooting the big bore rifle i find this very educational,but i need to ask a few questions,first i want to know is,how can you measure the wind when shooting on a windy day and does the bullet drift that much over a long distance,i never had a problem shooting my CZ.22,but than again i rearly shot over a hundred yards and i can remember being out on a bad windy day.