Cataclysm raiding changes (Massive)

witless1

Just a few comments on what has been said

nix wrote: »

Interaction replaced with Gearscore and que based instances requiring little to no effort.

Gearscore came from the community so it's hardly fair to factor that in for bringing down the standards. If anything the queue based instances brought more interaction and made me do random dungeons rather then standing around Dalaran looking for a group. For the odd random dungeon I do now I still shout in our Irish channel to see if a couple of heads want to join me.

nix wrote: »

Gathering mats replaced with frozen orbs and whoever has control of WG

Not really. I don't know how much you use the Auction house but the trade off for frozen orbs --> raw materials upset the market prices for about 3 weeks, things are back to normal now. No one is going to go farm heroics for frozen orbs to convert to other mats. The time investment and the fact you are not guaranteed to win one is a barrier. As for gathering mats, things like herbs, sarnoite and leather have a constant supply and market.

nix wrote: »

World PvP non existent unless your beating the crap out of some lost leveling soul that hasnt got a flying mount which is rare, the only world pvp we get is in WG which is on every 3hrs is it? And has terrible balancing issues on low pop servers..

That's probably server specific and what you described isn't world PVP it's ganking :P Doing a few daily quests and waiting for ICC brings a decent bit of PVP on my server (same as Dustaz/TheDoc). If you want world PVP it's a matter of going looking for it, go to WG when the opposite faction control it, go to quest locations for dailys and go to popular farming spots.

I agree with you on the rep side of things, was never a fan of it at all in any way, shape or form. Same with Dalarn, it is full of people who are bored! If I log into the game I log in for a reason, to do an instance, do a few quests etc. When I am finished I don't stand around Dala semi AFK, I log off! Again that's a community thing, people who are bored sit in trade to keep themselves somehow entertained.

nix wrote: »

And now they are making 25mans pointless, why put up with the stress of 25mans when you can just go and faceroll the 10mans??

10 man's are not faceroll if you tackle the content with the gear that the instance was intended for. Case and point is the 10 man strict rankings on Guildox.

TheDoc wrote: »

All blizzard have done is reduce barriers to entry since vanilla. As said above, they shaved a few hours of raiding time for stupid ****, like getting attuned to raids and gathering pots and buffs, absolutely ridiculous time sinks completely unnecessary.

Getting resistance gear was a nightmare. Waiting 4-6 weeks to kill Mother Sheraz because the raid needed a raw material to craft resistance gear was pointless. Attunements I didn't so much mind, they gave you a sense of accomplishment and you knew where you stood progression wise. They were a well thought out barrier particularly with BT/MH, they stopped a lot of guilds walking in there and QQing because they were wiping due to gear level.



The one thing that I don't agree with is the rolling ICC buffs, they are pointless as it will not teach you fight mechanics. I can have a 100% damage buff but if I stand in fire / void zones / *insert gimmick* I will fall over. People might want to try some of the hard modes in a purer form but no guild or PUG wants to endure wiping unnecessarily, not when they can dumb the requirements down by a set percentage and pick up a higher iLvl of gear. The game is still very much an MMO in terms of interaction, trading, crafting and raiding.

Magill

so nix.. whats ur current icc progress then ? since current content is so easy.

How long did it take you to get 0 keepers ?

0s3d ?

5/5 TOGC25 ?

Wotlk content is anything but easy

tman

nix banned for a week.
Play nice when you get back

Overheal

witless1 wrote: »

Just a few comments on what has been said



Gearscore came from the community so it's hardly fair to factor that in for bringing down the standards. If anything the queue based instances brought more interaction and made me do random dungeons rather then standing around Dalaran looking for a group. For the odd random dungeon I do now I still shout in our Irish channel to see if a couple of heads want to join me.

It was a welcome change. Rather than spam Trade Chat for 2 hours to get a group together for some obscure dungeon on the opposite continent - bam. There you go.

I can see why its a bitch not to have to travel out to blackfathom depths (and spend anywhere from 15-45 minutes doing so) but I'd rather get in and get done. Ive already explored Azeroth and gotten all the flight paths, and even Metroid as mentioned above pisses me off to no end with the amount of back-tracking that is built into the game :pac:

You want to go out into the world, go questing

As for getting to know people, you encounter people from your same realm, so you can always recruit etc. - and whats more I got on speaking terms with specific players from Moon Guard while I was leveling. Me and a Healer were leveling at the same rate, me and her just ran dungeons all through our 30s 40s and 50s.

10 man's are not faceroll if you tackle the content with the gear that the instance was intended for. Case and point is the 10 man strict rankings on Guildox.

The other factor being that 10s and 25s will drop homogenous gear in Cataclysm, and will be difficulty-balanced. Meaning there should be no facerolling between one or the other. None of this doing raids in 245s that were meant for 232s, etc.

Getting resistance gear was a nightmare. Waiting 4-6 weeks to kill Mother Sheraz because the raid needed a raw material to craft resistance gear was pointless. Attunements I didn't so much mind, they gave you a sense of accomplishment and you knew where you stood progression wise. They were a well thought out barrier particularly with BT/MH, they stopped a lot of guilds walking in there and QQing because they were wiping due to gear level.

Yeah but theres not attunement anymore but theres still Man-checks. Thats why for example the first encounter in Halls of Reflection is the hardest, its a coordination check as much as anything. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

red_ice

tman wrote: »

nix banned for a week.
Play nice when you get back

Banned for what? Conversing?

Overheal

red_ice wrote: »

Banned for what? Conversing?

...

nix wrote:

Go shit in your hat

tman

Yup... Conversing / abuse
Which side of the line would you consider that to be on?

Magill

zzzzZZZZZZZZ, mod's spoiling a good thread, thanks tman.

Silverfish

People are expected to remain civil. Personal abuse is not allowed, and neither is discussing moderation on-thread. If you have an issue, either pm the mod or cmod.

Back on topic.

Magill

"Go **** in your hat"

Hardly personal abuse, but yeah whatever, thanks for ruining a good debate.

Silverfish

Magill wrote: »

"Go **** in your hat"

Hardly personal abuse, but yeah whatever, thanks for ruining a good debate.

I suggest you read the charter of this forum.

This is a final warning, the debate is not 'ruined', feel free to continue with the topic.

Overheal

One thing I will say about the general argument, that some people seem to want to carry, which is this eliminates grinding, time and effort.

In regular game design, you always start out small, overcome some hurdles, and are usually rewarded with a neat tool/powerup that helps you overcome those same obstacles again later. Conversely, you use that tool to help you overcome even larger obstacles or challenges.

WoW is 5+ years old. People have leveled characters; grinded rep and rare mats and gems. How long should they reasonably be expected to do that? After a while it becomes a chore, not fun. I used to enjoy mining ore for a while. Then I stopped. I got bored of it.

Similarly, I leveled to 80 much in part to getting exalted with Sons of Hodir, which also so happened to be a Rep I needed for a tanking enchant. Great! But, if I decide later, I want to make a new toon, why do I need to prove to the Server-Gods that I can do it again? Ive already done it.. So Blizzard gets that. They get that I the player have grinded the achievement. And so all my toons should benefit from (some of) that same effort, through arcanums and heirlooms.

TheDoc

Essentially all of the PvE changes together seem aimed to disincentivize 25s, is there some reasoning as to why 25s are no longer being encouraged?
Our goal through Wrath of the Lich King was that players could choose 10 or 25 as a personal preference. We think we missed that mark though. Because 25s still provided more powerful rewards, it felt like that was the “real” raiding, and 10s were what you did on off-nights, or if you just couldn’t stomach the logistics of recruiting or pugging 10 more players. We know there are a lot of players out there who just prefer to raid 10s but felt like we didn’t deliver on our promise to let them just raid 10s. The Cataclysm model is to let players raid 10s or 25s as they see fit. There are advantages and disadvantages to both raid sizes. The larger raids can feel more epic, yet the smaller ones tend to have less loot drama because there is less competition per item that drops. The smaller raids in some sense are more hardcore, because there are fewer opportunities to include novice raiders or folks who just aren’t carrying their weight.

We understand that changes like this can cause social upheaval and we didn’t make the decision lightly. The community was similarly concerned when we removed 40-player raids (and we literally did remove those; today we’re just offering an alternative to the larger raids). We think there is a non-trivial audience of players who prefer the 25-player raids and we’re going to continue to support them. We tried many different raiding models in Wrath of the Lich King with regard to Heroic modes and lockouts, and rest assured that if we don’t like how the 4.0 raiding game evolves that we will revisit it for 4.1.

Thats taken from a blue post, and touches on the points I was making, if not more direct and straight forward in the above

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

Yeah but theres not attunement anymore but theres still Man-checks. Thats why for example the first encounter in Halls of Reflection is the hardest, its a coordination check as much as anything. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

Why are you talking about heroic dungeons in a thread about raiding?

Overheal

Dustaz wrote: »

Why are you talking about heroic dungeons in a thread about raiding?

More about the instance experience, and game balance, and game design, in general.

The comment was to address the removal of attunement to raid encounters. To which my response was that attunement made sure you were ready for a particular instance by forcing you through hurdles, per each toon. With things like HoR and ToC, you have optional attunements/checks that will let you know just how ready you are; but are not essential to entering ICC, for example. Its become a preferred solution, especially given that most of the toons around nowadays are alts.

witless1

Overheal wrote: »

. Its why ToC is basically and narratively expressed as a test to enter ICC - you dont have to do it, but thats kinda the point of the whole Argent Tournament, and ToC, and the 232s therein. Its attunement without the attunement.

Yeah that certainly is the case and it does makes sense from a lore and storyline point of view. The attunement system is something that I liked and disliked at the same time. Getting attuned to Onyxia was a massive pain especially when new to the game! The system for MH/BT was enjoyable as well, a natural barrier to progression and a long quest chain built in which involved raiding. Those kind of tests made you feel like you were at the right level, well at least it made me feel like I was doing something right!

The annoying part, and the part I am glad has been removed, was going back and attuning others (and your own alts) until a patch came along to unlock everything. The current system for "attuning" a raid to hard modes is something I like and hope it continues in Wrath.

Nehaxak

I just wish they'd introduce cross server pug raiding, as they did with dungeons.

While I'd understand the complexity and the cons in all of that, it means at least I can jump in a raid whenever I decide to play - at least for 10 mans anyway, without locking you to the raid until the last boss is dead.

Leave the 25 mans alone, no, make them harder so guilds actually have a purpose other than the social aspect.

I gave up and lost interest in raiding due to having to wait on others to be there on time and ready with flasks, knowing tactics, having the gear, la la la etc., etc., That and giving up my time to be there, looking forward to it but ending up just pissed off as others don't turn up or we're short a tank/healer/dps is crap/whatever.

It can also be both too elitist and retarded with same server pugs, alright not all of them but really, in all honesty, the vast majority are.

Take the system they introduced with Dungeons and try it out with 10 man raiding cross server and they'll be on to a winner imo. I'd like to see it changed where you can literally just jump in and out of 10 man raids when you feel like it, including as a guild, maybe short a tank and a healer, sure pick them up from the cross server queue and see how it goes, no harm.

Reserve the best of the gear for the 25 mans, normal/heroic, whatever suits.

red_ice

tman wrote: »

Yup... Conversing / abuse
Which side of the line would you consider that to be on?

conversing. Not abuse

Silverfish

Please read the charter. Discussion of moderating decisions in-thread is off-topic.

Overheal

I can see why it would be unwelcome to introduce an LFR tool though. The Guild structure would have little left to stand on wouldnt it? Guilds are where people get together, buddy up, and go on premade BGs or Raids. You cant really do that cross-realm. And as successful as the Dungeon Finder is its still limited by that, in that it does limit the social aspect of being paired with people you like to play with on a consistent basis.

I guess it could happen and maybe thats why theyre introducing new Guild Progression mechanics, though. And I also suppose it wouldnt be too bad if people wanted to solo/pug raids; it would certainly help cut out a lot of the riff raff from guild recruitment; people who can't/won't bother to listen, or abide by your Guild Guidelines, etc.

TheDoc

There is a world of people out there without guilds that a LFR would do wonders for.

You do know why pugs run dont you? Cause some people cant be arsed with raiding times, and just want to do things when they want.

A LFR tool would be fantastic. The amount of times I've been hanging about with nothing to do, with up to 3icc raids I could be doing.

Guilds wont fall apart or become obsolete, even speculating it is pretty retarded imo. NO PUG WILL EVVVVVEERRRR keep up progression with a guild. 25man pugs on my server are still failing at putricide, so thats 4/6. Guilds are on 11/12 hard modes at this stage. So a LFR tool wouldnt frown down on guilds, it would be for people without guilds, and people who dont want them, and people with alts.
If they brought in a system where as a raid leader, you could see a panel with people looking for the same raid, and see their achievements and experience, and a flipout chart of their gear (NOT GAYSCORE!), then it would also, completely, solve the ever problem of trade LFG spam.

And all this without even factoring in the HUGE benefits coming to guilds in cata.

Overheal

Not fair....we're 10m and we finally got down Festergut

Would be farther but we only do 6 ICC hours a week and the GM is adamant that we not extend for loot reasons.

Robby91

I just wish they'd introduce cross server pug raiding, as they did with dungeons.

Well, it'd be a pain in the ass if you had some random idiot(s) opting to join as tank without any tank-oriented gear whatsoever (as I often see in random Heroics :P) - same could probably apply to healers, but I've never really seen it happen with a healer.

It would be nice to see how it would work (and if it would be viable, although I'd stick with guild runs :P), although Blizzard would really need to implement some sort of internal gear check before allowing you to pick a specific role (particularly for hybrid classes with melee and caster specs).

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

I can see why it would be unwelcome to introduce an LFR tool though. The Guild structure would have little left to stand on wouldnt it?

The guild structure would begin to look a whole lot more attractive about 20 seconds after a LFR raid tool came in.

A LFR tool would be a NIGHTMARE. Unqualified Tanks, healers and dps in every raid. ninja looting on an unprecedented scale. If you think pugs are bad now, take current ones and multiply by 1000 and your at the scale of a lfr raid.

The gear matching thing doesnt really work for the dungeon finder but its not a proglem because its only heroics. Now picture yourself about to pull marrowgar with 2 tanks in pvp gear, healers healing in offspec and not a single gem or enchant on any of their gear. There is no real way to prevent a situation like this without a massive amount of overhaul of the system.

Theres also a big difference between explaining the tactics for the violet hold and something like Sindragosa. The system would have to have some sort of 'link ach plx' built in or its a LOT of work for the raid leader.

Speaking of which, do you want a ret paladin from another realm masterlooting every piece of equipement to himself? Thats whatll happen if ML is allowed. Internet + gaming + anonomity = instant arsehole. Even with the current dungeon finder looting system, your going to get tanks rolling on dps stuff, dps rolling on healing stuff etc. People will just roll need if they can and thats fine if your expectation of loot handling is really that far in the basement but for people with half a clue on how things actually should be its not that fine.

Sure it would benefit this mythical "casual raider" who doesnt have time to raid but has time to LFR raid. How long would they remain a casual raider after every piece of a loot they wanted went to someone from another servers offspec or they spent 2 hours wiping on northrend beasts?

I have trouble believing in this casual raider anyway. Doc says:

A LFR tool would be fantastic. The amount of times I've been hanging about with nothing to do, with up to 3icc raids I could be doing.

Eh? You're trying to tell me you cant find a raid? How is this possible, Trade is unreadable these days with the spam from 20 people making ICC groups. How is it possible you cant find one? Maybe you dont want to go with a pug of terrible players, thats fine. But beleieve me, theyd be Ensidia compared to an LFR raid.

As to people who 'dont have time to raid'. How? How dont you have time to raid? ToC takes 40 mins. VoA takes 10. ICC 4/12 takes about 30-40 minutes. A decent pug of icc10 that goes to rotface or even DW will take about 2 hours. This is hardly the stuff of Naxx40 lads. Raiding is more entry level than it ever was before and with cataclysm its NOT going to get any easier to raid. If anything its going to get harder.

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

More about the instance experience, and game balance, and game design, in general.

This thread has nothing to do with those things, its about raiding.

The comment was to address the removal of attunement to raid encounters. To which my response was that attunement made sure you were ready for a particular instance by forcing you through hurdles, per each toon. With things like HoR and ToC, you have optional attunements/checks that will let you know just how ready you are; but are not essential to entering ICC, for example. Its become a preferred solution, especially given that most of the toons around nowadays are alts.

HoR and ToC have nothing at all to do with ICC and TotC past the lore tie-ins. Just because you got boosted through HoR does not mean you are somehow 'ready' for icc. What the hell are you talking about? In fact just stop.

witless1 wrote: »

The attunement system is something that I liked and disliked at the same time. Getting attuned to Onyxia was a massive pain especially when new to the game! The system for MH/BT was enjoyable as well, a natural barrier to progression and a long quest chain built in which involved raiding. Those kind of tests made you feel like you were at the right level, well at least it made me feel like I was doing something right!

I couldnt agree more. I Also liked and disliked attunments for the exact same reasons. I LOVED having something to aim for and the sense of achievement of getting attuned to each tier of content was something i miss to this day. TBC was fantastic for that, each raid required seomthing from the previous raid to enter it and that was great.

Alts was indeed a problem back in tbc, however with the changes to raiding in wotlk i dont see it as a problem these days. Is it really that hard to do 5/5 totc? it really really isnt. and tbh if you cant manage that, you probably shouldnt be in icc.

The annoying part, and the part I am glad has been removed, was going back and attuning others (and your own alts) until a patch came along to unlock everything. The current system for "attuning" a raid to hard modes is something I like and hope it continues in Wrath.[/QUOTE]

Overheal

Dustaz wrote: »

Just because you got boosted through HoR does not mean you are somehow 'ready' for icc.

Excuse me? Do you even know anything about my toon? Or me?

Why dont you stop yourself, mate.

TBC was fantastic for that, each raid required seomthing from the previous raid to enter it and that was great.

So what youre saying is if this were TBC, you would have needed to complete ToC to enter ICC

Sounds exactly like what I was trying to say before you tried to discredit my point. Pot calling the Kettle black.

TheDoc

Dustaz wrote: »

I have trouble believing in this casual raider anyway. Doc says:

Eh? You're trying to tell me you cant find a raid? How is this possible, Trade is unreadable these days with the spam from 20 people making ICC groups. How is it possible you cant find one? Maybe you dont want to go with a pug of terrible players, thats fine. But beleieve me, theyd be Ensidia compared to an LFR raid.

I ment at the time sim usually free, 12pm - 3am is usually dead for me outside of irish raids : /

Venom

never had a problem with having both 10 and 25 man raid in the game tbh. Guess if it means more raid encounters overall it wont be such a bad thing.

Dustaz

Overheal wrote: »

Excuse me? Do you even know anything about my toon? Or me?

Maybe i should have said "one" instead of "you". I meant that generically.

So what youre saying is if this were TBC, you would have needed to complete ToC to enter ICC

Sounds exactly like what I was trying to say before you tried to discredit my point. Pot calling the Kettle black.

Since you mentioned HoR, i assume you mean ToC and not TotC. Ill work under that assumption.

Again, 5 mans have nothing to do with raids.

Overheal

Thats a terrible assumption to make: I meant ToC, the raid.

Also HoR - I mean, whats the point of Attunement then? You had to Attune yourself in Blackfathom Depths to Molten Core, for instance. What was the point of that? Attuning to a 40 man in a 5 man? Surely not(!)