Irish language?

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 08:36PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

There are people you know that grow up in areas that have Irish as there first community language, these are native speakers

Very few.

As i pointed out earlier in this very thread. There are more speakers of "Awngi" then Irish speakers.

Just in case you didn't know the Awi people live in central Gojjam in northwestern Ethiopia.

Crosáidí wrote: »

Dutch people can speak English, does this not make them native Dutch speakers

Actually it does. Dutch people speak Dutch as their native language.

I.Am.A.Panda · 31-03-2010 08:55PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually it does. Dutch people speak Dutch as their native language.

This is the problem with Irish, the name association

The Dutch speak Dutch.
The Germans speak the German.
The French speak French.

But it's seems almost an insult to nationalists the Irish speak English, when Australians, Americans, Canadians speak English, Mexicans and Cuban speka Spanish, and Brazilians speak Portuguese. Their argument is that since these countries speak their respective languages, why don't we? While at the same time heading to an anti-EU rally

.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 09:04PM

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

This is the problem with Irish, the name association

The Dutch speak Dutch.
The Germans speak the German.
The French speak French.

But it's seems almost an insult to nationalists the Irish speak English, when Australians, Americans, Canadians speak English, Mexicans and Cuban speka Spanish, and Brazilians speak Portuguese. Their argument is that since these countries speak their respective languages, why don't we? While at the same time heading to an anti-EU rally .

The obvious reason is because we where invaded by Britain.

Thus we speak English.

I'll never understand Irish language enthusiasts. Why would one while away countless hours of their lives learning something that is utterly useless and will be dead within one hundred years ? Why wouldn't you spend that time learning a useful language such as French, German, Japanese etc. ?

I.Am.A.Panda · 31-03-2010 09:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The obvious reason is because we where invaded by Britain.

Thus we speak English.

I'll never understand Irish language enthusiasts. Why would one while away countless hours of their lives learning something that is utterly useless and will be dead within one hundred years ? Why wouldn't you spend that time learning a useful language such as French, German, Japanese etc. ?

I don't know, some sense of heritage and patriotism to one aspect of a broad culture. Enda Kenny though promised he would make it optional, which I applaud, but I fear the government could collapse over it, something which I find absolutely ridiculous. I also applaud colleges such as Trinity and DCU which require you to know a language.

dlofnep · 31-03-2010 09:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'll never understand Irish language enthusiasts.

Did you ever try to?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would one while away countless hours of their lives learning something that is utterly useless

Maybe to give it more use, and make it relevant once again. I find use in it. I use it every day. It's not useless to me - so learning it has it's use for me. It may not for you.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

and will be dead within one hundred years ?

Based on what evidence?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why wouldn't you spend that time learning a useful language such as French, German, Japanese etc. ?

I've no intentions of ever visiting any of those countries. Therefore, I've no need to learn them. They are all useless to me.

I do however plan on learning Spanish at some point, but since I'm in no quick hurry to go to spain - it can take a back seat for now.

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 09:25PM

+1

The obvious answer to the (all too common) question "When are you ever going to use Irish?" is of course:

"Whenever I bloody well want to!"

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 09:36PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

+1

The obvious answer to the (all too common) question "When are you ever going to use Irish?" is of course:

"Whenever I bloody well want to!"

Not really though, what if you had to give a presentation in work, or went to a restaurant or a barbers or any other place where the other Irish people didnt speak Irish??

Face facts, if you started speaking Irish to people you didnt know already spoke Irish alot people would just be like WTF? and you would revert to English no matter how 'bloody well you wanted to speak Irish'

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 09:40PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Not really though, what if you had to give a presentation in work, or went to a restaurant or a barbers or any other place where the other Irish people didnt speak Irish??

Face facts, if you started speaking Irish to people you didnt know already spoke Irish alot people would just be like WTF? and you would revert to English no matter how 'bloody well you wanted to speak Irish'

I am facing facts. If I have an important presentation to give, I would rather like it if everybody understood what I was saying. Hence I wouldn't speak Irish because I wouldn't want to.

Gaeilgeoirí have common sense too, you know.

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 09:43PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

I am facing facts. If I have an important presentation to give, I would rather like it if everybody understood what I was saying. Hence I wouldn't speak Irish because I wouldn't want to.

Gaeilgeoirí have common sense too, you know.

So maybe it should be

'Whenever I bloody want to....... and when its appropriate for others,........ in fact probably only when Im with people who I know speak Irish as well'?

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 09:51PM

PK2008 wrote: »

So maybe it should be

'Whenever I bloody want to....... and when its appropriate for others,........ in fact probably only when Im with people who I know speak Irish as well'?

Well I wouldn't want to insist on having a full blown conversation as Gaeilge with someone who can't say their name in Irish, because that would be highly ignorant and insulting of me, but at the same time I'm not afraid to speak Irish. The fear that someone might take offence to hearing our official language (and it is, whether you like it or not) in use won't stop me from testing the waters, so to speak, and working from there. There are plenty of people who enjoy informal conversations in Irish, but you would never know unless somebody takes the first step. That is, unless somebody decides to start speaking Irish, because they feel like speaking Irish.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 09:52PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Did you ever try to?

Countless times.

dlofnep wrote: »

Maybe to give it more use, and make it relevant once again. I find use in it. I use it every day. It's not useless to me - so learning it has it's use for me. It may not for you.

Language is a two way street tough, in order to communicate with a person both people must speak the same language.

According to wikipedia Irish has only 350,000 native speakers. This is out of a total 6,000,000 people on this fair isle.

That means the percentage of Irish speakers relative to the total population of Ireland is (350/6,000)*(100) or 5.8% of people in the country.

How can you honestly say spending countless hours to speak to 5.8% of the populace is worth your while ?

dlofnep wrote: »

Based on what evidence?

My own.

dlofnep wrote: »

I've no intentions of ever visiting any of those countries. Therefore, I've no need to learn them. They are all useless to me.

I do however plan on learning Spanish at some point, but since I'm in no quick hurry to go to spain - it can take a back seat for now.

What has visiting a country got to do with knowing the language ?

People learn a language for two reasons: 1) Recreational 2) Employment.

Since Irish has no Employment use save for useless teacher or even more useless European translator of documents no-one will ever read and you mentioned you are in college I'm going to go out on a limb and say your employment is not linked to your ability to speak Irish.

That means that you must have learnt it for recreational purposes. As this is the case I would imagine that you spend quite alot of time in Irish-speaking areas in the North/west of Ireland ? Rainy Donegal is not really a great recreational destination.

Now imagine what learning another language would do for you. It would open up employment in a large TNC that trades between the country that speaks the same language as you. It would allow you to work as a translator in an airport or even help leaving cert students with grinds.

If you weight up the pros and cons of learning Irish compared to a major world language you will soon see the pros of other languages out do those of Irish.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 09:55PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

Well I wouldn't want to insist on having a full blown conversation as Gaeilge with someone who can't say their name in Irish, because that would be highly ignorant and insulting of me, but at the same time I'm not afraid to speak Irish. The fear that someone might take offence to hearing our official language (and it is, whether you like it or not) in use won't stop me from testing the waters, so to speak, and working from there. There are plenty of people who enjoy informal conversations in Irish, but you would never know unless somebody takes the first step. That is, unless somebody decides to start speaking Irish, because they feel like speaking Irish.

Actually Ireland has two offical languages.

Constitution of Ireland Article 8 wrote:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 10:00PM

Go onto any jobs website and you'll see numerous jobs looking for French, German, Italian, etc etc language skills

I doubt you'll find as many looking for Irish skills

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 10:10PM

The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

Yes, I know. This is exactly why I said that the Irish language is our official language. Because, as you have just shown, it says so in the constitution. If you want to be pedantic I could clarify and say that it is one of our two official languages, but that wouldn't achieve anything really. Nor would it negate the point I made.

Also I don't see why you are so negative towards people speaking Irish as a hobby. Is it any less unusual or any more a waste of time than doing crosswords or sudoku?

And the fact that according to Wikipedia, hardly a trustworthy source of data at the best of times, about 5.8% of the population speak Irish. So what? Have you got four million close friends that you speak to on a regular basis?!
I played rugby for 8 years, and in all that time, I played with and against a lot less than 350,000 people. That doesn't mean that I was wasting my time playing rugby because more people play hurling or football. Small numbers don't prove or disprove anything. It only takes two people to have a conversation after all.

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 10:15PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Go onto any jobs website and you'll see numerous jobs looking for French, German, Italian, etc etc language skills

I doubt you'll find as many looking for Irish skills

You won't find many people looking for proficiency in Call of Duty on the playstation or the ability to play the guitar either. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't spend time (and effort) on those two things, or that they should pack in their pastimes because regardless of how much satifaction they get out of them, it just won't get them that bigger wage packet.

I.Am.A.Panda · 31-03-2010 10:24PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

You won't find many people looking for proficiency in Call of Duty on the playstation or the ability to play the guitar either. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't spend time (and effort) on those two things, or that they should pack in their pastimes because regardless of how much satifaction they get out of them, it just won't get them that bigger wage packet.

Whirl I agree, the government shouldn't mandate these be made official past times of Ireland and become part of the curriculum.

dlofnep · 31-03-2010 10:26PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How can you honestly say spending countless hours to speak to 5.8% of the populace is worth your while ?

Yes, it's worth it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My own.

How convenient for you.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What has visiting a country got to do with knowing the language ?

It has everything to do with it. If you're not going to spend time or live in a country that has french or german has it's primary language - there isn't much justification for learning it. Unless you're learning it for recreational purposes - in which case, more power to you. Learning a language is a beautiful journey.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Since Irish has no Employment use save for useless teacher or even more useless European translator of documents no-one will ever read and you mentioned you are in college I'm going to go out on a limb and say your employment is not linked to your ability to speak Irish.

There are opportunities across a wide range of sectors for employment. Not just schools, but TV production, radio, software & web development. Because it can be a niche market, it means that you will have a leg up on someone else when a job presents itself that requires Gaeilge.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That means that you must have learnt it for recreational purposes. As this is the case I would imagine that you spend quite alot of time in Irish-speaking areas in the North/west of Ireland ? Rainy Donegal is not really a great recreational destination.

Not really - we've a gaeltacht here in Waterford. I don't need to travel far. I find the Gaeltachtaí to be amongst the most beautiful places in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Now imagine what learning another language would do for you. It would open up employment in a large TNC that trades between the country that speaks the same language as you. It would allow you to work as a translator in an airport or even help leaving cert students with grinds.

Work as a translator? Sure, weren't you just knocking those who work as Irish language translators? You're not very consistent with your argument. I'm aware of the opportunities that learning another language would present to me. But in the sector I will be qualified in - the largest market is in the US where English is the official language, so I really have no need to learn another language.

If i had intended on moving to France or Germany, I would learn those languages in a heartbeat.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you weight up the pros and cons of learning Irish compared to a major world language you will soon see the pros of other languages out do those of Irish.

Not for me. You can't put a price on how rewarding it feels to be able to speak your own language. And since I will never require another language, Irish is much more beneficial to me.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 10:28PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

Yes, I know. This is exactly why I said that the Irish language is our official language. Because, as you have just shown, it says so in the constitution. If you want to be pedantic I could clarify and say that it is one of our two official languages, but that wouldn't achieve anything really. Nor would it negate the point I made.

You would be correct if when you say it wouldn't achieve anything where you talking about any other language then English. But you said in you post:

Richard Cranium wrote:

The fear that someone might take offence to hearing our official language (and it is, whether you like it or not) in use won't stop me from testing the waters

Here you are saying that English speaking people should not take offence to you speaking Irish because whether we like it or not Irish is our official language. English is however also our official language and on equal pairing with Irish.

Therefore we have a right to be annoyed at you speaking Irish to us. When we obviously don't.

Richard Cranium wrote:

Also I don't see why you are so negative towards people speaking Irish as a hobby. Is it any less unusual or any more a waste of time than doing crosswords or sudoku?

I have no problem with people speaking Irish as a hobby, each to their own.

My problem arises when Irish speakers try to force myself or my future children to speak Irish in the Leaving Cert or put endless ads on the television about "Seachtain na Gaelige" every year.

Why must Irish speakers try to force their "hobby" onto the rest of us ?

P.S You know what the sad thing is ? I didn't google the word "Seachtain na Gaelige" I had just seen it on the television and around the school so much that the correct spelling just sunk in.

Richard Cranium wrote:

And the fact that according to Wikipedia, hardly a trustworthy source of data at the best of times, about 5.8% of the population speak Irish. So what? Have you got four million close friends that you speak to on a regular basis?!

My point about the number of speakers as to add perspective to Irish as a useful language. As with all this fake patriotism it is easy to get carried away.

Richard Cranium wrote:

I played rugby for 8 years, and in all that time, I played with and against a lot less than 350,000 people. That doesn't mean that I was wasting my time playing rugby because more people play hurling or football. Small numbers don't prove or disprove anything. It only takes two people to have a conversation after all.

But did you spend countless hours learning rugby ? And does the state force every leaving cert student in the country to play rugby ?

Your comparision of a popular sport to a dead/useless language just doesn't add up.

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 10:28PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

You won't find many people looking for proficiency in Call of Duty on the playstation or the ability to play the guitar either. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't spend time (and effort) on those two things, or that they should pack in their pastimes because regardless of how much satifaction they get out of them, it just won't get them that bigger wage packet.

Couldnt agree with you more, thats all Irish is; a pastime, just like Call of Duty or Playstation

Its not a real language

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 10:30PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Couldnt agree with you more, thats all Irish is; a pastime, just like Call of Duty or Playstation

Its not a real language

I love this guy !!

Will you marry me ?

dlofnep · 31-03-2010 10:30PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Its not a real language

So, Irish is a fake language then is it? Well holy feck. Here's me thinking it was a real language, that has evolved over the course of over 1000 years.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 10:30PM

dlofnep wrote: »

So, Irish is a fake language then is it? Well holy God. Here's me thinking it was a real language, that has evolved over the course of over 1000 years.

FYP.

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 10:34PM

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

Whirl I agree, the government shouldn't mandate these be made official past times of Ireland and become part of the curriculum.

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think Irish should be mandatory for the Leaving Cert. The course should at least be changed hugely if it's to continue to be compulsory.
As for Irish in the civil service, that's more complicated. In an ideal world we shouldn't pay for something that isn't being used. At the same time though, it is necessary to provide for the people who do want to do their business through Irish at the moment. But in any case, there are worse things that time and money have been spent on.

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 10:38PM

Richard Cranium wrote: »

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think Irish should be mandatory for the Leaving Cert. The course should at least be changed hugely if it's to continue to be compulsory.
As for Irish in the civil service, that's more complicated. In an ideal world we shouldn't pay for something that isn't being used. At the same time though, it is necessary to provide for the people who do want to do their business through Irish at the moment. But in any case, there are worse things that time and money have been spent on.

Why is it necessary to provide for these people ?

dlofnep · 31-03-2010 10:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

My problem arises when Irish speakers try to force myself or my future children to speak Irish in the Leaving Cert or put endless ads on the television about "Seachtain na Gaelige" every year.

Heaven forbid they promote the state language once a year.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why must Irish speakers try to force their "hobby" onto the rest of us ?

They don't. The Government made it compulsory. Irish speakers don't force anyone to do anything.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Your comparision of a popular sport to a dead/useless language just doesn't add up.

Irish is not a dead language, nor is it a useless language. You're going to have to find new adjectives if you want to be taken seriously. You've routinely used those words with intent of agitating Irish language enthusiasts. I suggest you look up the definition of "Dead language" before you continue to label it as such.

dlofnep · 31-03-2010 10:45PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is it necessary to provide for these people ?

Because Irish is the official language of Ireland, and as such - people have the right to use it if they so choose to do so. If i want to do my business through Irish, then that's no concern of yours.

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 10:49PM

dlofnep wrote: »

So, Irish is a fake language then is it? Well holy feck. Here's me thinking it was a real language, that has evolved over the course of over 1000 years.

Evolved and dissolved

Richard Cranium · 31-03-2010 10:50PM

Therefore we have a right to be annoyed at you speaking Irish to us. When we obviously don't.

Semantics...
You're tying yourself up in knots there. Do you even have a point to make or are you just trying to trip me up now.

My problem arises when Irish speakers try to force myself or my future children to speak Irish in the Leaving Cert or put endless ads on the television about "Seachtain na Gaelige" every year.

The scouts came around to me when I was in primary school trying to get me to join.
When I started college, every single club and society tried to get me to sign on the dotted line.
There are "endless ads" on this very website.
Is this "forcing" me to do anything? No. It's not. It's getting me to consider doing something. I could do as they ask, or I could ignore them. That's free will.

P.S You know what the sad thing is ? I didn't google the word "Seachtain na Gaelige" I had just seen it on the television and around the school so much that the correct spelling just sunk in.

That's not sad at all tbh.
Especially since you misspelled "Gaeilge".

As with all this fake patriotism it is easy to get carried away.

WTF???

But did you spend countless hours learning rugby? And does the state force every leaving cert student in the country to play rugby ?

Yeah I spent ages playing rugby. I wasn't very good so it took me a long time to get anywhere. And yes, the state does force every leaving cert student to do PE. Not rugby all the time, but generally something that involves putting on a tracksuit or shorts and standing around in the cold.

Your comparision of a popular sport to a dead/useless language just doesn't add up.

I'm sorry, I'll find a more easily accessible analogy to get a fairly basic point across next time.

PK2008 · 31-03-2010 10:51PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Because Irish is the official language of Ireland, and as such - people have the right to use it if they so choose to do so. If i want to do my business through Irish, then that's no concern of yours.

Nobody cares what, when or how you use Irish. You can speak Klingon for all I care

The issue is we dont believe our government should be spending money on it or forcing children to learn it as it has no relevance or practical use in the modern world

Iwasfrozen · 31-03-2010 10:51PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Because Irish is the official language of Ireland, and as such - people have the right to use it if they so choose to do so. If i want to do my business through Irish, then that's no concern of yours.

1. Irish is one of two official languages of Ireland. The other is English.

2. The constitution states that one language may be used exclusively for any official purpose.

3. As an Irish citizen of voting age and a taxpayer it is very much my business.

Constitution of Ireland: Article 8 wrote:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

Perhaps we could reel that attitude in a little bit in future ?

Irish language?

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