Irish language?

Dionysus

PK2008 wrote: »

Useless language, the sooner it dies out the better.

What an ignorant and backward thing to say.

fontanalis

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

Lol @ all the Modern Devs saying "It's our national identity!!!!!!"

Firstly, a lot of things make up our national identity, including:

- Alcoholism
- Irish dancing
- Fighting
- Smoking
- Leprechauns
- St.Patricks Day

Now, should the government fund programmes to nurture those? Of course not. People are picking out an aspect of "our" culture (By the way I disagree with the idea of the people as one entity) and saying it should be preserved, ignoring the other parts.

The idea people who speak Irish get a 10% mark bonus in state exams, get an automatic high mark in a compulsory subject versus the multitude who struggle with it, and get a general advanced start in society is BS to me. Seriously, the government made huge cuts the other departments, but the Ghaeltacht affairs, received an increase in the region of €2.5 million.

Seriously, every argument for Irish starts with "I'm an Irish speaker" or "I love Irish". This is basing the argument on personal opinion, rather than the facts. The facts are that the majority of students hate taking Irish, most people can't handle an Irish conversation after 13 years of forced education, English is a huge benefit to Ireland, and that basically, Irish is on the road to being dead, a road that no amount of government tampering can stop.

Leprechauns, Irish identity? Who, what, why, when where?

InTheTrees

Its tragic to see a language fade and its sad but I dont see what can be done. The world is getting smaller and english is taking over even far more widely used languages. How can irish ever survive against that kind of pressure?

But having said that we cant just give up can we?

Noreen1

It seems to me that there have been some very valid points made on both sides of the argument.

One post that stuck in my mind from another thread was the fact that someone who desperately wanted to be a primary teacher couldn't do so because she failed Irish. IMHO, that's very wrong.

I said at the time, and it remains my opinion, that there is no earthly reason why one or two teachers cannot teach Irish to all the different classes at primary school. It needn't cost anything extra, since the teachers involved could simply swop over at the relevant times, say, about one hour, twice a week. Two qualified Irish teachers, with their own classes, would have 3 other classes to teach, equalling a three hour swop-over, twice a week. Not impossible, by any means, with the advantage that potentially good teachers wouldn't be lost, and children wouldn't be exposed to teachers who disliked or weren't competent in the language.

Add a complete revamp of the way the language is taught, using modern methods and we could have a revival of the language - without costing a penny. I appreciate that this will not satisfy people who consider it a dead or useless language, but these seem to be in the minority, so it seems to be the solution that would satisfy most people.

While we're at it, how about a halfway logical change to the entry requirements for University courses? There is no requirement, in many cases, after entry to a chosen course, for one or more of the subjects Maths, Irish, or a foreign language? In the vast majority of cases, there is certainly no need for either Irish or English literature - so where's the logic in making this an entry requirement? There's no reason why competence in English/Irish/arithmetic couldn't be assessed separately.

The experts who decide our syllabus set out a broad range of subjects for leaving cetificate. Now, whereas I don't always like what they decide, what I decide is not necessarily good for another persons child - so if that's what's required for a broad educational base, so be it! Now making 4 subjects that may never be used again an entry requirement to get in the front door of a college, (English, Irish, Maths, Foreign language) no matter what the chosen course, is not the most intelligent way to choose the best candidates......

There..... I've just fixed the entire educational system LOL

Noreen

Krusader

Noreen1 wrote: »

I said at the time, and it remains my opinion, that there is no earthly reason why one or two teachers cannot teach Irish to all the different classes at primary school.

Noreen

Some schools are too big for this idea to work, my primary school had over 750 students and about 25 classes. we weren't even allowed to run around at break time 'cause there was too many kids in one spot, they didn't want an accident

lugha

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its tragic to see a language fade and its sad but I dont see what can be done. The world is getting smaller and english is taking over even far more widely used languages. How can irish ever survive against that kind of pressure?

But having said that we cant just give up can we?

Here's an idea. Instead of spending millions having EU and other documents translated into Irish (which nobody will read!), use the money to sponsor a few free spoken Irish classes here and there. Far more productive and will generate nothing like the same negative animosity.

unreggd

lugha wrote: »

Here's an idea. Instead of spending millions having EU and other documents translated into Irish (which nobody will read!), use the money to sponsor a few free spoken Irish classes here and there. Far more productive and will generate nothing like the same negative animosity.

I agree, but classes wouldnt be necessary if it was taught properly in school in the first place

Irish is one of the hardest languages to learn, so that's why this emphasis on grammar doesnt work

and the lack of proper grammar in English is a cause too

It was my Irish teacher, in 5th year, who had to teach people in english what a verb noun and adjective etc was

Noreen1

Crosáidí wrote: »

Some schools are too big for this idea to work, my primary school had over 750 students and about 25 classes. we weren't even allowed to run around at break time 'cause there was too many kids in one spot, they didn't want an accident

I think overcrowding is a big problem in a lot of primary schools at the moment.
The solution for the bigger schols would be to have the Irish teacher move to the childrens class, rather that having crowds of children wandering around overcrowded areas. Health and safety regulations are pretty stringent regarding movement of pupils, in any case.

I would have thought that the smaller schools, with fewer teachers would have had the greater problem, because fewer teachers would leave less opportunity to re-arrange the timetable.

I would have anticipated that the difficulty would be with the two and three teacher schools, where each teacher would have three or four classes each. I could forsee problems there to a far greater extent than in the larger schools. I can't see that it's impossible, though. In any case, current trends seem to indicate that the Dept. of Education plans to amalgamate these schools in the longer term, anyway. Whether or not the pupils and parents involved approve is an entirely different debate.

The question is whether there is a will to improve Irish education within the Dept. of Education, to give every student the opportunity to reach their full potential - and I'm not at all sure that there is!:(
The ridiculous entry requirement for many of our Universities is more than enough proof of that.

Noreen

I.Am.A.Panda

fontanalis wrote: »

Leprechauns, Irish identity? Who, what, why, when where?

http://skynews.com.au/offbeat/article.aspx?id=445358

Iwasfrozen

Dionysus wrote: »

What an ignorant and backward thing to say.

Explain.

I just thanked his post. I would hate to think I am ignorant and backward.

I.Am.A.Panda

Personally, I would like to see a revamp in the course, regardless of whether or not it becomes optional.

For both the Leaving and Junior Cert. it should be split roughly 3 ways for Aurals, Orals and Written. I mean, all paperwork comes in English as well as Irish, so its biggest use is in the spoken form.

So, 30% for the Aurals, 30% for the Orals (Which I thinks shoudl be introduced for the JC but be realistic and at a simplistic scale of "Conas atá tú?", "What's your fav. band\Sports team", Stuff about your family and area, etc.

Then, there should be 40% for the writes, so even if you're not good at aurals and orals, you have a saving grace. I think the Comprehension, the recently introduced Grammar section, and letter ought to be kept, but be extended to include 3 comprehensions, 2 letters and a grammar section that analyses 2 tenses, along with the reg.\Irreg. versions. They're the most practical, and I know I've just taken out the hardest parts of the test, but to be honest you're never going to need to study Irish poetry or right an essay on social problems or a car crash you were in unless you intend to do so for your LC.

Also, there should be an Irish Book (No peg please) that should be read for Junior Cert, with you handing in a report on it for a few percent, or having to write about an aspect of it, much like the Prós we have. I like the idea of a book report, as it gives you a chance to show how good you are at Irish outside of a pressurised exam. And obviously, the teacher cannot help you too much, as copying is a no-no.

InTheTrees

I've heard my neices and nephews in connemara complain about the curriculum and that there's dialect issues in the forms of irish taught, is this true?

Not having a word i'm in no position to judge...

I.Am.A.Panda

InTheTrees wrote: »

I've heard my neices and nephews in connemara complain about the curriculum and that there's dialect issues in the forms of irish taught, is this true?

Yeah there's 3 different dialects, and native Connemara speakers get the short end of the stick since Dublin dictates the form of Irish learned. Also, havign to discern dialects via Aurals is torture >.<

InTheTrees

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

Yeah there's 3 different dialects, and native Connemara speakers get the short end of the stick since Dublin dictates the form of Irish learned. Also, havign to discern dialects via Aurals is torture >.<

So we're making it more difficult for kids in the gaeltacht rather than easier.

Krusader

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

Yeah there's 3 different dialects, and native Connemara speakers get the short end of the stick since Dublin dictates the form of Irish learned. Also, havign to discern dialects via Aurals is torture >.<

If anything the Caighdéan Oifigiúil is based heavily on Conamara Gaeilge. There is a need for it as it makes the language intelligible for everyone, and native speakers would only write in the CO (maybe older speakers wouldn't).
The differences are only minute in any case


The CO was devised by native speakers and scholars in the language and it will undergo a reform in the coming years anyways

InTheTrees

I've heard it referred to as "difficult" but really how difficult is it to learn?

How would it sit between say German as easy and Icelandic as Hard(i've heard!).

Its always been something i've wanted to do and as I get older and career needs are less its something I think I could devote the time to.

Any key?

I.Am.A.Panda wrote: »

Lol @ all the Modern Devs saying "It's our national identity!!!!!!"

Firstly, a lot of things make up our national identity, including:

- Alcoholism
- Irish dancing
- Fighting
- Smoking
- Leprechauns
- St.Patricks Day

Now, should the government fund programmes to nurture those? Of course not. People are picking out an aspect of "our" culture (By the way I disagree with the idea of the people as one entity) and saying it should be preserved, ignoring the other parts.

The idea people who speak Irish get a 10% mark bonus in state exams, get an automatic high mark in a compulsory subject versus the multitude who struggle with it, and get a general advanced start in society is BS to me. Seriously, the government made huge cuts the other departments, but the Ghaeltacht affairs, received an increase in the region of €2.5 million.

Seriously, every argument for Irish starts with "I'm an Irish speaker" or "I love Irish". This is basing the argument on personal opinion, rather than the facts. The facts are that the majority of students hate taking Irish, most people can't handle an Irish conversation after 13 years of forced education, English is a huge benefit to Ireland, and that basically, Irish is on the road to being dead, a road that no amount of government tampering can stop.

This post has only encouraged me to improve my Gaeilge............

Krusader

Irish isn't that hard, but it is at the start but everything comes together for you. I'm an adult learner and I'm loving learning it. I've learnt more Gaeilge in the last year than 13 years of school and I've learnt it off my own back through books,Cds,TG4,other websites and I've recently took classes which finished tonight actually, but I'll defo be going back.
Sometimes you can feel disheartened learning it but isn't everything in life like this, when I reach my goal of having fluent Irish, it will be all worth it and it will be a personal victory for me. You get out off it what you put in to it, but you will enjoy it definitley, it's like a whole other world/society around us that is invisible until you tap into it.

I.Am.A.Panda

InTheTrees wrote: »

So we're making it more difficult for kids in the gaeltacht rather than easier.

Generally. Connaught Irish is used, I think. Which sucks if you're not from Connaught\ Leinsteir.

irelandjoe

I am in the Carna, Galway at the moment. And Only heard one conversation in Irish since I've been here. I was expecting everyone to be talking in Irish !

InTheTrees

irelandjoe wrote: »

I am in the Carna, Galway at the moment. And Only heard one conversation in Irish since I've been here. I was expecting everyone to be talking in Irish !

Use your best D4 impersonation to ask directions. Should work.

Any key?

InTheTrees wrote: »

I've heard it referred to as "difficult" but really how difficult is it to learn?

How would it sit between say German as easy and Icelandic as Hard(i've heard!).

Its always been something i've wanted to do and as I get older and career needs are less its something I think I could devote the time to.

where are you from? Its been compared to Russian and apparently thats tough enough (verb and tense wise).
Once you're dedecated its not hard x

InTheTrees

Any key? wrote: »

where are you from? Its been compared to Russian and apparently thats tough enough (verb and tense wise).
Once you're dedecated its not hard x

Dublin.

In the US now though.

Any key?

InTheTrees wrote: »

Dublin.

In the US now though.

Why are you asking If its difficult you've obviously had an experience of it?

Iwasfrozen

The most annoying thing about learning Irish has to be the annoying fúcking accents in the aural exams.

I mean where the hell do they get those people ? Dragged kicking and screaming out of a bog in Galway I would imagine.

Krusader

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The most annoying thing about learning Irish has to be the annoying fúcking accents in the aural exams.

I mean where the hell do they get those people ? Dragged kicking and screaming out of a bog in Galway I would imagine.

:rolleyes:

The goal of any language education is so you can be intelligible to native speakers and them to you. Where do you expect them to come from, Greenland?

dlofnep

irelandjoe wrote: »

I am in the Carna, Galway at the moment. And Only heard one conversation in Irish since I've been here. I was expecting everyone to be talking in Irish !

Peculiar. I heard the exact opposite from a friend who was in Carna about 4 months ago.

Iwasfrozen

Crosáidí wrote: »

:rolleyes:

The goal of any language education is so you can be intelligible to native speakers and them to you. Where do you expect them to come from, Greenland?

First off: What native speakers ? We are talking about Irish. The day of the monoligual Irish speaker is long gone.

Still I would expect them to have a standered Irish accent, not the Oirish I'm more used to hearing on American films them an Irish Aural exam.

Secondly: Of course I don't expect them to come from Greenland. Don't be silly.

Krusader

There are people you know that grow up in areas that have Irish as there first community language, these are native speakers

Dutch people can speak English, does this not make them native Dutch speakers

PK2008

Crosáidí wrote: »

Irish isn't that hard, but it is at the start but everything comes together for you. I'm an adult learner and I'm loving learning it. I've learnt more Gaeilge in the last year than 13 years of school and I've learnt it off my own back through books,Cds,TG4,other websites and I've recently took classes which finished tonight actually, but I'll defo be going back.
Sometimes you can feel disheartened learning it but isn't everything in life like this, when I reach my goal of having fluent Irish, it will be all worth it and it will be a personal victory for me. You get out off it what you put in to it, but you will enjoy it definitley, it's like a whole other world/society around us that is invisible until you tap into it.

Hmmmm not too sure about that analogy, for example learning to drive is hard at first but when you do learn it it gives you alot of practical advatages- so its worth learning. If I learned to speak Irish it would be of no practical use to me- none of my friends, family or work colleagues speak it or at least in situations where I need to speak with them in it. In fact, I would have to actively seek out an Irish speaker to speak it with, and then, after the novelty of speaking Irish to a random person wore off, I would have to think of things to talk to them about. All the while I could be speaking to people I actually know and like speaking to in a language I already know.

Language is just a means of communication, we can already speak English so why bother learning another. Unless you have to of course, in order to communcate with people who speak a different language, like Germans etc

I speak German btw, but only cos I work with Germans