Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

number10a · 17-01-2010 10:12am

lol_leo wrote: »

Just got a call off a courier this morning wanting to know what house I live in. Its the same story every time...I will end up standing outside on the road waiting for him. I can imagine the mobile phone companies are quite happy to leave things as they are.

This problem will keep going on even with the introduction of postcodes. The best that postcodes can ever do is guide a delivery man to the right area. They will never bring him to the correct house. Regardless of what happens, we're still going to be getting those phone calls for many years to come.

thebman · 17-01-2010 4:11pm

number10a wrote: »

This problem will keep going on even with the introduction of postcodes. The best that postcodes can ever do is guide a delivery man to the right area. They will never bring him to the correct house. Regardless of what happens, we're still going to be getting those phone calls for many years to come.

aye and thank Eamon Ryan and his department of crap decisions for that and whatever muppet wrote the report

Funny how postcodes to the home are an invasion of privacy but its important our ISP's log everything we do online :-/

Hypocrites.

baalthor · 18-01-2010 12:08am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Billy Hawkes is mistaken in fact, law and logic. In fact, not having a postcode will not avoid houses having unique addresses. If you give houses numbers and streets names you are making addresses unique. In law, having a unique code for every house would not per se result in a breach of data protection principles in and of itself. In logic, it does not follow that because a house forms part of a person's identity, that therefore it would be a breach of privacy to uniquely identify that house.

Many houses already have unique addresses but that's not the point.
Having a unique post-code will make it easy to identify people in houses from any data submitted with the post code. It will also make it easy for anyone to visit the house where the person in question is located.

For example, if I fill in an on-line form for a health insurance quote and as part of the application have to state that I have a particular disease or condition, let's say Tourettes's Syndrome. The form also asks for my (individual) post-code.
With this information an unscrupulous person could turn up outside my house and start asking me to shout obscenities at them!
On the other hand, with an area based code all they can say is: "A guy with Tourette's lives in this townland/on this street"

Now of course the same thing could happen if I give my address (house number, steeet, etc) but the point is: I know I'm giving them my address; some users of the individual post code may not realise it uniquely identifies their house, those that do realise this may be reluctant to enter the code, thus limiting its usage.

To conclude, I agree with the reservations of the data commissioner; an area code with separate local address/house number is the way to go.

thebman · 18-01-2010 1:09am

baalthor wrote: »

Many houses already have unique addresses but that's not the point.
Having a unique post-code will make it easy to identify people in houses from any data submitted with the post code. It will also make it easy for anyone to visit the house where the person in question is located.

For example, if I fill in an on-line form for a health insurance quote and as part of the application have to state that I have a particular disease or condition, let's say Tourettes's Syndrome. The form also asks for my (individual) post-code.
With this information an unscrupulous person could turn up outside my house and start asking me to shout obscenities at them!
On the other hand, with an area based code all they can say is: "A guy with Tourette's lives in this townland/on this street"

Now of course the same thing could happen if I give my address (house number, steeet, etc) but the point is: I know I'm giving them my address; some users of the individual post code may not realise it uniquely identifies their house, those that do realise this may be reluctant to enter the code, thus limiting its usage.

To conclude, I agree with the reservations of the data commissioner; an area code with separate local address/house number is the way to go.

No if we have unique addresses already then it is the same as a postcode. Your just reducing the information required to identify a location. Where has this magically abuse shouting happened that has unique postcodes? They don't allow you to identify a person, it is a location where many people will most likely reside.

Your also ignoring that the health insurer shouldn't be sharing that information with anyone. That would be the data protection breach.

View · 18-01-2010 2:24am

thebman wrote: »

No if we have unique addresses already ...

Whatever about the merits of postcodes, we don't have unique addresses.

I knew someone who lived in a small midland town on a street/road that went from the town centre straight out in the direction of another neighbouring town. Her address was - 3 "Neighbouring Town" Street. There were two other houses on that street/road with the exact same postal address. It was only local knowledge by the postman that ensured people got their mail.

Likewise, there was a case around 5 years ago near Blackrock in Dublin where a developer built an apartment development called "The Elms". 3 streets away was a long-time road called - "The Elms" where all the locals suddenly got bombarded with junk mail offers for carpets, curtains etc for their "new home". The local Council asked the developer to change the name but he basically said: a) you (the council) approved the name, and, b) it'll cost me money to change all my brochures, advertising etc.

Contrast this with many other countries where addresses are unique to a locality and can usually be fitted on 2 lines.

thebman · 18-01-2010 2:41am

View wrote: »

Whatever about the merits of postcodes, we don't have unique addresses.

I knew someone who lived in a small midland town on a street/road that went from the town centre straight out in the direction of another neighbouring town. Her address was - 3 "Neighbouring Town" Street. There were two other houses on that street/road with the exact same postal address. It was only local knowledge by the postman that ensured people got their mail.

Likewise, there was a case around 5 years ago near Blackrock in Dublin where a developer built an apartment development called "The Elms". 3 streets away was a long-time road called - "The Elms" where all the locals suddenly got bombarded with junk mail offers for carpets, curtains etc for their "new home". The local Council asked the developer to change the name but he basically said: a) you (the council) approved the name, and, b) it'll cost me money to change all my brochures, advertising etc.

Contrast this with many other countries where addresses are unique to a locality and can usually be fitted on 2 lines.

We do in many areas which was my point. I know we don't overall but that just further strengthens the need for individual post codes.

Area post coes are as useful so useless, we might as well drink the money although I suspect half of the money for the reporting went to some fool that has done exactly that with the money

antoinolachtnai · 18-01-2010 10:44am

baalthor wrote: »

For example, if I fill in an on-line form for a health insurance quote and as part of the application have to state that I have a particular disease or condition, let's say Tourettes's Syndrome. The form also asks for my (individual) post-code.
With this information an unscrupulous person could turn up outside my house and start asking me to shout obscenities at them!
On the other hand, with an area based code all they can say is: "A guy with Tourette's lives in this townland/on this street"

First of all, I would say that is extremely unlikely that this sort of information would go back and forth for getting a health insurance quotation.

Maybe a more likely scenario might be that you were looking for insurance for your high-performance car, or for parts for your high-end stereo, and the information is used to rob you.

There are two things here:

1. Abuse of sales/prospecting information. There is no difference between a prospective customer and an actual customer in data protection law. You simply cannot deal with sales/prospect lists in the way you describe. It is illegal. Now, I am not saying it does not happen, but it is against the law and anywhere it happens it should be cracked down on. It is already an issue where there is a unique address. The obvious example of concern would be dunhumby/tesco.

2. A code should be hierarchical, i.e., you don't have to give the full code. For instance, the first five digits could be down to the local small area of a 100 or so houses, and a further three digits could narrow this to the street and then to the house.

Most of the time, the 5-digit code would be enough.

For most addresses, where there are unique street addresses, maybe a 5 digit code would always be enough? There is no compelling need for a unique code for each house. It might be nice, but it is not absolutely necessary.

For rural addresses, there is a need to make addresses unique, sooner or later, by hook or by crook. In a rural area, this is an issue of personal safety when it comes to things like emergency services, not just convenience and cost-saving. Surely it makes sense to do this according to a national scheme rather than making up a different scheme in every different county or townland?

There is little point in trying to impose a code on people in Ireland, especially a per-house scheme. That won't work. People have to be gradually convinced to embrace the system.

thebman · 18-01-2010 11:07am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is little point in trying to impose a code on people in Ireland, especially a per-house scheme. That won't work. People have to be gradually convinced to embrace the system.

I don't see why it needs to be gradual TBH. My neighbour who is in her 60's came over at Xmas to my parents to talk about great it was that we are going to get post codes and they won't have problems with post anymore in her rural area.

My parents thought the same and both of them are in their 50's. Who needs convincing exactly? The system works elsewhere and people want it from what I can see except people that think there are data protection issues which I don't believe there are. Either you want people to know where you live or you don't. If you want to get post/mail then people are going to need to know where you live and everyone wants/needs post so you need people to know where you live.

I don't see what is so difficult to understand why post code addressing would be a good thing. If anything this silly system they seem to be introducing will turn people against postcodes once they realise it won't help mail get to their house, only to their townland/general area.

antoinolachtnai · 18-01-2010 2:44pm

I am not questioning the ability to embrace change. It's just that (and maybe this is my opinion) is that Irish people don't react well to having things imposed upon them.

I agree with you that a system that does not at least have the possibility of dealing with the issue of non-unique addresses is going to leave itself open to obvious criticism.

Noobsaibot21 · 23-01-2010 4:47am

I like the idea of postcodes for additional identification purposes. But I think it should be based on the N. Ireland one's as their's seems easier to remember than a US style bunch of numbers for ZIP codes.

For example:

Heatons Store,
Unit 1
Retail Park 2
Blanchardstown
DB15 2BC

DB15 2BC could be Dublin 15, Second cluster of houses (or maybe Apts/Buildings/relevent address type - probably buildings in this case), Blanchardstown Centre. Such a system allows many unique postcodes for even the most built up of areas. Would have to split up the other counties into a few regions similar to Dublin's current system.

As for a remote area like.... (Opens Google Earth)..... Lehid in Galway maybe could use something like GW61 1ML - This would be similar to N. Ireland postcodes where the number after the first two letters is higher the further you are away from Belfast. There are some places in Wales whereby one solitary house gets it's own postcode

Far better that the proposed system they are looking at with 3 "relevant" letters and three numbers. What will all the RAT's and BAL's do

*BTW, No idea if that is the exact address - I just remember a heatons in Blanchardstown but NOT part of the main shopping centre. :P

antoinolachtnai · 24-01-2010 12:14pm

The research goes against this type of code being more memorable than an all- or mostly-numbers code.

Schraagen and Van Dongen, Designing a licence plate for memorability, Ergonomics, Vol. 48, No. 7, 10 June2005, 796–806

http://www.k-report.eu/diskuse/archiv2008/54342/Design_a_license_plate_for_memorability_ERGONOMICS_2005-141335.pdf

There are obvious practical problems. Some letters sound or look like one another and are liable to be confused.

Sulmac · 01-02-2010 2:08am

Gone to tender now:

Tender process for postal codes launched

MARIE O'HALLORAN

Mon, Feb 01, 2010

MINISTER FOR Communications Eamon Ryan has announced the launch of a tender competition on the implementation of a national post codes system.

Ireland is the only EU country not to have such a system in place and the Minister has set the end of 2011 as the target date for the introduction of the new post codes.

Tenders are invited from consultants, who are expected to begin work at the end of March.

They will advise on the establishment of the system, which is estimated to cost €10-15 million.

Mr Ryan has said the future economy “depends on a national system which can access and collate spatial data”. “A national post code system will deliver benefits not only in terms of postal delivery but across the economy and in Government planning.”

If targets are met, “a national post code system will be assigned and in use throughout the country by the end of next year”.

The Government has approved an alpha-numeric postal code model which will identify groups of properties, with the first letters based on the city or town.

Each postcode will have a geo- co-ordinate at its centre and thus would be compatible with global positioning or navigation systems, allowing integration with GPS and other global navigation satellite technologies, according to the Department of Communications.

In the Dáil last week, Fine Gael criticised the Minister’s plans.

Communications spokesman Simon Coveney said that if the proposed system were introduced to rural Ireland, it would be “no better than what currently exists with the use of local districts or townlands”, because the system would only have the ability to narrow down to between 20 and 50 properties.

Mr Ryan dismissed the claim and insisted: “It will be up to the competitive tendering process to decide on which system.” He said that the tendering process “should deliver quickly in terms of the exact system we introduce”.

The Minister continued: “Post codes are right for this country and, as well as providing an effective postal code system, they should have capability to provide location code facilities for a range of applications that will develop as the smart economy evolves.”

© 2010 The Irish Times

Berwick · 08-02-2010 1:28am

themarcus wrote: »

Not 100% sure, but I think most African countries actually do have postal codes!

I think so, too.

simonj · 08-02-2010 1:14pm

Oilrig wrote: »

Spam Mail is the postal provider (An Post) making money as a "sideline" As long as there is an opt out on being included in these I see no problem. The opt out should be all inclusive, ie all mailshots. That means restrictions on An Post selling our details to private companies who do their own mailshots.

Totally, but it can be funny sometimes. A guy from Singapore who was at Uni with my sister once wrote Mairead - her UK mobile number, and Connemara Ireland on an envelope and it got to her.

I was being sent a cheque by a UK magazine, and was told that they needed a post code to process, being from Connemara if you wrote my name and connemara on a letter, it would probably get to me - but they insisted on a postcode. I told them to use G4 - and it worked

amhrannua.com

Shea O'Meara · 08-02-2010 4:21pm

The Luas, Port Tunnel, M50, e-voting machines, the PULSE system.....
This will be funny as f***.

byrnefm · 05-03-2010 11:13pm

One week until the invitation for tenders close...

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

I wonder how many have replied?

SeanW · 06-03-2010 2:09am

thebman wrote: »

aye and thank Eamon Ryan and his department of crap decisions for that and whatever muppet wrote the report

Funny how postcodes to the home are an invasion of privacy but its important our ISP's log everything we do online :-/

Hypocrites.

Just to expand on this point, hopefully the post code system will be like the U.S. where there is a ZIP code, and and ZIP+4 option, (the ZIP code plus a (possibly unique) 4 digit detail). This means that a dwelling or business can be identified with absolute precision, and would be useful for people in rural areas getting courier deliveries, directing emergency services and whatever else.

Oh wait, I just read the above posts ...
:mad:

Berwick · 06-03-2010 11:38am

byrnefm wrote: »

One week until the invitation for tenders close...

And what will happen after that week?

Overheal · 06-03-2010 3:58pm

SeanW wrote: »

Just to expand on this point, hopefully the post code system will be like the U.S. where there is a ZIP code, and and ZIP+4 option, (the ZIP code plus a (possibly unique) 4 digit detail). This means that a dwelling or business can be identified with absolute precision, and would be useful for people in rural areas getting courier deliveries, directing emergency services and whatever else.

Oh wait, I just read the above posts ...
:mad:

Nobody uses +4 except the post office itself. No website, or insurance quote, or Mother in Law, will ever ask you for your +4. Because nobody remembers their +4, and nobody cares. The +4 is for the Postman himself.

My zip, 29483, is nowhere near enough information to identify my location with. It covers a broad area of several square miles.

But see also 29484. 84 is actually closer to me. But doesnt mean im part of that zip. Thats actually Linconville which kind of exists in a zoning bubble attached and enveloped by Summerville. And then I work in 29485.

And look! Nothing personally identifiable! WOW!

But it still helps me get my mail, get a quote, find out how much shipping costs, etc.

But heres confidence: 29483-5398. Do your worst. The fact is you'll find nothing. Because as I've said, +4 is used internally by the Post Office. Henceforth nobody will ask you for your +4 because it means SFA to anybody but your mail maid.

theg81der · 07-03-2010 12:20am

These f*ckers will make a f*ck of it anyway, they should have a "lets think of all the ways we can waste taxpayers money day" and just get it over with, at least we know what to expect "moving forward".

SeanW · 07-03-2010 1:46am

Overheal wrote: »

Nobody uses +4 except the post office itself. No website, or insurance quote, or Mother in Law, will ever ask you for your +4. Because nobody remembers their +4, and nobody cares. The +4 is for the Postman himself.

Many of us who live in rural areas (in Ireland) have awful trouble directing people to where we live, such as non-postal couriers (UPS, FedUp etc). Many people, who for example live in towns (with unique addresses such as Numer X, Such a street/Estate, Town, County), or live in the countryside but never have to manually direct anyone, will not have use for a post code full stop let alone a 4 digit sub post code. But I, and a few others who do have the above problems, would waste no time obtaining and memorising our new Five-Four codes, were we to get them. Simply to have, for the first time, a unique address identifier to give to courier companies, visitors and when necessary the emergency services.

Edit: obviously, your 5+4 zip code is meaningless to me, presumably only the US Postal Service can trace it to you. Presumably, the implementation of such a system in Ireland would need to be more public, available for SatNavs and suchlike.

thebman · 07-03-2010 4:08am

At the moment and most likely after they arse this up, the only way for my parents to get a delivery is to either stand by the side of the road after giving directions to the courier or to give him Latitude/Longitude for their position and hoping the drivers sat nav supports it.

Honestly its not good enough when the technology exists to solve the problem and privacy reasons are such a bull&&&& reason. Its like the people were told find a way to justify arsing this up so we can give D4 people an address that will be specific to D4 still or we might lose votes in those areas :mad:

Overheal · 07-03-2010 6:53am

SeanW wrote: »

Edit: obviously, your 5+4 zip code is meaningless to me, presumably only the US Postal Service can trace it to you. Presumably, the implementation of such a system in Ireland would need to be more public, available for SatNavs and suchlike.

/the palm

Thats what Street Names and House Numbers are for. 2 Downing Street. 142 Chesapeake Drive somethingville virginia 67485.

Forget about the + fricken 4. You direct people to your home with a street address (House Number, Street Name, City, State/County, Zip)

However in Ireland its mainly Mary and Mike Loughlin on XYZ road. You rely on a postman to remember names. Not house number 142 on XYZ Road. Its a wonder your postal system (and all practical sense of direction) is fecked.

Have you tried to use a GPS? They dont use Zip+4 either. Heck, I dont even use Zip. State, City, House Number, Street Name. Gets me where im going.

I think you guys have a really skewed understanding of what exactly is meant by a postcode. Owing to the fact you dont have one. To that all I can say is your closest example of a Zip code exists today only as Dublin 1,2,3,4,etc.

byrnefm · 20-03-2010 4:16pm

From the department's webpage:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm
I see that the tender for 'project managers' for the implementation of postcodes has passed - has anyone heard if there were many replies to this?

byrnefm · 01-05-2010 12:22pm

Hmm, no new news on
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

and I noticed that if you click on the tender regarding postcodes at the bottom of the page, that it states the deadline date as being 14/04/2010 instead of the original date in March. However, even that was 2.5 weeks ago.

owenc · 01-05-2010 12:24pm

byrnefm wrote: »

Hmm, no new news on
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

and I noticed that if you click on the tender regarding postcodes at the bottom of the page, that it states the deadline date as being 14/04/2010 instead of the original date in March. However, even that was 2.5 weeks ago.

I think its about time they grow up and get some type of postal system in.

The Cush · 02-05-2010 8:00pm

Tender cancelled on 15th April

15/04/2010 14:40:44 Notice Cancelled
This notice has been cancelled. The original deadline date of 12/03/2010 is no longer applicable.

The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources wishes to advise that it has cancelled the tender competition “Project Management: Implementation of a National Postcode System”. We intend to shortly re-tender for the above competition via the e-tenders website.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN140396 Further Info tab

Postcode rollout delayed again after technical glitch

By Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor
Saturday April 17 2010

THE rollout of the new postcodes system was hit by a further delay yesterday when the bidding process for the project was cancelled.

A serious technical error in the tendering documents issued by the Department of Communications resulted in the competition for the contract being halted.

Several domestic and international consultancy firms had tendered for the contract.

The department will be starting the procedure again in the coming weeks and insisted the system was still going ahead.

But the mistake will result in a further delay of six to eight weeks in the rollout of the system -- pushing the implementation date further into next year.

"Obviously there is a delay in the awarding of the tender. The minister hopes this will not unduly delay the implementation of postcodes," a department spokesperson said.

The new postcode system will mean a combination of numbers or letters will be added to every address in the country.

The project, worth between €10m to €15m, is already more than two years past its initial planned timeframe. The project was first announced by then Communications Minister Noel Dempsey in mid-2005, who said it would be up and running by early 2008.

His successor, Eamon Ryan, put an introduction date of early 2011 on the rollout.

It is now expected the postcodes won't be in place until the middle of next year.

But the Labour Party said the cancellation should allow for a new system to be introduced.

Communications spokesperson Liz McManus said an approach based on a unique identifier should be adopted.

"A unique identifier system, provides for a speedy response by emergency services, provides greater efficiency and interaction with GPS technologies and does not require change in names of townlands," she said.

- Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/postcode-rollout-delayed-again-after-technical-glitch-2141982.html

Priority and written questions for the Minister last Tuesday, 27 April on the cancelled tender and attached the Joint Committee on Communications Postcodes Report referred to by Liz McManus

Postal Services.

47. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the reason the tender process for a postcode system has been suspended; if he has read the report on postcodes of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Committee; if he will take on board the recommendation of that report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16860/10]

Deputy Eamon Ryan: An invitation to tender was issued on 29 January, 2010 for consultants to assist in selecting a body to implement and maintain a postcode system. The tender competition closed on 12 March 2010. Subsequently, a technical issue arose relating to the consistency of the request for tenders with the requirements of the public procurement regulations. The issue arose internally in the Department and was not raised by any of the outside interested parties. Bidders were notified by letter of the cancellation of the tender and a notice to that effect was posted on the e-tenders website on 15 April, 2010. A request for tender will be re-issued by my Department this week. The need to issue a new tender will have a limited impact on the timeline for the roll-out of the postcode system. It remains my objective to roll out the system by the end of 2011.

I have received and read the joint committee’s report on postcodes, which is currently being reviewed by my Department. The report makes a series of recommendations relating to the design and implementation of a national postcode system. These include proposals for future-proofing of system design; the publication of a road map for implementation later this year; clarification of issues arising in relation to data protection; the promotion of postcode usage and the retention of familiar and well-used addresses.

Consideration of the details of the report is currently ongoing in my Department. This includes seeking clarification on legal issues raised by the joint committee. I will be happy to reply to the committee in full, as requested, when this is complete.

Deputy Liz McManus: I thank the Minister for reading the report. I was rapporteur for the committee and it was unanimously agreed to publish this report and recommend to the Minister that he adopt a particular approach. I am a little unhappy at his response in terms of what he considers to be the issue raised in the report. Will the Minister agree the key issue and the main recommendation is to have a unique identifier system compatible with GPS? Such a system would have significant benefits across the board. Will he state whether he plans to continue with this new tendering process with the old model of using a cluster of properties rather than using the unique identifier system? I urge him to use the opportunity of this delay. In his initial statement he said that it would be in early 2011 and now he refers to the end of 2011. If this gives us a better system I am quite happy to go along with that. However, the main point to be stressed — the Minister did not clarify it and I am concerned he is avoiding it — is whether he will pursue the unique identifier option. Does he intend to talk to the Data Protection Commissioner as soon as possible in order to ensure the issue of data protection is cleared up? Is he satisfied the approach he has adopted in the past of using the cluster of up to 50 houses, is appropriate to the needs of today?

Deputy Eamon Ryan: I am very pleased the Deputy opposite is now supporting the post and location codes proposals.

Deputy Liz McManus: I am supportive of this but not of the Minister’s system.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: My understanding in earlier statements was that there was opposition. I welcome political support across the House for a post code and a location code. I have consistently said we must have both. In reply to the Deputy’s question, there has to be a system that provides a unique household identifier. It might not be just a household but it could also include other street infrastructure which will require a code, such as locating a bus stop. A location code is another example of the benefits of this system. I have always planned to have a code which provides for an efficient postal service and also includes those location code characteristics. In my discussions with a number of parties I have consistently examined how this can be achieved. With the adoption of the post code model recommended by the body set up to suggest the model and by the use of additional digits it is possible to get such a locational code down to the building. Over the past two years I have had a couple of meetings with the Data Protection Commissioner on exactly the issue raised in the joint committee report which I welcome. The concerns originally expressed by the Data Protection Commissioner in 2006 regarding privacy are valid concerns. These concerns can be addressed in a way that allows the development of a location code while at the same time maintaining privacy where appropriate.

Deputy Liz McManus: This sounds like a real mishmash. Frankly, I would not support a proposal that adopts an old technology pretending it is a new technology. Will the Minister accept the costs involved in having a clustering system, and maintaining it because of new build and old buildings being demolished, is a costly approach?

If we can clear the data protection issue, the technology is available to have a unique-identifier system which would generate enormous benefits not least to Departments, but also to the emergency services and others. It is all contained in the report which I do not need to restate.

Will the Minister try not to straddle both sides on this matter? I would have more respect for him if he said he was sticking with the cluster system. While I may not agree with such a decision, at least it would be a position. To have two systems, however, on top of each other is nonsensical.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: The expert advice I received said it is absolutely possible.

Deputy Liz McManus: It is not desirable, however.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: There are real benefits to having a postcode system that works on the basis recommended by the postcode board.

Deputy Liz McManus: No, the Minister is wrong.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: There are real benefits with memorability and being able to apply geodirectory codes and the root network systems in place to a postcode network. Crucially, I insisted at all times on a facility within the postcode system to develop a location-code system that could go right down to a building. This would allow emergency services to get to the right house or Departments to get the level of information they needed for individual houses and, at the same time, work with the Data Protection Commissioner, to protect the householder’s privacy where appropriate. I have been told by the experts it is possible to achieve both outcomes. This is what I am setting out to achieve.

We can come back to this in later questions but the Deputy opposite is hitching her wagon to one particular company and technical solution.

Deputy Liz McManus: No.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I am afraid we must move on.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: I prefer the route we have chosen which will employ consultants to assess this and put it out to a tendering competition which will meet the criteria we have set. As long as it meets the criteria of being both a good postcode and location-code system, I will be satisfied.

Deputy Liz McManus: That is not accurate. I must clarify this. The Minister, in his statement on the introduction of postcodes, hitched his wagon to the cluster system. The report shows, in my humble view because I am not an expert on this, that the unique-identifier system is the best postcode system we can have and is appropriate to our times. To meld the two systems——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Another debate elsewhere would be required to resolve this matter.

Deputy Liz McManus: ——would be expensive and inefficient, ending up with a mess.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Does the Minister want to give a brief response?

Deputy Eamon Ryan: It is very possible and I believe it is the right thing to do.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100427.xml&Node=H3-2#H3-2

Postal Services.

52. Deputy Deirdre Clune asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he has changed his approach to the roll out of the postcode system here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16581/10]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): I have not changed my philosophy or my approach to the roll out of a national postcode system in Ireland. I continue to believe a smart economy requires that the underlying infrastructure supports enterprises based on knowledge and innovation. For this, an ability to collate and assess data spatially is a prerequisite. This is where postcodes play a key role and where they can deliver economic and social benefits across the whole economy.

As the Deputy is aware, the Government has approved the implementation of a postcode system as recommended by the National Postcode Project Board. This Board, which comprised representatives from Government Departments, together with public and private sector organisations, was established to recommend the most technically appropriate postcode system for Ireland, design an implementation plan and assess the costs and benefits of postcodes. In the course of its deliberations, the Board looked at a number of postcode models and technologies including postal sector models and a number of spatial and hybrid postcode models taking into account a number of factors including memorability, likely uptake by the public and ability to adapt to emerging technologies. The model recommended, and since approved by Government, is an alpha-numeric, publicly available and accessible postal sector model.

Each postcode will have a geo-coordinate at its centre and consequently, would be compatible with global positioning or navigation systems, allowing integration with GPS and other Global Navigation Satellite technologies. Indeed, applications based on such systems, become much more readily accessible to the public through the use of a postcode. My officials and I are currently working to implement this project. That delivery will be effected by way of a competitive tender process. A competition will be re-tendered shortly to select a body that will assist the Department in managing the delivery of a working postcodes system. Because of the need to re-tender I envisage some slippage in the originally targeted date for introduction of a postcode system. However, I still expect to have rolled out a national postcodes system in 2011.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100427.XML&Node=1379#N1379

Postal Services.

76. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the reason the tender process for a postcode system has been suspended; his views on the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources report on postcodes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16628/10]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): An invitation to tender was issued on 29th January, 2010 for consultants to assist in selecting a body to implement and maintain a postcode system. The tender competition closed on the 12th March, 2010. Subsequently, a technical issue arose relating to the consistency of the Request for Tenders with the requirements of the Public Procurement Regulations. Bidders were notified by letter of the cancellation of the tender and a notice to that effect was posted on the e-tenders website on the 15th April, 2010. It is intended to re-issue the tender in the near future. I have received the Joint Oireachtas Committee Report on postcodes which is being reviewed by my Department. As requested by the Joint Committee, I will revert to the Committee with my views on the Report in due course.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100427.XML&Node=1533#N1533

Postal Services.

342. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the cost of the introduction of post codes; the way in which this will be funded; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17016/10]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Estimates of the costs of the introduction of postcodes are contained in the Report of the Postcode Project Board, which was published in 2006 and a Cost Benefit analysis published in 2008. Copies of both reports are available on the website of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

The non-recurring initial capital cost of the establishment of postcodes will be €15m. Recurring costs are estimated at €2.5m annually. The actual gross costs, which will be incurred on foot of postcode implementation in the public and private sectors, will be determined by the proposal which is chosen for system implementation by public procurement. The net costs of postcode implementation will be a function of both the gross costs and the gross benefits accruing over time as a result of the implementation of the project. These again will be determined by the proposal, which is chosen for system implementation through public procurement.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100427.XML&Node=2797#N2797

byrnefm · 04-05-2010 10:32pm

I really wonder why a technical error requires the re-tendering of the entire process, which hasn't been re-tendered yet. Surely it's just a matter of issuing a new 'apply-by' date instead of cancelling all applications and telling them to re-apply again in a few weeks? Oh well...

Scofflaw · 05-05-2010 2:01am

byrnefm wrote: »

I really wonder why a technical error requires the re-tendering of the entire process, which hasn't been re-tendered yet. Surely it's just a matter of issuing a new 'apply-by' date instead of cancelling all applications and telling them to re-apply again in a few weeks? Oh well...

It gets messy - opens up opportunities for people to claim that the shift of the deadline in some way put them at a disadvantage, that the change in tender requirements wasn't clear, etc etc. Cleaner, legally, to say "that tender is cancelled". Also, most of the cost and effort in running a tender comes after the deadline.

cordially,
Scofflaw

byrnefm · 12-05-2010 11:16pm

I see the new tender is on e-tenders:
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAY149896

with an explanation why at:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

The new deadline for tenders is June 22nd at noon.

oncevotedff · 16-05-2010 1:17pm

byrnefm wrote: »

The new deadline for tenders is June 22nd at noon.

Any particular year?

garydubh · 16-05-2010 1:37pm

oncevotedff wrote: »

Any particular year?

2008 was the Target Year! - wonder did they mean 2018?

garydubh · 16-05-2010 1:41pm

byrnefm wrote: »

I see the new tender is on e-tenders:
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAY149896

with an explanation why at:
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

The new deadline for tenders is June 22nd at noon.

............So nothing to do with Cross Party criticism of current plan in Oireachtas Postcodes report of 31 March 2010?:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=14699&CatID=78

Merch · 16-05-2010 1:48pm

Whats wrong with Longitude/latitude, oh people too dumb

garydubh · 16-05-2010 2:05pm

Merch wrote: »

Whats wrong with Longitude/latitude, oh people too dumb

The fact that you got it the wrong way around is one reason to begin with!
.......it is Latitude and Longitude - the wrong way around and Maynooth will have moved to Madagascar!

Then there is the fact that there are 3 different formats of Latitude and Longitude and several other variations related to the way hemispheres are presented and finally the number of decimal places and characters needed to define a single property - all a bit confusing for those that are not familiar!
.....................And if it is confusing just talking about it what would it be like when you are trying to find Arklow and end up Aherlow because you got the Lat wrong and the Long short!

byrnefm · 25-06-2010 5:46pm

Has anyone heard of any word of who has applied to run the postcode board?

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

The deadline for submissions was June 22nd.

Curious!

Scofflaw · 25-06-2010 6:33pm

byrnefm wrote: »

Has anyone heard of any word of who has applied to run the postcode board?

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

The deadline for submissions was June 22nd.

Curious!

You should be able to find out at the eTenders site whenever the contract award notice is published. I would imagine that the process of determining the tender winner will take several weeks, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

garydubh · 26-06-2010 8:19pm

byrnefm wrote: »

Has anyone heard of any word of who has applied to run the postcode board?

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

The deadline for submissions was June 22nd.

Curious!

That tender was only to decide on yet another advisor - an advisor to help form a tender to select someone to implement a code which is supposed to be decided by competitive process... even though the Minister has stated that he is implementing a code which will only allow navigation to the centre of up to 50 properties - and in a townland the centre could be the top of a mountain! And the recent Oireachtas Postcodes report criticised the Government Plan and suggested a GPS based solution see page 17 here:- http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=15006&CatID=78

This was all supposed to have happened by 1st Jan 2008 - I would not be hoping for much before 1st Jan 2012 to be honest !!! I would imagine that a modern GPS alternative will be in place long before that..............

garydubh · 17-07-2010 5:28pm

PON Codes are now Loc8 Codes

thebman · 18-07-2010 1:50pm

following this with interest. I notice Garmin have this page also:
http://www.garmin.com/sites/uk/loc8/

The government efforts do seem a shambles and I hope this takes off. Do you know what Garmin devices support loc8 codes or do all of them do so but require the unlock code? I would like to know before I buy if I'm buying an old stock model that will not support the codes.

garydubh · 18-07-2010 5:03pm

thebman wrote: »

following this with interest. I notice Garmin have this page also:
http://www.garmin.com/sites/uk/loc8/

The government efforts do seem a shambles and I hope this takes off. Do you know what Garmin devices support loc8 codes or do all of them do so but require the unlock code? I would like to know before I buy if I'm buying an old stock model that will not support the codes.

All new Garmin Nuvi 12xx, 13xx and 14xx have Loc8 loaded and unlocked from now on.
Unlocks for pre purchased units ( 12 ,13,14) available from loc8code.com for download over the next few days. Unlocks for some other older models to be made available over the next few months.

If you want Loc8 on a specific model fill out on feedback here: http://www.myloc8ion.com/about-us/

thebman · 18-07-2010 5:23pm

thanks purchased a 1310 today, on special offer in Argos at the moment.

garydubh · 18-07-2010 5:52pm

thebman wrote: »

thanks purchased a 1310 today, on special offer in Argos at the moment.

If you do not see the words Loc8 Code at

WhereTo/Address/Postal Code - then the unit was in stock with Argos for a while and will have to be updated and unlocked (no cost)

You can update the firmware when you register the device with Garmin and unlocking the Loc8 functionality will be available from Loc8code.com in the next few days (was to be last week but tech issue has delayed)

garydubh · 20-07-2010 8:18pm

garydubh wrote: »

If you do not see the words Loc8 Code at

WhereTo/Address/Postal Code - then the unit was in stock with Argos for a while and will have to be updated and unlocked (no cost)

You can update the firmware when you register the device with Garmin and unlocking the Loc8 functionality will be available from Loc8code.com in the next few days (was to be last week but tech issue has delayed)

Loc8 Code unlocks for 12xx,13xx and 14xx Garmin Nuvi SatNavs now available at loc8code website: http://www.myloc8ion.com/index.php/unlock/

byrnefm · 14-10-2010 11:08pm

There's a small update on the website:

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm

Project Status (September 2010)

Following on from the completion of the tender process as set out above, PA Consulting Services Ltd were appointed in September 2010 to provide Project Management services for the project.

The model to be adopted is an alpha numeric postcode model that is also capable of being refined into a location based code. The Department is targeting the end of 2011 for implementation of a National Postcode System (NPS).

byrnefm · 05-01-2011 10:01pm

Another small update... so does this mean they had a project manager for two months before they started looking for a group to look after the postcode system for implementation? (same site as above)

Project Status (November 2010)

A Prior Information Notice (PIN Notice) has now been published on the etenders website to inform the market of the intention to tender for a body to implement and maintain the National Postcode System (NPS).

The Cush · 06-01-2011 2:11am

This from Tuesday's Irish Times

Postcodes could be introduced across State by year's end
HARRY McGEE Political Correspondent

Tue, Jan 04, 2011

POSTCODES ARE likely to be introduced throughout the State by the end of the year, following Government clearance for the tender process for the project to begin.

The Cabinet agreed to the procurement system for the national postcodes at its last meeting before Christmas, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan has confirmed. The process to award the contract for the project – with estimated costs of less than €15 million – will be completed by summer.

Mr Ryan said the introduction of postcodes will lead to significant savings and efficiencies for the State. It would deliver more comprehensive statistical and geographical data, as well as open up new revenue streams, particularly for An Post.

The Government has approved the recommendations of consultants that the postcodes should be alpha-numeric, incorporating letters and numbers.

Dublin is the only location in the State with postal codes. Ireland is the only country in the EU, or among OECD countries, that does not have a nationwide postcode system.

Mr Ryan said one of the most important features of the system would be “memorability”. In practice that means a location will be identified by its initials, in a manner roughly analogous to the vehicle registration system.

The system will also retain elements of the existing Dublin post codes. The current postcode of Dublin 7 could begin D07 and continue with numbers that pinpoint the location to a particular property. Similarly, the postcode for addresses in other areas will contain letters that readily identify the area, followed by a series of numbers that pinpoint the property. Possible permutations might include: GLY (Galway); CK (Cork); and KKY (Kilkenny).

A departmental briefing paper refers to two models – a “postal sector” model and a location model – being combined. The postal sector model would divide the country into post towns (identified by letter) and each post town into groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties (identified by number). There would be approximately 200 post towns.

The paper says the model is capable of being refined into a location-based code – in other words identifying each individual property within a post town. It says this hybrid model will provide the basis for the procurement for a national postcode system.

Several companies developing global positioning technology – notably Garmin – have devised all-Ireland digital address codes that provide precise addresses. While these codes will not provide the basis for the national system, the Department of Communications said these companies were free to tender. The department believes the availability of codes will ensure more efficient sharing of information between agencies and companies. It also says it will help the Central Statistics Office unlock more data and help emergency services.

The main issue that has divided the Cabinet relates to whether the codes should be in Irish or English. The document discloses the Minister has received representations from Irish language organisations, arguing in favour of the Irish version of the post-town name.

Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties. In Gaeltacht areas, the letters would refer to the Irish placename.

Mr Ryan said memorability would be important. “I think it should be something you retain in your mind, a postal code that can make sense for the area and is not just a random series of letters and numbers.”

He also said An Post, after initial reluctance, had become more receptive. “It recognises that the postal business has to change and look at new business streams and opportunities. Postal codes will help new internet business.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0104/1224286701565.html

byrnefm · 06-01-2011 11:27pm

Thanks for posting the article, The Cush! I hadn't seen that article

axer · 06-01-2011 11:46pm

What is wrong with LOC8 codes instead? - they sound more accurate.

thebman · 07-01-2011 12:50am

axer wrote: »

What is wrong with LOC8 codes instead? - they sound more accurate.

Roughly, D4 heads want to stay D4 heads and the government must chose the most expensive, least effective solution for everything that is available on the market in an attempt to please everyone which can't be done so we are left with something that costs crap loads to maintain and implement that nobody wants to use.

Its gonna be awesome!

Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

Comments