Zeroing, ballastics and rifle types.. so many questions!!

mightyabhabelle · 03-09-2010 03:41PM #1

ok.. here goes my Friday questions and answers section... all help appreciated.

1) I have a CZ .22 452-2e zkm. How do I know if its an American, Varmint, Lux, Scout, Silhouette, Style, etc. Is it with the length of the barrel.?

2) When measuring the length of a .22 barrel its from the tip, to the...where, end of the barrel where the round goes in, end of the bolt?

3) Does LR (long rifle) apply to all rifles ie CZ etc over a certain length. Also does it mean that it only shoots LR rounds.

4) What is the best range to zero my rifle for all round shooting. Is it 75 yards..

thanks again - M

PS... Sparks... you need to get that Terminology thread up for me... this stuff gets technical and I just thought is was pointing and shooting

TheCZkid · 03-09-2010 03:45PM

what stock is on it wood/synthetic?
does it have iron sights?
does it have a heavy barrel?

.22lr is the caliber it is the .22 bullet that every place stock and everyone shoots. i think the can shoot .22 shorts ans longs but not sure,

sfakiaman · 03-09-2010 03:57PM

1) Go into the CZ website and compare your rifle with the specs on the site.

2) Barrel length is usually measured from the bolt face to the muzzle.

3) LR (long rifle) refers to the cartrige the rifle is chambered for and has nothing to do with the length of barrel. LR will also chamber .22 long & short.

4) The distance you zero at will depend on your own type of shooting but I find 75yds is good for me.

mightyabhabelle · 03-09-2010 06:19PM

thanks lads. Yeah the stock is wooden alright and the length from the tip of the barrel to the face of the bolt is 77mm or 30 and 1/4 inches.

Yes it has iron sights which I dont use and is heavy but I dont mind to much.

LMAO.. I'm learning every day... but cant get over that a .22 LR round was for the round and not the Gun. Does that mean that a .22 Hornet is a gun that fires this type of round... would that be correct and that you cant fire a .22LR round in a .22 hornet... sorry for the dopey questions..

need to see if there any night classes in this stuff lol

Cass · 03-09-2010 07:10PM

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

1) I have a CZ .22 452-2e zkm. How do I know if its an American, Varmint, Lux, Scout, Silhouette, Style, etc. Is it with the length of the barrel.?

I think the American versions have a straighter rear/butt stock as opposed to the European "humped" style rear/butt stock. As the the exact model, well not being a smart a**e but what did you ask for. Different models will have different features so it may be possible to find out depending on barrel length, etc. Try remeasuring the barrel again though. 77cm or 30.5 inches seems excessively long for a CZ .22lr.

2) When measuring the length of a .22 barrel its from the tip, to the...where, end of the barrel where the round goes in, end of the bolt?

From the muzzle (where bullet comes out) to the point it screws into the receiver/action. (G - in the diagram below )

3) Does LR (long rifle) apply to all rifles ie CZ etc over a certain length. Also does it mean that it only shoots LR rounds.

As mentioned it refers to the type of bullet fired. As in a .22 calibre, long shell/case.

4) What is the best range to zero my rifle for all round shooting. Is it 75 yards..

Personal choice. I prefer 50 yds. There is a 6 inch drop from 50yds to 100yds with a .22 subsonic. You can zero at 75 or even a 100. As said though try 50, then do a quick drop chart for 75yds and 100 yds.

meathstevie · 03-09-2010 07:34PM

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

thanks lads. Yeah the stock is wooden alright and the length from the tip of the barrel to the face of the bolt is 77mm or 30 and 1/4 inches.

Yes it has iron sights which I dont use and is heavy but I dont mind to much.

LMAO.. I'm learning every day... but cant get over that a .22 LR round was for the round and not the Gun. Does that mean that a .22 Hornet is a gun that fires this type of round... would that be correct and that you cant fire a .22LR round in a .22 hornet... sorry for the dopey questions..

need to see if there any night classes in this stuff lol

The only similarity between a .22 hornet and a .22lr is that they both fire a projectile of a diameter of .22 inches ( or nearly .22 inches ) so does a .220 Swift, a .222 or a .223 or 5.56mm NATO or a .22-250. All these calibres fire projectiles of .22 inches or around that. They're all very different in regards to type of primer ( rimfire for .22lr and .22 magnum and centerfire for all the rest ), energy transfer on target, trajectory etc etc.. . For example a .22lr will only hurt a fox at 200 metres while chances are that you'll vaporize it with a .220 Swift.

fiestaman · 03-09-2010 08:48PM

If it has chequering at the grip and fore end its a lux model, no chequering its a basic model. the models are only the type of stock, noting to do with the action.

mightyabhabelle · 04-09-2010 04:43PM

ah thanks gents... I'm making all the rookie mistakes now... tried to zero the gun and got it fairly close... went out again to hit some targets and couldnt hit jack... then released that the ammo I was using was different ammo than what I zero'ed it with...duh.

So now I'm going out again with different ammo to see which fires best from the gun, then zero it with that ammo and stay with it. Would this be the correct approach.

Also, is there any courses on this stuff. Its more technical than people give it credit for and there is some expertise on these boards. Would be great if there was something where I could learn all about the ammo, zeroing, basic handling etc. I thought I could jump straight in and off I go.... no chance...

thanks M

Tackleberrywho · 04-09-2010 04:53PM

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

ah thanks gents... I'm making all the rookie mistakes now... tried to zero the gun and got it fairly close... went out again to hit some targets and couldnt hit jack... then released that the ammo I was using was different ammo than what I zero'ed it with...duh.

So now I'm going out again with different ammo to see which fires best from the gun, then zero it with that ammo and stay with it. Would this be the correct approach.

Also, is there any courses on this stuff. Its more technical than people give it credit for and there is some expertise on these boards. Would be great if there was something where I could learn all about the ammo, zeroing, basic handling etc. I thought I could jump straight in and off I go.... no chance...

thanks M

go to MNSCI any weekend and there is always folk there more than happy to help out a Rookie

jap gt · 04-09-2010 05:18PM

did you not do a course to get your firearm

meathstevie · 04-09-2010 05:21PM

jap gt wrote: »

did you not do a course to get your firearm

I thought proof of basic proficiency was mandatory now for new applicants ?
Or have I missed something ?

jap gt · 05-09-2010 01:17AM

as far as i know its up to the firearms officer/ super if they want you to do it, it might be a good idea for the op to do one of these courses they will cover all the basics

Tackleberrywho · 05-09-2010 01:24AM

Safety courses won't show you how to Zero, tell you about ammo, or hunting techniques though.

That is were joining a club/or even just visiting one may be helpful.

When I was starting out there was no clubs for me to go to.
I've picked up a good few tips down the years from going out shooting with different people.

Especially where to get good deals on ammo and equipment!;):D

A safety course does not aim to achieve this.

Perhaps a few intermediate courses could be invented?
Learning to zero quickly safes a fortune on ammo and patience, a few pointers on a course could solve this

Sparks · 05-09-2010 01:50AM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Safety courses won't show you how to Zero, tell you about ammo, or hunting techniques though.

Any "safety" course that doesn't show that at a minimum isn't worth paying for.
If you can't safely zero a rifle, you shouldn't be shooting it; funny things can happen with airguns, but they can become tragic with smallbore or fullbore.
Frankly, if phrases like "bore-sighting" aren't at least theoretically familiar, you really shouldn't be firing a rifle outdoors.

Tackleberrywho · 05-09-2010 05:00AM

Sparks wrote: »

Any "safety" course that doesn't show that at a minimum isn't worth paying for.
If you can't safely zero a rifle, you shouldn't be shooting it; funny things can happen with airguns, but they can become tragic with smallbore or fullbore.
Frankly, if phrases like "bore-sighting" aren't at least theoretically familiar, you really shouldn't be firing a rifle outdoors.

Therein lies my point.
I have done a number of courses on firearms.
Never was I shown in civie life in an official form how to zero, How to strip and assemble a rifle/shotgun down to basic components.

rrpc · 05-09-2010 09:35AM

You have to prove competency to get a licence. That's not the same thing as safety. It would incorporate safety, but competency with a firearm should also incorporate such things as adjusting the sights, familiarity with the workings of the firearm, cleaning etc.

This is all very basic stuff that any beginner should be taught. I honestly can't see how you could introduce someone to shooting without covering them. Otherwise it would be a very short course.

Tackleberrywho · 05-09-2010 03:21PM

rrpc wrote: »

You have to prove competency to get a licence. That's not the same thing as safety. It would incorporate safety, but competency with a firearm should also incorporate such things as adjusting the sights, familiarity with the workings of the firearm, cleaning etc.

This is all very basic stuff that any beginner should be taught. I honestly can't see how you could introduce someone to shooting without covering them. Otherwise it would be a very short course.

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Every rifle,shotgun,pistol is different.

Stripping and assembly is also different.
There are several different designs of scopes on the market, zeroing is slightly different with them all.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/riflescopes.html

Every ammo is different trajectory and characteristics are different with them all and even within calibres
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers

(Match,FMJ,Softnose,Hollowpoint,Ballistic tipped etc)
Shotguns have even more types of ammo available.
http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/compcarts.html

There are no magic courses for beginners. And if there was they would probably cost hundreds to complete and take weeks to complete.

For a young fella/girl starting out there is so much info out there, it is often hard to sift through it to find pertinent info to the person.

going into a public hall and doing a 4 hour course is not going to cover everything.

And our legal system makes it very difficult for a lay person to relay info of instruct a person in the field.

Sparks · 05-09-2010 03:46PM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Yes, but none that I know of for cartridge rifles/pistols or shotguns - though I'd not be shocked to learn that there are some I don't know of that are that extensive.

rrpc · 05-09-2010 04:01PM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Every rifle,shotgun,pistol is different.

Stripping and assembly is also different.
There are several different designs of scopes on the market, zeroing is slightly different with them all.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/riflescopes.html

Every ammo is different trajectory and characteristics are different with them all and even within calibres
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers

(Match,FMJ,Softnose,Hollowpoint,Ballistic tipped etc)
Shotguns have even more types of ammo available.
http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/compcarts.html

There are no magic courses for beginners. And if there was they would probably cost hundreds to complete and take weeks to complete.

For a young fella/girl starting out there is so much info out there, it is often hard to sift through it to find pertinent info to the person.

going into a public hall and doing a 4 hour course is not going to cover everything.

And our legal system makes it very difficult for a lay person to relay info of instruct a person in the field.

Why would you need to learn all this for a competency course to get a license?

You're applying for a license for a particular firearm, let's say it's a CZ .22.

So why would you need to know about shotguns, pistols or the trajectories and ballistic info on anything other than a .22lr?

Are you suggesting that by the same token, you'd have to do a course on every particular vehicle ever produced to get a license to drive a motorbike?

And as for zeroing scopes, really? you have to do a course on how to zero them all? because there are slight differences?

Once you've learned to zero a scope, or fixed sights for that matter; for every new one you get, I've four little letters that do the job admirably: RTFM :rolleyes:

Something I believe a lot of people don't pay enough attention to.

Sparks · 05-09-2010 04:05PM

To be fair, I think Tackleberry was commenting on how shotgun courses don't cover some things, rifle courses don't cover others, and so on.

rrpc · 05-09-2010 04:12PM

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair, I think Tackleberry was commenting on how shotgun courses don't cover some things, rifle courses don't cover others, and so on.

Which wasn't what the OP needed. Tackleberrywho seems to be talking about a ballistics course which is just slightly OTT for proof of competency.

And totally OTT for a beginner.

Sparks · 05-09-2010 04:16PM

As to courses, this is WTSC's one. The same as any other course out there, it's not specifically listed as being suitable for fulfilling the competency requirement for a licence application (there just aren't any courses at all that are, but we've never had anyone find that the Gardai don't accept it, same as with other courses (this is something that needs regularising at FCP level really, hint, hint...). It's also air-rifle only, but it does give an idea of what we thought should go into a beginner's course (and it's not intended as some sort of advert either, btw, we're already fairly heavily over-subscribed for the course).

WTSC wrote:

Membership of our club is open to anyone, but for those who haven't ever shot before, we strongly recommend that you take the beginners course first.

Some basic facts:
The beginners course runs for two hours, one night a week for six weeks (currently on Tuesday nights).

It costs €60 per person.

It's given by Geoff, who's an ISSF-certified coach.

You don't need to have any equipment, the club provides everything you'll need for the course.

You get a small goody bag with a few things which will prove useful - training diary templates and such.

At the end of the course there is a basic exam on what you've learnt.

Once you've passed the course:
You're signed off on by the club as being safe to shoot air rifles.

You're formally invited to join the club (membership costs €150 per year and includes your insurance)

We're making this a mandatory route into the club for all beginners for several reasons:
It means we know you're safe to shoot on the range

It means you know you're safe when learning to shoot on the range

It means you get to know what the sport is like and don't have to spend very much money to find out

It means you get trained in a structured way from the first day by a qualified coach so you don't learn any bad habits

It means you get to know what our club ethos and people are like before signing up

Sparks · 05-09-2010 04:20PM

rrpc wrote: »

Which wasn't what the OP needed. Tackleberrywho seems to be talking about a ballistics course which is just slightly OTT for proof of competency.
And totally OTT for a beginner.

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

Tackleberrywho · 05-09-2010 04:34PM

Sparks wrote: »

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

My point has been missed

I said there is TOO much for a person to have to SIFT through out there.

A course where you submit on the application, Firearm calibre, Quarry species and Ranges shot. then the person would be shown/quized on the correct methods.

Get them to bring a few brands of ammo along to show them the differences in grouping for their rifle

Nothing to stop a person buying 75grain ammo for a 1/12 twist .223 and they won't hit the broad side of the barn, which may be a SAFETY concern.

So if they fire the rifle and see the differences on paper between 75 grain & 40,50 or 55 grain then they will never buy 75 grain again.

(I know of a fella that was sold 100 rounds of 75 grain for a Remington!)

Sparks · 05-09-2010 05:03PM

That seems fair enough for a hunting course alright Tack; but it's really down to the RGCs to give those courses; and given that there's a fair amount of resistance even to the relatively mild form of testing that the HCAP provides, I don't see it happening anytime soon

tac foley · 05-09-2010 05:26PM

Sparks wrote: »

As to courses, this is WTSC's one. The same as any other course out there, it's not specifically listed as being suitable for fulfilling the competency requirement for a licence application (there just aren't any courses at all that are, but we've never had anyone find that the Gardai don't accept it, same as with other courses (this is something that needs regularising at FCP level really, hint, hint...). It's also air-rifle only, but it does give an idea of what we thought should go into a beginner's course (and it's not intended as some sort of advert either, btw, we're already fairly heavily over-subscribed for the course).

That is a very good idea - and will give the total noob a good grounding in the same use of firearms, or in your case, air rifles, since they are also classed as firearms in the RoI.

Here in UK you are required to serve a six-month probationary period with the gun-club before you are permitted to apply for a firearms licence [FAC]. You must have an FAC BEFORE you acquire any firearm. Probationary membership of a gun club here in UK entitles the probie to shoot any and all the club guns, and, with permission, any gun he or she might be offered by a fellow club member, apart from the so-called long-barrelled revolvers we have on mainlnad UK [not NI].

The type and style of firearm you want to be able to shoot must be decided before you apply, since the licence [FAC], when it is finally granted, will entitle you to acquire only those firearms for which you applied and suitable ammuniton. There is also a mandatory test before the club secretary deems you to be a safe and suitable candidate for an FAC. Remember that here the initial application for an FAC is counter-signed by the club secretary and also accompanied by the opinions of two referees, not connected with the gun club, who have known you for more than two years.

Anything sensible that can lead to the development of a safe shooter is useful, regardless how the rules dictate or suggest that it should be done. both the Irish model and the British model serve to do the same thing.

tac

tac foley · 05-09-2010 05:29PM

Sparks wrote: »

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

rrpc · 05-09-2010 05:41PM

tac foley wrote: »

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

Oh no, we have about a half dozen :rolleyes:

There is a proficiency course run by an alliance of some of the deer organisations which is necessary if you wish to hunt deer on state lands. There is no such requirement if you hunt on privately owned land.

CJhaughey · 05-09-2010 05:47PM

tac foley wrote: »

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

We do actually have quite a few associations and societies that deal with deer.
Most come under the umbrella group Deer Alliance.

tac foley · 05-09-2010 05:53PM

CJhaughey wrote: »

We do actually have quite a few associations and societies that deal with deer.
Most come under the umbrella group Deer Alliance.

That's good to know - do they cover basic ballistcs and ammunition choice as part of the course?

tac

tac foley · 05-09-2010 06:06PM

rrpc wrote: »

Oh no, we have about a half dozen :rolleyes:

There is a proficiency course run by an alliance of some of the deer organisations which is necessary if you wish to hunt deer on state lands. There is no such requirement if you hunt on privately owned land.

Sir - I asked a serious question since I am completely ignorant of the way that such organisations are set up in the RoI. A look at this site over a period of just a a week would show anybody looking in that the vast majority of shooters here are game shooters, rather than paper-punchers, which led me to my comment in the first place.

Here in UK nobody is allowed to shoot, even on private land, without having proven documentation that they are both fit to do so, and are knowledgeable about what they are actually doing when they squeeze a trigger on a live animal.

tac

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Zeroing, ballastics and rifle types.. so many questions!!

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