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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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    #632
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    In effect, what you want is that all politics in NI starts with people being nationalists or unionists, and that everything else is relatively unimportant.

    Sadly, such a way of seeing things is the general pattern in NI.

    Well my party was the first unionist party in northern ireland and i wouldn't want it to be ruined.


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    #633
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    In effect, what you want is that all politics in NI starts with people being nationalists or unionists, and that everything else is relatively unimportant.

    Sadly, such a way of seeing things is the general pattern in NI.
    do you not think that if all the northern irish MPs took their seat in westminster that all the parties could work better for a united ireland ? remember,all UK future policies are first worked out by select committees,before going to the goverment before going through parliament, and the only way you can have influence is by being in the committees.


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    #634
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    getz wrote: »
    do you not think that if all the northern irish MPs took their seat in westminster that all the parties could work better for a united ireland ? remember,all UK future policies are first worked out by select committees,before going to the goverment before going through parliament, and the only way you can have influence is by being in the committees.

    No because the unionist parties don't want a UI that is one of their promises to us.


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    #635
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    owenc wrote: »
    Well my party was the first unionist party in northern ireland and i wouldn't want it to be ruined.

    You are showing the sort of lack of vision that bedevils NI: unionism first; everything else afterwards.


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    #636
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    You are showing the sort of lack of vision that bedevils NI: unionism first; everything else afterwards.

    What? I ment that i didn't want my party to turn into a nationalist party or lose all its heritage.


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    #637
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    owenc wrote: »
    What? I ment that i didn't want my party to turn into a nationalist party or lose all its heritage.

    Most parties in NI need to lose some of their heritage. I would hope that you do not count "a Protestant state for a Protestant people" as a political heritage to be cherished.

    There is now a mechanism for settling the constitutional question. It is to be done by referendum, not by votes in Westminster or Stormont or Kildare Street. Accordingly, there should not be the same need for parties to define themselves primarily, almost exclusively, on the unionist/nationalist divide. Your MLAs should be concerned with health policy, education, transport, infrastructure, and other unimportant things of that sort, because they do not have the power to settle the constitutional question.


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    #638
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Most parties in NI need to lose some of their heritage. I would hope that you do not count "a Protestant state for a Protestant people" as a political heritage to be cherished.

    There is now a mechanism for settling the constitutional question. It is to be done by referendum, not by votes in Westminster or Stormont or Kildare Street. Accordingly, there should not be the same need for parties to define themselves primarily, almost exclusively, on the unionist/nationalist divide. Your MLAs should be concerned with health policy, education, transport, infrastructure, and other unimportant things of that sort, because they do not have the power to settle the constitutional question.

    No i count unionism as a heritage.


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    #639
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    owenc wrote: »
    No i count unionism as a heritage.

    Well, I don't expect a few words from me on an internet forum are likely to repair NI. I do hope that enough considered arguments on a lot of forums over a period of time might improve things a bit.

    You are in your bunker, and are part of the problem.


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    #640
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    owenc wrote: »
    No because the unionist parties don't want a UI that is one of their promises to us.
    untill the republic could afford it ,there would never be a united ireland,so the unionist parties have no worry on that score,whe it comes down to the nitty gritty, everyone knows which side their bread is buttered on,i was thinking more on the terms of sorting out any true grievances the communities may have,remember if northern ireland united with the south tomorrow ,it would cost the south over £3,billion a year just to keep people in work in the NHS,and i am sure the rest of the UK tax payers would not except subsidizing other countries


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    #641
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I don't see a united Ireland ever. I would not want one personally but am not against it per se. Although stormont are useless they are also the most effective government in the world as they have stoped people killing one another.

    If they can administer to both communities effectively and fairly and eventually break down community barriers then there is no need for a united Ireland.

    I think a lot of this talk down here in the free state is counter productive. Yes of course nationalists have had grievances, bad ones, but from a unionist point of view this talk of the inevitability of a united ireland only further entrenches unionists and was a contributing factor to the troubles in the first place. We have to remember that NI is a different country, but more importantly to Unionists Ireland is a different Nation and we cannot constantly try and pull them in to our sphere of influence as that is a threat to the peace that has been established


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    #642
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    sensibleken wrote: »
    I don't see a united Ireland ever. I would not want one personally but am not against it per se. Although stormont are useless they are also the most effective government in the world as they have stoped people killing one another.

    If they can administer to both communities effectively and fairly and eventually break down community barriers then there is no need for a united Ireland.

    I think a lot of this talk down here in the free state is counter productive. Yes of course nationalists have had grievances, bad ones, but from a unionist point of view this talk of the inevitability of a united ireland only further entrenches unionists and was a contributing factor to the troubles in the first place. We have to remember that NI is a different country, but more importantly to Unionists Ireland is a different Nation and we cannot constantly try and pull them in to our sphere of influence as that is a threat to the peace that has been established

    Yes i keep telling them that there will be trouble but they don't listen i agree with you it should be left the way it is to give us all peace and not change it to start off trouble just for a minority.


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    #643
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes i keep telling them that there will be trouble but they don't listen i agree with you it should be left the way it is to give us all peace and not change it to start off trouble just for a minority.


    You do realize how hypocritical you are? We should not change anything "just for a minority?"

    Well I guess Ireland should never have been partitioned in the first place then!
    It sickens me when people like you harp on about majorities.


    Would you like a return to a "protestant state for a protestant people?" Get rid of this pesky minority? Bring back the long kesh concentration camps?(described as such by a former secretary of state) Pick random Catholic men of a certain age and lock them up? Torture them to get "confessions"? Leave unionists and protestants out of course, they can do no wrong. Ah yes, the good old days of majority rule.
    Unionists have demonstrated that they cannot use their majority responsibly. The entire world knows that.

    Thats right, things should never be changed for a minority. Who cares about them? They are black, or catholic or nationalist. They are not like us. There is less of them. :rolleyes:

    And what happens when your majority is replaced by a nationalist one? Will you stand over your words then? Or will you return to your grand plans for sub partition? Will you follow the will of the majority? Or will your cries forever be of "NO SURRENDER!!!!"?

    Unionists have had a brutal history of horrifically abusing their artificially created majority. That is their heritage.
    No i count unionism as a heritage
    A heritage of injustice, torture, discrimination, subjugation of a proud peoples just like you. A legacy of institutionalized bigotry and sectarianism. And that was before the rise of the PIRA.


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    #644
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    You do realize how hypocritical you are? We should not change anything "just for a minority?"

    Well I guess Ireland should never have been partitioned in the first place then!
    It sickens me when people like you harp on about majorities.


    Would you like a return to a "protestant state for a protestant people?" Get rid of this pesky minority? Bring back the long kesh concentration camps?(described as such by a former secretary of state) Pick random Catholic men of a certain age and lock them up? Torture them to get "confessions"? Leave unionists and protestants out of course, they can do no wrong. Ah yes, the good old days of majority rule.
    Unionists have demonstrated that they cannot use their majority responsibly. The entire world knows that.

    Thats right, things should never be changed for a minority. Who cares about them? They are black, or catholic or nationalist. They are not like us. There is less of them. :rolleyes:

    And what happens when your majority is replaced by a nationalist one? Will you stand over your words then? Or will you return to your grand plans for sub partition? Will you follow the will of the majority? Or will your cries forever be of "NO SURRENDER!!!!"?

    Unionists have had a brutal history of horrifically abusing their artificially created majority. That is their heritage.


    A heritage of injustice, torture, discrimination, subjugation of a proud peoples just like you. A legacy of institutionalized bigotry and sectarianism. And that was before the rise of the PIRA.

    owenc is not the only one with a bunker mentality.

    Let's not move discussion forward when we can move it backwards.


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    #645
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    You do realize how hypocritical you are? We should not change anything "just for a minority?"

    Well I guess Ireland should never have been partitioned in the first place then!
    It sickens me when people like you harp on about majorities.


    Would you like a return to a "protestant state for a protestant people?" Get rid of this pesky minority? Bring back the long kesh concentration camps?(described as such by a former secretary of state) Pick random Catholic men of a certain age and lock them up? Torture them to get "confessions"? Leave unionists and protestants out of course, they can do no wrong. Ah yes, the good old days of majority rule.
    Unionists have demonstrated that they cannot use their majority responsibly. The entire world knows that.

    Thats right, things should never be changed for a minority. Who cares about them? They are black, or catholic or nationalist. They are not like us. There is less of them. :rolleyes:

    And what happens when your majority is replaced by a nationalist one? Will you stand over your words then? Or will you return to your grand plans for sub partition? Will you follow the will of the majority? Or will your cries forever be of "NO SURRENDER!!!!"?

    Unionists have had a brutal history of horrifically abusing their artificially created majority. That is their heritage.


    A heritage of injustice, torture, discrimination, subjugation of a proud peoples just like you. A legacy of institutionalized bigotry and
    sectarianism. And that was before the rise of the PIRA.


    Oh aye and the catholics do nothing, if i told you what they did to my dad one day you'd be shocked. :mad: Since when did i say protestant state. Don't rundown my heritage or i won't be talking to you again on this forum. How would you like it if you were chained to a seat by the ira and no one could help you and you were just left to blow up?? Naw you wouldn't well thats what my dad seen when the ira were about and ever since my dad has told me them stories i've had not one wink of sleep. I've been scared to sleep! He even told me that the ira were watching a boy down the end of my road (i live in the country aswell) and they went to his house and all and now i can't sleep any night even though it was 5 years ago.


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    #646
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Oh aye and the catholics do nothing, if i told you what they did to my dad one day you'd be shocked. :mad: Since when did i say protestant state. Don't rundown my heritage or i won't be talking to you again on this forum. How would you like it if you were chained to a seat by the ira and no one could help you and you were just left to blow up?? Naw you wouldn't well thats what my dad seen when the ira were about and ever since my dad has told me them stories i've had not one wink of sleep. I've been scared to sleep! He even told me that the ira were watching a boy down the end of my road (i live in the country aswell) and they went to his house and all and now i can't sleep any night even though it was 5 years ago.
    How would like like to have your door kicked in at the middle of the night, be dragged from your bed, beaten, bludgeoned, and have your liberty, what little you had, deprived on the sole account of your religion? Then be tortured? That is fact. The catholics, they do nothing? What sort of statement is that?

    Will you acknowlage that Unionists have abused their majority?

    Nice of you to totally ignore my point on majorities. They way forward Owen, is compromise. Something which for the most part nationalists have embraced.Will you?

    Many have had sleepless nights on account of loyalists too Owen.


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    #647
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    How would like like to have your door kicked in at the middle of the night, be dragged from your bed, beaten, bludgeoned, and have your liberty, what little you had, deprived on the sole account of your religion? Then be tortured? That is fact. The catholics, they do nothing? What sort of statement is that?

    Will you acknowlage that Unionists have abused their majority?

    Nice of you to totally ignore my point on majorities. They way forward Owen, is compromise. Something which for the most part nationalists have embraced.Will you?

    Many have had sleepless nights on account of loyalists too Owen.

    Well thats bad and thats what i'm scared of happening! But i will not acknowladge that because the ira have done some very bad things, i could right you a list of them that my dad has told me about.


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    #648
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    Well thats bad and thats what i'm scared of happening! But i will not acknowladge that because the ira have done some very bad things, i could right you a list of them that my dad has told me about.
    So you will not acknowledge that the unionists have abused their majority?


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    #649
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So you will not acknowledge that the unionists have abused their majority?

    No because the nationalists have abused the unionists.


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    #650
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    No because the nationalists have abused the unionists.
    How are we supposed to move forward then?


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    #651
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    How are we supposed to move forward then?

    By ignoring terriorists.


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    #652
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    By ignoring terriorists.
    But not all nationalists are terrorists. IRA members were not the only people abused by the Unionist state.


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    #653
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    But not all nationalists are terrorists. IRA members were not the only people abused by the Unionist state.

    I'm sure you'd like to see the figures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles, 60% were killed by republicans, i said i was ignoring terriorisim now please stop talking about it.


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    #654
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    I'm sure you'd like to see the figures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles, 60% were killed by republicans, i said i was ignoring terriorisim now please stop talking about it.
    I know the numbers Owen. Ignoring problems sure makes them go away..... So grievances of nationalists should be ignored?


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    #655
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I know the numbers Owen. Ignoring problems sure makes them go away..... So grievances of nationalists should be ignored?

    No you should forget about the past and move on thats whats wrong with Northern Ireland.


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    #656
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I know the numbers Owen. Ignoring problems sure makes them go away..... So grievances of nationalists should be ignored?
    He's right though. The only way to move forward is to ignore the numbers and move on. Yes, nationalists should grieve but they shouldn't pay any more heed to the IRA. Less the whole thing starts up again.


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    #657
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    owenc wrote: »
    No you should forget about the past and move on thats whats wrong with Northern Ireland.
    So then yes they should be ignored? Should the Bloody Sunday victims families have forgotten? People on both sides of the conflict deserve closure.


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    #658
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    owenc wrote: »
    By ignoring terriorists.

    Nice spelling!


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    #659
    Hugo Drax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Hugo Drax


    owenc wrote: »
    No you should forget about the past and move on thats whats wrong with Northern Ireland.

    Why is a supposed unionist posting on a southern website?


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    #660
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    He's right though. The only way to move forward is to ignore the numbers and move on. Yes, nationalists should grieve but they shouldn't pay any more heed to the IRA. Less the whole thing starts up again.
    Yes indeed. But I feel that closure is needed if the two communities are to reconcile.


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    #661
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yes indeed. But I feel that closure is needed if the two communities are to reconcile.
    What form do you think that closure should come in?


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