[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Psychedelic · 13-05-2010 3:22pm

9

MJRS wrote: »

I've never seen people get so defensive over other people not liking it! Not specifically you Psych, but you can see it on every page of this thread, it's mental!

I've never seen people so angry and upset.

At least half the people in this thread:

dudeitshurley · 13-05-2010 3:25pm

Psychedelic wrote: »

People are complaining about things like we didn't find out how Jacob build the light house (someone else obviously built it) and the children wearing colour-coded clothes (so ****ing what).

Just to pick up on this as it's the example you're running with. The Lighthouse. Do you believe "someone else obviously built it" is sufficient? It seemed to be a pretty important reveal, both for the audience and for Jack. Pivotal even. Affirmed that Jacob has been watching him his whole life, that he's special and came to the Island by design rather than quirk of fate. If it's not addressed again is it sufficient just to say it's a magical lighthouse that somebody else built that allows Jacob/the Protector to view potential candidates??

It's Darltons show so they can do what they like with it; but for example - if they had showed a scene with Alison Janney walking down from the Lighthouse before the pregnant woman washes ashore, it would have tied in the candidates situation very well. Instead by killing the woman and the rest of them, it more or less hinted that the idea of candidature is completely a moot point or something that develops far later.

I hope it's addressed anyway. I think it will be/should be.

Dymo · 13-05-2010 3:43pm

6

demolitionman wrote: »

Here an interview with darlton post ATS.

WARNING: they drop two negative spoilers. as in confirm two mysteries that they never intend to answer.

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea

I've always found those two to be arrogant and cranky and that article even proves it. Apparently the show isn't about mysteries its about how they decide to write it.

"We told the story the way we wanted to" ,

"I think for us to explain why we're not giving him a name (MIB)veers too far into the territory of explaining things that we don't feel the need to explain."

"We feel that we as storytellers, basically can only approach the storytelling the way that we do, which is it felt like there was no way that we could just be answering existing questions "

Its more like who cares about the fanbase who made the show what it is today were doing it our way. Personally I don't think they had an idea of what the ending was going to be and season 6 has been a struggle to fill the 18 episodes

Psychedelic · 13-05-2010 3:51pm

9

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Just to pick up on this as it's the example you're running with. The Lighthouse. Do you believe "someone else obviously built it" is sufficient?

Yes, for me anyway that is sufficient. It would be nice for more info but I'm satisfied that some others built it. Not sure how they built the magic mirror, but maybe we'll get some bit of info that allows us to think of a way.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

but for example - if they had showed a scene with Alison Janney walking down from the Lighthouse before the pregnant woman washes ashore, it would have tied in the candidates situation very well.

I think that would've been pretty cool.

dudeitshurley · 13-05-2010 3:55pm

Psychedelic wrote: »

Yes, for me anyway that is sufficient. It would be nice for more info but I'm satisfied that some others built it. Not sure how they built the magic mirror, but maybe we'll get some bit of info that allows us to think of a way.

I think that would've been pretty cool.

I'm not and never have been someone who wants "answers" but introducing what feels like a key concept (lighthouse) then not alluding to it at all would be lame. It wouldn't make sense for it to be built pre-Alison Janney/Mother as there was clearly no candidature in place.

Look a lot of things as SP said will never make sense as they are in the realms of the supernatural and magic. But by that same token they can't just lump everything in the "someone else did it" or "it's magic, accept it" without at least trying to fit it into the storyline. So much is going to feel like White Elephants.

dudeitshurley · 13-05-2010 4:08pm

Just an overall point - back in s1 when most people got hooked, for me the key mystery would be "will these group of people be rescued or get off this magical island". It was character and plot-driven to the extent that we were eager to learn more about the island, it's inhabitants, it's history but mostly once we started to care about the characters the key question was: will they ever make it home?

Once it became abundantly clear people could move to/from the island with relative impunity, that focus shifted more towards what the island is. It's history, story, properties, mystique. The resolution for the 815'ers is still important but it's the islands and mythology that takes precedence now. This episode didn't do much to raise hopes that this story will be resolved adequately.

I'll repeat it's Darltons show, which i love for better for worse, but here are a couple of things (at this point) i retrospectively feel weakened the show:

1. Killing John Locke. The convoluted scheme involving MIB to take over a body. In retrospect it could have been anyone seemingly. Why kill an unbelievably good character and blur the lines so massively.

2. Ben & Widmore. Spend many seasons developing this sense of Ben & Widmore being major players in the story then retrospectively making all of it look just plain STUPID as they are both basically clueless or minor pawns.

3. Time Travel. At the time seemed like a key plot device but basically now has zero resonance with the end-game.

4. The Dharma Initiative. Their story told? I think not. Again a theme built up over many seasons, made to look like major players in the overall story but again probably little-to-zero relevance in the end-game.

jimbling · 13-05-2010 4:23pm

7

lads ye guys are going nuts of the smallest of things. I'm just going to take one example.... but the same can be said for many of the things ye're picking on.

The lighthouse. It never was and never will be a "key concept". It's only purpose was to show Jack, and the viewer, that Jacob had selected these key candidates from a young age and had the ability to watch them.
How the lighthouse works is of absolutely no importance whatsoever. Who built the lighthouse is of absolutely no importance whatsoever.

EDIT: Dudeitshurley, just to note, I wrote this before reading your last post. I agree with more of what you're saying there. But they are big big things, not small and inconsequential like the lighthouse

James Forde · 13-05-2010 4:33pm

8

Good episode - thought "mother" summed up alot when she said "each question you ask will lead to another"

the whole light well thing was corny to be perfectly honest - but look it's not aliens

as mentioned before the timing of the episode struck me as very odd ( i didn't watch any previews so had no idea what was coming) thought it could have come earlier in the season

always nice to have an episode with Jacob in it - we waited how many seasons to find out who/what Jacob is and people complain when we find out his origins

8/10

jimbling · 13-05-2010 4:36pm

7

dudeitshurley wrote: »

I'll repeat it's Darltons show, which i love for better for worse, but here are a couple of things (at this point) i retrospectively feel weakened the show:

1. Killing John Locke. The convoluted scheme involving MIB to take over a body. In retrospect it could have been anyone seemingly. Why kill an unbelievably good character and blur the lines so massively.

I don't think it could have been anyone. Not sure if we'll find out exactly what the story was, but, in my mind at least, it's very easy to assume that there were very specific reasons that it was John Locke. I don't really need to know what they were. But further reasoning behind the whole convoluted scheme would certainly be welcome.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

2. Ben & Widmore. Spend many seasons developing this sense of Ben & Widmore being major players in the story then retrospectively making all of it look just plain STUPID as they are both basically clueless or minor pawns.

Agree to some extent. Bens motives for a lot of things are under question all right. But I think I realised ben was pretty much a pawn a few seasons back, so it's no surprise. Even as they were making a huge deal of Widmore and Ben rivalry it was obvious they were both pawns fighting over their own importance.

At the same time, Bens job was still vital. The others had an important role to play. They were basically Jacobs minions. If new groups arrived at the island, the hostiles were there to ensure they didnt get too close to the power beneath. They may not have understood what or why they were doing this, but they were doing it none the less.
e.g. Ben was the one who put a stop to Dharma via the purge.... this was extremely important task.

And even though Ben didn't know much about Jacob or the Supernatural qualities, he still knew a hell of a lot more than everyone else.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

3. Time Travel. At the time seemed like a key plot device but basically now has zero resonance with the end-game.

I really really hope this is not the case.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

4. The Dharma Initiative. Their story told? I think not. Again a theme built up over many seasons, made to look like major players in the overall story but again probably little-to-zero relevance in the end-game.

Ya, looks like they're just another group of people that go too close to the power of the island and were destroyed as a result.

bob2oo7 · 13-05-2010 4:37pm

So Jacobs replacement.. wheter it be Jack/Desmond or whomever needs to Drink the Wine in order to become the same as jackob and thus the "protector" of the Island.

Who is going to give them the wine?

And I 100% think that MIB became smokie when he was thrown in to the stream and into the cave.. a fate worse that "death"

joe123 · 13-05-2010 4:37pm

If someone who liked this episode can honestly explain to me how MIB realised that

Wheel+water+light = get off the island

then il give you a big hearty thanks.

nc6000 · 13-05-2010 4:38pm

2

dudeitshurley wrote: »

1. Killing John Locke. The convoluted scheme involving MIB to take over a body. In retrospect it could have been anyone seemingly. Why kill an unbelievably good character and blur the lines so massively.

+1

I don't know what was the point in killing off Locke only to bring him back like they did? I can't think of a single reason why he couldn't still be alive with MIB taking the form of literally anyone else.

Even though I found the episode pretty poor the low point in Lost for me was the episode where all of a sudden Jack had a Grandfather who never featured who Jack suddenly had to visit who just happened to have a pair of shoes belonging to Christian which Jack got from him to put on Locke's body.

It was the most contrived/forced piece of TV I can remember. :rolleyes:

bob2oo7 · 13-05-2010 4:40pm

nc6000 wrote: »

+1

I don't know what was the point in killing off Locke only to bring him back like they did? I can't think of a single reason why he couldn't still be alive with MIB taking the form of literally anyone else.

Even though I found the episode pretty poor the low point in Lost for me was the episode where all of a sudden Jack had a Grandfather who never featured who Jack suddenly had to visit who just happened to have a pair of shoes belonging to Christian which Jack got from him to put on Locke's body.

It was the most contrived/forced piece of TV I can remember. :rolleyes:

It had to be Locke because lock had an great influcence over the people on the island

If it was Chirstian for example.. and he said "lets all follow me to the statue.. and Ben you are going to Kill Jacob".. noone would of listened to a word he said

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-05-2010 5:13pm

1

To those defending this episode, I'd just like to say I'm not someone that has wanted answers desperately. I stuck through the seasons being quite content with the ongoing mysteries put forward in the belief that it would have some sort of logical climax to it. For it to culminate in an episode like this is frankly a slap in the face. I'm astonished some people are trying to defend it.

Some of the main questions of the show, i.e. What is the Smoke Monster? How did it originate? Why is Jacob protecting the island? For what purpose? And so forth...what we ended up with in the end is magic and potions and all sorts of nonsense.

People are forgetting one of the seasons of the show was almost entirely devoted to science and explaining the intricacies of time travel. I didn't particularly care for the science stuff personally but at least it was an attempt at logic. To end up with this episode is a clear indication that they spun a yarn that simply got too far out of control.

I mean come on, imagine sitting Faraday down and explaining the origin of the island to him. No wonder they killed him off. :pac:

mickeycireland · 13-05-2010 5:20pm

6

I was not as conflicted about this episode as most to be honest.

As many have said, mother was the protector, mother chose Jacob to be the next protector, he in turn will choose his replacement. We don't need to know who made mother the protector.

I think the key to alot of the questions is the "light". We need an explanation for time-travel, island moving, smoke monster etc. The writers were never going to be able to give a detailed scientific explanation for all these things. The light which represents the enormous power of the island is the device which they have used to do this.

The ability to harness the light into something powerful was demonstrated by MIB building the donkey wheel system. He was aided in this task by the great minds that arrived on the island. Similarily Jacob would have enlisted the help of another group of great minds (perhaps the statue builders) to build the lighthouse mirror system. The light is an enormous source of power with fantastic potential limited only by the mind that sets out to employ it.

Use the power of the light to answer all your niggly questions and get on with enjoying the remainder of the show, my two cents

tok9 · 13-05-2010 5:55pm

8

Also if it helps.. stop calling it light. call it Electro Magnetism

the_monkey · 13-05-2010 6:09pm

8

podgemonster wrote: »

Also did anyone think the twins actually mother was seriously hot!

yeah , forgot to mention that she was smokin' hot!

another thing, it was the young JAcob Flocke was seeing,
but wasn't there another dark haired kid he saw once aswell ?

was this 'himself' as a kid ?

Charlie · 13-05-2010 7:18pm

5

From another Forum:

PetKing · 13-05-2010 7:46pm

5

joe123 wrote: »

If someone who liked this episode can honestly explain to me how MIB realised that

Wheel+water+light = get off the island

then il give you a big hearty thanks.

Do we have any quantum physicists in the room this evening??

PetKing · 13-05-2010 7:50pm

5

I am absoloutly loving that they haven't revealed Smokeys name... Clearly it doesn't matter a toss... But this episode's thread has been very polarised and just riviting to read through. Loving it.

Handsome Bob · 13-05-2010 8:13pm

4

Just thinking about the episode again and I realised that basically, MIB's attitude mirrors Jack's original attitude. In the sense that MIB was curious and needed facts, he wasn't gullible. He followed what made sense.

Whereas Jacob was originally the blind follower, ala Locke. Whereas MIB's opinion of humanity was based on experience, Jacob's opinion humanity was based on unfounded faith.

In sum, the more I think of the Jacob/MIB dynamic I love it, but still hate the episode in regards to answers. As I said earlier, every bit of dialogue just led to more questions. Surprise surprise, at the beginning of the episode the mother says (paraphrase) every question you ask will only lead to more questions. I can't help but think that's a shot at us fans who demand definitive answers. Personally I think this just reflects the writers bottling attitude. They accuse fans of being in the wrong for expecting answers, whereas the reality is they are afraid to give definitive answers because they don't want to piss off fans. So ambiguity is the name of the game, they are playing it safe.

PetKing · 13-05-2010 8:29pm

5

LZ5by5 wrote: »

JI can't help but think that's a shot at us fans who demand definitive answers. Personally I think this just reflects the writers bottling attitude. They accuse fans of being in the wrong for expecting answers, whereas the reality is they are afraid to give definitive answers because they don't want to piss off fans. So ambiguity is the name of the game, they are playing it safe.

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second and say that I can see where they are coming from in respect of writing answers that flow naturally with the narrative and good story telling. Taking mother on guided tour of the light and showing what cog goes where to make the wheel work isn't good story telling, it's merely to satisfy the vocal fans who want answers, lest we forget the whispers.

PetKing · 13-05-2010 8:47pm

5

......

......

......

Across the sea or Exposé.....

Psychedelic · 13-05-2010 9:03pm

9

joe123 wrote: »

If someone who liked this episode can honestly explain to me how MIB realised that

Wheel+water+light = get off the island

then il give you a big hearty thanks.

MiB said he knows this because he is special. He also said the people on the island had very interesting ideas what to do with the light. But we know anyway that by turning the wheel you get transported off the island. Does it really matter how MiB just somehow knew this?

LZ5by5 wrote: »

As I said earlier, every bit of dialogue just led to more questions. Surprise surprise, at the beginning of the episode the mother says (paraphrase) every question you ask will only lead to more questions. I can't help but think that's a shot at us fans who demand definitive answers. Personally I think this just reflects the writers bottling attitude. They accuse fans of being in the wrong for expecting answers, whereas the reality is they are afraid to give definitive answers because they don't want to piss off fans. So ambiguity is the name of the game, they are playing it safe.

The writers have used the phrase "each answer leads to more questions" several times in the podcasts so I wasn't too surprised when it featured in the show itself. In a way they are right. Some people are asking who was before Mother, who was before her? If we got an answer to that people would be asking, well who before that person, ad infinitum. If we saw someone building the lighthouse, people would complain that they were introducing new characters too late in the show.

Handsome Bob · 13-05-2010 9:18pm

4

It's not so much a question who was before the mother and before that person too, it's a more a question of what is their purpose. Why exactly do they have to do this and what exactly will happen if they don't protect the light. I think they could have giving a definitive answer there, it didn't have to be an endless tangent of a question.

opinion guy · 13-05-2010 9:26pm

5

joe123 wrote: »

If someone who liked this episode can honestly explain to me how MIB realised that

Wheel+water+light = get off the island

then il give you a big hearty thanks.

The dead people told him stuff. Together with the smart villagers he figured it out.

tok9 wrote: »

Also if it helps.. stop calling it light. call it Electro Magnetism

No that doesn't help. In fact its worse. I prefer the term "magical but **** plot device".

Teddy Daniels · 13-05-2010 10:08pm

In the simpsons comic book guy was askng loads of questions of his favorite writers. The answered "whenever it is strange or dosen't make sense A Wizard did it. I feel like that.

mewso · 13-05-2010 10:22pm

4

This thread is great I must say. I thought it was a pretty average episode. I think as a massive BSG fan I was prepared and had assumed early on that we were never going to get any conrete answers and season 6 has confirmed this but in a way has made it worse making things more and more silly. At the end of the day it almost never fails to be entertaining but as far as answers go. Nope.

I'm also someone who has watched all episodes from the start and there is no way in hell I would have made the connection to Adam and Eve. Yes I would recall that event from season 1 if reminded but making the connection is the problem. I still don't think it justifies the flashback in any case.

Mr. Nice Guy beat me to it on the LOTR vibe. Frodo and Gandlaf coming out of that cave of light on a horse drawn cart would not have been out of place nor would some of the dialogue from the movie. It's just more of this ridulous hocus pocus rubbish. Guard this cave with your life. Never go in. Never ask anything about it. And the theorisers or Lost apologists as I may start to call them are out in force some even going back to the electromagnatism. Lets get a grip here. Any attempt to explain things using any kind of science will have Newton rolling in his grave so fast he'll cause enough electromagnatism to feature in an episode.

Lost is still fun for me but cudos to you apologists. You are still getting your enjoyment out of these wonderful "reveals". The finale could be 2 and a half hours of a cowpat in a field and there will posters crying out "you just don't get it". The cowpat is MiB. The field is the Island. Jacob is the breeze and the flys getting stuck to the crap are the candidates for the job of protecting the field.

The relgious crap (Mother says take this drink and drink from it - thud as subtlety hits my head) is the out for the writers here but they know at the same time that no matter what they do they will have a substantial amount of defenders on the interweb explaining it for them anyway.

mewso · 13-05-2010 10:23pm

4

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

In the simpsons comic book guy was askng loads of questions of his favorite writers. The answered "whenever it is strange or dosen't make sense A Wizard did it. I feel like that.

lol yeah but isn't it quite appropriate that this episode featured a mother as one of the main protagonists. Mothers are well know for answering "because it just is" to any question a child asks

the_monkey · 13-05-2010 10:45pm

8

It is amazing that the votes are so evenly distributed !

- anyone have the podcast address for LOST ?

[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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[US/IRL] 6x15 - "Across The Sea" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]