Cataclysm raiding changes (Massive)

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

Thats a terrible assumption to make: I meant ToC, the raid.

Why would you use ToC as an example with HoR? one is a raid one is a 5man.

Look this is getting utterly boring at this point. My position is that you should have to attune yourself by completing the previous raid tier. 5 mans shouldnt come into it.

Also HoR - I mean, whats the point of Attunement then? You had to Attune yourself in Blackfathom Depths to Molten Core, for instance. What was the point of that? Attuning to a 40 man in a 5 man? Surely not(!)

1. Blackfathom Depths? nice.
2. You could raid "Blackfathom depths" at that stage.
3. At that point, there WAS no previous raid tier.
4. You also had to do a questline for the optional boss in Karazan as well as attunement to SSC which involved heroic Dungeons in tbc. I didnt mind that so much since at that point Heroic Dungeons were actually a challenge, unlike any of the heroics in wotlk

nix

This is why i erupted in this thread, nothing more annoying than someone joining a discussion with little experience on the matter and basing all points on ignorance.

:rolleyes:

To Magill i have cleared all icc25 normal and have 4 bosses left on heroic (saurfang, putri, sindra and LK) we have only made an attempt on saurfang which we got to like 16% with very lil effort put on him..

Whats slowing us down now is ever since we got kingslayer title alot of players in my guild have decided to become inactive and we are struggling to get the right raid compositions for the remaining bosses, heck we even had to take socials to some of the hardmodes in which we succeded.

If there were no normal mode, these players would still be active chasing their kingslayer title and what not..

Damn my low pop realm

Dustaz

Its not a lot better on high pop realms.

Were stuck on 9/12 25hc (pp hc on 7% and sindra hc on 20% - 11/12 10man hc) and we have the same problems. Its getting harder and harder to get applications because everyone is getting burnt out at this stage with the finish line in sight. They have Kingslayer and cant be bothered going for lk hc and so just work on alts (most of us have 10/12 10 man heroic on alts at this point).

These raid changes might actually help us from this point of view as people are going to have to choose what flavor they want in cata

Overheal

nix wrote: »

This is why i erupted in this thread, nothing more annoying than someone joining a discussion with little experience on the matter and basing all points on ignorance.

Oh excuse me Lord, I have sinned for I said fathom where I should have said rock. Forgive me for not having played the game since beta. Right back at ya: :rolleyes:

nix wrote:

Damn my low pop realm

Which is a wonder, with the attitude you have toward newer players.

Dustaz wrote:

At that point, there WAS no previous raid tier.

Fair enough.

nix

Overheal wrote: »

Oh excuse me Lord, I have sinned for I said fathom where I should have said rock. Forgive me for not having played the game since beta. Right back at ya: :rolleyes:

Which is a wonder, with the attitude you have toward newer players.Fair enough.

I havent played since beta, i just have experience in what im talking about, you dont and its showing alot.... :cool:

And i have alot of time for new players, there you go assuming again :rolleyes:

Overheal

nix wrote: »

I havent played since beta, i just have experience in what im talking about, you dont and its showing alot.... :cool:

And i have alot of time for new players, there you go assuming again :rolleyes:

I dont have to assume anything: your behavior in thread speaks for itself.

TheDoc

Can we please make a thread , sticky it.

Andhave everyone list their armoury and and outline their experience

for the sheer purpose that people can quickly deter who are the folk NOT to listen too.

Nehaxak

TheDoc wrote: »

Can we please make a thread , sticky it.

Andhave everyone list their armoury and and outline their experience

for the sheer purpose that people can quickly deter who are the folk NOT to listen too.

Indeed, and while we're at it, lets call it "omg i r spoofer n hav no jab r life, hur dur dur".

http://elitistjerks.com/forums.php is that-a-way, see how long you last in there, you'd be trampled all over. Just because you're better geared and have a little more experience than others that post on the boards wow forums, does not make you an expert, it just makes you that, a little more experienced than others. People would hardly come to these forums now to read expert opinion :rolleyes:

DapperGent

I don't think it's so much about experience or epeen or whatever. I would imagine it just gets terribly frustrating arguing with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

"Man it was so much better back when the game was really hard and stuff took ages."
"No it wasn't and anyway it wasn't harder."
"Oh you don't think? Most people who got to raid back then regard it fondly and certainly think it was harder."
"Oh I never did any of that but I still know better."
"..."

tman

DapperGent, you really should know better than that by now...

*Strokes banhammer

Overheal

DapperGent wrote: »

"No it wasn't and anyway it wasn't harder."

Never said that.

"Oh I never did any of that but I still know better."

Never said that either.

If anything I agreed things were evidently much harder back in Classic and TBC. All I did say was that Im glad they snipped away several things, like Attunement, and have made changes to make raiding more approachable. And appear to be continuing to move in that direction for Cataclysm.

nix

You did, i showed frustration at the masses and your ego decided to make it personal and you came on belittling MY opinion and telling me how I should play the game even though I have vast experience in the game and have been playing the game for quite some time, and im basing my opinion on EXPERIENCE as oppossed to IGNORANCE.

As if i didnt know better :rolleyes:

Your also derailing the subject talking about attunement, which has nothing to do with the changes to RAIDING in cata

I have alot of time for new players and alot of my posts in this forum would show that, the fact i have been called elitist by people whos opinions i hold in high regard and i have even helped throughout the years is just a slap in the mouth tbh

Also, tman, get back on the fence tbh :cool:

Anyway, Seeya's prob in another week or more, i still love you guys, except lowheals :pac:

tman

I'm not about to ban you or anyone else for heated discussion, nix (which this certainly is!)

Overheal

nix wrote: »

You did, i showed frustration at the masses and your ego decided to make it personal and you came on belittling MY opinion and telling me how I should play the game

kind of like.... "**** off and play super mario", right?

even though I have vast experience in the game and have been playing the game for quite some time, and im basing my opinion on EXPERIENCE as oppossed to IGNORANCE.

As if i didnt know better :rolleyes:

You must not, tbph.

Rather than say youre Experienced might you prefer to instead impart that experience? I havent seen it. I have however seen you lose the rag and turn it into an Activision-Blizzard $$$ whinge thread though; Or try to.

Your also derailing the subject talking about attunement, which has nothing to do with the changes to RAIDING in cata

Actually TheDoc brought it up.

I have alot of time for new players and alot of my posts in this forum would show that, the fact i have been called elitist by people whos opinions i hold in high regard and i have even helped throughout the years is just a slap in the mouth tbh

Well then perchance you shouldn't tell 'casuals' to fcuk off and go play Super Mario over a blue-post.

Dustaz

Overheal, one thing you have to realise in this discussion is that you ARE a casual. not a "casual", a casual. Not only that, you also have to realise that since blizzard opened up raiding to the masses (A Good Thing) and you are now able to raid (Another Good Thing), it doesnt mean you now understand everything about raiding and its dynamic. Keep the boards-politic attidude for feedforward please ("your behaviour in this thread" etc etc)

Like someone else said earlier, the only reason i play the game is to raid. I've tried everything else in it and raiding is what keeps me there. Everytime i quit, i come back to be casual but end up raiding because its simply the best thing about the game. I've finished every instance bar naxx40 (due to casualness:P ) and ICC25 hc. What really keeps me going is the "i want that" factor and the sense of achievement on kills.

What really WORRIES me about the way the game is going is that because raiding is so widespread and the bar has been lowered so much in this expansion is that there is no real drive for people to strive to get better. More casuals can raid and thats great but they generally arent enchanting and gemming and min/maxing to eek everything out of their gear to kill that final boss.

Another thing is that when stuff is handed to people on a plate, they get bored easily. In vanilla and tbc i never actually got bored with raiding, it just got too much. At the moment I (and a lot of others i know) are bored with raiding. Normal is too easy, and heroic kills arent different enough to offer an interesting challenge. They are hard sure, but its just like playing a game on Nightmare after you finished it on easy, rather than playing a DIFFERENT game, if you know what i mean.

The whole risk/reward equation is out of whack now. People get the rewards for very little time invested and very little effort. That does not incentivise people to keep playing and the numbers left in dalaran these days show it.

nix

Overheal wrote: »

kind of like.... "**** off and play super mario", right?
You must not, tbph.

Rather than say youre Experienced might you prefer to instead impart that experience? I havent seen it. I have however seen you lose the rag and turn it into an Activision-Blizzard $$$ whinge thread though; Or try to.
Actually TheDoc brought it up.
Well then perchance you shouldn't tell 'casuals' to fcuk off and go play Super Mario over a blue-post.

We've been over this, your not a casual player, not in my eyes anyway, you play more than i do.. Why are you getting offended at this? Why are you praising the new changes when you havent even experienced the old ways?

I have brought up many valid points and the only people to counter/entertain them were DoC and Witless, i had a big response typed out for them last week but was banned before i could submit and lost it and cba to type it up again

Have you read all my posts or just my first one in this thread? :rolleyes:

Overheal

Dustaz wrote: »

Overheal, one thing you have to realise in this discussion is that you ARE a casual. not a "casual", a casual.

If you think for some reason I'm confused about that, you don't have a clue; you're reading what you want to read from my posts. Or you're mistaking me for someone else.

Not only that, you also have to realise that since blizzard opened up raiding to the masses (A Good Thing) and you are now able to raid (Another Good Thing), it doesnt mean you now understand everything about raiding and its dynamic. Keep the boards-politic attidude for feedforward please ("your behaviour in this thread" etc etc)

I didn't claim to know everything. Though you are welcome to quote me to the contrary.

As for Politic its called Not Talking in Absolutes. Its not you either you know everything or you know nothing. You seem to just be lumping me in with know-nothing crowd. Well actually, lumping me in with knownothings who claim to be knowitalls: the "I have vast experience in the game and have been playing the game for quite some time, and im basing my opinion on EXPERIENCE as oppossed to IGNORANCE" crowd.

You are not going to tell me how to post, and where. Don't pretend to, either. This is not a pissing contest and this forum is not your territory.

Like someone else said earlier, the only reason i play the game is to raid. I've tried everything else in it and raiding is what keeps me there. Everytime i quit, i come back to be casual but end up raiding because its simply the best thing about the game. I've finished every instance bar naxx40 (due to casualness:P ) and ICC25 hc. What really keeps me going is the "i want that" factor and the sense of achievement on kills.

What really WORRIES me about the way the game is going is that because raiding is so widespread and the bar has been lowered so much in this expansion is that there is no real drive for people to strive to get better. More casuals can raid and thats great but they generally arent enchanting and gemming and min/maxing to eek everything out of their gear to kill that final boss.

Another thing is that when stuff is handed to people on a plate, they get bored easily. In vanilla and tbc i never actually got bored with raiding, it just got too much. At the moment I (and a lot of others i know) are bored with raiding. Normal is too easy, and heroic kills arent different enough to offer an interesting challenge. They are hard sure, but its just like playing a game on Nightmare after you finished it on easy, rather than playing a DIFFERENT game, if you know what i mean.

The whole risk/reward equation is out of whack now. People get the rewards for very little time invested and very little effort. That does not incentivise people to keep playing and the numbers left in dalaran these days show it.

Thats fair.

Do you think them likely to change that though? Giving the better reward to Heroic, and adding many more dynamics to the fights? eg. they add mind control to Deathwhisper in 25m right now but its gimmicky and not enough to add new flavor. Do they add anything further in Heroic?

We've been over this, your not a casual player, not in my eyes anyway, you play more than i do.. Why are you getting offended at this?

Im not black, but if someone was on this forum telling the n!ggers to go home, I wouldn't stand for it.

I'd consider myself non-casual about this game, probably when we can down more than the first 5 in ICC 10.. I miss noblegarden; don your rabbit ears and hop around tanaris.

Why are you praising the new changes when you havent even experienced the old ways?

Why can someone praise the PS3 when they never owned a PS1 but they've had a PS2?

Magill

Overheal, i bet you always come bottom on the meters . newb

Overheal

Magill wrote: »

Overheal, i bet you always come bottom on the meters . newb

That might have to do with being a Tank..

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

As for Politic its called Not Talking in Absolutes
...
You are not going to tell me how to post, and where. Don't pretend to, either. This is not a pissing contest and this forum is not your territory.

I mean the smug "your behaviour in this thread" comments are in line with the "attack the post not the poster" bollix that boards has become. That line was as much a red rag to nix as his more direct comment about defecation in headwear yet he gets banned. Its a completely offtopic thing, it just annoys the hell out of me and is pretty much the reason i havent used any forum outside of the games cat since 2005.

Thats fair.

Do you think them likely to change that though? Giving the better reward to Heroic, and adding many more dynamics to the fights? eg. they add mind control to Deathwhisper in 25m right now but its gimmicky and not enough to add new flavor. Do they add anything further in Heroic?

This goes back to my main point at the beginning of the thread. They add mindcontrol to the 10 man heroic version. Its PART OF the 25 man normal version. In 25 man heroic, the differences are that the boss is untauntable (tanks need to fight for threat), the adds continue spawning (3 per wave) and the spirits explode in an aoe.

Ergo, the 10 man fight (like every other 10 man fight in the game) is EASIER than the 25 man version. Not from a 'well its easier to get 10 people together', but from a mechanic point of view. If they want to bring the 2 closer to parity, its going to exclude some new 'casual' raiders. If they bring the 25 man standards down to the 10 man, it will weaken the raiding game even more than it is already and will continue to hand epics out on a plate.

Do i think theyll change it? Not really. The first hard mode was Sarth 3d and that changed the fight radically. Mimiron, Hodir, Freya and general vezax all had pretty interesting mechanics introduced as part of their hard modes. In ICC, they basically took existing mechanics and made them harder (goo from pp in fester, aoe dmg from stacks in sindra, entire raid to frostmourne room in lk, bone spikes during bone storm). Really the only NEW mechanic in a fight is in Prof Putricide where they introduce the disease mechanic, but even this is adapted from the lk fight and the weekly quest. Apart from that one fight, every other fight is merely a "try it on hard" version instead of a new version of the fight to learn. Again, good for the lowest common denominator but not for people raiding for the challenge which is what vanilla and tbc were about.

Magill

Overheal wrote: »

That might have to do with being a Tank..

There are many meters.

Overheal

Dustaz wrote: »

I mean the smug "your behaviour in this thread" comments are in line with the "attack the post not the poster" bollix that boards has become. That line was as much a red rag to nix as his more direct comment about defecation in headwear yet he gets banned. Its a completely offtopic thing, it just annoys the hell out of me and is pretty much the reason i havent used any forum outside of the games cat since 2005.

Ohhh.... so now this is because Im newer to Boards.ie than you; not newer than you to WoW.

You'll get over it.

This goes back to my main point at the beginning of the thread. They add mindcontrol to the 10 man heroic version. Its PART OF the 25 man normal version. In 25 man heroic, the differences are that the boss is untauntable (tanks need to fight for threat), the adds continue spawning (3 per wave) and the spirits explode in an aoe.

Ergo, the 10 man fight (like every other 10 man fight in the game) is EASIER than the 25 man version. Not from a 'well its easier to get 10 people together', but from a mechanic point of view. If they want to bring the 2 closer to parity, its going to exclude some new 'casual' raiders. If they bring the 25 man standards down to the 10 man, it will weaken the raiding game even more than it is already and will continue to hand epics out on a plate.

Do i think theyll change it? Not really. The first hard mode was Sarth 3d and that changed the fight radically. Mimiron, Hodir, Freya and general vezax all had pretty interesting mechanics introduced as part of their hard modes. In ICC, they basically took existing mechanics and made them harder (goo from pp in fester, aoe dmg from stacks in sindra, entire raid to frostmourne room in lk, bone spikes during bone storm). Really the only NEW mechanic in a fight is in Prof Putricide where they introduce the disease mechanic, but even this is adapted from the lk fight and the weekly quest. Apart from that one fight, every other fight is merely a "try it on hard" version instead of a new version of the fight to learn.

Theres not much I can say to that, the point is sound. I don't think we'll know anything for certain until it goes live mind. As in will fewer people be doing 10 mans because they like the epic feel of the larger 25 mans? Or will they stick to 10 mans because theres no point in going for the 25. Can't be sure.

Again, good for the lowest common denominator but not for people raiding for the challenge which is what vanilla and tbc were about.

Well like Nix said its an industry for Activision-Blizzard and they want to cater to the largest portion of the playerbase.

I think again, its a matter of waiting to see the changes first hand, and having a go at the heroics and seeing how different the fight mechanics are.

Magill wrote: »

There are many meters.

Big Meh from me. When Hunters do their job and im not in a pissing match with a Bear thats way more geared than me I do just fine. But like I said I don't have any hangups about being a rookie raider.

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

As in will fewer people be doing 10 mans because they like the epic feel of the larger 25 mans? Or will they stick to 10 mans because theres no point in going for the 25. Can't be sure.

I think there'll always be a point to 25s if only cos it gives out more loot. Im pretty sure however that there will always be some upside apart from that to doing 25s, if not why not just do away with it altogether?

Well like Nix said its an industry for Activision-Blizzard and they want to cater to the largest portion of the playerbase.

Why not put a lever in dalaran. Every 24 hours you get to pull the lever and you have a 60% chance of getting 5 badges, a 30% chance of getting a random epic and a 10% chance to get t10 for your class. Everyone gets loot, and you dont have to fight through your busy schedule to make time to raid. Sounds like a great solution so that everyone is happy.

Wait though, thats really boring, theres no challenge. Think ill quit and give another game a go.

So that example is one extreme and Vanilla raiding (naxx40 particularly) might be another extreme (altho FF players might have some ideas on what extreme is). The trick is getting the balance right. At the moment, i think the balance is off and is veering towards the lever. thats my worry.

nix

Heh, i remember my first 5man heroic took me the guts of 7 hours to complete and we won an epic that nobody could use but we had a blast of a time going through the instance and thinking up crazy tactics to get passed certain mobs..

Now you can do all of the heroics in that time frame, heck maybe even half of it if ya have a good group.

There is NO challenge in 5mans anymore, its just pull and aoe.

When in old heroics you had to utilise crowd control, mages sheeping, rogues sapping, hunters kiting, priests shackling etc, now they are only for pvp really..

They are taking away the need to learn your class and making it so you need to only learn one spell rotation, which takes a whole minute :rolleyes:

Ill type more later, finished work now

TheDoc

nix wrote: »

Heh, i remember my first 5man heroic took me the guts of 7 hours to complete and we won an epic that nobody could use but we had a blast of a time going through the instance and thinking up crazy tactics to get passed certain mobs..

Now you can do all of the heroics in that time frame, heck maybe even half of it if ya have a good group.

There is NO challenge in 5mans anymore, its just pull and aoe.

When in old heroics you had to utilise crowd control, mages sheeping, rogues sapping, hunters kiting, priests shackling etc, now they are only for pvp really..

They are taking away the need to learn your class and making it so you need to only learn one spell rotation, which takes a whole minute :rolleyes:

Ill type more later, finished work now

I think this is a mute point tbh.

Beforehand we didnt have a lfg tool. We didnt have this pretty much streamlined fast access to heroic conente gear.

We are outgearing content quicker then ever before. And lets not forget we are at a tailgate of an expansion. wotlk heroics were challenging enough at the proepr tier level.

As regards to crowd control etc, blizzard has acknowledged it will make a comeback in Cata. I dont like the CC mechanic becuase of the possabiliyty of it being resisted or diminishing returns, and all of a sudden your dead cause of a faulty game mechanic.

However on the comment of "spell rotations".

This has been the case since the begining, you got a rotation that worked and you stuck to it. In recent years more avenues have become widespread so that " class guides" are everywhere. So obviously yeah its going to be a bit streamlined and not unique.

Overheal

Dustaz wrote: »

Why not put a lever in dalaran. Every 24 hours you get to pull the lever and you have a 60% chance of getting 5 badges, a 30% chance of getting a random epic and a 10% chance to get t10 for your class. Everyone gets loot, and you dont have to fight through your busy schedule to make time to raid. Sounds like a great solution so that everyone is happy.

Wait though, thats really boring, theres no challenge. Think ill quit and give another game a go.

So that example is one extreme and Vanilla raiding (naxx40 particularly) might be another extreme (altho FF players might have some ideas on what extreme is). The trick is getting the balance right. At the moment, i think the balance is off and is veering towards the lever. thats my worry.

Thats why I stopped playing TF2 for a long...long time, actually. When they replaced the Achievement-based weapon unlocks with Random Drops. What a ****ing mess.

Magill

I hope the old republic is good

TheDoc

if you want to play an mmo that makes you physically age before getting any sort of self achievement, go play Aion.

The self confessed grindy slut that is...

I think the time it took me to get level 40 i could have had two level 80's

Overheal

Magill wrote: »

I hope the old republic is good

wtf is up with that anyway... in SWG they changed it from 1 in 1000 accounts randomly could become Jedi (through an arduous questline) and when they changed this to everyone could have a shot at it - this apparently ruined the game

When is it just a case of complainers or complaining, really

TheDoc

The above did not ruin the game.

The above probably brought more people into the game, it was ahowever a move to a new gameplay system that prompted most players to quit, it was horrendous, and I think the biggest mistake any company in the games market ever made.

It was easily going to be up there competing with wow until that patch change, and anyone that was anyone left.