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Enda wins

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    #182
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,049 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Matt Santos wrote: »
    And we still thought we were millionaires back then! Enda got as much as he could out of an electorate that were hood winked by Bertie in the GE.
    When I said shot it meant a shot at the top job Taoiseach not a shot at getting in.

    So you only count shots when they're handed on a plate? This government has to one of the most unpopular in the country's history and he still isn't able to build on it.


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    #183
    Matt Santos
    Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭Matt Santos


    Breezer wrote: »
    For me, this isn't about Kenny, it's about Fine Gael as a whole. They have a leader who does not have the support of half his party. They currently have no one on the front bench, and I dread to think who Enda will now put in there, given that so many of his top people have said they will not serve under him. These are the people that have formulated FG policy, the policies I agree with. Without them, FG no longer represents what it did last week.

    I'm adopting a wait and see approach, but today, no, I would not vote for Fine Gael. It's not because of Kenny, who I've defended vigorously in the past (although admittedly a lot less since January/February). It's because of Bruton, Varadkar, Hayes, etc.

    Only two people have publicly stated that they could not serve on a Front Bench lead by Enda Kenny. And Kenny was such a progressive politician he had cleared the path for a return to the Front bench for anybody that voted against him before the vote took place. This man has a record of healing and this was shown up again so well with how he dealt with this.
    Get over it people. Its over. Kenny leads Fine Gael into the next election. But, I would expect that this episode will kick start a lot of change with in the party and the young guns will have to saddle up behind their man..


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    #184
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,515 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Kenny has shown no real ability to land a single solid blow on the worst and most hated government in years. I dont know if its just hes too nice a guy to stick the knife in and twist it. With Bertie for example, it seemed they were too shy and flustered to poke too much around the issue when Bertie tried to pretend his financial issues for the past 20 years were all down to his seperation.

    In the end, the pressure to push Bertie came from within his own party, not from Kenny's FG. A lame duck taoiseach where everyone knew he was crooked and Kenny couldnt make it stick.

    The same for Cowen and Lenihan - theyve taken an almost deferential tone to Fianna Fail, never really actually opposing government policy...just feeling its enough to lodge a polite protest.

    I dont agree with those who cite Kenny as a reason not to vote for Fine Gael. I just dont see him as a reason to vote *for* Fine Gael. And unfortunately, most of the reasons *for* voting for Fine Gael have expressed no confidence in Kenny. I know, on a personal level, that its desperately unfair on a man like Kenny who probably is not a bad guy...but like it or not, politics is 80% style and 20% substance. Kenny doesnt seem able to master either.

    Hes got to go. Not just for the good of Fine Gael, but for the good of Ireland. Fine Gael need to be the next government, they need to get the maximum number of seats in play so that the influence of Labour with is utterly disastrous fantasy politics is reduced or removed and for that they need swing voters. Swing voters are reassured by Brutons economic competency, they are repelled by Kenny. Unfair or not, for the good of Ireland, Kenny has to go so that FG pick up the maximum number of seats next time out.


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    #185
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    During this fiasco he and his close followers have now also shown a selfish, "me fein", power hungry streak which unbelievably similar to the FF government which he has rightly chastised.

    Is this one of the most detailed vague sentences ever? How has he shown a 'power hungry streak'? A member of his party challenged his leadership; He won; Hardly power hungry...:confused:


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    #186
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    I will once again say that FG are in opposition against the most unpopular government since the brits! ANYONE could have won more seats for FG.

    Well, that is your opinion. But I think you are underestimating just how low Fine Gael were at the time. And it did look like they were going to fall lower.
    It is just as possible that somebody else would take over and lost seats for FG. The current government have only become so unpopular in the last couple of years so I think your argument is flawed.


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    #187
    Gatsbygirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Gatsbygirl


    One of the most depressing observations of the day in my opinion is that the behaviour of the pro-Kenny group in the aftermath of the result was a replica of what one would expect from a group of gombeen FFers! The reason that Bruton and his supporters appeal to a no non-traditional FG voter, like myself, is that they come across as measured, professional, articulate and a refreshing change from the traditional 'our boy' wink-wink-nudge-nudge stuff that passes for political representation in this country.

    So depressing that such a great opportunity for a new, fresh and policy driven alternative government has been squandered..


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    #188
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    My Problem with Kenny . .

    1. The paycut fiasco - He got off lightly, but only because FF were stewarding the collapse of our country . . As an obvious PR stunt, he offered to take a paycut as a gesture of goodwill to the Irish People . . When FF cut salaries he rolled back on it . . This is a problem because the kind of money we are talking about is not that significant. . Not only that, its exactly what we would expect from those evil gits in FF that use every trick in the book to fool the electorate . . It was shameless PR. I heard another commentator say he tried another PR stunt with suicide victims back in early 00's.

    2. Being told what to say - I cant speak for other leaders, but most of them dont need an earpiece to tell them what to say. . Even if they do, how does that make them credible leadership material? This raises serious question marks over his ability to discuss some of the most important issues facing our country . .

    3. He still could not take advantage of the least popular government , possibly ever .

    4. Does not show leadership qualities. Yes, we need a taoiseach with more substance then style, but in the absence of a personality of some sort that is difficult to measure. . Irrespective of personality, people need to believe that this person will bring prosperity because we will follow and work harder for somebody we believe in. . It wasnt that we believed in Bertie, it was the perfect storm and the country rode a wave of success that any clown could of been successful in. . Bertie was like the Joker riding into Gotham City throwing loads of money at its citizens. . Greed took over our nation . .Yes he fooled us all, but he would not get away with it in such economic turmoil and I believe that a credible leader lacking in substance would be soon found out.

    On top of this, reform is needed, serious reform. If we dont have a decisive leader who people have confidence in, it will be much harder to get changes and cuts made . . Most people say something of the lines of "I will take a 5% cut if I believed in the government", well if Kenny doesnt inspire anybody's imagination, it will be difficult to get unresistant change.

    I dont have a problem with Kenny at all, I just dont think he inspire's and I struggle to believe that people will follow him in the hardship that will be dished out. The ONLY qualities that his own closest followers can say about him is that he saved the party, he has improved the partys seats and he is a nice guy. . Sorry but I am not looking for another taoiseach that is great for his party and is loyal to their members . . How has this comparison not been discussed ?


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    #189
    deanh
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭deanh


    but people in Mayo have the right to vote same as everybody else. They do pay taxes. At least none of them are responsible for Anglo, Irish Nationwide, Ghost Housing Estates etc.


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    #190
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Sorry but I am not looking for another taoiseach that is great for his party and is loyal to their members . . How has this comparison not been discussed ?

    Well, I think the problem you have is party politics which means that the taoiseach will always be loyal to their members above others. Personallly I would favour a different kind of politics but thats a whole other debate.


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    #191
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I hope Bruton leaves with his supporters and sets up a new party.

    in the national interest


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    #192
    Justin Collery
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭Justin Collery


    Two musings on this whole debacle.

    1) Enda Kenny is supposed to be the leader. In times such as we have his job is not to do the heavy thinking, but to inspire confidence. Think Churchill in WWII. He clearly does not do this and so is not fit for purpose.

    2) While I think it is unlikely, there are some interesting possibilities if Bruton did decide to setup an opposing party. He would be wise not to lead the new party, but to stick in his finance role. He should get the most charismatic leader from among the members. There is a massive groundswell of longing for a new party apart from civil war politics. Getting the youngest and brightest to setup this party seems a logical way to break from the past.

    What would be interesting would be this. I can image a number of FF TD's would like to jump ship before the next general election. The new party may not want such toxic cargo. If they took some however it could precipitate an election faster than is currently likely. For any new party, an election in the next 6 to 12 months would be perfect, just long enough to get party structures in place, just short enough to still capture the public imagination as a new party. In an election where you would expect FF to suffer the horrors and a new party with clear policies opposing a resurgent but fuzzy logic labour, the new party could do well, very well. Good enough to be well established so they do not go the way of the PD's (and the greens next time out).

    In my view the current time represents the best time for a new party to be established, possibly since 1921.

    JC


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    #193
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Matt Santos wrote: »
    Only two people have publicly stated that they could not serve on a Front Bench lead by Enda Kenny. And Kenny was such a progressive politician he had cleared the path for a return to the Front bench for anybody that voted against him before the vote took place. This man has a record of healing and this was shown up again so well with how he dealt with this.
    Get over it people. Its over. Kenny leads Fine Gael into the next election. But, I would expect that this episode will kick start a lot of change with in the party and the young guns will have to saddle up behind their man..
    Ah bull crap.

    People who earlier today were saying they had no confidence in kenny suddenly can be confident enough in him to serve under him because roughly half the parliamentary party voted confidence.

    Pull the other one.

    Anyone that had no confidence this morning and suddenly have confidence now are either deranged or just untrustworthy.

    It just doesn't wash.
    In fact those that supported Bruton that go back to kenny tonight just make me despise Fine gael as a party of morons.


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    #194
    trapsagenius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭trapsagenius


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Before this whole fiasco he'd shown the inability to:

    1) capitalise on a government that is widely seen as destroying the country.

    2) to grasp situations and/or convey his thoughts on it. Specifically the economy.

    3) to instill faith his front bench that he had the ability to lead their party let alone the country.

    4) to stop himself from going on "solo runs"

    During this fiasco he and his close followers have now also shown a selfish, "me fein", power hungry streak which unbelievably similar to the FF government which he has rightly chastised.

    I'm sure there's plenty more reasons out there but they're some of my reasons why I will not vote for FG while he's in power.

    Point 3 says it all really.

    And I don't think I'll ever fully recover from that SF question on the late late.Reminded me of Sarah Palin.


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    #195
    Freiheit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    On the Newstalk lunch-time show today it was said (can't remember name of presenter) the horrified body language of Enda when he was asked an unscripted question in a past interview.....the leader of our second largest party horrified at being asked a question which wasn't in the script:rolleyes: , on 'whether he supported assisted suicide'........ Everything is scripted with Enda.......

    Politics shouldn't all be about soundbite, there has to be substance too, but Enda doesn't know who or what he is....wouldn't want him running a cowshed never mind a country.


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    #196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gatsbygirl wrote: »
    One of the most depressing observations of the day in my opinion is that the behaviour of the pro-Kenny group in the aftermath of the result was a replica of what one would expect from a group of gombeen FFers! The reason that Bruton and his supporters appeal to a no non-traditional FG voter, like myself, is that they come across as measured, professional, articulate and a refreshing change from the traditional 'our boy' wink-wink-nudge-nudge stuff that passes for political representation in this country.

    So depressing that such a great opportunity for a new, fresh and policy driven alternative government has been squandered..
    +1000,000

    Another very good post from you and you capture the essense of where the kennyites are getting it wrong and why they haven't mopped up[and won't now] in the face of the countries most unpopular government ever.


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    #197
    Breezer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    deanh wrote: »
    but people in Mayo have the right to vote same as everybody else. They do pay taxes. At least none of them are responsible for Anglo, Irish Nationwide, Ghost Housing Estates etc.
    Did no one in Mayo ever vote for Fianna Fáil then?


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    #198
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Ah bull crap.

    People who earlier today were saying they had no confidence in kenny suddenly can be confident enough in him to serve under him because roughly half the parliamentary party voted confidence.

    Pull the other one.

    Anyone that had no confidence this morning and suddenly have confidence now are either deranged or just untrustworthy.

    It just doesn't wash.
    In fact those that supported Bruton that go back to kenny tonight just make me despise Fine gael as a party of morons.

    Look, this is what is being party of a political party is about. Its about joining people with similar beliefs as you and in some cases compromising. It is also how democracy runs; Brutons followers said they wanted a change in leadership; A democratic decision was taken that Kenny continues as leader. What should they do? Walk out of Fine Gael? Which will just create further divisions? Like the anti-treaty side did against the pro-treaty (Not saying that this will lead to civil war but democratic decisions like this should be repsected)


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    #199
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Lol at the mention of the treaty...

    Civil war politics-thats pretty much what we saw today alright.

    I fully expect Labour to do much better than they would otherwise [thanks to this FG decision] at the next election.
    People consider their vote much more carefully for the Dáil than they do for the co co's and Europe.


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    #200
    rugbyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭rugbyman


    lugha wrote: »
    This thread makes for truly depressing reading :(. And the Irish are supposed to be a sophisticated electorate! Can anybody cite a real, non-bulls**t reason for not voting for FG while Kenny is in charge? And no, lacking charisma or not likely to be a good drinking companion (not true, by all accounts) or not having a good public image do not count as good, or even bad, reasons.
    Seriously, do the peopl    e who come out with this pish even think about what nonsense it is? A good reason would be that he has engaged in or facilitated corruption or that he has shown himself incompetent in office or that he lacks experience? In short, is he fit for the job. Pretty much the kind of assessment you would make if you were hiring a plumber.

    Whoever said that people in a democracy deserve the politicians they get were bang on the money for Ireland in 2010. :(





    About as good a post as I have read.

    Regards,Rugbyman

    p.s. it is fairly easy ,after reading a number of a perticular persons posts to "read" that person. In these FG leadreship posts the amount of vitriol,and the frequency of posts ,suggests to me that those posters have little of no interest in FG.


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    #201
    deanh
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭deanh


    Breezer wrote: »
    Did no one in Mayo ever vote for Fianna Fáil then?

    obviously, How else would you explain the Flynasty? But, in a democracy their opinions are as valid as anyones.


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    #202
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I hope Bruton leaves with his supporters and sets up a new party.


    Do we need another gang like the pds.


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    #203
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    ednwireland wrote: »
    5 more years of FF- great :rolleyes:


    Why 5


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    #204
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Voltwad wrote: »
    I've more faith in Gilmore thankfully


    I have more faith in Ian Paisley than Guilmore


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    #205
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    I think the results show that Enda Kenny has far more balls than anyone gives him credit for. .


    2


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    #206
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    RonMexico wrote: »
    The only winner here is FF. The opposition truly are a joke.


    When did you discover this


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    #207
    gpjordanf1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭gpjordanf1


    I'd like to congratulate Enda today,

    He deserved the win, he's worked hard for it, not only the last week but the last 8 years.
    FG were in the toilet in '02 and nobody wanted the job and none of the talent mentioned in this thread wanted it either. Dont forget Bruton was there too. FG need a leader and Enda stood firm, nobody else.
    The front bench back stabbers have been plotting this for some time and they have dragged Enda & the party down by their non preformance due to grievances with Enda. But this talent decides amongst themselves to stab the leader of their party in the back instead of standing up and being counted from day one. Cowards.
    The "floaters" with no party allegiances who dont know what to do now, well ye can vote for FF again, its what ye done last time. There's no point in taking out your frustrations on the opposition leader for your mistakes, and that he doesn't live up to your "X Factor" mentality, its a pity you couldn't text in your vote like you did on a saturday night.
    Anyway theres no election for some time due to the spineless crowd that are in power at the moment backed up by their lackies.

    I will be basing my next vote on the basis of who ever has the bottle to knock on my door and debate why they deserve my vote. Whether it be FG, FF, Lab, Shinners, Greens etc ( It wont be FF or greens BTW but I'm looking forward to the grovelling & false promises ;) )


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    #208
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Biggins wrote: »
    332tpty.jpg


    Feckin Brilliant


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    #209
    Lando Griffin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭Lando Griffin


    In his victory speech this evening did he say its the end of detention or the end of de tension. Its the last victory Enda will have i fear. May god bless up all and this great country.


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    #210
    Deise Tom
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Deise Tom


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I will once again say that FG are in opposition against the most unpopular government since the brits! ANYONE could have won more seats for FG.




    Which goes to show how unpopular the man is


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    #211
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    So its more of the same from FG then with the majority backing dull Kenny. I guess that is the next election blown then for FG. Bruton might not be everyones cup of tea but FG need a new leader other than Kenny. FF will be delighted that FG have a leader as ineffective as Biffo.


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