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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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    #872
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The GAA could do WRC numbers a favour if they yield to Galway's demand to move the U21 final against Tipperary from Semple if Limerick was the alternate.


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    #873
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    I don't get how the people in south Wexford will suffer.

    1. They don't use their line so they won't be suffering.
    2. They did very little about it when the money was there as regards campaigning for upgrades or more trains or newer stock etc.

    No matter how its spun Limerick - Galway deserves priority over Rosslare-Waterford based on populations alone.

    I don't get all the begrudgery over a short section of track Ennis-Athenry which was still a useable railway before the rebuild.


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    #874
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    chalk and cheese. the WRC will have a parallel motorway...the Co Wexford Line is the shortest route between an international ferryport and Waterford. It should not suffer in favour of the new-comer.


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    #875
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    corktina wrote: »
    the Co Wexford Line is the shortest route between an international ferryport and Waterford. and beyond
    +1
    Freight alone would make this lines more viable than WRC if the actually accepted freight from all the companies interested


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    #876
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    I don't get how the people in south Wexford will suffer.

    1. They don't use their line so they won't be suffering.
    2. They did very little about it when the money was there as regards campaigning for upgrades or more trains or newer stock etc.

    No matter how its spun Limerick - Galway deserves priority over Rosslare-Waterford based on populations alone.

    I don't get all the begrudgery over a short section of track Ennis-Athenry which was still a useable railway before the rebuild.
    even before the wastage of the wrc the road journey was faster by bus so really this folly should have been torn up and what remained ploughed back into the countryside.


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    #877
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    corktina wrote: »
    chalk and cheese. the WRC will have a parallel motorway...the Co Wexford Line is the shortest route between an international ferryport and Waterford. It should not suffer in favour of the new-comer.

    Have you any numbers for the international ferryport users who use the train?

    I agree it should not have to suffer but how will it suffer if nobody uses it.

    I believe there is a downstream bridge planned for New Ross, should reduce the gap in journey times for all the international ferryport passengers.

    How is Ennis-Athenry a newcomer, the track was probably in a similar condition to what the South Wexford is now before the rebuild.

    From what I can make out they could have reopened it on a shoestring budget as all the work does not seem to have done much for journey times.




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    #878
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    From what I can make out they could have reopened it on a shoestring budget as all the work does not seem to have done much for journey times.




    Those that wanted it open clearly knew nothing about modern railway systems all they wanted was the old train line (their very own toy trainset) opened - no thought was given to the process - ie what kind of service was this nineteenth centural rural rail alignment going to give., why they didn't cut out the Athenry stopover with a loop line connecting to the Dublin Galway line and not bother going into Athenry at all is beyond me. This myth about a "corridor" existing. It does not exist even the term Western Rail Corridor is a complete myth. All the important commercial transport corridors in this country lead to either Dublin or Belfast. get used to it - its called urbanisation of society and has been going on for about 150 years.

    Any important corridors in the modern world run along motorways: which is why in the UK they talk about the M4 corridor, the M3 corridor and in Scotland the M8 corridor. These people need to wake up and smell the roses all supply chain logistics are based on road transport, the west of Ireland needs good rural and intercity bus services running on good roads.

    The date happens to be August 2010 not August 1910.

    The whole thing was total bullsh*t from start to finish.


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    #879
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    Have you any numbers for the international ferryport users who use the train?

    I agree it should not have to suffer but how will it suffer if nobody uses it.

    I believe there is a downstream bridge planned for New Ross, should reduce the gap in journey times for all the international ferryport passengers.

    How is Ennis-Athenry a newcomer, the track was probably in a similar condition to what the South Wexford is now before the rebuild.

    From what I can make out they could have reopened it on a shoestring budget as all the work does not seem to have done much for journey times.




    Oh thats an easy one...NIL or as near as makes no odds.Thats because of IEs policy of running down the line by NOT connecting with the ferries. It doesnt have to be like that.!

    How is Ennis to Athenry NOT a newcomer? Incidentally they DID open it on a shoestring, by keeping all the bends, speed restrictions and of course , the reversal.To cut journey times you would need more passing loops including dynamic ones where trains can pass at full speed (long one in other words) and to ease a lot of the bends (is there any straight track at all? not much anyway!) and to cut off Athenry with a new chord or preferably a new alignment through out. Its a half way house to what was needed ,doomed to fail.


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    #880
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    corktina wrote: »
    Its a half way house to what was needed ,doomed to fail.
    Exactly. A camel instead of a horse, etc.


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    #881
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    How is Ennis to Athenry NOT a newcomer? Incidentally they DID open it on a shoestring, by keeping all the bends, speed restrictions and of course , the reversal.To cut journey times you would need more passing loops including dynamic ones where trains can pass at full speed (long one in other words) and to ease a lot of the bends (is there any straight track at all? not much anyway!) and to cut off Athenry with a new chord or preferably a new alignment through out. Its a half way house to what was needed ,doomed to fail.

    Exactly Corky which is why it is a heap of cr*p, but it was a total appeasement to one foolhardy pressure group, they got what they campaigned for. Of course had they actually campaigned for a high speed intercity train link between Limerick and Galway on a brand new alignmetn they quite rightly would have been laughed out of town - because there is no way that level of capex could be justified to connect these two large towns (AKA cities). The money should have been spent on upgrading the Dublin/Galway line to deliver a real high speed train link to the west and given the rail line a fighting chance against the inter urbans. now the mainlines are in danger of withering on the vine in competition with the new roads, because the necessary work has not been done on mainline arterial routes but at least we have our toy railway in the west.

    Intercity - my ar*e.


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    #882
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    A much improved Galway to Dublin line would have been huge asset to the west of course. I wonder what could have been acheived using the funds spent on the WRC?


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    #883
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    From what I can make out they could have reopened it on a shoestring budget as all the work does not seem to have done much for journey times.
    That shoestring is what the WRC lobbyists claimed was all that was needed to reopen the line. IE quoted higher figures and the lobbyists accused them of highballing it to deny the West its just deserts. People on this board and others warned that a line built to that budget would be slow (i.e. < 70mph) and they were accused of being naysayers, that if we waited and saw the trains would fly along.

    You say the Wexford/Waterford people didn't campaign hard enough. I agree there was a certain lack of activity and it's odd given Cullen being Minister that the SE did fairly poorly railwise during his tenure. It could be that the local authorities were more worried about keeping Waterford airport open. The fact is though that there were certain people associated with western local authorities who put their names to WRC documents who should be facing hard questions about those. They won't though. Why? Because their employers weren't the ones who paid for the new line - central government did.


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    #884
    Propellerhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭Propellerhead


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    even before the wastage of the wrc the road journey was faster by bus so really this folly should have been torn up and what remained ploughed back into the countryside.

    Jesus, don't hold back!

    Mods, can we rename this forum "Teenage Economists ripping the railways a new one" or alternatively "Tod Andrews and Sean Barrett's love child":D


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    #885
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    dowlingm wrote: »
    That shoestring is what the WRC lobbyists claimed was all that was needed to reopen the line. IE quoted higher figures and the lobbyists accused them of highballing it to deny the West its just deserts. People on this board and others warned that a line built to that budget would be slow (i.e. < 70mph) and they were accused of being naysayers, that if we waited and saw the trains would fly along.

    .

    I know these complete t*ssers are always quoting what great value it is on a cost per kilometre against things like Dart Luas and Metro. Well like anything you get cheap in life its not value if it delivers a cr*p service. DW Commuter always said the Athenry Tuam section will also be built cos at 60million its cheap - it too will be claimed to give great value but then we will find out the truth - they asked for a yellow pack railway and that's what they got a yellow pack piece of infrastructure delivering a yellow pack service. Corky to answer your point I don't know what we could have got on the Dublin Galway line for the cost of this folly but it would have done more for IE than the bloody noose that has been hung around their necks with the WRC.


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    #886
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Interesting piece in the Sunday Times yesterday - I can't pull up the article as the ST now charges for articles - and as I buy the dam paper I refuse to pay for it on line as well. some of you may have read it - basically saying it is now faster and cheaper to drive most routes rather than use the intercity rail services. It quoted all the routes from Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo/Belfast and said it was basically cheaper to take the car and quicker.

    Of course the overall cost of having a car on the road has to be taken account of and they also pointed out that IE is going to be introducing ryanair like one cent on line fares.......

    Anway I thought it was interesting to highlight in the context of the WRC cos they never even gave time of day to the Intercity Limerick Galway route - now I wonder why that is!

    However anyone willing to do a comparison....

    Limerick - Galway by train

    By bus

    and by private car ......cost and time comparison.


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    #887
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    westtip wrote: »
    Interesting piece in the Sunday Times yesterday - I can't pull up the article as the ST now charges for articles - and as I buy the dam paper I refuse to pay for it on line as well. some of you may have read it - basically saying it is now faster and cheaper to drive most routes rather than use the intercity rail services. It quoted all the routes from Dublin to Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo/Belfast and said it was basically cheaper to take the car and quicker.

    Of course the overall cost of having a car on the road has to be taken account of and they also pointed out that IE is going to be introducing ryanair like one cent on line fares.......

    Anway I thought it was interesting to highlight in the context of the WRC cos they never even gave time of day to the Intercity Limerick Galway route - now I wonder why that is!

    However anyone willing to do a comparison....

    Limerick - Galway by train

    By bus

    and by private car ......cost and time comparison.
    the stopping bus the 51 is faster quieter and more comfortable and the non stop bus x51 is much faster quieter and more comfortable and both are more frequent than the train.


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    #888
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I reckon the drive is just over an hour these days as well.


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    #889
    Layzehfoo
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Layzehfoo


    Hai guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

    Is there an official boards.ie "close the WRC" group? You guys are so vocal about it, and you're given free range to talk about why you want it closed, it just seems to be the next logical step.

    Best of luck with it if you do.


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    #890
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    You guys are so vocal about it, and you're given free range to talk about why you want it closed,.

    We are given free range to argue about its merits, faults, its crap timetable the fact it may turn out to be the greatest white elephant in irish public transport history etc. Are you suggesting this should not be allowed. We have had enough "issues" about posts re the WRC, some of us are for it some against it some of us just see WOT has actually been allowed to happen is a dogs breakfast and the west would have been better serviced with other transport solutions, so carry on lurking and I am sure most posters look forward to your arguments one way or t'other, but please do join the debate.


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    #891
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Hai guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

    Is there an official boards.ie "close the WRC" group? You guys are so vocal about it, and you're given free range to talk about why you want it closed, it just seems to be the next logical step.

    Best of luck with it if you do.
    if there were real tangible benefits i would sing the praises of the western fail corridor but sadly there are not any that spring to mind!


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    #892
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Hai guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

    Is there an official boards.ie "close the WRC" group? You guys are so vocal about it, and you're given free range to talk about why you want it closed, it just seems to be the next logical step.

    Best of luck with it if you do.

    for myself, it's the waste of taxpayers money that I object to...I actually support the re-opening of lines, but not on a "we want our line back at any cost" basis. The opportunity to make this a good useful line was missed and its what it always was: slow, bendy, takes too long, costs too much, goes the long way round, quicker by bus, MUCH quicker by car etc.

    Read the many hundreds of posts and join in with your opinion. For myself, I don't mind if you don't agree with me so long as you CARE and are prepared to give an honest opinion.


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    #893
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    if there were real tangible benefits i would sing the praises of the western fail corridor but sadly there are not any that spring to mind!

    If numbers reported on various sites (hearsay I know but still) are to believed the overall route itself is doing quite well in terms of passenger uptake, not sure about the individual stops though. So it must have some relavence. (16,000 in the first month alone, and that's not counting Ennis-Limerick) Really it can't be ascertained until official figures are published, and from any published so far it seems that the line is performing quite well in terms of users.

    Yes in an ideal world a brand new, more direct route could have been built, but at what cost?


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    #894
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you cannot say "in the first month alone" as the novelty value will probably mean lower subsequent months than that....


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    #895
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Transportuser09 wrote: »
    If numbers reported on various sites (hearsay I know but still) are to believed the overall route itself is doing quite well in terms of passenger uptake, not sure about the individual stops though. So it must have some relavence. (16,000 in the first month alone, and that's not counting Ennis-Limerick) Really it can't be ascertained until official figures are published, and from any published so far it seems that the line is performing quite well in terms of users.

    Yes in an ideal world a brand new, more direct route could have been built, but at what cost?

    The numbers reported on IRN are crap - hearsay cr*p I know but nevertheless cr*p in particular for the commuting numbers - this line was supposed to be the delivery from evil for commuters south of Athenry into Galway. Athenry commuters already had a line and are not incremental. Commuters have not flocked to use this line - probably because it does not deliver them to where they work: Balybrit, the hospital, the university, out of town retail, schools around the city . WOT have not said a dickiebird since the first euphoria in the first month as reported by the press, which makes me wonder what has happened - the well oiled PR machine would have been releasing press releases week after week if the uptake was that great. - the numbers reported in the first month are the "new restaurant in town syndrom" and did not break out fare paying passengers, and were unclear on the incremental volume (I think) my guess is every free passer in the counties Clare limerick and Galway gave it a go -and BTW a more direct route could have been done with a small loop just south of Athenry to stop the Athenry stopover and join the Dublin - Galway line just west of Athenry - and double tracking into Galway. this could have taken 20 minutes maybe half an hour off the "intercity" journey Limerick Galway. Of course it woudl have broken the magic corridor - the truth is there is no corridor, there are two branch lines - Galway - Ennis and Galway Tuam. The phrase Western Rail corridor is an invention and a myth.

    however here is a thought on the "corridor" in the event of Athenry Tuam being re-opened and Ennis - Athenry - Galway already in modus operandi - will the schedule then be changed so there are corridor trains running from Tuam to Limerick with Galway passengers changing at Athenry - you see with single track into Galway its going to get awful tight there - now if Limerick/Ennis passengers have to get off the "corridor" trains at Athenry and change (on what is an already 2 hour journey) how will they feel - or will corridor passenger have to change at Athenry whilst the northern branch line train goes into Galway and Souther branch line trains go into Galway - woudl this make Athenry the new Clapham juncton of the irish rail system......I really cannot imagine much demand for Limerick Tuam as a through route...Or maybe if you do want to do Limerick Tuam - you wil take the train to Athenry - the driver will get out and do the turn round - take you into Galway, then driver gets out and takes you out of Galway back to Athenry then up to Tuam - Craughwell Tuam could take about two and a half hours.....As I said its not a corridor its a T junction.

    I can't wait to see what is suggested for this conundrum!!! hilarious stuff, they couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag.


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    #896
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    corktina wrote: »
    you cannot say "in the first month alone" as the novelty value will probably mean lower subsequent months than that....

    Of course, but I haven't seen any reports to the contrary either. I'm sure numbers where naturally higher when the line was novelty, but it doesn't mean it was unsuccessful thereafter either. Truly, until official figures are obtained it's hard to confirm one way or the other.


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    #897
    Propellerhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭Propellerhead


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Hai guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

    Is there an official boards.ie "close the WRC" group? You guys are so vocal about it, and you're given free range to talk about why you want it closed, it just seems to be the next logical step.

    Best of luck with it if you do.

    Yeah, it smells like the stale demon seed of Tod Andrews in here most of the time. Perhaps when all the lines, not just Limerick - Galway, are binned and everyone, grannies and all, are fecked out on to the roads then we shall see just how pleased they are then.

    I'd rather lick my own armpits than ever travel long distance on a bus ever again in this shambles of a country.


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    #898
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    westtip wrote: »
    The numbers reported on IRN are crap - hearsay cr*p I know but nevertheless cr*p in particular for the commuting numbers

    It's not just IRN (which is as valid as any site given that anyone can post with out citation on all message board sites, can one prove they are 'crap'), poster on this and other sites have reported well filled trains, I've also heard it from several individual passengers.
    westtip wrote: »
    my guess is every free passer in the counties Clare limerick and Galway gave it a go

    That's only a guess at the end of the day. And passengers on SW passes are passengers all the same, IÉ still gets paid.
    westtip wrote: »
    -and BTW a more direct route could have been done with a small loop just south of Athenry to stop the Athenry stopover and join the Dublin - Galway line just west of Athenry - and double tracking into Galway. this could have taken 20 minutes maybe half an hour off the "intercity" journey Limerick Galway.

    A loop such as that you describe might well have been a useful feature, although if connections where timetabled properly Athenry would in theory serve as a useful interchange point for those travelling from intermediate WRC stations eastward along the Galway-Dublin line.

    Still, such a loop could indeed be useful, perhaps the service could be a mixture of express peak time trains and ones serving Athenry to connect with Dublin services. The question is though would the cost of a new track bed (short though it might be) be justified considering the frequency is never going to be extremely high (compared to trains using the Cork line).

    And would it really save 20 minutes on journey times? As it stands the wait in Athenry usually no more than four minutes, in some cases less, even if you factor in the run into the station and out again from the junction point I doubt 20 minutes are added to the journey.

    I agree on the potential double-tracking the line into Galway would give to improved services, but at this stage where would the money come from.
    westtip wrote: »
    however here is a thought on the "corridor" in the event of Athenry Tuam being re-opened and Ennis - Athenry - Galway already in modus operandi - will the schedule then be changed so there are corridor trains running from Tuam to Limerick with Galway passengers changing at Athenry - you see with single track into Galway its going to get awful tight there - now if Limerick/Ennis passengers have to get off the "corridor" trains at Athenry and change (on what is an already 2 hour journey) how will they feel - or will corridor passenger have to change at Athenry whilst the northern branch line train goes into Galway and Souther branch line trains go into Galway - woudl this make Athenry the new Clapham juncton of the irish rail system......I really cannot imagine much demand for Limerick Tuam as a through route...Or maybe if you do want to do Limerick Tuam - you wil take the train to Athenry - the driver will get out and do the turn round - take you into Galway, then driver gets out and takes you out of Galway back to Athenry then up to Tuam - Craughwell Tuam could take about two and a half hours.....As I said its not a corridor its a T junction.

    I see what you mean, I too doubt that there woudl be much through traffic from Tuam to Limerick. And having to change trains isn't going to appeal to passengers when they can get a direct bus/drive. It strenghtens the case for doubling the line into Galway, but as mentioned above the money isn't there at the moment. At least though, it provides a framework for future development.


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    #899
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Transportuser09 wrote: »
    It's not just IRN (which is as valid as any site given that anyone can post with out citation on all message board sites, can one prove they are 'crap'), poster on this and other sites have reported well filled trains, I've also heard it from several individual passengers.
    .

    I wasn't saying the post on IRN was "crap" it was what I picked up on an observation on IRN that the figures using the commuter services were crap - as in very low and very worrying (if you are a committed and signed up card carrying WOT member that is).

    Don't get me wrong on this whole WRC venture I am with Corky in his sentiments above - I just think this project has been very ill conceived from day one, and I will not be happy when all trains cease to run and we all jump in our cars as one poster has mentioned above, (Propellorhead your post is somewhat bemusing and btw the grannies can still get a bus for free). Fast moving well managed train services are great to move high volumes of people between meaningful centres of population - the WRC had its day - probably about 1925 it would have been at its peak - the rebuilding of a C19th realignment in a sparcely populated part of the country in a country that totally relies on roads for supply chain logistics , and spare me the green rubbish - when was the last time the Irish independent Times or Star, a or a loaf of bread or barrel of guinness came out west on the train - so spare me that sob story "those days are over, and in the past they shall remain". The WRC was just not meaningful and totally unjustified and has absolutely nothing to do with balanced regional development, I doubt apart from the construction phase, the maintenance and drivers whether the WRC has been responsible for creating one job in the region - pray tell me what companies have set up here as a result of it opening???? answers on a postcard please - ie none.

    It was all about the politics of envy Dublins got the Dart we want the corridor. complete and utter bollox.


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    #900
    Pete2k
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭Pete2k


    I would imagine that should Athenry-Tuam go ahead then a passing loop (and station) will have been built in Oranmore by that stage. You could also have a train from Tuam and a train from Limerick merge in Athenry similar to what the Galway/Westport trains are doing in Athlone now.


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    #901
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    westtip wrote: »
    I wasn't saying the post on IRN was "crap" it was what I picked up on an observation on IRN that the figures using the commuter services were crap - as in very low and very worrying (if you are a committed and signed up card carrying WOT member that is).

    Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant.


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