When & How could there be a united Ireland?

oscarBravo · 05-07-2010 11:10PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

? Why would I want that? I meant just for Ulster would be my compromise that I would think about, ie joint between king and queen, within a federal republic.

Basically just have the queen involved somehow.

So basically, what we've already got, except that Dublin has a little more say and the President is nominally a joint head of state?

It's an... interesting idea, with the distinct advantage that you haven't a hope in hell of selling it to either community.

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:12PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

So basically, what we've already got, except that Dublin has a little more say and the President is nominally a joint head of state?

It's an... interesting idea, with the distinct advantage that you haven't a hope in hell of selling it to either community.

No, and I said I would think about it....

Take the federal republic.
Add the queen as a joint figurehead in the north.

karma_ · 05-07-2010 11:13PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No, and I said I would think about it....

Take the federal republic.
Add the queen as a joint figurehead in the north.

Can't really be having a monarch as the figurehead of a Republic

trapsagenius · 05-07-2010 11:14PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

and/or how the Unionist vote has fragmented.

Still we cant assume that electoral trends are always continuous or irreversible

Indeed.But if things do continue like they are going now, which it is looking like they will, nationalists will be in the majority at some point.

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:14PM

karma_ wrote: »

Can't really be having a monarch as the figurehead of a Republic

I know, you cant say I am not trying here..... but I like your compromise more though, even i don't accept my own. At least I am trying.

lugha · 05-07-2010 11:18PM

trapsagenius wrote: »

Indeed.But if things do continue like they are going now, which it is looking like they will, nationalists will be in the majority at some point.

Perhaps. But you don't want to assume that all nationalists will opt for a UI. I suspect if and when a referendum comes, a degree of realism will set in, and people will vote according to whatever serves their interests (often lowly bread and butter ones) best. Which is really how people should always make political decisions.

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:20PM

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps. But you don't want to assume that all nationalists will opt for a UI. I suspect if and when a referendum comes, a degree of realism will set in, and people will vote according to whatever serves their interests (often lowly bread and butter ones) best. Which is really how people should always make political decisions.

I reckon they will vote for a UI. If they were able to be bought it would have been done by now. You can dress up a prison anyway you want, its still a prison, so to say.

trapsagenius · 05-07-2010 11:20PM

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps. But you don't want to assume that all nationalists will opt for a UI. I suspect if and when a referendum comes, a degree of realism will set in, and people will vote according to whatever serves their interests (often lowly bread and butter ones) best. Which is really how people should always make political decisions.

I disagree.I think that it is a desire for a UI is what defines them as nationalists and that they would therefore vote in favour of a UI, if and when such a referendum is held.

karma_ · 05-07-2010 11:22PM

Indeed, surely a Nationalist who desires to remain with the Union would be a Unionist?

lugha · 05-07-2010 11:27PM

trapsagenius wrote: »

I disagree.I think that is a desire for a UI is what defines them as nationalists and that they would therefore vote in favour of a UI, if and when such a referendum is held.

Not necessarily. FF and FG are nominally nationalists parties whom I have voted for in the past, as I had no alternative that appealed to me. And I imagine that you gather that I am not all that keen on a united Ireland. :pac:
Do you really thing that every "nationalist" who is availing of a decent NHS would happily throw themselves at the mercy of what we have going on down here, all for an misty-eyed ideal?

karma_ · 05-07-2010 11:29PM

lugha wrote: »

Not necessarily. FF and FG are nominally nationalists parties whom I have voted for in the past, as I had no alternative that appealed to me. And I imagine that you gather that I am not all that keen on a united Ireland. :pac:
Do you really thing that every "nationalist" who is availing of a decent NHS would happily throw themselves at the mercy of what we have going on down here, all for an misty-eyed ideal?

Don't you worry, soon as we are there, changes will be afoot

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:30PM

lugha wrote: »

Not necessarily. FF and FG are nominally nationalists parties whom I have voted for in the past, as I had no alternative that appealed to me. And I imagine that you gather that I am not all that keen on a united Ireland. :pac:
Do you really thing that every "nationalist" who is availing of a decent NHS would happily throw themselves at the mercy of what we have going on down here, all for an misty-eyed ideal?

Its not misty eyed at all. I can see how you might think for southern republicans it is, but in the north it is a reality. And yes. They could show us how to fix ours, thats what all this is about, benefiting mutually.

lugha · 05-07-2010 11:30PM

karma_ wrote: »

Don't you worry, soon as we are there, changes will be afoot

What? You mean you'll thrash it so that it is as bad as ours? :pac:

trapsagenius · 05-07-2010 11:31PM

lugha wrote: »

Not necessarily. FF and FG are nominally nationalists parties whom I have voted for in the past, as I had no alternative that appealed to me. And I imagine that you gather that I am not all that keen on a united Ireland. :pac:

Really??I never would have guessed!;):pac:

lugha wrote: »

Do you really thing that every "nationalist" who is availing of a decent NHS would happily throw themselves at the mercy of what we have going on down here, all for an misty-eyed ideal?

I do think that, yes, the nationalists would still vote for a UI.Most of them will simply "let their heart rule their head", as you might see it. Emotive attraction to something is often more powerful than what others might see as more "rational" grounds.

P. Breathnach · 05-07-2010 11:32PM

karma_ wrote: »

Indeed, surely a Nationalist who desires to remain with the Union would be a Unionist?

People have a remarkable capacity for adapting and (as we can see in this thread) for avoiding difficult questions.

Some people in NI identify with Ireland, and would allow themselves to be understood to be nationalists. But it's a sentimental attachment, and might not go so far as to voting in favour of the unification of Ireland.

Then we have a group for whom nationalism means little more than a dislike of unionism, particularly in its uglier manifestations. They might not want a united Ireland, but simply a Northern Ireland that works better for them.

In sum, I do not think you can count every vote cast for a nationalist candidate as being a vote for a united Ireland.

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:35PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

People have a remarkable capacity for adapting and (as we can see in this thread) for avoiding difficult questions.

Some people in NI identify with Ireland, and would allow themselves to be understood to be nationalists. But it's a sentimental attachment, and might not go so far as to voting in favour of the unification of Ireland.

Then we have a group for whom nationalism means little more than a dislike of unionism, particularly in its uglier manifestations. They might not want a united Ireland, but simply a Northern Ireland that works better for them.

In sum, I do not think you can count every vote cast for a nationalist candidate as being a vote for a united Ireland.

Every vote for a party with such a clearly defined and promoted aim such as a united Ireland must be taken as a vote for a UI.

Thats rubbish tbh. So they are voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want? Head in sand.

lugha · 05-07-2010 11:35PM

trapsagenius wrote: »

Most of them will simply "let their heart rule their head", as you might see it. Emotive attraction to something is often more powerful than what others might see as more "rational" grounds.

Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. In a couple of lines you neatly present the fallacy of the united Ireland project.

trapsagenius · 05-07-2010 11:37PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

People have a remarkable capacity for adapting and (as we can see in this thread) for avoiding difficult questions.

Some people in NI identify with Ireland, and would allow themselves to be understood to be nationalists. But it's a sentimental attachment, and might not go so far as to voting in favour of the unification of Ireland.

Then we have a group for whom nationalism means little more than a dislike of unionism, particularly in its uglier manifestations. They might not want a united Ireland, but simply a Northern Ireland that works better for them.

In sum, I do not think you can count every vote cast for a nationalist candidate as being a vote for a united Ireland.

Come off it.People who vote for nationalist parties are nationalists.End of.

trapsagenius · 05-07-2010 11:39PM

lugha wrote: »

Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. In a couple of lines you neatly present the fallacy of the united Ireland project.

Well I see it as the beauty of it, but that's another matter.;)

lugha · 05-07-2010 11:43PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Thats rubbish tbh. So they are voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want? Head in sand.

All the main political parties in the South are pro-EU and have always support the various referenda over the years including Nice (x 2) and Lisbon (x 2). And yet there were sizable numbers of people (more than half on two occasions) who were clearly "voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want" The aspirations of a voter and the party for which he votes are only ever going to partially overlap.

P. Breathnach · 05-07-2010 11:52PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Every vote for a party with such a clearly defined and promoted aim such as a united Ireland must be taken as a vote for a UI.

Thats rubbish tbh. So they are voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want? Head in sand.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Come off it.People who vote for nationalist parties are nationalists.End of.

Dream on.

The mechanism for bringing about a united Ireland would be referendums conducted on both sides of the border. I think it unlikely that there will be a majority in NI for unification in this century (my crystal ball does not allow me look into the next century -- the view is clouded with too many uncertainties, from climate change to energy famines to global conflict).

Further, I think if there seemed to be a chance of unification, many people in the republic would have a re-think about this national aspiration, and the vote against would be significant.

Wolfe Tone · 05-07-2010 11:55PM

lugha wrote: »

All the main political parties in the South are pro-EU and have always support the various referenda over the years including Nice (x 2) and Lisbon (x 2). And yet there were sizable numbers of people (more than half on two occasions) who were clearly "voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want" The aspirations of a voter and the party for which he votes are only ever going to partially overlap.

If those parties said "Vote for me and I will further ties with europe! That is our main aim!"
Then I would follow what you are saying.

Mike 1972 · 05-07-2010 11:58PM

trapsagenius wrote: »

Come off it.People who vote for nationalist parties are nationalists.End of.

In the last European election I voted for the SDLP (note the highlighted word)

Does this make me a Nationalist ?

Wolfe Tone · 06-07-2010 12:01AM

Why would you vote for a party with a core tenant you disapprove of? If you dont mind me asking who do you vote for in national elections?

Mike 1972 · 06-07-2010 12:05AM

It was a European Election

The issue of United Ireland/United Kingdom doesnt matter a flying fiddlers at European level.

(Apologies once again to everyone else for pointing out the blindingly obvious)

If you dont mind me asking who do you vote for in national elections?

Depends on who/whats on offer

Alliance last time

Wolfe Tone · 06-07-2010 12:07AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

It was a European Election

The issue of United Ireland/United Kingdom doesnt matter a flying fiddlers at European level.

(Apologies once again to everyone else for pointing out the blindingly obvious)

Depends on who/whats on offer.

Alliance last time

A vote for a party in any election is demonstrating that you support their stance. It is giving them figures to point at to show that they have a mandate.

Well then you are one of a large group that can be persuaded either way then yes? If so you are they type of person who will have a major say.

Mike 1972 · 06-07-2010 12:10AM

I didnt realise I was voting in a UI/UK referendum.
We seem to have a lot of them dont you think ?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A vote for a party in any election is demonstrating that you support their stance.

SDLP and SF have other policies/positions besides wanting a united Ireland
UUP/DUP/TUV/PUP/Whateveryerhavinyerself have other policies/positions besides wanting to remain in the UK

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Why would you vote for a party with a core tenant you disapprove of?

Maybe I shouldnt vote at all ?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 06-07-2010 12:11AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Every vote for a party with such a clearly defined and promoted aim such as a united Ireland must be taken as a vote for a UI.

Thats rubbish tbh. So they are voting for people who represent and work for something that they don't actually want? Head in sand.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Come off it.People who vote for nationalist parties are nationalists.End of.

As much as I wish he wasn't, being realistic I think P.Breathneach is right on that point.

People vote for many different reasons. Party's local policies, party's major goals, candidate's personality and looks, candidates promises, candidates's known to family etc

So someone who would vote to stay in the UK for whatever reason but prefer's Sinn Fein local policies might vote for them here. Off the top of my head I can think of a few Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist groupings who would vote Sinn Fain/SDLP:

Homosexuals - Sinn Fein/SDLP are secular, DUP are bible bashers who regularly go out of their way to insult homosexuals and oppose equality. UUP aren't as vocal but no tangible difference in views.

Scientists - Sammy Wilson the minister for environment opposes an ad-campaign for energy saving because he doesn't believe in global warming. Nelson McCausland wants creationism portrayed as a valid theory on the origins of the earth/humans. David Simpson wants students who give creationist answers in exams to have assurances they won't be marked down. Someone else wanted a biblical explanation shown at the Giant's Causeway. You couldn't make this sh*t up.

Young unionists - For all the above reasons the unionist parties are plain embarrassing. I go to college in Derry and they've been the laughing stock. People don't vote for people they think are idiots.

Working class unionists - PUP are the only left wing unionist party and only got one MLA in the last election who has now left the party. So you might get unionists voting Sinn Fein/SDLP for their local policy but at the same time still want to be in the Union.

So they're just the people who have traditional reasons to stay in the union. There's also people who come from nationalist areas/backgrounds who might vote for Sinn Fein/SDLP cause they like the local guy but when it came to an election on the border they might decide its easier to feed their family/pay their mortgage in the union.

It's obvious to anyone who reads this board I'm in favour of a United Ireland but there's no point in false optimism.

Wolfe Tone · 06-07-2010 12:12AM

I know, but you know what I mean.... But it baffles me that a person would vote for SF etc if they did not want a UI.

So how do we know what anyone really wants then? They might also vote for a UI for the reasons you outlined, such as the look, words etc of their local politician. Do we just go on the BBC poll a few pages back?

Wolfe Tone · 06-07-2010 12:17AM

But the the same applies to people voting Unionist surely?

When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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