Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Irish language?

Options
1…1214161718

Comments

  • Options
    #392
    Richard Cranium
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭Richard Cranium


    PK2008 wrote: »
    Nobody cares, spending money, no relevance, forcing children etc etc

    What of the 64% of people who took part in the poll on this thread?

    Are they part of "we" as well?


  • Options
    #393
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    What of the 64% of people who took part in the poll on this thread?

    Are they part of "we" as well?

    Do you want to put up the correct quote and not your edited version.:rolleyes:

    Where I was pointing out that nobody is trying to stop anyone of using Irish in their own spare time- the point is that I, and the people who agree with me, object to mandatory Irish in schools and the money being spent on it.


  • Options
    #394
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    Semantics...
    You're tying yourself up in knots there. Do you even have a point to make or are you just trying to trip me up now.
    Just making my point...

    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    The scouts came around to me when I was in primary school trying to get me to join.
    When I started college, every single club and society tried to get me to sign on the dotted line.
    There are "endless ads" on this very website.
    Is this "forcing" me to do anything? No. It's not. It's getting me to consider doing something. I could do as they ask, or I could ignore them. That's free will.
    I was in the scouts as a young fellow. Some of the best memories of my life. I can't say the same thing about Irish.

    But wait are you really comparing a language to the scouts ? Surely any language worth it's salt does not have to go on recruiting campaigns.
    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    That's not sad at all tbh.
    Especially since you misspelled "Gaeilge".
    Dang... Still close enough.
    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    Yeah I spent ages playing rugby. I wasn't very good so it took me a long time to get anywhere. And yes, the state does force every leaving cert student to do PE. Not rugby all the time, but generally something that involves putting on a tracksuit or shorts and standing around in the cold.
    Maybe you should tell the state then. Because I don't do P.E.

    Richard Cranium wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I'll find a more easily accessible analogy to get a fairly basic point across next time.
    Don't worry we all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.


  • Options
    #395
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    1. Irish is one of two official languages of Ireland. The other is English.

    2. The constitution states that one language may be used exclusively for any official purpose.

    I'm aware of what the two official languages of this state are.

    Your question asked why it was neccessary to provide for Irish speakers. I have clearly outlined why. It is an official language, and thus requires that these speakers are catered for. This is not something unique to Ireland. 100's of states around the world have multiple official languages. Infact, it's quite uncommon to find a state that doesn't.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    3. As an Irish citizen of voting age and a taxpayer it is very much my business.

    No, it is not your business whether or not I choose to do my business through Irish. Being a voter or a payer of tax does not give you any right over what language I use. Moreover, You as a single person do not decide whether or not I have the right to do my business through Irish.

    However, if you want to attempt to change that - you can always try drum up support for an amendment to the constitution. But we both know that you'd fail, miserably and that the Irish public supports the language.


  • Options
    #396
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote:
    I'm aware of what the two official languages of this state are.

    Your question asked why it was neccessary to provide for Irish speakers. I have clearly outlined why. It is an official language, and thus requires that these speakers are catered for. This is not something unique to Ireland. 100's of states around the world have multiple official languages. Infact, it's quite uncommon to find a state that doesn't.
    2. The constitution states that one language may be used exclusively for any official purpose.


    Iwasfrozen wrote:
    No, it is not your business whether or not I choose to do my business through Irish. Being a voter or a payer of tax does not give you any right over what language I use. Moreover, You as a single person do not decide whether or not I have the right to do my business through Irish.

    However, if you want to attempt to change that - you can always try drum up support for an amendment to the constitution. But we both know that you'd fail, miserably and that the Irish public supports the language.
    As a single person I do not have the power to change the constitution. But I am not the only person who doesn't enjoy the amount of money being spent on this.

    I'll repeat what I said earlier: As an Irish citizen and tax payer it is very much my business.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #397
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    2. The constitution states that one language may be used exclusively for any official purpose.

    Wrong, it states "either" of the languages. I choose to use the Irish language.


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    As a single person I do not have the power to change the constitution.

    Right, well - until you do - shut up telling me what language to do my business in.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'll repeat what I said earlier: As an Irish citizen and tax payer it is very much my business.

    No, it isn't. The constitution protects my right to operate through the Irish language.


  • Options
    #398
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »

    However, if you want to attempt to change that - you can always try drum up support for an amendment to the constitution. But we both know that you'd fail, miserably and that the Irish public supports the language.

    Enda Kenny announced he wants to make Irish non-compulsory

    ......

    And FG are still going up in the polls.

    Let's not lose sight of the thread at hand here - that Irish shouldn't be compulsory for schools.


  • Options
    #399
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it isn't. The constitution protects my right to operate through the Irish language.

    Why shouldn't' the constitution protect my rights to operate through Klingon, French, Swahili, Polish, or in fact, any language of my choosing?


  • Options
    #400
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    Enda Kenny announced he wants to make Irish non-compulsory

    For the leaving cert. my argument wasn't about Irish being optional for the leaving cert. My argument was my right to use Irish language for my business.
    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    And FG are still going up in the polls.

    I'm sure FG are going up in the polls solely based on their Irish language policies. :) I've read their policies - I thought some of them were actually good.


  • Options
    #401
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    Why shouldn't' the constitution protect my rights to operate through Klingon, French, Swahili, Polish, or in fact, any language of my choosing?

    It's not an issue of if it should or not. It's an issue of what it does or does not protect. The constitution protects my rights to use the Irish language, and thus - I use it. Nobody has the right to tell me what language to use. And it's no concern of anybody what language I use until the constitution is amended otherwise.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #402
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    For the leaving cert. my argument wasn't about Irish being optional for the leaving cert. My argument was my right to use Irish language for my business.

    Right, but it negates the idea that Irish zealots will suddenly emerge in droves to fight it.


  • Options
    #403
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong, it states "either" of the languages. I choose to use the Irish language.
    Constitution of Ireland Article 8 wrote:
    3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.
    I'm pretty sure that "Provision may, however, be made by law..." means that only the state can choose. Seeing as one can't make laws and such.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Right, well - until you do - shut up telling me what language to do my business in.
    owww... well aren't we getting a little tired at 23:37.

    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it isn't. The constitution protects my right to operate through the Irish language.
    Actually it doesn't. It says the government can change that whenever it wants.


  • Options
    #404
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    Right, but it negates the idea that Irish zealots will suddenly emerge in droves to fight it.

    To fight what - compulsory Irish, or my right to use the Irish language?


  • Options
    #405
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's not an issue of if it should or not. It's an issue of what it does or does not protect. The constitution protects my rights to use the Irish language, and thus - I use it. Nobody has the right to tell me what language to use. And it's no concern of anybody what language I use until the constitution is amended otherwise.

    The constitution shouldn't be taken as this infallible thing, bar in civil matters where it must be upheld.

    The constitution is creating a double standard. You can use X and Y for official business, but you cannot use Z for official business, even if more people are speakers of Z.


  • Options
    #406
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    To fight what - compulsory Irish, or my right to use the Irish language?

    Lol, it isn't challenging your right to use the Irish language, just your right to throw money into a hole so the government will provide you a document in Irish that you could easily read in English.


  • Options
    #407
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that "Provision may, however, be made by law..." means that only the state can choose. Seeing as one can't make laws and such.

    And the state affords me the right to use Irish at present.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    owww... well aren't we getting a little tired at 23:37.

    Nope. I've in a good humour, and have a few beers. Just have a limited amount of patience for your consistent attempts to dictate what language I have the right to use.


  • Options
    #408
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    Lol, it isn't challenging your right to use the Irish language, just your right to throw money into a hole so the government will provide you a document in Irish that you could easily read in English.

    It is challenging my right to use the Irish language if equal opportunities do not exist for me to use it. Let me ask you - Do you think our situation is unique to Ireland?


  • Options
    #409
    I.Am.A.Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭I.Am.A.Panda


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It is challenging my right to use the Irish language if equal opportunities do not exist for me to use it. Let me ask you - Do you think our situation is unique to Ireland?

    Of course not - But let's count the amount of unique Irish users, that is to say Irish users who are not fluent in English. I'm willing to bet it reduces the numbers down significantly to a few thousand. And until the Irish government extends the same privileges to all languages with the same number of monolingual, non-english speakers, it is blatant discrimination against equal opportunities.


  • Options
    #410
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »
    Of course not - But let's count the amount of unique Irish users, that is to say Irish users who are not fluent in English. I'm willing to bet it reduces the numbers down significantly to a few thousand. And until the Irish government extends the same privileges to all languages with the same number of monolingual, non-english speakers, it is blatant discrimination against equal opportunities.

    It's not discrimination. All those who come to stay in a state, are or should be aware of the constitution and laws of that said state when they come. The Irish language has been a part of this nation for over a thousand years.

    States across the world have multiple official languages without resentment. It's not a matter of being able to read English or not. It's a matter of being afforded the right to choose. When you force Irish speakers to use English - you are taking their right to use Irish away, and reducing the language to no status.


  • Options
    #411
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's not discrimination. All those who come to stay in a state, are or should be aware of the constitution and laws of that said state when they come. The Irish language has been a part of this nation for over a thousand years.
    And what of the right of those who do not want to learn Irish ? Why must we be forced to spend countless hours through fourteen years in school because a minority (yes a minority) of Irish speakers want to keep alive their dead/useless language by force if necessary.

    Surely any language worth its salt does not need to be kept in intensive care like this ? Or will you admit that if the government did take away Irish's mandatory status the language would wither away and die ?

    But then if it would die that easily then the Irish people have proven that they do not need nor want this language. Get my drift ?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    States across the world have multiple official languages without resentment. It's not a matter of being able to read English or not. It's a matter of being afforded the right to choose. When you force Irish speakers to use English - you are taking their right to use Irish away, and reducing the language to no status.
    Those states where not part of the British empire for many hundreds of years. The cross of their patron saint is not on the Union Jack and their elected politicians did not sit in Westminster palace.

    The simple truth is Irish has been dead for many hundreds of years. There was a campaign to try and restore it in the early 20th century led by that fool De Valera and fueled by reverent patriotism. But that movement inevitably failed. As will any other attempt to revive the language.

    So now that we know the language will not survive why must we waste millions of euros in taxes during a recession to keep the blasted thing alive ?

    I can say hand on heart that Irish will be dead in one hundred years Wether we give it non-mandatory status or not. We might as well save ourselves a few bob in the meantime.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #412
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And what of the right of those who do not want to learn Irish ? Why must we be forced to spend countless hours through fourteen years in school because a minority (yes a minority) of Irish speakers want to keep alive their dead/useless language by force if necessary.

    The poll here suggests that the majority of people want to keep
    the Irish language.

    Based on your logic,one could equally argue that the majority of students are forced to learn Maths - because some of those students don't like Maths, or because Maths (as opposed to arithmetic) will not be useful to them in their chosen career. I don't think that would improve our system of Education.

    The fact is that the range of subjects taught to leaving cert. is to provide as much opportunity as possible for people to select their specialist subjects - just because some of those people don't want to learn a particular subject doesn't mean others should be prevented from having the opportunity to do so.

    Noreen


  • Options
    #413
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And what of the right of those who do not want to learn Irish ?

    They are in the exact same position as those who do not want to learn English.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Why must we be forced to spend countless hours through fourteen years in school because a minority (yes a minority) of Irish speakers want to keep alive their dead/useless language by force if necessary.

    I think you'll find that the majority of Irish people want to keep the language alive. You are no more forced to learn Irish, than you are maths of english. It is a compulsory part of your education.

    Moreover, the language is not dead. You're being purposefully ignorant. A dead language is a language that has no native speakers.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Surely any language worth its salt does not need to be kept in intensive care like this ?

    Any language that is endangered requires some element of support to ensure it's survival. It might serve you well to read Joshua Fishman's book on reversing language shift to see why it is important to nurture and support endangered languages. But if you want to continue asking ignorant questions, without truly wanting to know the answer - you can waste someone else's time.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Or will you admit that if the government did take away Irish's mandatory status the language would wither away and die ?

    If the English language did not have support from the Government, it would suffer serious setbacks also.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But then if it would die that easily then the Irish people have proven that they do not need nor want this language. Get my drift ?

    No, I don't get your drift. Your ignorance has no bounds. You seem to be under the impression that a language can survive without the citizens of the said state being offered the opportunity to learn the language. If support for Irish was removed tomorrow - it would result in the following.
    • No immediate access to education. Where do the citizens learn the language?
    • No support for Gaelscoilenna. How does the language expand?
    • No access to documents through Irish. Unequal status for the language, forcing people to use English over Irish.

    You come across as someone who has never debated any of the above points before. I encourage you to read Joshua Fishman's book. Even if you dislike Irish, it will give you an understanding into the important of state support for the survival of any language.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The simple truth is Irish has been dead for many hundreds of years.

    No, that is not the simple truth. You seem to have a severe problem in understanding what a dead language actually is. It was spoken by the majority of people in Ireland up until circa 1820. So if you were attempting to say that it has been a minority language for many hundreds of years - that would be also inaccurate.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There was a campaign to try and restore it in the early 20th century led by that fool De Valera and fueled by reverent patriotism. But that movement inevitably failed. As will any other attempt to revive the language.

    Thanks Mystic Meg.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So now that we know the language will not survive why must we waste millions of euros in taxes during a recession to keep the blasted thing alive ?

    Who is this "we"? The statistics show an increased number of Irish speakers on the last census. If anything - the language is becoming stronger. As someone who runs an Irish conversational group, I've noticed it myself.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I can say hand on heart that Irish will be dead in one hundred years Wether we give it non-mandatory status or not. We might as well save ourselves a few bob in the meantime.

    You could say it if you were qualified to do so. But you're not. And you have no statistics to back up anything you say. You're creating arguments for your own benefit, that really lack any substance whatsoever.

    So in the nature of good debate - Show me the statistics that have allowed you to come to the conclusion that Irish will be dead in 100 years. I'll be more than happy to show you the increased numbers of Gaelscoileanna opening across the state, and the increased number of Irish speakers as each census is taken.

    But I suppose, that's no match for the mighty Iwasfozen's Mystic Meg like intuition.


  • Options
    #414
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    The poll here suggests that the majority of people want to keep
    the Irish language.

    Based on your logic,one could equally argue that the majority of students are forced to learn Maths - because some of those students don't like Maths, or because Maths (as opposed to arithmetic) will not be useful to them in their chosen career. I don't think that would improve our system of Education.

    The fact is that the range of subjects taught to leaving cert. is to provide as much opportunity as possible for people to select their specialist subjects - just because some of those people don't want to learn a particular subject doesn't mean others should be prevented from having the opportunity to do so.

    Noreen

    No thats not the point , the point is to make it an optional language course like French and German, where the students can choose whether or not they want to do it.

    Maths just is not comparable as there are so many jobs, universitys and careers which require a certain levle of maths that if we didnt teach it we would severly disadvantage the student. The same cannot be said of Irish


  • Options
    #415
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    PK2008 wrote: »
    No thats not the point , the point is to make it an optional language course like French and German, where the students can choose whether or not they want to do it.

    Maths just is not comparable as there are so many jobs, universitys and careers which require a certain levle of maths that if we didnt teach it we would severly disadvantage the student. The same cannot be said of Irish

    Apologies, I may not have made myself clear. A certain level of Maths is required, certainly, which was what I was attempting to acknowledge when I differenciated between Maths and what used to be known as arithmetic.
    I think you'll find that the entry requirement for most Universities is a least a Grade D in Maths, English, Irish, and a foreign language - which makes a foreign language being optional a bit questionable, don't you think?
    To suggest that someone who wants to specialise in History, for example, needs a foreign language is just not logical. Yet, for anyone who wants to go on to third level education, a foreign language may be optional for leaving cert., but it's mandatory for third level education........ = Not all that optional, really.

    Noreen


  • Options
    #416
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Apologies, I may not have made myself clear. A certain level of Maths is required, certainly, which was what I was attempting to acknowledge when I differenciated between Maths and what used to be known as arithmetic.
    I think you'll find that the entry requirement for most Universities is a least a Grade D in Maths, English, Irish, and a foreign language - which makes a foreign language being optional a bit questionable, don't you think?
    To suggest that someone who wants to specialise in History, for example, needs a foreign language is just not logical. Yet, for anyone who wants to go on to third level education, a foreign language may be optional for leaving cert., but it's mandatory for third level education........ = Not all that optional, really.

    Noreen

    Again you missed the point; a foreign language is required, a foreign language of the persons choice. My point is that Irish should be among the choices as it is not required for the vast majority of disciplines. A foreign language in todays globalised world is a must, most college graduates will go to work in multi national organisations so it makes sense.

    and no offense or anything but only the lower point university courses would accept a Grade D in maths and pretty much no graduate programme.


  • Options
    #417
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    PK2008 wrote: »
    A foreign language in todays globalised world is a must

    No, it's not. It may be beneficial in certain scenarios - but it is not a must.


  • Options
    #418
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, it's not. It may be beneficial in certain scenarios - but it is not a must.

    I think you'll find most global organisations look very favourably on people who have a second, relevant language. Now technically you can live on the social welfare for the rest of your life so maybe nothing is a 'must' for you but some of us aspire to a bit more


  • Options
    #419
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    PK2008 wrote: »
    I think you'll find most global organisations look very favourably on people who have a second, relevant language. Now technically you can live on the social welfare for the rest of your life so maybe nothing is a 'must' but some of us aspire to a bit more

    I'm sorry, but you're grossly over-estimating the importance of having a second language. A second language is only important in a scenario where it may be required. This is not the case in most jobs.

    To say that I do not aspire for a bit more because I don't have a third language under my belt is utterly ridiculous. I'm starting a masters degree this september, in a field that will not require another language from me - unless I live in a country of those said languages.


  • Options
    #420
    PK2008
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you're grossly over-estimating the importance of having a second language. A second language is only important in a scenario where it may be required. This is not the case in most jobs.

    To say that I do not aspire for a bit more because I don't have a third language under my belt is utterly ridiculous. I'm starting a masters degree this september, in a field that will not require another language from me - unless I live in a country of those said languages.

    Well that just means theres even less point in learning Irish, if you dont think a working, relevant language is of any use


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #421
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    PK2008 wrote: »
    Well that just means theres even less point in learning Irish, if you dont think a working, relevant language is of any use

    No - I'm learning Irish, because I enjoy doing so. I like to be able to speak the indigenous language of this island, and feel proud at being able to do so. You cannot place a price on the journey of learning a language. I'm sure you don't attempt to quantify feelings such as happiness in other scenarios - like, when your daughter gets married - or when your son graduates from college. So why attempt to do so with the feelings that being able to speak your own language gives you?


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement