Zeroing, ballastics and rifle types.. so many questions!!

mightyabhabelle

ok.. here goes my Friday questions and answers section... all help appreciated.

1) I have a CZ .22 452-2e zkm. How do I know if its an American, Varmint, Lux, Scout, Silhouette, Style, etc. Is it with the length of the barrel.?

2) When measuring the length of a .22 barrel its from the tip, to the...where, end of the barrel where the round goes in, end of the bolt?

3) Does LR (long rifle) apply to all rifles ie CZ etc over a certain length. Also does it mean that it only shoots LR rounds.

4) What is the best range to zero my rifle for all round shooting. Is it 75 yards..

thanks again - M

PS... Sparks... you need to get that Terminology thread up for me... this stuff gets technical and I just thought is was pointing and shooting

TheCZkid

what stock is on it wood/synthetic?
does it have iron sights?
does it have a heavy barrel?

.22lr is the caliber it is the .22 bullet that every place stock and everyone shoots. i think the can shoot .22 shorts ans longs but not sure,

sfakiaman

1) Go into the CZ website and compare your rifle with the specs on the site.

2) Barrel length is usually measured from the bolt face to the muzzle.

3) LR (long rifle) refers to the cartrige the rifle is chambered for and has nothing to do with the length of barrel. LR will also chamber .22 long & short.

4) The distance you zero at will depend on your own type of shooting but I find 75yds is good for me.

mightyabhabelle

thanks lads. Yeah the stock is wooden alright and the length from the tip of the barrel to the face of the bolt is 77mm or 30 and 1/4 inches.

Yes it has iron sights which I dont use and is heavy but I dont mind to much.

LMAO.. I'm learning every day... but cant get over that a .22 LR round was for the round and not the Gun. Does that mean that a .22 Hornet is a gun that fires this type of round... would that be correct and that you cant fire a .22LR round in a .22 hornet... sorry for the dopey questions..

need to see if there any night classes in this stuff lol

Cass

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

1) I have a CZ .22 452-2e zkm. How do I know if its an American, Varmint, Lux, Scout, Silhouette, Style, etc. Is it with the length of the barrel.?

I think the American versions have a straighter rear/butt stock as opposed to the European "humped" style rear/butt stock. As the the exact model, well not being a smart a**e but what did you ask for. Different models will have different features so it may be possible to find out depending on barrel length, etc. Try remeasuring the barrel again though. 77cm or 30.5 inches seems excessively long for a CZ .22lr.

2) When measuring the length of a .22 barrel its from the tip, to the...where, end of the barrel where the round goes in, end of the bolt?

From the muzzle (where bullet comes out) to the point it screws into the receiver/action. (G - in the diagram below )

3) Does LR (long rifle) apply to all rifles ie CZ etc over a certain length. Also does it mean that it only shoots LR rounds.

As mentioned it refers to the type of bullet fired. As in a .22 calibre, long shell/case.

4) What is the best range to zero my rifle for all round shooting. Is it 75 yards..

Personal choice. I prefer 50 yds. There is a 6 inch drop from 50yds to 100yds with a .22 subsonic. You can zero at 75 or even a 100. As said though try 50, then do a quick drop chart for 75yds and 100 yds.

meathstevie

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

thanks lads. Yeah the stock is wooden alright and the length from the tip of the barrel to the face of the bolt is 77mm or 30 and 1/4 inches.

Yes it has iron sights which I dont use and is heavy but I dont mind to much.

LMAO.. I'm learning every day... but cant get over that a .22 LR round was for the round and not the Gun. Does that mean that a .22 Hornet is a gun that fires this type of round... would that be correct and that you cant fire a .22LR round in a .22 hornet... sorry for the dopey questions..

need to see if there any night classes in this stuff lol

The only similarity between a .22 hornet and a .22lr is that they both fire a projectile of a diameter of .22 inches ( or nearly .22 inches ) so does a .220 Swift, a .222 or a .223 or 5.56mm NATO or a .22-250. All these calibres fire projectiles of .22 inches or around that. They're all very different in regards to type of primer ( rimfire for .22lr and .22 magnum and centerfire for all the rest ), energy transfer on target, trajectory etc etc.. . For example a .22lr will only hurt a fox at 200 metres while chances are that you'll vaporize it with a .220 Swift.

fiestaman

If it has chequering at the grip and fore end its a lux model, no chequering its a basic model. the models are only the type of stock, noting to do with the action.

mightyabhabelle

ah thanks gents... I'm making all the rookie mistakes now... tried to zero the gun and got it fairly close... went out again to hit some targets and couldnt hit jack... then released that the ammo I was using was different ammo than what I zero'ed it with...duh.

So now I'm going out again with different ammo to see which fires best from the gun, then zero it with that ammo and stay with it. Would this be the correct approach.

Also, is there any courses on this stuff. Its more technical than people give it credit for and there is some expertise on these boards. Would be great if there was something where I could learn all about the ammo, zeroing, basic handling etc. I thought I could jump straight in and off I go.... no chance...

thanks M

Tackleberrywho

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

ah thanks gents... I'm making all the rookie mistakes now... tried to zero the gun and got it fairly close... went out again to hit some targets and couldnt hit jack... then released that the ammo I was using was different ammo than what I zero'ed it with...duh.

So now I'm going out again with different ammo to see which fires best from the gun, then zero it with that ammo and stay with it. Would this be the correct approach.

Also, is there any courses on this stuff. Its more technical than people give it credit for and there is some expertise on these boards. Would be great if there was something where I could learn all about the ammo, zeroing, basic handling etc. I thought I could jump straight in and off I go.... no chance...

thanks M

go to MNSCI any weekend and there is always folk there more than happy to help out a Rookie

jap gt

did you not do a course to get your firearm

meathstevie

jap gt wrote: »

did you not do a course to get your firearm

I thought proof of basic proficiency was mandatory now for new applicants ?
Or have I missed something ?

jap gt

as far as i know its up to the firearms officer/ super if they want you to do it, it might be a good idea for the op to do one of these courses they will cover all the basics

Tackleberrywho

Safety courses won't show you how to Zero, tell you about ammo, or hunting techniques though.

That is were joining a club/or even just visiting one may be helpful.

When I was starting out there was no clubs for me to go to.
I've picked up a good few tips down the years from going out shooting with different people.

Especially where to get good deals on ammo and equipment!;):D

A safety course does not aim to achieve this.

Perhaps a few intermediate courses could be invented?
Learning to zero quickly safes a fortune on ammo and patience, a few pointers on a course could solve this

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Safety courses won't show you how to Zero, tell you about ammo, or hunting techniques though.

Any "safety" course that doesn't show that at a minimum isn't worth paying for.
If you can't safely zero a rifle, you shouldn't be shooting it; funny things can happen with airguns, but they can become tragic with smallbore or fullbore.
Frankly, if phrases like "bore-sighting" aren't at least theoretically familiar, you really shouldn't be firing a rifle outdoors.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Any "safety" course that doesn't show that at a minimum isn't worth paying for.
If you can't safely zero a rifle, you shouldn't be shooting it; funny things can happen with airguns, but they can become tragic with smallbore or fullbore.
Frankly, if phrases like "bore-sighting" aren't at least theoretically familiar, you really shouldn't be firing a rifle outdoors.

Therein lies my point.
I have done a number of courses on firearms.
Never was I shown in civie life in an official form how to zero, How to strip and assemble a rifle/shotgun down to basic components.

rrpc

You have to prove competency to get a licence. That's not the same thing as safety. It would incorporate safety, but competency with a firearm should also incorporate such things as adjusting the sights, familiarity with the workings of the firearm, cleaning etc.

This is all very basic stuff that any beginner should be taught. I honestly can't see how you could introduce someone to shooting without covering them. Otherwise it would be a very short course.

Tackleberrywho

rrpc wrote: »

You have to prove competency to get a licence. That's not the same thing as safety. It would incorporate safety, but competency with a firearm should also incorporate such things as adjusting the sights, familiarity with the workings of the firearm, cleaning etc.

This is all very basic stuff that any beginner should be taught. I honestly can't see how you could introduce someone to shooting without covering them. Otherwise it would be a very short course.

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Every rifle,shotgun,pistol is different.

Stripping and assembly is also different.
There are several different designs of scopes on the market, zeroing is slightly different with them all.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/riflescopes.html

Every ammo is different trajectory and characteristics are different with them all and even within calibres
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers

(Match,FMJ,Softnose,Hollowpoint,Ballistic tipped etc)
Shotguns have even more types of ammo available.
http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/compcarts.html

There are no magic courses for beginners. And if there was they would probably cost hundreds to complete and take weeks to complete.

For a young fella/girl starting out there is so much info out there, it is often hard to sift through it to find pertinent info to the person.

going into a public hall and doing a 4 hour course is not going to cover everything.

And our legal system makes it very difficult for a lay person to relay info of instruct a person in the field.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Yes, but none that I know of for cartridge rifles/pistols or shotguns - though I'd not be shocked to learn that there are some I don't know of that are that extensive.

rrpc

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Is there any courses in civie life here that are longer than 1 day?

Every rifle,shotgun,pistol is different.

Stripping and assembly is also different.
There are several different designs of scopes on the market, zeroing is slightly different with them all.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/riflescopes.html

Every ammo is different trajectory and characteristics are different with them all and even within calibres
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers

(Match,FMJ,Softnose,Hollowpoint,Ballistic tipped etc)
Shotguns have even more types of ammo available.
http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/compcarts.html

There are no magic courses for beginners. And if there was they would probably cost hundreds to complete and take weeks to complete.

For a young fella/girl starting out there is so much info out there, it is often hard to sift through it to find pertinent info to the person.

going into a public hall and doing a 4 hour course is not going to cover everything.

And our legal system makes it very difficult for a lay person to relay info of instruct a person in the field.

Why would you need to learn all this for a competency course to get a license?

You're applying for a license for a particular firearm, let's say it's a CZ .22.

So why would you need to know about shotguns, pistols or the trajectories and ballistic info on anything other than a .22lr?

Are you suggesting that by the same token, you'd have to do a course on every particular vehicle ever produced to get a license to drive a motorbike?

And as for zeroing scopes, really? you have to do a course on how to zero them all? because there are slight differences?

Once you've learned to zero a scope, or fixed sights for that matter; for every new one you get, I've four little letters that do the job admirably: RTFM :rolleyes:

Something I believe a lot of people don't pay enough attention to.

Sparks

To be fair, I think Tackleberry was commenting on how shotgun courses don't cover some things, rifle courses don't cover others, and so on.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair, I think Tackleberry was commenting on how shotgun courses don't cover some things, rifle courses don't cover others, and so on.

Which wasn't what the OP needed. Tackleberrywho seems to be talking about a ballistics course which is just slightly OTT for proof of competency.

And totally OTT for a beginner.

Sparks

As to courses, this is WTSC's one. The same as any other course out there, it's not specifically listed as being suitable for fulfilling the competency requirement for a licence application (there just aren't any courses at all that are, but we've never had anyone find that the Gardai don't accept it, same as with other courses (this is something that needs regularising at FCP level really, hint, hint...). It's also air-rifle only, but it does give an idea of what we thought should go into a beginner's course (and it's not intended as some sort of advert either, btw, we're already fairly heavily over-subscribed for the course).

WTSC wrote:

Membership of our club is open to anyone, but for those who haven't ever shot before, we strongly recommend that you take the beginners course first.

Some basic facts:

• The beginners course runs for two hours, one night a week for six weeks (currently on Tuesday nights).
• It costs €60 per person.
• It's given by Geoff, who's an ISSF-certified coach.
• You don't need to have any equipment, the club provides everything you'll need for the course.
• You get a small goody bag with a few things which will prove useful - training diary templates and such.
• At the end of the course there is a basic exam on what you've learnt.

Once you've passed the course:

1. You're signed off on by the club as being safe to shoot air rifles.
2. You're formally invited to join the club (membership costs €150 per year and includes your insurance)

We're making this a mandatory route into the club for all beginners for several reasons:

• It means we know you're safe to shoot on the range
• It means you know you're safe when learning to shoot on the range
• It means you get to know what the sport is like and don't have to spend very much money to find out
• It means you get trained in a structured way from the first day by a qualified coach so you don't learn any bad habits
• It means you get to know what our club ethos and people are like before signing up

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Which wasn't what the OP needed. Tackleberrywho seems to be talking about a ballistics course which is just slightly OTT for proof of competency.
And totally OTT for a beginner.

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

My point has been missed

I said there is TOO much for a person to have to SIFT through out there.

A course where you submit on the application, Firearm calibre, Quarry species and Ranges shot. then the person would be shown/quized on the correct methods.

Get them to bring a few brands of ammo along to show them the differences in grouping for their rifle

Nothing to stop a person buying 75grain ammo for a 1/12 twist .223 and they won't hit the broad side of the barn, which may be a SAFETY concern.

So if they fire the rifle and see the differences on paper between 75 grain & 40,50 or 55 grain then they will never buy 75 grain again.

(I know of a fella that was sold 100 rounds of 75 grain for a Remington!)

Sparks

That seems fair enough for a hunting course alright Tack; but it's really down to the RGCs to give those courses; and given that there's a fair amount of resistance even to the relatively mild form of testing that the HCAP provides, I don't see it happening anytime soon

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

As to courses, this is WTSC's one. The same as any other course out there, it's not specifically listed as being suitable for fulfilling the competency requirement for a licence application (there just aren't any courses at all that are, but we've never had anyone find that the Gardai don't accept it, same as with other courses (this is something that needs regularising at FCP level really, hint, hint...). It's also air-rifle only, but it does give an idea of what we thought should go into a beginner's course (and it's not intended as some sort of advert either, btw, we're already fairly heavily over-subscribed for the course).

That is a very good idea - and will give the total noob a good grounding in the same use of firearms, or in your case, air rifles, since they are also classed as firearms in the RoI.

Here in UK you are required to serve a six-month probationary period with the gun-club before you are permitted to apply for a firearms licence [FAC]. You must have an FAC BEFORE you acquire any firearm. Probationary membership of a gun club here in UK entitles the probie to shoot any and all the club guns, and, with permission, any gun he or she might be offered by a fellow club member, apart from the so-called long-barrelled revolvers we have on mainlnad UK [not NI].

The type and style of firearm you want to be able to shoot must be decided before you apply, since the licence [FAC], when it is finally granted, will entitle you to acquire only those firearms for which you applied and suitable ammuniton. There is also a mandatory test before the club secretary deems you to be a safe and suitable candidate for an FAC. Remember that here the initial application for an FAC is counter-signed by the club secretary and also accompanied by the opinions of two referees, not connected with the gun club, who have known you for more than two years.

Anything sensible that can lead to the development of a safe shooter is useful, regardless how the rules dictate or suggest that it should be done. both the Irish model and the British model serve to do the same thing.

tac

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

I'd agree - a ballistics course is wildly OTT for a beginner. But for a beginning hunter, there's not much harm in explaining the difference between soft-nose, ballistic-tip, hollow-point and other kinds of ammunition; and how bullet weight is important and so on. And no harm in covering other, basic things as well - there have been cases of new fullbore shooters asking on ranges why they're all over the place on the target, only for the RO to find that the shooter was randomly choosing from two totally different boxes of ammo, with completely different bullet weights....

Stuff like that should be on a beginners course, but you're perfectly correct, a full-blown ballistics course would be inappropriate (apart from being unnecessary, you'd overload the beginner with too much stuff to worry about).

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

Oh no, we have about a half dozen :rolleyes:

There is a proficiency course run by an alliance of some of the deer organisations which is necessary if you wish to hunt deer on state lands. There is no such requirement if you hunt on privately owned land.

CJhaughey

tac foley wrote: »

IF you had a version of the British Deer Society in the RoI this would be a foregone conclusion.

There is, of course, nothing to prevent any of you from attending one of these courses here in UK.

With the long-standing popularity of game shooting in the RoI, I'm surprised that such an organisation doesn't already exist.

As ever, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

tac

We do actually have quite a few associations and societies that deal with deer.
Most come under the umbrella group Deer Alliance.

tac foley

CJhaughey wrote: »

We do actually have quite a few associations and societies that deal with deer.
Most come under the umbrella group Deer Alliance.

That's good to know - do they cover basic ballistcs and ammunition choice as part of the course?

tac

tac foley

rrpc wrote: »

Oh no, we have about a half dozen :rolleyes:

There is a proficiency course run by an alliance of some of the deer organisations which is necessary if you wish to hunt deer on state lands. There is no such requirement if you hunt on privately owned land.

Sir - I asked a serious question since I am completely ignorant of the way that such organisations are set up in the RoI. A look at this site over a period of just a a week would show anybody looking in that the vast majority of shooters here are game shooters, rather than paper-punchers, which led me to my comment in the first place.

Here in UK nobody is allowed to shoot, even on private land, without having proven documentation that they are both fit to do so, and are knowledgeable about what they are actually doing when they squeeze a trigger on a live animal.

tac

rrpc

tac foley wrote: »

That's good to know - do they cover basic ballistcs and ammunition choice as part of the course?

tac

Here you go: http://www.deeralliance.ie/certpro.htm

tac foley

rrpc wrote: »

Here you go: http://www.deeralliance.ie/certpro.htm

Thank you, Sir - that is VERY useful. It is almost exactly the same as the initial course run by the British Deer Society.

Most private land here is owned by people who are themselves shooters, since the ownership of private land big enough to shoot deer on it is comparatively rare on this very crowded island. Those fortunate enough to have such land also have the right to insist that those permitted to shoot on it are as 'deer-shooting' safe as they are.

tac

mightyabhabelle

jap gt wrote: »

did you not do a course to get your firearm

Sorry lads for only getting back now as I see the thread is busy. Yes Jap, I used to shoot and fish when I was a lot younger with my Uncles. The fishing I stayed in touch with but in my area, it was kinda hard to get a legal gun.. Anyway I got back into it and I completed a basic arms and safety course for my shotgun. I apply the same rules for a .22. What I would like to do now is get more into the technicals of rifle shooting. It has me wanting to learn more hence the question. Also I will be talking a few shotgun lessons also but this is to brush up on tecnhique. Once again...DTL isnt so bad but I want to get into the sporting. I also want to move,mount and shoot instead of holding the gun up all the time for clays.

Then armed with all this knowledge I can help pass it on to the next generation... just like the crew here... wont say which generation I am thought but the 80's rocked lol

So thanks for the links... tackleberry I might take you up on the offer and come up and visit the lads... hands on is the best way for me to learn...

thanks M

mightyabhabelle

ok finished reading all the posts again... and thanks for the indepth discussion... as most of you are well experienced... as a newbie... heres what I think I need to learn more of. Yes I can clean, load and fire a gun... I know about firing into wind and the wind behind you. I have seen how the elements can change the tractory of the bullet... ie .. if you zero a gun on a warm day and take it out on a dull day, or raining the rifle will be out... etc etc but ignoring all than... here's what I think I need...

1) Dismantle, clean and rebuild a rifle from top to bottom.
2) Learn the basics of how a rifle works and its history, rim fire, center fire, black power etc lengths of guns, types of guns etc. Differences in calibre..
3) Learn to zero.
4) Learn to zero with the elements
5) Learn to zero with different ammo and work out what is best.
6) Importance of ammo weight and ammon types including custom ammo
7) Ballistics, distance, velocity, point black etc
8) Floating a rifle, boring a rifle, shortening it, adding a new stock, setting up a night scope. Using a moderifier
9) Basic markman ship, how to ly, hold, stand etc with a riffle..
10) Do all this in an hour lol...

Ok I'll leave it at that... but this would be great for me to know and in fairness, thanks to a lot of experienced and generous members on this board, I have learnt so much... so thanks.

As for safety gents... you can buy a bike and head out onto a road without licence or nothing and look how many accidents happen on bikes. In fairness I think our sport is a lot safer thanks to the people in it. Some people get guns for the wrong reasons but those into the sport will respect the sport and people thats in it... imho...

all the best -M

ps... I'm now starting with basic markman ship as a starting point

Tackleberrywho

1) Dismantle, clean and rebuild a rifle from top to bottom. If you buy new there should be a manual, or your RFD SHOULD SHOW YOU
2) Learn the basics of how a rifle works and its history, rim fire, center fire, black power etc lengths of guns, types of guns etc. Differences in calibre..
Chuck Hawkes books are a good starting point.3) Learn to zero. That is better if you have someone with you for the first few times4) Learn to zero with the elements. That is an art form
5) Learn to zero with different ammo and work out what is best. Just buy a few boxes6) Importance of ammo weight and ammon types including custom ammo
7) Ballistics, distance, velocity, point black etc Hornady amongst others do a good chart **based on a 24" barrel average
8) Floating a rifle, boring a rifle, shortening it, adding a new stock, setting up a night scope. Using a moderifier. Most of this should not be attempted by an unskilled person, contact your local rifle builder to float/shorten
9) Basic markmanship, how to lie, hold, stand etc with a rifle.. Go to your nearest range and most guys will be only too happy to show you
10) Do all this in an hour lol... Keep dreaming lol! You will get much faster at most of the stuff in time. Practice makes permenance, permenant practice makes perfect.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

3) Learn to zero. That is better if you have someone with you for the first few times4) Learn to zero with the elements. That is an art form

Actually, for all the learning to zero stuff, the best advice is probably to get yourself to a range. Doing that sort of thing in the field when you're trying to learn for the first time, is not really a great idea. One mistake and you're putting a round downrange with no idea where it's going or how far, and that's a recipe for a disaster.

5) Learn to zero with different ammo and work out what is best. Just buy a few boxes

That's not great advice either to be honest tack.
It's what to do after buying the boxes that he needs to know, and that leads into the idea of shooting groups, which is an important thing for anyone to learn.

8) Floating a rifle, boring a rifle, shortening it, adding a new stock, setting up a night scope. Using a moderifier. Most of this should not be attempted by an unskilled person, contact your local rifle builder to float/shorten

Amen to that.
Seriously, you could do bad things to the rifle or even yourself in the worst case scenario if you mucked up while doing that kind of thing.

Thing is mighty, you don't ever fully learn all this stuff. Not only does it take a year or two to get a solid foundation in place, it's a continual learning process for as long as you're doing it. The day you don't learn something new, is the day you should be checking your pulse or considering not shooting anymore because you're probably no longer paying enough attention to be thought of as safe...

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, for all the learning to zero stuff, the best advice is probably to get yourself to a range. Doing that sort of thing in the field when you're trying to learn for the first time, is not really a great idea. One mistake and you're putting a round downrange with no idea where it's going or how far, and that's a recipe for a disaster.
i said have someone with him (I meant on a range, i should have clarified)
Reading wind is an art. To be good at it takes a long time, to be able to judge a 5mph wind @50 yards is relatively easy, it's when it is windier and the range is longer that it gets complicated

That's not great advice either to be honest tack.
I should have expanded. Fire 5 grops of 5 rounds of each brand, taking time for barrel to cool between each group. (find out what twist rate is your rifle **should be on the website manufacturer** Faster twists can take heavier grain bullets, slower twists work best with lighter grain bullets)
It's what to do after buying the boxes that he needs to know, and that leads into the idea of shooting groups, which is an important thing for anyone to learn.


Amen to that.
Seriously, you could do bad things to the rifle or even yourself in the worst case scenario if you mucked up while doing that kind of thing.

Thing is mighty, you don't ever fully learn all this stuff. Not only does it take a year or two to get a solid foundation in place, it's a continual learning process for as long as you're doing it. The day you don't learn something new, is the day you should be checking your pulse or considering not shooting anymore because you're probably no longer paying enough attention to be thought of as safe...

Practice practice practice, and take tips from others more experienced than you, I have a few guys I can ask for advice when I am snowballed. They always have the answers for me; as they prob had the same problem many times before.

Cass

I really cannot stress the importance of a range.

All the things you need/want to know can be learned/taught by lads on a range, and i'm not talking about 'ould boys smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee while boring you to death with tales of eras gone by. I'm refering to trained, instructed, competent personel that can give you the time, dedication, and most importantly the answers you are looking for.

Best thing about a range is the wide and numerous amount of lads available at one time. God knows i've seen newbies arriving and looking somewhat out of their depth. Sure they can shoot and are safe, but thats it. They have no idea of any of the other topic you mentioned. Within an hour or two they have got talking to 2/3/4 lads and while only a small percentage of what they have been told sinks in the next time they come they are starting from a higher level than previously.

Not to mention you can practise in a safe, controlled environment with fixed/consistant shooting positions and targets. Any variations in results can be put down to the elements rather than " was i holding it the same?", "am i at the same distance from the target?", etc, etc.

mightyabhabelle

Sparks, wise words and much appreciated...
Tack... great little pointers and I will follow up...
Ez... great to learn that I'm not alone...

I have a few posters that have PM'ed me and offered to take me out to show the basics around zeroing and its off to the range then for me...

thanks again... M

Tackleberrywho

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

Sparks, wise words and much appreciated...
Tack... great little pointers and I will follow up...
Ez... great to learn that I'm not alone...

I have a few posters that have PM'ed me and offered to take me out to show the basics around zeroing and its off to the range then for me...

thanks again... M

Thats good to hear!
You can figure out stuff yourself, but it takes often twice as long, a few good pointers and you will get so much faster Zeroing etc.

I notice dCorbus has a bore sighter in the forsale section, this might prove usefull for you, He's looking €55 ono AFAIK, I'm sure if you make him a decent offer it could be yours.

Remember also, everyone had to start somewhere

mightyabhabelle

thanks Tack... but just a quick one on using a bore sight.. is it better for me to learn the manual way first before using a bore sign... so that I Know hows its done and how the process works.... rgds M

ps... well spotted on the sight

CJhaughey

Just remember that using the bore sight method you will adjust the scope in reverse to normal procedure.

Tackleberrywho

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

thanks Tack... but just a quick one on using a bore sight.. is it better for me to learn the manual way first before using a bore sign... so that I Know hows its done and how the process works.... rgds M

ps... well spotted on the sight

It's up to you really, like a GPS after a while when you know where you are going you use it less and less.

It just could make things slightly easier for you.
Some things are gimics others are handy.

It's a personal choice for you, some guys always use them, some never use them.

Cass

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

Ez... great to learn that I'm not alone...

Everybody and i mean everybody started in the same position as yourself. Nobody knows everything going into something.

I was lucky that i had my Father and Grandfather to teach me the basics from an early age. It wasn't until i was 16 or so that rifles started to pique my interest. I joined a range and club and started with an open sight CZ .22lr, and later got a scope. I learned the basics from lads in the clubs and progressed from there.

From then till now i picked the brains of everyone i could asking about rifles, mechanics, workings, safety tips, handling, hold, ammo, calibres, styles, hunting, target work, ranges, clubs. Once i had the info i tried most of it and then filtered out the stuff that didn't work for me. Don't forget that though. What works for others may not work for you so if someone tells you a certain hold is better and after some practise you still cannot improve or get worse try another style.

Its a never ending story though. I'm still learning (or trying to). I keep asking questions, looking for advice, tips, asking for others to watch me shoot to pick up on anything i might be doing wrong. Never dismiss the advantage of having another shooter as a "buddy" whether their level of ability is the same or higher than yours an extra set of eyes is always helpful.

Best of luck.

Tackleberrywho

As Ezri put it so Eliquently everyone started the same.
Everyday is a school day.
I had to develope my own shooting style as I hold a rifle left handed.
I stole some techniques from the target world and adapted it to hunting.
I always have a tight sling on rifles, I use my right elbow (your left) to tighten the sling, I put the palm of my right mand flat under the mag plate on my remmy's.
As a result my off hand shooting is much better these days than when I started.

I try to zero rifles after dinner, as I am more relaxed then and do a better job
I'm always questioning people, hence the redic amount of posts and threads I start to gain knowledge.

I joined the RDF just so I would get more experience of firearms. (not to suit everyone though,personal choice)

I buy more ammo than I need so invariably i shoot more as i am never short of ammo(a major problem in my school & college shooting days )

I try to buy the best ammo and equip I can afford so there are less variables to work on (me & the weather0 as opposed to ammo that won't group well and scopes I can't see the target clearly.

I try to go to the Range as often as i can to pick up even one pointer a day!!

And when i can't go shooting for what ever reason, I go on boards.ie to find out more about my FAVOURITE SUBJECT OF ALL TIME

rrpc

mightyabhabelle wrote: »

thanks Tack... but just a quick one on using a bore sight.. is it better for me to learn the manual way first before using a bore sign... so that I Know hows its done and how the process works.... rgds M

ps... well spotted on the sight

A Bore sight is useful, but not really necessary. Sighting from shot placement teaches you a lot more than using a bore sighter will. For a start it duplicates the 'real world' situation where you may have to adjust for wind which is far easier to do when you're used to adjusting based on shot placement.

You start to learn things like the number of clicks per inch at any given range and it soon becomes second nature.

Sparks

True. But to get him on the paper to start with, just so he can shoot safely, boresighting is a useful technique, whether done the old-fashioned way or with a boresighter.
Last thing you need a new shooter to do is to put rounds downrange without any idea of where they're landing.

I think though that perhaps buying a boresighter to start might not be the best approach; it's just one extra bit of stuff to have to remember. Just pull out the bolt and do it that way, it's not like you're trying to get pinpoint accuracy here anyway, you just want to get onto the paper.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

True. But to get him on the paper to start with, just so he can shoot safely, boresighting is a useful technique, whether done the old-fashioned way or with a boresighter.
Last thing you need a new shooter to do is to put rounds downrange without any idea of where they're landing.

I think though that perhaps buying a boresighter to start might not be the best approach; it's just one extra bit of stuff to have to remember. Just pull out the bolt and do it that way, it's not like you're trying to get pinpoint accuracy here anyway, you just want to get onto the paper.

The only thing I think they can be handy for is setting the cant on the scope.

I am considering using an adj butt plate as I have issue getting the cant 180deg

Anyway, As I advised the chap, it's a personal thing. i believe CliveJ would not be without one, so too several guys i know.

I don't use one, had the loan of one back in my very early days of .22lr.
To get the chap started it might make life a little easier thats all.

A good Bipod and scope may be a better consideration though

sfakiaman

A couple of weeks ago a lad beside me on the range had just put a scope on his new .308 and couldn't get it on paper. He asked me to see if I could spot the bullet strike. I asked him if he had bore sighted the rifle and he had not heard of the process. I explained bore sighting to him and his next shot was only a couple of inches from the bull. Nobody down the range is going to laugh at anyone for asking a question and it sure is cheaper than banging away and hoping for a hit somewhere you can see.