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Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Hungerford wrote: »
    Here's something you can't make up.

    IE decided that the so-called special from Rosslare to Dublin shouldn't actually be run. They then brought it back to Dublin out of service. Seems to have been a decoy designed to prove there was no demand for such services.

    It seems that the regular train (deferred by an hour) coped with the load so that the extra was not needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I can report live from the 0730 ex Rosslare. The train is half empty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The ferry companies seem to mostly want passengers with bikes, cars or on coaches but not plain foot passengers. If there's a logic there about yield per passenger or capacity or something I'd love for someone to fill me in.

    By the way - I didn't know Holyhead was in England...

    By the way folks - mark the calendar - this is a day of days. Someone who wants to travel from Wellingtonbridge to Dublin via Rosslare can actually do so (arr Rosslare Hbr 1829 dep 1851).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Just to clarify some complete misinformation posted on another thread.

    Trains to/from Fishguard to not operate to/from London but from Cardiff or Swansea. Through services stopped some years ago, and now terminate at Swansea.

    Arriva Trains Wales operate normally two car DMUs on the service, but these are currently being strengthened I understand.

    The Iarnrod Eireann services from Rosslare are either 3-car 22K or 4 car 28K.

    Therefore capacities are similar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Southsider1


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The ferry companies seem to mostly want passengers with bikes, cars or on coaches but not plain foot passengers. If there's a logic there about yield per passenger or capacity or something I'd love for someone to fill me in.

    I asked someone in Stena the same question and he explained that for years the number of foot passengers dropped (advent of cheap flights etc) so they never bothered upgrading foot passenger facilities - gangways etc... So nowadays they transfer foot passengers from terminal to boat by bus (in most but not all ports) directly onto ferry. They generally don't take foot passengers on the overnight sailings as theyt would have to have a coach driver there specially and in general for 10-15 passengers it wasn't worth it. Now, this week, they were caught unawares but have, apparantley, got a coach driver for the overnights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hungerford wrote: »
    Here's something you can't make up.

    IE decided that the so-called special from Rosslare to Dublin shouldn't actually be run. They then brought it back to Dublin out of service. Seems to have been a decoy designed to prove there was no demand for such services.
    they sent an empty train off down to rosslare to pick up a load of passengers but then decided to bring it back again empty? you are right this is very hard to believe but probably at the cheaper end of irish rails wasteful decisions


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    I see on RTE BA are landing 11 planes from the states in Shannon tonight. The line to Wexford could be busy tomorrow, if there are any connections of course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    they sent an empty train off down to rosslare to pick up a load of passengers but then decided to bring it back again empty? you are right this is very hard to believe but probably at the cheaper end of irish rails wasteful decisions

    The existing Rosslare/Dublin train was delayed to connect with the ship. It actually managed to cope with the load without any bother.

    A second train was sent down empty in case the first train could not cope. As it turned out it was not required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I see on RTE BA are landing 11 planes from the states in Shannon tonight. The line to Wexford could be busy tomorrow, if there are any connections of course.
    Some of those have already departed and are on their wa to Heathrow.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Watching Primetime earlier and the interview with the Icelandic president, who basically stated that it is probable that Katla will blow within 5 to ten years and due to its bigger size and its abrasive deposits will have an even more devastating effect on air travel in the northern hemisphere.

    The probable upshot of this is that the "strategic importance" of ferries and rail links such as Rosslare etc may now come more into focus as governments realise how quickly air transport can be shut down by these events. In fact the President advised of the importance of contingency plans being put in place by the affected countries over the coming years to cope with such an event.

    So there we are! How about that for a turn in events ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Well it's an ill wind but you don't really think the morons in Govt. and CIE are going to retain the Waterford/Rosslare line in case there is another volcanic eruption at some unspecified date in the future? :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Well it's an ill wind but you don't really think the morons in Govt. and CIE are going to retain the Waterford/Rosslare line in case there is another volcanic eruption at some unspecified date in the future? :rolleyes:

    The post was about what the Icelandic President advised and he should know as he lives beside these volcanoes. What I think is irrelevant - please don't shoot the messenger ! :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    From today's Irish Times (21/4/10) Letters to the Editor page.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224268770758

    Joined up thinking down the tracks
    Madam, – With this island’s utter dependence on external connectivity never having been more clearly exposed, we might do well to look at how our internal surface transport system feeds into our international linkages.

    Since last Thursday, record numbers of weary travellers returning to or visiting Ireland have unexpectedly yet gratefully found themselves rerouted via Welsh and French ports through Rosslare Europort. In response, in a bid ‘’to facilitate ferry passengers’’ (according to the Iarnród Éireann website), Monday’s 17.55 Rosslare-Dublin train was exceptionally held back to 18.45.

    The national rail company is to be congratulated on this sensible decision.

    Normally, those catching this sailing arrive back in Ireland a galling five minutes after what is the day’s last train northwards has already left.

    However, this sudden flexibility begs the question why a joined-up scheduling arrangement is not already permanently in place across the system? Could it be that rail timetables are not designed primarily to suit the travelling public? One might have imagined that having the hugely valuable resource of a pair of national rail lines terminating at a port within Iarnród Éireann’s ownership would logically mean that train and ferry times might correspond in order to attract a steady stream of patrons. This is standard practice elsewhere and was the case here some years ago but is now apparently only something to be reconsidered upon completion of IE’s track renewal programme.

    Perhaps the company is waiting for the ferry companies to change their schedules to suit it? With recent media reports revealing that over 100 modern train carriages are lying idle, it is good to know that there is clearly no operational reason why this particular later service, having been pressed into action in extremis, cannot be retained. The next step is that the 19.30 Wexford-Dublin service might also commence at the port in order to serve those arriving on the final daily service from Pembroke (18.45).

    Passengers heading from Rosslare towards Waterford, Limerick and beyond over the past few days at least had the comfort of a train waiting for them.

    That’s assuming that they happened to be on the red-eye sailing from Pembroke (except the Sunday crossing) and could sprint the almost 1km to the train platform within 15 minutes of scheduled 6:45 docking. They won’t have that facility in a few weeks’ time when that line is closed. Little wonder, given institutional efforts to discommode potential passengers. – Yours, etc,

    RONAN GINGLES,
    Avenue Michel-Ange,
    Brussels,
    Belgium.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Southsider1


    my thoughts precisely!;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Spot on, that man!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The facebook campaign spearheaded by Labour County Councillor, Joe Ryan, is continuing to build up a good head of steam - sorry - with plenty of coverage in the local papers this week. I will post here tomorrow. In the meantime here is a You Tube video of a recent protest at Rosslare Euroshack. More than 2,300 members on the Facebook campaign - are YOU on it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class


    The facebook campaign spearheaded by Labour County Councillor, Joe Ryan, is continuing to build up a good head of steam - sorry - with plenty of coverage in the local papers this week. I will post here tomorrow. In the meantime here is a You Tube video of a recent protest at Rosslare Euroshack. More than 2,300 members on the Facebook campaign - are YOU on it?


    I wonder how many of them travelled to Rosslare yo-yo-port by Train??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    GM071class wrote: »
    I wonder how many of them travelled to Rosslare yo-yo-port by Train??

    That comment is unworthy of you and is straight from the Todd Andrews school of spin. It's a bit like people who say nobody uses the train but neglect to say that the useless service provided makes it virtually unuseable. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    That comment is unworthy of you and is straight from the Todd Andrews school of spin. It's a bit like people who say nobody uses the train but neglect to say that the useless service provided makes it virtually unuseable. :D


    Just proves that trainspotters don't really care about the rail network. Straight from the horses mouth - there you have it. They take a million photos of the same loco they are madly in love with and could not care one bit about the rail network.

    No wonder CIE/IE management look after the locosexual's every whim.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,577 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    Just proves that trainspotters don't really care about the rail network. Straight from the horses mouth - there you have it. They take a million photos of the same loco they are madly in love with and could not care one bit about the rail network.

    No wonder CIE/IE management look after the locosexual's every whim.

    You couldn't be further from the truth. Despite the anorak cliche that goes with trainspotters,most live in the real world,not in some sort of Steam&Diesel wonderland. Many people i talked to last week on the IRRS tour were as annoyed as people on boards.ie/facebook groups etc. about the shennanigans of IE in relation to the South Wexford line. None want to see it closed,most reckoned it was deliberately sabotaged by IE with the sole aim of closure.

    I don't think GM071's question was loaded with spin,just the realism that it's the sort of thing that Barry Kenny would throw back at the protesters in the media,"how many got the train to Rosslare" for the protest?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class


    Just proves that trainspotters don't really care about the rail network. Straight from the horses mouth - there you have it. They take a million photos of the same loco they are madly in love with and could not care one bit about the rail network.

    No wonder CIE/IE management look after the locosexual's every whim.


    Also I was trying to show that its practically impossible to get the train down there to anywhere!!

    FotW, I'm not your normal 'spotter',
    I do go for a day out on the tours, however, I also use the rail network right across Ireland, NI, and the U.K.
    And particularly, I've used Rosslare Europort more times than I care to remember, and only once was that as a 'trainspotter'..

    I now have to get the bus down (great service by BÉ) to Rosslare because the trains are designed not to suit the ferry passengers.

    Not everybody who enjoys railways as a hobby, is a herd liner Locosexual, however you do appear to be suffering from internalised locophobia ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    This interesting half page ad from this week's Wexford Echo.

    echo003.jpg

    and this full page of editorial - a slightly eccentric piece which labours under the illusion that railways were built to transport people rather than make a profit. :rolleyes: Still it all helps keep the story in the news and may make Noel Dempsey choke on his cornflakes.

    echo004.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭GM071class


    I might be thinking out loud here, -well with my keyboard- but I was pondering over lunch about how to stop, or at least delay, the line closure.

    As we all know Petitions don't work, IÉ just ignore them, even political intervention seems not to hold no water at all either.

    'Flash mobs', albeit with a twist, came to my mind. If everybody when they were down in the Waterford/Wexford region were to take the train in one direction or the other, it'd make the line profitable and they couldn't push the closure through.

    It seemed like at least an idea, but then I started roughly crunching the figures.

    According to IÉ; 12.5 passengers use each train per operating day.
    They also said that it gives 2% of the total operating cost.
    So taking simple maths, that's 625 passengers a day each way, and that's just to break even! :eek:

    That's never possible, However this is the burning question for the management, If 1 railway line can't sutain itself, should it be scrapped altogether?
    The more logical way to think of it is not as a separate entity at all, Why can't the Dublin-Wexford, Dublin-Waterford, and Rosslare-Limerick Jcn be all considered as the same network section?
    This way losses, and gains, can be shared between the 3 lines.

    I think the approach to take by the local Politicians, and support groups, should be to change the way IÉ's management think about the line.

    This is what happens when businessmen run a railway in a low-density country, It's only considered in figures, not the sometimes all to vital links to local communities.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    GM071class wrote: »

    Not everybody who enjoys railways as a hobby, is a herd liner Locosexual, however you do appear to be suffering from internalised locophobia ;)

    +1


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    Just proves that trainspotters don't really care about the rail network. Straight from the horses mouth - there you have it. They take a million photos of the same loco they are madly in love with and could not care one bit about the rail network.

    Thats a very narrow and misinformed view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    Thats a very narrow and misinformed view.

    I freely admit I want to make love to a certain A Class locomotive. There is just something about an original bogie coil sping nuts which get me hot.

    But even though I enjoy destroyingthe centrefold spread in Traction Magazine, for me the railways as a functioning piece of infrastruture comes first.

    I would gladly give up my jar of GM axle greese to save Wex-Rosslare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    I freely admit I want to make love to a certain A Class locomotive. There is just something about an original bogie coil sping nuts which get me hot.

    What ever does it for you.

    There are enthusiasts out there who would have some knowledge/interest in locomotives and such but would still have a clear head to see the railway as a piece of transport infrastructure. Whether or not I would personally class myself as an enthusiast these days is not certain - I'd rather see the network run by semi-frequent efficient railcar stock than have old loco hauled trains a few times a day. I'm sure that most enthusiasts and/or spotters would like to see the Rosslare-Waterford line kept open. I'm not into it myself but if they want to take photos on a railtour thats their hobby and isn't harming any one or inhibiting the development of the network.

    Like others on this board here I believe IÉ should try to develop services along the South Wexford route before writing it off. But sniping at trainspotters and enthusiasts is not going to achieve anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,577 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    Like others on this board here I believe IÉ should try to develop services along the South Wexford route before writing it off. But sniping at trainspotters and enthusiasts is not going to achieve anything.

    An ideal solution would be for IE to re-draft the timetable for the south Wexford line,make it more suitable for commuters,connect with the ferries etc. and then put it into effect and give it a year to see if the passenger numbers increase.

    If a year down the line the passenger numbers are still crap,then IE can say that they gave it a shot and the people of Wexford/Waterford obviously don't want to use the service. Then with some justification they can say they'll look at closure. Sabotaging the line by running chronic timetables which favour no-one is not the way to do it. How they've gotten away with it up to this point is beyond me.

    If on the other hand passenger numbers increase dramatically then IE will have no choice(in theory anyways!) but to continue service on the line and who knows,maybe it could see a resurgance of traffic and a brighter future for the south Wexford.

    Of course,this all involves common sense,something IE seem to lack. If they're allowed run roughshod over the south Wexford then i fear for the rest of the network in the coming years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    GM071class wrote: »
    This is what happens when businessmen run a railway in a low-density country, It's only considered in figures, not the sometimes all to vital links to local communities.....

    They aren't businessmen running the railways in this country. Whatever gave you that idea?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    They aren't businessmen running the railways in this country. Whatever gave you that idea?

    In all honesty, if businessmen ran most of our public transport routes they'd have closed most of them a long time ago; especially the rail services in Wexford so if anything thank Irish Rail for keeping it open this long;):p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    In all honesty, if businessmen ran most of our public transport routes they'd have closed most of them a long time ago; especially the rail services in Wexford so if anything thank Irish Rail for keeping it open this long;):p

    A rather simplistic view and out of context.

    Businessmen working under the same remit as the current IE management would do a better job. You are confusing the term businessmen with privatisation. Thats a different argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    A rather simplistic view and out of context.

    Businessmen working under the same remit as the current IE management would do a better job. You are confusing the term businessmen with privatisation. Thats a different argument.

    You will find that it isn't, even though it was somewhat tongue in cheek.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    You will find that it isn't, even though it was somewhat tongue in cheek.

    We won't find out until actual businessmen are put in charge of IE. Considering its semi state nature and subvention, its an easy ride for a management team with brains in their heads. Dick Fearn is a "railwayman". He told me that in 2006. One of the other managers he brought over with him, went back to the UK because he wasn't a "railwayman". He was a "businessman". When Dick Fearn stops organising railtours and schmoozing UK enthusiasts and charities and faces the hard realities, then he might just stand a chance. Personally I think he came for the pension.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    We won't find out until actual businessmen are put in charge of IE. Considering its semi state nature and subvention, its an easy ride for a management team with brains in their heads. Dick Fearn is a "railwayman". He told me that in 2006. One of the other managers he brought over with him, went back to the UK because he wasn't a "railwayman". He was a "businessman". When Dick Fearn stops organising railtours and schmoozing UK enthusiasts and charities and faces the hard realities, then he might just stand a chance. Personally I think he came for the pension.

    Yes, he left highly paid executive roles in private UK railways (that are run by "businessmen" given their privatised nature) and he moved to Ireland along with his family so he can organise a one off charity event here instead of the UK and a pension in 20 years time because you don't have pensions i the UK.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes: and :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    Yes, he left highly paid executive roles in private UK railways (that are run by "businessmen" given their privatised nature) and he moved to Ireland along with his family so he can organise a one off charity event here instead of the UK and a pension in 20 years time because you don't have pensions i the UK.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes: and :rolleyes:

    Less of the :rolleyes::rolleyes: and :rolleyes:.

    Are you saying that he came here for the challenge?

    The charity event wasn't a one off. He's organised at least one before.

    Dick Fearn is an ex BR dinosaur, like his buddy that runs the Railway Children Charity. He's here because the set up is like the old days in BR. He has offered absolutely nothing to the development of the rail network in this country. In fact in his first media interview, he went on about making it his job to have clean trains! He failed. The man is nothing more than a blast from the past. Ive met him, spoke to him and thats the conclusion Ive drawn. He put his feet under the desk in Amiens Street when the money was flowing and he'll be drawing the pension long before 20 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Less of the :rolleyes::rolleyes: and :rolleyes:.

    Are you saying that he came here for the challenge?

    The charity event wasn't a one off. He's organised at least one before.

    The two events were five years apart, hardly smacks of it being part of his personal agenda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    The two events were five years apart, hardly smacks of it being part of his personal agenda.

    I was correcting the "one off charity event" comment by another poster. I don't recall mentioning agendas, personal or otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Less of the :rolleyes::rolleyes: and :rolleyes:.

    :p
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Are you saying that he came here for the challenge?

    I don't know why he came here but if you feel he moved country along with his family for a pension on a fixed term contract then believe away :)
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    The charity event wasn't a one off. He's organised at least one before.

    One in 2005 and one in 2010; that's about one every 2,555 days. That gives us about 1,825 to save up for the next one :D
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Dick Fearn is an ex BR dinosaur, like his buddy that runs the Railway Children Charity. He's here because the set up is like the old days in BR.

    There are a great many people who consider BR to be a far better set up than private railways that replaced them, bad and all as they were. For the record, he worked in the private industry in the UK after BR's break up at management level.
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    He has offered absolutely nothing to the development of the rail network in this country. In fact in his first media interview, he went on about making it his job to have clean trains!

    Or he could have told the media about greasing axle boxes, interlocking and working timetables; which sound bite is the average hack going to use?
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    He put his feet under the desk in Amiens Street when the money was flowing and he'll be drawing the pension long before 20 years.

    Just for you....:rolleyes:;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Interesting question: just why is Dick Fearn here. Maybe deserving of it's own thread.

    His salary is €256,000. Add in his pension and bonus and his total package is worth €400,000.

    Personally I don't think he's doing a great job and I'd say he's here for the money mainly.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    He has offered absolutely nothing to the development of the rail network in this country.

    That is somewhat unfair.

    The introduction of clockface timetabling and the hourly Dublin/Cork service came from Mr. Fearn's instigation, as did the 22000 Class order.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭FlameoftheWest


    KC61 wrote: »
    That is somewhat unfair.

    The introduction of clockface timetabling and the hourly Dublin/Cork service came from Mr. Fearn's instigation, as did the 22000 Class order.

    The clockface timetables were in the Stategic Rail Review in 2003 before Dick Fearn even came to Ireland.

    Next question?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Dick FearnBeeching closed so many railways in the uk maybe Dick Fearn wants to be remembered for doing the same here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    The clockface timetables were in the Stategic Rail Review in 2003 before Dick Fearn even came to Ireland.

    Next question?

    In fact Joe Meagher discussed this with me on the Marion Finnucane show in April 2003, a few weeks before the SRR was published.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    KC61 wrote: »
    That is somewhat unfair.

    The introduction of clockface timetabling and the hourly Dublin/Cork service came from Mr. Fearn's instigation, as did the 22000 Class order.

    He instigated them, but didn't devise the idea. Instigating them is his job. Please demonstrate where he has had a uniquely positive contribution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Are you saying that he came here for the challenge?

    Nah. I think it was natural career progression. His last job was in Railtrack (remember them) and I suspect that he had been on the lookout for an even more disfunctional organisation for quite some time. :P


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  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    He instigated them, but didn't devise the idea. Instigating them is his job.

    Therefore he did his job, whats wrong with that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Don't forget the RPSI's 'Farewell to the South Wexford line' tour is on this Friday 7th May. :D

    GM loco and MkII's.

    Detailed timingss here on IRN: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1718/t/Re-RPSI-2010.html?page=-1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    That is a rather defeatist attitude from the RPSI.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    That is a rather defeatist attitude from the RPSI.

    "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]This train is now Sold Out, no further tickets are available."

    They should run another bye byesy gig so!
    [/FONT]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    That is a rather defeatist attitude from the RPSI.

    In fairness to the Nordies they are not marketing it as a farewell tour - that will be left to their brothers in the IRRS. :D


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