Cataclysm raiding changes (Massive)

Dustaz · 26-04-2010 4:19pm #1

This is the biggest change to raiding since they went from 40 to 25 players:

We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

Dustaz · 26-04-2010 4:29pm

This is such a big change that it will need a lot more info to be available before i can comment on what i think it means.

At this point though i really cant see what the point of raiding 25 man would be. Guild achievements and talents might change that but at the moment, whats the point in running a 25 man guild when 10 man is so so so much easier to adminsitrate.

Its also unquestionably the death of 'epic raiding'. Arthas was actually a pretty good fight 10 man, but remember Kael? Illidan? Yep, thats just not possible anymore

Actually thinking about this, its BAD for raiding. As things stand now, 10 player iterations of all raids are MUCH easier than 25 player versions. There has only been one fight ever that was harder in 10 than 25 and that was Sarth3d and that was purely down to having to have 3 tanks (now that its zergable its easier than 25 again). Nothing else has ever come close. So 10 player raids are quite a good place for people who 1. arent as geared 2. arent as good 3. dont have time to raid 25. Now with this change to allow for the same loot they are going to try to standardise the fights. I cant see how they are going to do that. But if they manage to do it then either 10 man raids become much harder and a huge raft of people who are currently only capable of 10 mans as we know it wont be able to raid due to it being 'too hard' or 25 man raids will become as easy as 10 man is right now. If that happens, its the death of raiding in wow. Reset day > Clear raid. Done. Nothing to do for the rest of the week.

Ivan · 26-04-2010 6:28pm

It seems to me as though the circle is complete...

10 man raids will drop the same loot but less of it, 25 mans will take more people and drop the same loot. Why then would you go to the effort of dealing with the additional melodrama of 25 people over 10 if you didn't have to.

Granted, I only skimmed through the notes but that is incredibly depressing.

As you also go on to mention, it will mean guilds will be raiding even less per week and the differences between hardcore and casual guilds/players will become even smaller again.

Very disappointing on Blizzard's side of this though I cannot help but see a shadow of their Activision overlords, behind it all.

I'm firmly of the belief that this is the year that we see a very rapid decline in WoW's playerbase. Between The Old Republic and potentially the most damaging expansion for hardcore players ever, Blizzard will have to produce something spectacular every few months to keep them interested. And I think once the hardcore leave, the casuals will find things alot more difficult and ultimately, leave due to their very casualness.

I hope to be mistaken, but I believe this is the last (successful) expansion we'll see for World of Warcraft.

TheDoc · 26-04-2010 6:36pm

Great news for me.

Instantly spurred up onversation over on the private outlanders players forums of setting up a 10man guild for cataclysm. Like you said easy to administrate and organise, and from just friends and irish players alone theres atleast 14.

We have been arranging weekly runs doing 11/12 in icc10 for well over 6 weeks now, so the chance to do it officially as a guild come Cata sounds amazing, as I love playing as part of that setup, and whats better then playing with people you like.

This may or may not cause the demise of the BIG guilds but I doubt it, however having some quality players discuss the notion of leaving their largly populated guilds to join a smaller one is weird.

Peronsally I like it because I just prefer 10man raids. They are more social and interactive, you cant slack off at all without being noticed and they are my preference.

I've started running full icc25 runs now with a new guild I joined recently and although its fun its very impersonal, know one really knows I'm there or who I am.

I'm a hardcore player (timewise) with casual preferences ( lower barriers to entry raiding) and cant wait to see the full lowdown on this

I also cant wait to see the tears on the forums

Magill · 26-04-2010 7:17pm

I think that alot of 25 man raiders have this idea in their head that 10 mans are alot easier than 25. I guess they are right in a way, however its mainly alot easier because 25 man raiders will usually outgear 10 mans by a long way. Ulduar 10 might have been easier for people, but it really wasn't that much easier if you were doing it in nax10 gear, likewise, when ICC10 was first released 25 man raiders where usually in full 245/258 gear, and already outgeared the damn instance so ofc its not gonna be as hard.

Like you said however, im unsure how exactly they are gonna balance it, they will have to make 25 man raids easier or 10 mans harder (Gear being the same) or they are gonna have to design the boss encounters differently.

I personally would have kept the gear the same as it is now, but put both on the same lockout. That way, you either in a 25 man guild or a 10 man guild, both would have equal epeen.

It does sound like they will just dumb down everything tho.

Ivan · 26-04-2010 7:20pm

It's all faceroll anyway and has been for a while. The difficulty is how forgiving the encounter is. In a 10 man you have significantly less players available to make an error and wipe the raid. That alone makes it easier. Then you need less players so easier to organise, every 25 man loot your members have on essentially outgears the equivalent 10 man...

Hell, there are a whole host of reasons as to why 10 man is easier than 25 man.

Robby91 · 26-04-2010 7:26pm

I also cant wait to see the tears on the forums

Om nom nom, delicious tears :P I wonder what the Ensidia blogs will be like after this one - I was looking at it the other day (after following a link to the blog from Wowhead) and it seemed to be endless QQ'ing.

While I don't know if I'll be raiding come Cataclysm (gogo bad internet connection!), it's a bit half-and-half for me. I don't like the idea that it's pretty much one or the other (although, guild depending, of course) but, as with TheDoc, I much prefer 10mans to 25mans so I can do what I enjoy, without being restricted from progressing by lower-level gear.

Why then would you go to the effort of dealing with the additional melodrama of 25 people over 10 if you didn't have to.

Well, it caters for everyone - the long-standing guilds who run 25mans won't (or, at least, shouldn't) have the melodrama since they've been together for however long, and newer guilds aren't completely restricted to weaker gear due to difficulty with recruiting.

But if they manage to do it then either 10 man raids become much harder and a huge raft of people who are currently only capable of 10 mans as we know it wont be able to raid due to it being 'too hard' or 25 man raids will become as easy as 10 man is right now

You're extremely quick to dismiss this change... $:\$

You make it sound as though it has to be one extreme or the other, without any middle ground whatsoever, and don't forget the option of Heroic modes - if the hardcore players feel that normal modes aren't sufficient, they can always ramp up the difficulty once the Heroic version of the encounter is available.

Nothing to do for the rest of the week.

More time to do something outside of WoW? :P

At any rate, nothing to do but wait and see, I guess. Who knows what may become of it.

Dustaz · 26-04-2010 11:15pm

Magill wrote: »

I think that alot of 25 man raiders have this idea in their head that 10 mans are alot easier than 25

Thats because they are.

There is no disputing this.

10 mans are and always have been a lot easier than 25 mans. Yes, the 25 gear helps but its not all of it.

Im 9/12 HM on an ALT for gods sake.

Overheal · 26-04-2010 11:45pm

Ivan wrote: »

It seems to me as though the circle is complete...

10 man raids will drop the same loot but less of it, 25 mans will take more people and drop the same loot. Why then would you go to the effort of dealing with the additional melodrama of 25 people over 10 if you didn't have to.

Granted, I only skimmed through the notes but that is incredibly depressing.

*facepalm*

"We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people."

As you also go on to mention, it will mean guilds will be raiding even less per week and the differences between hardcore and casual guilds/players will become even smaller again.

Very disappointing on Blizzard's side of this though I cannot help but see a shadow of their Activision overlords, behind it all.

I'm firmly of the belief that this is the year that we see a very rapid decline in WoW's playerbase. Between The Old Republic and potentially the most damaging expansion for hardcore players ever, Blizzard will have to produce something spectacular every few months to keep them interested. And I think once the hardcore leave, the casuals will find things alot more difficult and ultimately, leave due to their very casualness.

I hope to be mistaken, but I believe this is the last (successful) expansion we'll see for World of Warcraft.

Define Hardcore Gamer.

Also from my reading, there would be more Raids in Parallel to eachother to accommodate the hardcore element.

"We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week."

I find Reading the article, rather than skimming through and jumping to absurd conclusions, to be quite beneficial.

][cEMAN** · 27-04-2010 12:22am

Dustaz wrote: »

Thats because they are.

There is no disputing this.

10 mans are and always have been a lot easier than 25 mans. Yes, the 25 gear helps but its not all of it.

But you already stated that OS3D10 was harder than 25. I think it's just been a case so far of pick n mix when it comes to difficulty.

I personally prefer 10 man raiding to 25 man because it's more personal, and you get a better idea of who's doing what. At the same time though, I preferred the 25 man challenge of organising the raids. Dealing with fake DC's and ragequits.

Part of the social aspect has been the challenge of the ability to keep up larger raids whilst keeping a middle ground with everyone you raid with, rather than having a smaller core group, and a few add-on/straglers.

This I feel will just kill the 25man PUG side, and push more towards what TBC did for vanilla - disband, or splinter guilds who were solid and played well together, over the extra time and effort that it took to get 25 mans organised. 10 man pugs will prosper, especially alt runs.

At least it'll show the serious lack of social responsibility most people have in this game. The online personas have been too troll based in a larger group setup.

Magill · 27-04-2010 12:24am

Ivan wrote: »

In a 10 man you have significantly less players available to make an error and wipe the raid. That alone makes it easier.

Works both ways, 1 person dead in a 10 man raid is ALOT worse than 1 person dead in a 25 man raid

Ivan wrote: »

It's all faceroll anyway and has been for a while. The difficulty is how forgiving the encounter is.

So you've face rolled 12/12 ICC10HC ?

Magill · 27-04-2010 12:48am

Dustaz wrote: »

Thats because they are.

There is no disputing this.

10 mans are and always have been a lot easier than 25 mans. Yes, the 25 gear helps but its not all of it.

Im 9/12 HM on an ALT for gods sake.

Whats your alts gear like, pretty good im guessing ? Probably have some mains in your group ? Have you killed LK10HC on your main?

I accept that 10 mans are easier, but they are nowhere near as easy as you'd think if you were progressing only via 10 man content, starting ICC10 in 232 gear isn't that easy to be fair(Im talking about your full raid being in 232 gear, no boosting), trust me you certainly wouldn't have been facerolling your way to arthas.

Gear is a HUGE factor, the difference in performance between someone in full 251 gear and someone in full 264 gear is probably 10-20%.

jabberwock · 27-04-2010 7:14am

Magill wrote: »

Gear is a HUGE factor, the difference in performance between someone in full 251 gear and someone in full 264 gear is probably 10-20%.

Indeed it is. From reading the forum post millions of pages the reoccurring thing was that 10 man was easier and why would you bother to do 25.

Bull**** if you are actually in the gear it was balanced for not in there steamrolling with 25man gear.

They will be tuned for the 10/25 man versions. IMO it's not going to be anything like the differences that we see now in raid between them. >.>

Dustaz, link please for your alt with 9/12 ICC10Hc.

degrassinoel · 27-04-2010 10:15am

i think its a good idea, smaller guilds will thrive. dustaz, that post was straight out of tradechat man. not everyone can raid every day or spam 10/25 every reset. like it or not blizzard are always going to be catering for casuals.

Dustaz · 27-04-2010 10:27am

Overheal, Ivans comments show full comprehension of the changes to me. I sort of agree with his post.

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;65601162']But you already stated that OS3D10 was harder than 25. I think it's just been a case so far of pick n mix when it comes to difficulty.

As i said the only reason this was harder was it required an extra tank. So you lost a dps.

I personally prefer 10 man raiding to 25 man because it's more personal, and you get a better idea of who's doing what.

I prefer 25 man for similar reasons, i prefer the more social atmospher with more people and the extra depth that you get from raids designed for that many people.

Magill wrote: »

Works both ways, 1 person dead in a 10 man raid is ALOT worse than 1 person dead in a 25 man raid

Thats a good point and a valid argument alright.

So you've face rolled 12/12 ICC10HC ?

Thats a stupid thing to say. LK 10HK is the hardest 10 man fight weve seen so far. Theres nothing comparable to it in ICC and theres nothing comparable to it in TOC. I guess Algalon 10 is the nearest thing to it in wotlk. The 10 man normals are all faceroll, lk normal takes a bit of practice, the heroics are mostly faceroll (sindra and pp are challenging i guess)

Magill wrote: »

Whats your alts gear like, pretty good im guessing ? Probably have some mains in your group ? Have you killed LK10HC on your main?

Yes, my alts gear is decent enough from constant alt runs since toc. No mains in the group, its a pure alt group. We still havent killed LK10HC with our mains yet. We got the frost drakes and put the HC kill on hold till were at him in 25's.

I accept that 10 mans are easier, but they are nowhere near as easy as you'd think if you were progressing only via 10 man content, starting ICC10 in 232 gear isn't that easy to be fair(Im talking about your full raid being in 232 gear, no boosting), trust me you certainly wouldn't have been facerolling your way to arthas.

Fair point, at the moment NOONE does that though so its hard to judge. Everyone does 25 pugs, voa pugs so people do have some 25 gear for 10s. If this is taken out of the equation then they become harder alright but it doesnt change the mechanic of only having 10 players.

jabberwock wrote: »

Dustaz, link please for your alt with 9/12 ICC10Hc.

You link yours and ill link mine

Dustaz · 27-04-2010 10:31am

degrassinoel wrote: »

i think its a good idea, smaller guilds will thrive. dustaz, that post was straight out of tradechat man. not everyone can raid every day or spam 10/25 every reset. like it or not blizzard are always going to be catering for casuals.

0o

What part was straight out of tradechat?

I dont WANT to raid every day and spam 10/25 every reset, its a pain in the arse. Im sick to the back teeth of icc. At one point i was doing 4 10 man runs a week and 1 extra 25 on top of my mains raiding schedule. Im sort of looking forward to the fact i can only do 1 or the other.

I also think that the game caters plenty to the casual at the moment. Casuals get to see all the content, they get comparable gear. However, i still maintain that 25 fights are harder and should be rewarded as such.

nix · 27-04-2010 11:47am

Casuals can **** off and play super mario if ya ask me, this is a disgrace.

MMO's are ment to take alot of time to get items, rewards are best served as rewards. I'm growning tired of this **** they are doing, they are making this game WAY too easy, and boohoo i only have an hour an evening to spare and blah blah blah

Whats annoying is they are doing this not because its the right thing to do for the game, but because it makes more $$$ :rolleyes:

I spend the majority of my time these days jumping around dala bored out of my head as the content is too easy and ive nothing to do.

When i used to indulge in alot of world pvp fighting over grounds for farming mats for particular things guild needed, like resistance gear, flasks and what not, not anymore now its handed to us yay!

Swear to ****in god, its only a matter of time before we see epic items proccing on level up and throwing a saddle onto any mob turns it into a mount....

RARRRR :mad:

Blowfish · 27-04-2010 12:01pm

Dustaz wrote: »

Fair point, at the moment NOONE does that though so its hard to judge. Everyone does 25 pugs, voa pugs so people do have some 25 gear for 10s. If this is taken out of the equation then they become harder alright but it doesnt change the mechanic of only having 10 players.

Here's a list of the current top 10 man strict (i.e. no 25 man gear, no 25 man achievements) guilds. None of them have taken out 10 man LK HC yet. Granted, part of that would be due to the fact that there aren't that many guilds sticking to 10 man strict, but it still goes to show that it isn't necessarily all that easy.

Dustaz · 27-04-2010 1:21pm

Theres only been 140 LK HC10 kills at all and how long has it been out? And thats with people who are geared to the teeth from 25 man AND have a 10% buff - Its a REALLY Hard fight. Of course a strict 10 is going to struggle with it.

Id be suprised if there was more than 1 or 2 posters here that have downed it so far. Certainly we know that noone here has done 25hc which is even harder.

Blowfish · 27-04-2010 1:48pm

Dustaz wrote: »

Theres only been 140 LK HC10 kills at all and how long has it been out? And thats with people who are geared to the teeth from 25 man AND have a 10% buff - Its a REALLY Hard fight. Of course a strict 10 is going to struggle with it.

Id be suprised if there was more than 1 or 2 posters here that have downed it so far. Certainly we know that noone here has done 25hc which is even harder.

Precisely my point. Considering how few people have actually downed it even with an extra tier of gear, it seems pretty silly when people are saying that raiding will be too easy in Cata when they'll be doing the same fight, except without the gear advantage.

Gummy Panda · 27-04-2010 2:04pm

I don't see what the big issue is. People who like the atmosphere of a 25 man raid will still continue to raid 25 man and small guilds sho do 10 man raids won't feel the need to artificially expand their guild in fear of their best raiders leaving for 25 mans and better loot.

Berns · 27-04-2010 2:51pm

Thing is atm guilds could aim for 25's, do 10's if not enough and try 25 later if get the numbers. Come cata you won't have the opportunity to do both and guilds will be choosing one or the other and most likely 10's.

See the top guilds on our server are having trouble doin 25's atm and 1 even switched to 10's solely already with the ones who want 25 tryin to set up a new guild. ie prob anyone who aint in the elite 10 for hc's

Our guild just about gettin the numbers for 25 mans now and am scared of it focusin solely on 10 mans come cata. Sure can say change guilds/server but on a guild/server so long ya feel part of a community etc.

Magill · 27-04-2010 3:31pm

The one good thing that will come of this is that blizzard will be forced to produce alot more content, because there will be a lot less to do in cata.

witless1 · 27-04-2010 3:35pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Here's a list of the current top 10 man strict (i.e. no 25 man gear, no 25 man achievements) guilds. None of them have taken out 10 man LK HC yet. Granted, part of that would be due to the fact that there aren't that many guilds sticking to 10 man strict, but it still goes to show that it isn't necessarily all that easy.

The guild that is ranked 29 in the world, Elysium, was my old guild on Hellscream and I was an officer in it. They took the decision at the start of WOTLK to go down this strict route because they saw how casual the content was going. For the time invested initially you could go raid 25 mans and clear all content in the same time scale. That's partly the reason I left them, wanted to stick with 25 man raiding and it is only now that the expansion has played out that I realised I should have stuck with it for the challenge. They took down Yogg + 0, Algalon and ToGC with the gear that the encounters were intended for and they got a good challenge and good kick out of it. I still visit their forums regularly and they sing the praises of the developers for how well tuned an encounter is. I think the small percentage of the population that experience the pure 10 mans will rejoice at this decision because the rest of us are blinded by how easy it is to steamroll content with essentially gear that is a tier above it, or 20% better as an earlier poster said.

Having said that, if the gear that drops from 10 + 25 is going to be the same quality (iLvl, stats etc.) like they stated then the above scenario is going to be hard to replicate I think. The 10 and 25 man version will be tuned for the same gear level rather then the current 10 + 25 system we have.

Overheal · 27-04-2010 3:52pm

nix wrote: »

Casuals can **** off and play super mario if ya ask me, this is a disgrace.

MMO's are ment to take alot of time to get items, rewards are best served as rewards. I'm growning tired of this **** they are doing, they are making this game WAY too easy, and boohoo i only have an hour an evening to spare and blah blah blah

Whats annoying is they are doing this not because its the right thing to do for the game, but because it makes more $$$ :rolleyes:

I spend the majority of my time these days jumping around dala bored out of my head as the content is too easy and ive nothing to do.

When i used to indulge in alot of world pvp fighting over grounds for farming mats for particular things guild needed, like resistance gear, flasks and what not, not anymore now its handed to us yay!

Swear to ****in god, its only a matter of time before we see epic items proccing on level up and throwing a saddle onto any mob turns it into a mount....

RARRRR :mad:

What an adorable overcharged hyperbole of a rant.

What they're basically doing, in comparison, is say release more Raids in parallel to accomodate the Hardcore gamer who has a large amount of time to invest into this game. I apologize vehemently if I only play this game for 12-20 hours a week. I do like to sleep for 60 hours a week and work for 45 hours a week, and sometimes i like to sneak in the occassional Laundry day, Nintendo Wii (been hitting Metroid Trilogy), and sunshine.

Theres as I understand it already a bunch of crazy **** to do if youre really pushed. Go for Shadowmourne or something. Quite the feat of strength, I am sure.

What I dont like is that the only raids people seem to do are OS, Ony, ICC and ToC. I would love to run Naxx and Ulduar because they're fun. But you cant find the people. Its a gear/time and effort issue. And while I am sure completing Ulduar or ICC is a Feat of Strength in itself, because of the time commitment involved, how many people in the playerbase have completed these? When you discuss available content, you're not doing well when the vast majority never get to see the portions of content that developers poured most of their time, energy, and money into. This may come as a shock but I would love to get to the LK fight at some point. Or find an Ulduar group that wasnt just in it for the XT weekly.

So theyre changing it to accommodate a larger variety of gamer. I dont see the problem. If it pisses off the top 5%, I don't care. But I think that 5% is simply nitpicking, as theres always going to be things you are able to do and get to proclaim yourself to be in the top 5%, or the top 99.98th percentile to those who have gotten Shadowmourne, for instance (figured pulled out of my arse)

Blowfish · 27-04-2010 5:17pm

nix wrote: »

Casuals can **** off and play super mario if ya ask me, this is a disgrace.

MMO's are ment to take alot of time to get items, rewards are best served as rewards. I'm growning tired of this **** they are doing, they are making this game WAY too easy, and boohoo i only have an hour an evening to spare and blah blah blah

Whats annoying is they are doing this not because its the right thing to do for the game, but because it makes more $$$ :rolleyes:

I spend the majority of my time these days jumping around dala bored out of my head as the content is too easy and ive nothing to do.

When i used to indulge in alot of world pvp fighting over grounds for farming mats for particular things guild needed, like resistance gear, flasks and what not, not anymore now its handed to us yay!

Swear to ****in god, its only a matter of time before we see epic items proccing on level up and throwing a saddle onto any mob turns it into a mount....

RARRRR :mad:

You seem to be making the classic mistake of assuming that Hardcore == skilled. Farming for mats/flasks/oils/food/resistance gear is easy. It takes 0 skill, it just takes a long time and is very very boring.

PvP is the most dramatic example of this. Getting Grand Marshal/High Warlord didn't take skill, it took a hardcore grind of 12 hours a day for months on end farming bg's. To get rank 1 on a decent battlegroup now takes far far less time, however it does involve actually being good at what you do.

With raiding now, if you are any way decent, you'll progress, if not, you wont. The so called 'hardcore' time element has been cut out, but the skill level hasn't.

TheDoc · 27-04-2010 6:10pm

I'd also wonder what sort of figures of players this would effect.

Of course we will have the top guilds QQ and to be honest I'm pretty sick of hearing it, its like the world if supposed to give a **** that they aren't being challenged, it blows off epic elitism to me.

But to what extent and what percentage of the player base will go

" a here, this is way too easy, I'm not challenged anymore and I'm quitting"

I think this number will be pretty pretty low.

At the recent anniversary with all the devl blogs, one of the senior developers there from inseption said something pretty close to the following

"Arenas were probably the worst implementation we did, and if we could turn back the clock, I think we wouldn't include them at all"

AND

"The original barriers to entry were way to high, although content was being cleared, the number of players reaching max level and then floating around not being able to anything was unacceptably high, when we created the 10man raid, it was a step to try rectify one of our biggest mistakes, and make end game content more accessible"

Thats taken from a video interview from a blizz dev ( the guy with beard, glasses and sandals)

This change wont lead to the drop in numbers. Drop in numbers this year will come from other games taking up peoples times. Another stat not regularly bantered around is account long term use. From my reading from blizzard stats, it seems although less people are playing, people are playing longer hours and more often. This is obviously due to the reduced barriers to entry.

I think its a bit ridic for anyone to come on and say " thats ****, poor change, game over, EZ mode". Not saying anyone has, but you get the feeling its what people are thinking.

Thats really not the case. 25mans are there still, so if your in that large 25man guild off you go have the tie of your life and have the self acomplishment of achieving something ahrder.

However if like me, theres a number of reason why this change is pretty good and something to look forward too.

I wandered around aimlessly for a long time without a 25man guild. Ones I got into I didn't like or didn't get on with people well and left. I have joined a guild now that seems pretty ok, stable, fair, friendly and active. But I'm the new guy joining a guild in existence since forever. People arnt going out of their way to make friends, and I'm pretty much just getting invited to the raids and thats it. I dont feel accepted I dont feel belong to anything and I'm pretty much just staring at my dkp and waiting for items to drop.

There is a core of irish players on the outland server that I get along with, I like, and love raiding with. Dustaz would be an example but theirs plenty more. However they all run with a pretty top notch guild, so any raiding action I get with them is usually them on alts and they arnt full throttle. But the one thing we always get in those 10man alt runs or 25man alt runs with mains, is absolute dedication and a good enjoyable raid. I think the change has hit alot of them with the notion, why bother 25man raiding when we can 10man with the lads. So some are weighing up their options as to what will be the most fun for them and what will be the most progressive. Theres no doubt that if the regular core that raid together did and icc10 on mains, it would be a 12/12 normal and probably a 10/12 Heroic atleast.

Alot of the lads are considering it, making the move, form a new guild and 10man raid dedicated with mains. These are guys who have been around the block and I think it hilights the point that although they may be losing out on some 25man progression, they will be gaining huge enjoyment, more intimate social 10man raids with great progression, but most importantly in some cases, they can keep current tier gear with 25man players.

I was there for the 40man onxyias and molten cores, waiting 2 hours to gather pots and buffs and ****e. Then going on for up to 7 hours raiding.

I was there for Illidan and the TBC raiding, smaller numbers but still massive dedication and hours upon hours of raiding.

Wotlk has been the best time of my wow life and instead of dropping off like most I played with, I played more. The lower barriers to entry ment that I could get into the thick of raiding quicker and put more dedication and performance into the reduced times, and I'm having the time of my life.

This next change although maybe a step back for some, is a step forward for me, and I cant wait for it to come in. Cata will be the first expansion where I'll be dedicated from the start and giving it my all. Previous expansions I was tired and wanderous at end game not enjoying it.

But with the notion of these changes coming, I'll be bursting chars to 85 and probably having the best raiding experiences yet.

Robby91 · 28-04-2010 7:55am

Whats annoying is they are doing this not because its the right thing to do for the game, but because it makes more $$$

Well, Blizzard is a business, so making money obviously has to be fairly high on the list of priorities.

It's unfortunate that Blizzard won't be able to cater for everyone (without making separate games, or numerous 'configurations' for every raid boss encounter to suit everyone), but they have to try and do what's right for them, as well as the playerbase. If the casual players are driven out due to upscaling of content difficulty (or various other things, just to lengthen the amount of time required to do anything), no amount of praise from the hardcore players (time- and skill-wise) will make up for the income lost, and I'm guessing some of that money goes towards maintaining servers, making new content, etc.

Of course we will have the top guilds QQ and to be honest I'm pretty sick of hearing it, its like the world if supposed to give a **** that they aren't being challenged, it blows off epic elitism to me.

Indeed. While I haven't read many of the blogs/whatever from the top guilds, the ones I have (well, only Ensidia ones) just frustrate me...

If the expansion has been such a failure, why the f*** are they still playing? Seems like a shocking waste of money, just to have a good whinge at the end of the day.

I'm certainly gonna miss the oppurtunity to PuG 25mans now and again, to blow off steam, but I guess it leaves time for other games ^^

nix · 28-04-2010 9:43am

Blowfish wrote: »

You seem to be making the classic mistake of assuming that Hardcore == skilled. Farming for mats/flasks/oils/food/resistance gear is easy. It takes 0 skill, it just takes a long time and is very very boring.

PvP is the most dramatic example of this. Getting Grand Marshal/High Warlord didn't take skill, it took a hardcore grind of 12 hours a day for months on end farming bg's. To get rank 1 on a decent battlegroup now takes far far less time, however it does involve actually being good at what you do.

With raiding now, if you are any way decent, you'll progress, if not, you wont. The so called 'hardcore' time element has been cut out, but the skill level hasn't.

No you make the mistake of assuming my reasons are pure selfish

The whole purpose of an MMO is to enter a world and explore the vast land, to interact and make friends/enemies within the massive population, gather minerals and craft items to sell. Grinding rep, bumping into opposing faction and beating the crap out of one another. Taking on tough bosses that actually feel challenging and epic and more rewarding.

All of the above slowly getting filtered out..

Interaction replaced with Gearscore and que based instances requiring little to no effort.

Gathering mats replaced with frozen orbs and whoever has control of WG

World PvP non existent unless your beating the crap out of some lost leveling soul that hasnt got a flying mount which is rare, the only world pvp we get is in WG which is on every 3hrs is it? And has terrible balancing issues on low pop servers..

Grinding rep..... hardly a grind anymore, and your alts dont have to grind it, this also reduces people leaving dalaran.

Infact you dont have to leave Dalaran at all much these days, kinda makes having the rest of the zones pointless dont ya think?

And what happens with everybody cramped into dala? the trade/general channels are spammed with elitist jerk off kids spamming 4 digits numbers, woohoo!

And now they are making 25mans pointless, why put up with the stress of 25mans when you can just go and faceroll the 10mans?? 40 man to 25man, 25man to 10man, 10man to 5man next? Seems like were going backwards here...

auh but but you get more loot in the 25mans.. Yes and you get more loot in 25mans now, there is no difference, its logical to put more loot in the 25man as there are more people to reward!!!

But the 25mans still exist its your choice at the end of the day

Yes but unfortunatley we have to depend on humans to show up and they due to their nature get lazy and go with the easy option ah **** it ill just do 10man the weekend, and **** me guild if they dont like it, ill just go find another guild that appreciate my attitude sense of humour knowledge of the game gearscore

World of warcraft - Massively multiplayer online game

And f off with the ignorant QQ **** tbh, my reasons for objection are more than valid

Im just tired of having most things i show interest in and get popular getting dummed down for the slower, less patient disgruntled masses :rolleyes:

nix · 28-04-2010 10:07am

Overheal wrote: »

What an adorable overcharged hyperbole of a rant.

Go shit in your hat

Overheal wrote: »

What they're basically doing, in comparison, is say release more Raids in parallel to accomodate the Hardcore gamer who has a large amount of time to invest into this game. I apologize vehemently if I only play this game for 12-20 hours a week. I do like to sleep for 60 hours a week and work for 45 hours a week, and sometimes i like to sneak in the occassional Laundry day, Nintendo Wii (been hitting Metroid Trilogy), and sunshine.

I raid 3-4 evenings a week ranging from 4-6 hours an evening which is just a little over what you do, and were arguing over casual play ? whats the diff here? is it knowledge of the game? skill ? im some sort of gaming robot from the future that plays games better is that it? any ideas? im stumped.

Actually no, you play nintendo wii too, you do more gaming than me it seems

Overheal wrote: »

Theres as I understand it already a bunch of crazy **** to do if youre really pushed. Go for Shadowmourne or something. Quite the feat of strength, I am sure.

I'm sure Shadowmourne would look lovely on my priest :rolleyes:

Overheal wrote: »

What I dont like is that the only raids people seem to do are OS, Ony, ICC and ToC. I would love to run Naxx and Ulduar because they're fun. But you cant find the people. Its a gear/time and effort issue. And while I am sure completing Ulduar or ICC is a Feat of Strength in itself, because of the time commitment involved, how many people in the playerbase have completed these? When you discuss available content, you're not doing well when the vast majority never get to see the portions of content that developers poured most of their time, energy, and money into. This may come as a shock but I would love to get to the LK fight at some point. Or find an Ulduar group that wasnt just in it for the XT weekly.

Yet thats what your supporting in this thread :rolleyes: people go where the loot is, i love ulduar and its still a challenge in hard modes, i go there any oppertunity i get which is rare as loot sucks and nobody wants to go.

Overheal wrote: »

So theyre changing it to accommodate a larger variety of gamer. I dont see the problem. If it pisses off the top 5%, I don't care. But I think that 5% is simply nitpicking, as theres always going to be things you are able to do and get to proclaim yourself to be in the top 5%, or the top 99.98th percentile to those who have gotten Shadowmourne, for instance (figured pulled out of my arse)

No they are changing it to make more money, no if and or buts about it :rolleyes:

TheDoc · 28-04-2010 10:54am

nix wrote: »

No they are changing it to make more money, no if and or buts about it :rolleyes:

And whats the problem with that?

They are catering for the higher percentage of the demographic.

If they created an endgame so hardcore orientated, grind orientated and extreme youll find a horrid amount of drop of in end game activity, so much that their consistentency that they built up over wrath would be gne.

Like I said above.

There are less people playing, but these people are playing more then before.

As an mmo progresses further in level caps and expansions, the odds of new players arriving severely drops.

If you want to see just how fun a real hardcore mmo game is try Aion. I know we all dropped it after level 30-40. It took enormous time and effort and was absolutely no fun what so ever.

All blizzard have done is reduce barriers to entry since vanilla. As said above, they shaved a few hours of raiding time for stupid ****, like getting attuned to raids and gathering pots and buffs, absolutely ridiculous time sinks completely unnecessary.

The more I think about people objecting to this change perhaps feeling they are highly skilled, I'd question what progression they have in heroic modes. I know Dustaz has done pretty well in them but he is still not complete and he runs with a top guild on our server.

If a rake load of people were bursting through heroic modes and pugs were doing it I'd be concerned.

But at the current state, and taking evidence from my server, I do think its complete over reaction, people thinking they are alot better then they are, and pure whinging.

If someone here has 12/12 hard modes on 10 and 25 and did it relatively quickly then I'd probably listen to them a bit more sympathetic when they say its all so easy.

Remember how little people have actually done 12/12 without the buff helps....

witless1 · 28-04-2010 11:27am

Just a few comments on what has been said

nix wrote: »

Interaction replaced with Gearscore and que based instances requiring little to no effort.

Gearscore came from the community so it's hardly fair to factor that in for bringing down the standards. If anything the queue based instances brought more interaction and made me do random dungeons rather then standing around Dalaran looking for a group. For the odd random dungeon I do now I still shout in our Irish channel to see if a couple of heads want to join me.

nix wrote: »

Gathering mats replaced with frozen orbs and whoever has control of WG

Not really. I don't know how much you use the Auction house but the trade off for frozen orbs --> raw materials upset the market prices for about 3 weeks, things are back to normal now. No one is going to go farm heroics for frozen orbs to convert to other mats. The time investment and the fact you are not guaranteed to win one is a barrier. As for gathering mats, things like herbs, sarnoite and leather have a constant supply and market.

nix wrote: »

World PvP non existent unless your beating the crap out of some lost leveling soul that hasnt got a flying mount which is rare, the only world pvp we get is in WG which is on every 3hrs is it? And has terrible balancing issues on low pop servers..

That's probably server specific and what you described isn't world PVP it's ganking :P Doing a few daily quests and waiting for ICC brings a decent bit of PVP on my server (same as Dustaz/TheDoc). If you want world PVP it's a matter of going looking for it, go to WG when the opposite faction control it, go to quest locations for dailys and go to popular farming spots.

I agree with you on the rep side of things, was never a fan of it at all in any way, shape or form. Same with Dalarn, it is full of people who are bored! If I log into the game I log in for a reason, to do an instance, do a few quests etc. When I am finished I don't stand around Dala semi AFK, I log off! Again that's a community thing, people who are bored sit in trade to keep themselves somehow entertained.

nix wrote: »

And now they are making 25mans pointless, why put up with the stress of 25mans when you can just go and faceroll the 10mans??

10 man's are not faceroll if you tackle the content with the gear that the instance was intended for. Case and point is the 10 man strict rankings on Guildox.

TheDoc wrote: »

All blizzard have done is reduce barriers to entry since vanilla. As said above, they shaved a few hours of raiding time for stupid ****, like getting attuned to raids and gathering pots and buffs, absolutely ridiculous time sinks completely unnecessary.

Getting resistance gear was a nightmare. Waiting 4-6 weeks to kill Mother Sheraz because the raid needed a raw material to craft resistance gear was pointless. Attunements I didn't so much mind, they gave you a sense of accomplishment and you knew where you stood progression wise. They were a well thought out barrier particularly with BT/MH, they stopped a lot of guilds walking in there and QQing because they were wiping due to gear level.

The one thing that I don't agree with is the rolling ICC buffs, they are pointless as it will not teach you fight mechanics. I can have a 100% damage buff but if I stand in fire / void zones / *insert gimmick* I will fall over. People might want to try some of the hard modes in a purer form but no guild or PUG wants to endure wiping unnecessarily, not when they can dumb the requirements down by a set percentage and pick up a higher iLvl of gear. The game is still very much an MMO in terms of interaction, trading, crafting and raiding.

Magill · 28-04-2010 1:12pm

so nix.. whats ur current icc progress then ? since current content is so easy.

How long did it take you to get 0 keepers ?

0s3d ?

5/5 TOGC25 ?

Wotlk content is anything but easy

tman · 28-04-2010 1:53pm

nix banned for a week.
Play nice when you get back

Overheal · 28-04-2010 2:03pm

witless1 wrote: »

Just a few comments on what has been said

Gearscore came from the community so it's hardly fair to factor that in for bringing down the standards. If anything the queue based instances brought more interaction and made me do random dungeons rather then standing around Dalaran looking for a group. For the odd random dungeon I do now I still shout in our Irish channel to see if a couple of heads want to join me.

It was a welcome change. Rather than spam Trade Chat for 2 hours to get a group together for some obscure dungeon on the opposite continent - bam. There you go.

I can see why its a bitch not to have to travel out to blackfathom depths (and spend anywhere from 15-45 minutes doing so) but I'd rather get in and get done. Ive already explored Azeroth and gotten all the flight paths, and even Metroid as mentioned above pisses me off to no end with the amount of back-tracking that is built into the game :pac:

You want to go out into the world, go questing

As for getting to know people, you encounter people from your same realm, so you can always recruit etc. - and whats more I got on speaking terms with specific players from Moon Guard while I was leveling. Me and a Healer were leveling at the same rate, me and her just ran dungeons all through our 30s 40s and 50s.

10 man's are not faceroll if you tackle the content with the gear that the instance was intended for. Case and point is the 10 man strict rankings on Guildox.

The other factor being that 10s and 25s will drop homogenous gear in Cataclysm, and will be difficulty-balanced. Meaning there should be no facerolling between one or the other. None of this doing raids in 245s that were meant for 232s, etc.

Getting resistance gear was a nightmare. Waiting 4-6 weeks to kill Mother Sheraz because the raid needed a raw material to craft resistance gear was pointless. Attunements I didn't so much mind, they gave you a sense of accomplishment and you knew where you stood progression wise. They were a well thought out barrier particularly with BT/MH, they stopped a lot of guilds walking in there and QQing because they were wiping due to gear level.

Yeah but theres not attunement anymore but theres still Man-checks. Thats why for example the first encounter in Halls of Reflection is the hardest, its a coordination check as much as anything. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

red_ice · 28-04-2010 3:41pm

tman wrote: »

nix banned for a week.
Play nice when you get back

Banned for what? Conversing?

Overheal · 28-04-2010 4:32pm

red_ice wrote: »

Banned for what? Conversing?

...

nix wrote:

Go shit in your hat

tman · 28-04-2010 5:01pm

Yup... Conversing / abuse
Which side of the line would you consider that to be on?

Magill · 28-04-2010 7:34pm

zzzzZZZZZZZZ, mod's spoiling a good thread, thanks tman.

Silverfish · 28-04-2010 9:29pm

People are expected to remain civil. Personal abuse is not allowed, and neither is discussing moderation on-thread. If you have an issue, either pm the mod or cmod.

Back on topic.

Magill · 28-04-2010 9:32pm

"Go **** in your hat"

Hardly personal abuse, but yeah whatever, thanks for ruining a good debate.

Silverfish · 28-04-2010 9:37pm

Magill wrote: »

"Go **** in your hat"

Hardly personal abuse, but yeah whatever, thanks for ruining a good debate.

I suggest you read the charter of this forum.

This is a final warning, the debate is not 'ruined', feel free to continue with the topic.

Overheal · 28-04-2010 9:44pm

One thing I will say about the general argument, that some people seem to want to carry, which is this eliminates grinding, time and effort.

In regular game design, you always start out small, overcome some hurdles, and are usually rewarded with a neat tool/powerup that helps you overcome those same obstacles again later. Conversely, you use that tool to help you overcome even larger obstacles or challenges.

WoW is 5+ years old. People have leveled characters; grinded rep and rare mats and gems. How long should they reasonably be expected to do that? After a while it becomes a chore, not fun. I used to enjoy mining ore for a while. Then I stopped. I got bored of it.

Similarly, I leveled to 80 much in part to getting exalted with Sons of Hodir, which also so happened to be a Rep I needed for a tanking enchant. Great! But, if I decide later, I want to make a new toon, why do I need to prove to the Server-Gods that I can do it again? Ive already done it.. So Blizzard gets that. They get that I the player have grinded the achievement. And so all my toons should benefit from (some of) that same effort, through arcanums and heirlooms.

TheDoc · 28-04-2010 9:49pm

Essentially all of the PvE changes together seem aimed to disincentivize 25s, is there some reasoning as to why 25s are no longer being encouraged?
Our goal through Wrath of the Lich King was that players could choose 10 or 25 as a personal preference. We think we missed that mark though. Because 25s still provided more powerful rewards, it felt like that was the “real” raiding, and 10s were what you did on off-nights, or if you just couldn’t stomach the logistics of recruiting or pugging 10 more players. We know there are a lot of players out there who just prefer to raid 10s but felt like we didn’t deliver on our promise to let them just raid 10s. The Cataclysm model is to let players raid 10s or 25s as they see fit. There are advantages and disadvantages to both raid sizes. The larger raids can feel more epic, yet the smaller ones tend to have less loot drama because there is less competition per item that drops. The smaller raids in some sense are more hardcore, because there are fewer opportunities to include novice raiders or folks who just aren’t carrying their weight.

We understand that changes like this can cause social upheaval and we didn’t make the decision lightly. The community was similarly concerned when we removed 40-player raids (and we literally did remove those; today we’re just offering an alternative to the larger raids). We think there is a non-trivial audience of players who prefer the 25-player raids and we’re going to continue to support them. We tried many different raiding models in Wrath of the Lich King with regard to Heroic modes and lockouts, and rest assured that if we don’t like how the 4.0 raiding game evolves that we will revisit it for 4.1.

Thats taken from a blue post, and touches on the points I was making, if not more direct and straight forward in the above

Dustaz · 28-04-2010 10:28pm

Overheal wrote: »

Yeah but theres not attunement anymore but theres still Man-checks. Thats why for example the first encounter in Halls of Reflection is the hardest, its a coordination check as much as anything. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

Why are you talking about heroic dungeons in a thread about raiding?

Overheal · 29-04-2010 12:34am

Dustaz wrote: »

Why are you talking about heroic dungeons in a thread about raiding?

More about the instance experience, and game balance, and game design, in general.

The comment was to address the removal of attunement to raid encounters. To which my response was that attunement made sure you were ready for a particular instance by forcing you through hurdles, per each toon. With things like HoR and ToC, you have optional attunements/checks that will let you know just how ready you are; but are not essential to entering ICC, for example. Its become a preferred solution, especially given that most of the toons around nowadays are alts.

witless1 · 29-04-2010 10:17am

Overheal wrote: »

. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

Yeah that certainly is the case and it does makes sense from a lore and storyline point of view. The attunement system is something that I liked and disliked at the same time. Getting attuned to Onyxia was a massive pain especially when new to the game! The system for MH/BT was enjoyable as well, a natural barrier to progression and a long quest chain built in which involved raiding. Those kind of tests made you feel like you were at the right level, well at least it made me feel like I was doing something right!

The annoying part, and the part I am glad has been removed, was going back and attuning others (and your own alts) until a patch came along to unlock everything. The current system for "attuning" a raid to hard modes is something I like and hope it continues in Wrath.

Nehaxak · 29-04-2010 7:17pm

I just wish they'd introduce cross server pug raiding, as they did with dungeons.

While I'd understand the complexity and the cons in all of that, it means at least I can jump in a raid whenever I decide to play - at least for 10 mans anyway, without locking you to the raid until the last boss is dead.

Leave the 25 mans alone, no, make them harder so guilds actually have a purpose other than the social aspect.

I gave up and lost interest in raiding due to having to wait on others to be there on time and ready with flasks, knowing tactics, having the gear, la la la etc., etc., That and giving up my time to be there, looking forward to it but ending up just pissed off as others don't turn up or we're short a tank/healer/dps is crap/whatever.

It can also be both too elitist and retarded with same server pugs, alright not all of them but really, in all honesty, the vast majority are.

Take the system they introduced with Dungeons and try it out with 10 man raiding cross server and they'll be on to a winner imo. I'd like to see it changed where you can literally just jump in and out of 10 man raids when you feel like it, including as a guild, maybe short a tank and a healer, sure pick them up from the cross server queue and see how it goes, no harm.

Reserve the best of the gear for the 25 mans, normal/heroic, whatever suits.

red_ice · 29-04-2010 7:42pm

tman wrote: »

Yup... Conversing / abuse
Which side of the line would you consider that to be on?

conversing. Not abuse

Silverfish · 29-04-2010 7:44pm

Please read the charter. Discussion of moderating decisions in-thread is off-topic.

Overheal · 29-04-2010 8:03pm

I can see why it would be unwelcome to introduce an LFR tool though. The Guild structure would have little left to stand on wouldnt it? Guilds are where people get together, buddy up, and go on premade BGs or Raids. You cant really do that cross-realm. And as successful as the Dungeon Finder is its still limited by that, in that it does limit the social aspect of being paired with people you like to play with on a consistent basis.

I guess it could happen and maybe thats why theyre introducing new Guild Progression mechanics, though. And I also suppose it wouldnt be too bad if people wanted to solo/pug raids; it would certainly help cut out a lot of the riff raff from guild recruitment; people who can't/won't bother to listen, or abide by your Guild Guidelines, etc.

Cataclysm raiding changes (Massive)

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