"We are a Catholic country"

PeterIanStaker · 27-08-2010 12:57PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

There is no evidence to support his existence.He's not there.And if he was, he died for his sins, not mine.

Religion is a root of evil as far as I'm concerned and there is a mountain of evidence to back that claim up.

Prove your god to me.You can't.Because if you attempt to prove it you lose your faith.Faith is what it's all about in religion.Blind faith.

I doubt this person is a suicide bomber either, just a rational person who has hit the nail on the head with this post. The fact that it has provoked a defensive reaction says a great deal.

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 01:00PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Im not a practising religious person, I was baptised communed and confirmed so i guess technically im a catholic like 70% or so of this country. so i would say we are a catholic country.

Just like if asked what language do we speak in ireland i would say english and i would not feel the need to begin a rant about how mean the english were and 800 years and my ancestors died casue they had no spuds. damn them english an all that

And therein lies the problem. Catholic is just birth badge for most people. some bloke poured a bit of water over me head while i was a kid and therefore im a catholic. Dont go to mass, dont believe in God etc but catholic.

That would be absolutely no harm if it didnt give the RCC power to stay running our schools and claim influence on our society.

Catholicism is a religion and more importantly a hierarchical fraternity of wierdos. not just something on your birth cert

philologos · 27-08-2010 01:02PM

BTW, Misanthrope - You never told me, did you use either The Reason Project, or the Skeptics Annotated Bible to get those quotes from (accept the interpretation of either source without thought), or did you read the Bible for yourself (critical thinking)?

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 01:37PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Josephus, Tactius, Pliny the Younger, Lucretius, the Babylonian Talmud, amongst other non-Christian sources back up the existence of Jesus, as a figure that died under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Caesar Tiberius. Most likely on the current site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre according to later historians such as Eusebius who wrote a church history from the first to the fourth century.

In fairness most of those sources are talking about christians, and if they mention christ then it is describing the person worshiped by christians. They do not count as independant verification.

But. It is very difficult to prove that someone did or didnt exist from that time who was not a roman aristocrat. As far as im aware there were no records kept of crucifictions in judea, nor is there any coppies of the census conducted by tacitus. personally i dont think it is important

27-08-2010 01:41PM

Pace2008 wrote: »

The bit about the big donkey dicks is still funny, though.

Someone is always quoting a section where a lucky woman was so beloved of god that he made her husband a lot more well endowed.
Can't find where it is though so I'd be grateful if anyone finds it!

PeterIanStaker · 27-08-2010 01:45PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Someone is always quoting a section where a lucky woman was so beloved of god that he made her husband a lot more well endowed.
Can't find where it is though so I'd be grateful if anyone finds it!

Is that the biblical equivalent of spam?

"I hath grown my man's member four cubits - clicketh ye here to findeth out how"

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 01:45PM

Jakkass wrote: »

BTW, Misanthrope - You never told me, did you use either The Reason Project, or the Skeptics Annotated Bible to get those quotes from (accept the interpretation of either source without thought), or did you read the Bible for yourself (critical thinking)?

I got some here....... http://www.biblegateway.com

and here.............. http://www.christiananswers.net

There was another site but I can remember.I can't believe I never heard of the Sceptics Annotated Bible before.

I have read certain passages from KJV, and had more read to me.I rarely remember them correctly.

I'd be far less familiar with the New Testament though than the Old, as my grandmother was an evangelical, though I was baptised CoI and grew up in a predominantly RCC environment.
I've had it from all angles and I think it's all tripe.
I decided there was no god at around age 8 or 9
It was a gradual dawning rather than a Eureka moment.

I must have read 2/3rds of kjv, which is ,I'd guess, about 3/6ths more than most 'believers',and I can see no proof of anything on it.Might as well be reading Harry Potter and worshipping the moon like my ancient ancestors before they were forcibly converted to worshipping another false god.All gods are false.Religion is blasphemy.That's my view.

philologos · 27-08-2010 01:47PM

sensibleken wrote: »

In fairness most of those sources are talking about christians, and if they mention christ then it is describing the person worshiped by christians. They do not count as independant verification.

But. It is very difficult to prove that someone did or didnt exist from that time who was not a roman aristocrat. As far as im aware there were no records kept of crucifictions in judea, nor is there any coppies of the census conducted by tacitus. personally i dont think it is important

Josephus makes clear reference to Jesus as being the brother of James the Righteous (the brother of Christ) who was put to death by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem in Book 20 of the Jewish Antiquities. That's a very particular claim for someone who didn't exist, indeed it also backs up the Bible.

The Babylonian Talmud refers to Jesus as having been crucified on the eve of Passover. Of course the aim of the Talmud in respect to Jesus is to discredit Him as a heretic, and indeed that he deserved to die for blasphemy. Of course it isn't the main aim of the Talmud which is a huge 10,000 page document on the details of Jewish living.

These certainly do exist.

If people are seriously claiming that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist, all they need to do is look at the evidence.

Jimmy Bottlehead · 27-08-2010 01:50PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Josephus makes clear reference to Jesus as being the brother of James the Righteous (the brother of Christ) who was put to death by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem in Book 20 of the Jewish Antiquities. That's a very particular claim for someone who didn't exist, indeed it also backs up the Bible.

The Babylonian Talmud refers to Jesus as having been crucified on the eve of Passover. Of course the aim of the Talmud in respect to Jesus is to discredit Him as a heretic, and indeed that he deserved to die for blasphemy. Of course it isn't the main aim of the Talmud which is a huge 10,000 page document on the details of Jewish living.

These certainly do exist.

If people are seriously claiming that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist, all they need to do is look at the evidence.

This bears an uncanny resemblance to what Lord of the Rings fangroups are like, arguing the different points of elvish and dwarven language, culture, and so forth.

Both equal amounts of evidence for existing too, except LOTR made for awesome reading and not too much real-world war and bloodshed.

philologos · 27-08-2010 01:52PM

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

This bears an uncanny resemblance to what Lord of the Rings fangroups are like, arguing the different points of elvish and dwarven language, culture, and so forth.

Both equal amounts of evidence for existing too, except LOTR made for awesome reading and not too much real-world war and bloodshed.

Absolute nonsense. These texts are from historians. Unless you wish to consider the history of WW2 to be fiction that is.

27-08-2010 02:17PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Religion is a root of evil as far as I'm concerned and there is a mountain of evidence to back that claim up.

Thats quite a big claim to make there on behalf of religion, can you give me some of the evidence that led you to this discovery?

Ash.J.Williams · 27-08-2010 02:27PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thats quite a big claim to make there on behalf of religion, can you give me some of the evidence that led you to this discovery?

Ritual sacrifice
Sexual abuse
Land grabbing
Mental torture
Murder

Probably more to do with the times, but there was quite a lot of evil associated with religion over the years. More to do with people having power than religion itself.

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 02:50PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Josephus makes clear reference to Jesus as being the brother of James the Righteous (the brother of Christ) who was put to death by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem in Book 20 of the Jewish Antiquities. That's a very particular claim for someone who didn't exist, indeed it also backs up the Bible.

The Babylonian Talmud refers to Jesus as having been crucified on the eve of Passover. Of course the aim of the Talmud in respect to Jesus is to discredit Him as a heretic, and indeed that he deserved to die for blasphemy. Of course it isn't the main aim of the Talmud which is a huge 10,000 page document on the details of Jewish living.

These certainly do exist.

If people are seriously claiming that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist, all they need to do is look at the evidence.

Im not dispuing the historicity of jesus. the josephus writtings are controversial. There is agreement that some of it was tampered with by later scholars but the extent of which is debated

The babylonian talmud is a possible reference, but it refers to a Yeshu being hung on the eve of passover for practicing magic, and him having 5 diciples not 12.

This was written nearly 2 centuries after death and could just as easily be based on the belief of christians. or about someone entirely different

philologos · 27-08-2010 02:57PM

sensibleken wrote: »

Im not dispuing the historicity of jesus. the josephus writtings are controversial. There is agreement that some of it was tampered with by later scholars but the extent of which is debated

Agreed. This is why I didn't use the reference concerning Jesus' ministry from Josephus, but rather the reference associating him to James the Righteous.

sensibleken wrote: »

The babylonian talmud is a possible reference, but it refers to a Yeshu being hung on the eve of passover for practicing magic, and him having 5 diciples not 12.

Interesting. Do you have reference?

sensibleken wrote: »

This was written nearly 2 centuries after death and could just as easily be based on the belief of christians. or about someone entirely different

Agreed, but if Jesus didn't actually exist surely the best Jewish argument would be to point out the lack of evidence, rather than go for His character.

By the by, that's only 1 source out of the whole list I gave.

Edit: The existence of John the Baptist amongst other figures and events described in the New Testament are also mentioned in Josephus' Jewish Antiquities.

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 03:23PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Agreed. This is why I didn't use the reference concerning Jesus' ministry from Josephus, but rather the reference associating him to James the Righteous.

Interesting. Do you have reference?

Agreed, but if Jesus didn't actually exist surely the best Jewish argument would be to point out the lack of evidence, rather than go for His character.

By the by, that's only 1 source out of the whole list I gave.

Edit: The existence of John the Baptist amongst other figures and events described in the New Testament are also mentioned in Josephus' Jewish Antiquities.

The reference in the Talmud to Yeshu haveing 5 disciples is here
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_43.html
i cant find an original at the moment

That would be the best jewish arguement. but who knows their motives? Jews do believe jesus existed but that he was not the messiah.

Tacitus is talking simply about Nero blaming the christians, and the christians were followers of a 'christus' in Judea. this again was written 100 years after jesus

Pliny the younger is also writting about christians rather than christ around the same time as tacitus.

Im not familiar with lucretius.

Seutonius is sometimes credited with mentioning Chrestus, but it is not certain that hes talking about the same guy as he refers to a jewish uprising during claudius' reign.

The fact that all of these references come from after Jesus, they could easily have been based on testimony of christians. It doesn't prove the existance of jesus in the same way as some letter from pilate saying 'these lads overhere are going mad over this bloke called jesus' would. but they still are valuable references.

EDIT: missed the bit about john the baptist. ill have to look at that seperately.

There is a general problem with ancient histories of the period. Even if we look at Heroditus or Leabhar Gabhala Eireann histories are often constructed from stories, unverified or referenced as these came much later. There is an awful lot of picking through what is fanciful rumour and what is fact in these writtings

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 04:16PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thats quite a big claim to make there on behalf of religion, can you give me some of the evidence that led you to this discovery?

Here's the tip of an iceberg

RCC Systematic child sex abuse worldwide
Spanish Inquisition
Collusion with Nazis WW2,fuelled anti-semitism,
Holy Roman Empire
Templar Knights
Supression of science, Gallileo and Copernicus

Anglican Allowed persecution of Catholics in Britain and Ireland.

US Evangelical Fraud and embezzlement
Ripping off the sick,the poor,the weak and the old

1 List of Christian evangelists involved in scandals

Muslims Shia waring against Sunni
Taliban etc

Jim Jones Jonestown Massacre

Pilgrims Salem Witch Trials

philologos · 27-08-2010 04:20PM

Misanthrope - Identifying a number of fringe cases surely isn't enough to say that belief is inherently evil. Does the average believer act towards you in an evil manner? Yes or no?

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 04:35PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Agreed. This is why I didn't use the reference concerning Jesus' ministry from Josephus, but rather the reference associating him to James the Righteous.

Interesting. Do you have reference?

Agreed, but if Jesus didn't actually exist surely the best Jewish argument would be to point out the lack of evidence, rather than go for His character.

By the by, that's only 1 source out of the whole list I gave.

Edit: The existence of John the Baptist amongst other figures and events described in the New Testament are also mentioned in Josephus' Jewish Antiquities.

Have you ever heard of Horus?The Egyptian Jesus?

Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. - Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. - Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. - Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. - Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed

27-08-2010 04:36PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Here's the tip of an iceberg

I have found a much more common denominator between all those examples than just religion and one that is more likely the cause of all the problems.

Its humans in each situation humans have enforced upon others their rules and pain.

The two world wars were mainly fought by christians against each other so i dont think religion was big at play there.

What about Stalin and what happened in communist russia i think he was anti religion.

Another example to look at might be communist China and how it deals with people who do not follow its beliefs i also believe they are anti religion.

rgt320q · 27-08-2010 04:45PM

Religion: the greatest of ways for humans to absolve themselves of all responsibility for acting like complete cunts to one another.

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 04:48PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Misanthrope - Identifying a number of fringe cases surely isn't enough to say that belief is inherently evil. Does the average believer act towards you in an evil manner? Yes or no?

"Fringe" cases ???That is an extremely flippant categorisation of the atrocities listed.Do you not see how that would be an insult to the victims of brutal savage torture and rape, so many of whom live in Ireland?

In all fairness I don't think anything I listed as done by the RCC is a fringe case.

The Spanish Inquisition went on from 1478 to 1834.
356 years of institutionalised terror and torture endorsed right from the top by Lucius III.Hardly a fringe case.

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 04:54PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The two world wars were mainly fought by christians against each other so i dont think religion was big at play there.

That's very ironic.They were nearly all Christians but none of them could remember the 6th Commandment.I wonder how many more commandments they forgot during the war?

Can you see the hypocrisy?

Yup clearly religion wasn't big at play there.More like it got ditched.

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 04:56PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Have you ever heard of Horus?The Egyptian Jesus?

Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. - Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. - Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. - Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. - Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed

1.Horus was the son of Isis who made a gold phalus from her husband osiris' body to impregnate herself. hardly the manger story. she was not a virgin

2.whos this seph character, do you have a reference? are you thinking of set, who was horus enemy as he killed his father. or perhaps geb who is osiris' father. either way similarity in names between diferent languages is meaningless

3. as is prince philip?

4.do you have a reference for this. note the zeitgeist movie is not a reference

philologos · 27-08-2010 04:57PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

"Fringe" cases ???That is an extremely flippant categorisation of the atrocities listed.Do you not see how that would be an insult to the victims of brutal savage torture and rape, so many of whom live in Ireland

It isn't at all. These aren't in any way representative of the majority of believers. As such they are fringe cases.

Misanthrope wrote: »

The Spanish Inquisition went on from 1478 to 1834.
356 years of institutionalised terror and torture endorsed right from the top by Lucius III.Hardly a fringe case.

And had much more to do with control and power, than with the Gospel, or with the Christian faith.

I guess if one is a believer, and reading your arguments, they can take a deep breath and realise that 1) these things aren't in any way representative of their actual beliefs, 2) these things don't involve them, and 3) the vast majority of belief doesn't entail such acts.

I'm glad, I can keep being who I am without hindrance.

Manic Preacher · 27-08-2010 05:02PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

@Manic Preacher: 30 years? I hope its sooner than that, simply because the RCC is great at shooting itself in the foot, hopefully 10 years. Having said that, you may be right, as there are a lot of stupid people here.

Yeah Peter, I'd love to see the church wiped out in the morning but I think it will take the best part of 30 years and you point out exactly why, a lot of stupid people here!

philologos · 27-08-2010 05:10PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Have you ever heard of Horus?The Egyptian Jesus?

Some parallels between Horus and Jesus Christ:

1. Horus born of a virgin. - Jesus born of a virgin.

2. The foster father of Horus was Seb or Seph. - Jesus was fostered by Joseph.

3. Horus was of royal descent. - Jesus was of royal descent.

4. Horus birth accompanied by three solar deities [star gazers] who followed by the morning star of Sirius bearing gifts. - Jesus birth accompanied by three wise men [Zoroastrian star gazers] who followed

You've been watching Zeitgeist? - You realise that was thoroughly debunked years ago?

Even Skeptics Magazine criticised it heavily:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-25/#feature

You'd think if these arguments were useful, that Skeptics Magazine would have been the first to praise them!

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 05:20PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I have found a much more common denominator between all those examples than just religion and one that is more likely the cause of all the problems.

Its humans in each situation humans have enforced upon others their rules and pain.

The two world wars were mainly fought by christians against each other so i dont think religion was big at play there.

What about Stalin and what happened in communist russia i think he was anti religion.

Another example to look at might be communist China and how it deals with people who do not follow its beliefs i also believe they are anti religion.

That's your catholic guilt complex shining through.It's been drilled into your head since you could talk, that you and all other humans are inherently morally flawed.

This Original Sin BS is a mental padlock.

You didn't commit any sin before ,during and for quite some time after your birth.

You had neither the physical nor the cognitive ability to commit sin.

We maybe born in a wide range of physical variations, advantages and defects, sometimes defects that cripple the mind.It can be a lottery sometimes.

But one thing I am certain of is that we are all born morally PURE.Beyond that we are products of environment,experience and circumstance.

If we use common sense,ethics,and plain old decency to mould our environment,enhance our experiences and better our circumstances, we can flourish in a way that religion will never allow.

That might sound like candycoated idealism to some but it's a far more inspiring goal than having to trudge through this theocratic distopia any further.

You don't need a god to be good.Just be good.
You don't know that life is eternal.Maybe this is it, a century if you're very lucky.And just in case ithat is the case, instead of fussing over god and his prayers and rituals and conditions just be good............. just for the sake of goodness.

sensibleken · 27-08-2010 05:31PM

Misanthrope i think your missing the arguements made.

Jakkass was citing non biblical accounts of jesus and you cited similarities with horus, which are false and not related to what jakkass said.

then robbie made the arguement that the common denominator in the actions you quoted were power hungry humans, to which you acused him of haveing catholic guilt. i dont think these are related.

Jev/N · 27-08-2010 06:01PM

sasser wrote: »

Another discussion about religion on Ray Darcy, and some fool texted in saying “We are a Catholic country”. I have heard this a lot recently and it drives me INSANE. We are not a Catholic country, we are a REPUBLIC. A country doesn’t have a religion anyway, but we are a REPUBLIC!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Read Bunreacht na hÉireann; we may not be Catholic but we are a Christian country, it's all over the constitution.

Secondly, the majority of the country would have some form of Roman Catholic upbringing, thus it's a still Catholic country - it's a generalisation, of course, but everyone makes plenty of those all the time. References to the Middle East perhaps?

Also, while we are technically a Republic, is doesn't say so in the Constitution... only in an Act published more than a decade later.

edit: Personally, I think most or all references to religion (other than protection of the right to practice religion) should be removed from the Constitution but that's awhile away yet I'd say

Misanthrope · 27-08-2010 06:09PM

sensibleken wrote: »

Misanthrope i think your missing the arguements made.

Jakkass was citing non biblical accounts of jesus and you cited similarities with horus, which are false and not related to what jakkass said.

then robbie made the arguement that the common denominator in the actions you quoted were power hungry humans, to which you acused him of haveing catholic guilt. i dont think these are related.

First of all I just used the quote button by mistake.Didn't mean it.Sorry for the confusion.I was trying to illustrate the point that the Jesus story is predated by an near identical Egyptian version, (which is itself predated by a very similar tale).
The stories all centre around the same solar patterns.Sun worsip is what it is.And you're saying that is false?

As for what Robbie said, Robbie attempted to exonerate religion of any responsibility and lay the blame on man.

This is borne out of the fact that through the concept of original sin,he has been convinced that he bore innate guilt.Sure it was washed miraculously away at baptism.
But it was drilled into his head subsequently through religious education at school,or at home or through peers, that he had this sin and the accompanying guilt.

Confessions help nurture the guilt complex............ baring your soul to a man who maybe a child rapist, but who has authority and power in the community.

He knows what you did.Even though you were forgiven, he knows.The guilt is still there deep down.

Did you tell him everything?????If you didn't,you just sinned......... in Gods house...... more guilt.

Now you've got to confess to a dishonest confession.If you don't, it's a sin

If you do,now he knows even more of your sins and there's the guilt again

This is no way to live.It's living on your knees.

Next you assume that everyone has this sin/guilt complex and take a lower view of your fellow creatures and a higher view of the god who is never there?

Then you start blaming your fellow man for the things that disgust you, much like Robbie did back there.

I'm not saying there aren't morally and ethical corrupted monsters out there, but the tyrants need a system, a framework and it is religion or more precisely Organised Religion

You can say my examples were all the work of bad men,but the religious denominator is just as common to all of them .

If religion is so good why can it not eradicate the perpetrators of injustice that operate from within it?

"We are a Catholic country"

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