Irish language?

dr gonzo

(mods please move if this shouldnt be here)

A mate(A boards moderator in fact) and i agree to disagree about the Irish language, he thinks its dead and we should move on which ill admit, irritates me a little because i think its something important to hang on to.

I fully understand that its not widely spoken and therefore all the irish usage in our society is not for better comprehension but merely cultural. On top of that its rich of me to say its important when I dont even speak it but thats why i want to get the general consensus.

Is it worth keeping or should we just be rid of it?

dr gonzo

dr gonzo wrote: »

(
Is it worth keeping or should we just be rid of it?

Not worth keeping if we don't use it! As a learner I do try to speak it from time to time a cúpla focal but it's very rare that it gets any further.

fro9etb8j5qsl2

i think it should be kept and the government should fund more programmes that would encourage people to speak it more often. it's part of our national identity and its such a shame that so few people use it on a daily basis. i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

AnonoBoy

It's fierce handy for talking about foreigners without them knowing what we're saying.

bambera

séa

Wibbs

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

Try any number of countries actually. The first words on the moon spoken by an american werent in Navajo. Even in these islands, how many speak pict or cornish or manx? Languages come and go and evolve. Nature of the beast.

antodeco

The problem lies with how we are educates with it in schools. By the time you do your leaving, most people think it's pointless and more of a "joke" language.

There needs to be appreciation of the language first before it's accepted as part of society.

My daughter goes to an Irish School, and I feel that she is part of a community that is traditional, but also made a mockery of due to it's perception in modern society.

Millie Whispering Huntsman

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

Most of the native Americans (north and south) have lost their languages along with Aboriginies, as well as many Afriacan nations.

The process of "language shift" is still happening in many African states, anothe generation and the first language in many African countries will be english

orourkeda

It's dead and time we gave it the burial it deserves

Dionysus

Deleted User wrote: »

anothe generation and the first language in many African countries will be english

Or Chinese, probably Chinese the way things are going there now. The pace and depth of Chinese involvement in Africa at the moment is astonishing, and scary.

dlofnep

These types of polls have been run in many shapes and forms.

I'm a big fan of the Irish language, and took it upon myself 3 years ago to learn it - and have done so to a decent level at this point. (Although there is always more I can learn).

I feel the education needs to be revamped with more focus on spoken Irish - with spoken Irish being a unique subject, and grammar being made optional at leaving cert level, with conversational Irish remaining as part of the curriculum. This takes less pressure off students, and helps develop grá don teanga and give students the ability to speak the language. Teach it as a language, not as a subject.

Trashbat

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's fierce handy for talking about foreigners without them knowing what we're saying.

so is having a Cork accent, to be fair.

dr gonzo

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the native Americans (north and south) have lost their languages along with Aboriginies, as well as many Afriacan nations.

The process of "language shift" is still happening in many African states, anothe generation and the first language in many African countries will be english

Yeh i dont think theres much doubt that were the Irish government to stop keeping it a cultural imperative to maintain Irish it would die out quick enough.

DazMarz

I think it's something that is never going to be used much in the mainstream again. I'm a fluent Irish speaker, but have to admit I'm a bit embarrassed by the extent that it is pushed in our society... For example:

-In Madrid, on the underground and everywhere, all public service notices are in Spanish, French, German, Italian and English. That is brilliant, IMO, for everyone who would visit Spain, as the chances of people not speaking even the most limited form of one of those languages is slim. What do we have on our signs here? English and Irish. Fúck sake...

Dionysus

DazMarz wrote: »

In Madrid, on the underground and everywhere, all public service notices are in Spanish, French, German, Italian and English. That is brilliant, IMO, for everyone who would visit Spain, as the chances of people not speaking even the most limited form of one of those languages is slim. What do we have on our signs here? English and Irish. Fúck sake...

Having Irish on all the signs is one of the most refreshing and nicest things about living in modern Ireland.

Wibbs

The people that voted in favour of the language, if I may ask a question? How many can speak it? If not why not, if you support it? The language is more likely to die from an excess of lip service, than it will thrive by moving lips as Gaelige.

neil_hosey

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the native Americans (north and south) have lost their languages along with Aboriginies, as well as many Afriacan nations.

The process of "language shift" is still happening in many African states, anothe generation and the first language in many African countries will be english

and do you think this is a good thing?

In my opinion its devastating to a culture and a country. If you look around the world, you can identify many countries from the language they speak, its part of their culture, europe being a prime example. Even if you look around europe look at the number of countries who dont speak their native language as their first language. Is there even 3 or 4? with ireland being the biggest?

Either way, the only way irish will be saved is by people using it on a daily basis. There are so many ways to improve the usage of irish but theres 2 many idiots in charge who clearly for past 80 odd years never bothered gettin their fingers out of their árses

Is beatha teanga í a labhairt.

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

The people that voted in favour of the language, if I may ask a question? How many can speak it? If not why not, if you support it? The language is more likely to die from an excess of lip service, than it will thrive by moving lips as Gaelige.

I can only speak on my own behalf.

I can speak Irish, and started learning it off my own back 3 years ago. I created the only conversational group in my city, and have run it it for 3 years. I've promoted the language at every cost here, writing articles in the newspaper - and marketing our irish nights. I've attended marches and protests for the language - driving often as far as 6 hours to Belfast for the Acht na Gaeilge march.

I always wish I could do more - but there's only so much I can do with college and a part time job. Everyone else who's involved in the language that I know puts in alot of effort into promoting it, and really loves the language - wishing that they could do more.

neil_hosey

neil_hosey wrote: »

and do you think this is a good thing?

No, I was just stating a fact! It is sad fact that in the past couple of centuries the number of spoken languages in the world has probably fallen by about 70% (wild guess, it could be more), along with the unique culture of those peoples as well.

fontanalis

orourkeda wrote: »

It's dead and time we gave it the burial it deserves

Why does it deserve it? Just becasue some languages come and go why should some be allowed to?
I think it has a very bad image problem (and the muppets behind the education didn't help) and is not an attractive language to listen too, like French or Italian.
But it's part of the culture and I find it hilarious that people have this attitude. I think it comes down to what Irish culture is also?

fontanalis

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I was just stating a fact! It is sad fact that in the past couple of centuries the number of spoken languages in the world has probably fallen by about 70% (wild guess, it could be more), along with the unique culture of those peoples as well.

But the empires that destroyed those languages are gone, I really don't get the disdain for the language.

dlofnep

fontanalis wrote: »

But the empires that destroyed those languages are gone, I really don't get the disdain for the language.

I understand why some people aren't warm to the language.

13 years of studying it and not being able to speak it is going to really irk people, and rightfully so. Because of this, less people have an ability to speak it - and it's less visible in society - so many feel that the language has lost it's purpose.

So you can either take the route of forgetting about it, and burying the language - or you can push for educational reform, and making it more visible in society again.

neil_hosey

neil_hosey wrote: »

Either way, the only way irish will be saved is by people using it on a daily basis. There are so many ways to improve the usage of irish but theres 2 many idiots in charge who clearly for past 80 odd years never bothered gettin their fingers out of their árses

Is beatha teanga í a labhairt.

Language needs to be treated as a means of communication rather than a heratage/cultural thing, I think that is one of the main reasons it's dying on it's feet.

fontanalis

dlofnep wrote: »

I understand why some people aren't warm to the language.

13 years of studying it and not being able to speak it is going to really irk people, and rightfully so. Because of this, less people have an ability to speak it - and it's less visible in society - so many feel that the language has lost it's purpose.

So you can either take the route of forgetting about it, and burying the language - or you can push for educational reform, and making it more visible in society again.

I think this is where it lies and the over the top jingoistic attitude to it held by some must go. But I think the disdain comes at an earlier stage than getting the 13 years. I remember the peolpe who were boasting about dropping it would be the same coming out with anti english shyte.

dr gonzo

Deleted User wrote: »

Language needs to be treated as a means of communication rather than a heratage/cultural thing, I think that is one of the main reasons it's dying on it's feet.

Well thats not necessarily true. With English, for example, already the language of business, entertainment and really just one of the worlds default languages it wouldnt be inconceivable for a country to change, which would be logical IF communication was all a country saw in their language but of course they dont and wont because its culturally very important to them.

dlofnep

fontanalis wrote: »

I think this is where it lies and the over the top jingoistic attitude to it held by some must go. But I think the disdain comes at an earlier stage than getting the 13 years.

Well, it's obviously not a sudden thing that happens over night. It's something that gradually builds up. And let's be clear about it - not everybody hates the language. Most people I speak to are positive towards it. I especially notice this when randomers come over to express how it's nice to hear the language when we're on our nights out.

There's not one single reason for the fall, or disdain as you put it for the language. But I think that the current education has alot to do with it. I think reform can really change the attitude towards the Irish language.

neil_hosey

Deleted User wrote: »

Language needs to be treated as a means of communication rather than a heratage/cultural thing, I think that is one of the main reasons it's dying on it's feet.

Does it though? The one and only reason i think the language isnt spoken more is because of the way it is taught. Students unable to grasp any subject automatically hate it, and trying to understand the complicated imagery of something like Treall by Caitlin Maude! its completely feckin pointless!!

The main focus should all be on speaking and the enjoyment of speaking one of the oldest languages in europe.

Krusader

As a young lad I failed my LC in Irish, had no use for it and never heard it been used. But as an adult learner I love it and always felt I had unfinished business with it and it is actually a really beautiful language when you begin to listen and learn it. And it ain't that hard really

Go and join a class and have the craic and widen your circle of friends
Labhair í agus mairfidh sí

fontanalis

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, it's obviously not a sudden thing that happens over night. It's something that gradually builds up. And let's be clear about it - not everybody hates the language. Most people I speak to are positive towards it. I especially notice this when randomers come over to express how it's nice to hear the language when we're on our nights out.

There's not one single reason for the fall, or disdain as you put it for the language. But I think that the current education has alot to do with it. I think reform can really change the attitude towards the Irish language.

I remember in one of my history books reasons given for the decline were that people were expected to emigrate and so english was picked up early and the language was associated with poverty. Do you think these things might have rolled over into the 20th century?
I also don't think for a minute Ireland will ever be a bi-lingual society but I just hope it might get to a stage where people don't call for it to be buried.

jimmycrackcorm

Wibbs wrote: »

The people that voted in favour of the language, if I may ask a question? How many can speak it? If not why not, if you support it? The language is more likely to die from an excess of lip service, than it will thrive by moving lips as Gaelige.

I send my kids to a Gaelscoil and with the growth of these schools I reckon in years to come the language will revive. Without it there's very little to define us as being Irish.

fontanalis

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I send my kids to a Gaelscoil and with the growth of these schools I reckon in years to come the language will revive. Without it there's very little to define us as being Irish.

There's drink and . . . . NAMA

Mr Benevolent

Dionysus wrote: »

Or Chinese, probably Chinese the way things are going there now. The pace and depth of Chinese involvement in Africa at the moment is astonishing, and scary.

No change there. Cultures will always move on or evaporate. The American culture is an artificial construct, so are most monarchies (they were all brought back to give the citizens of Spain/UK/Sweden/Belgium etc etc something to be proud of.)

What's so scary about the Chinese taking over? The Caucasians took over 2000 years ago and now it's time to move on. None of us will be around to see the complete integration of Chinese cultures into our own but rest assured it will happen.

In summary, 'culture' is a tenuous thing and will collapse and reform at will. The next culture to collapse will be the American variant and then Europe will go next. For feck's sake even our religion is virtually brand new and it's already in the dust. Sometimes I think people assume that there were no cultures before the 1500s.

As a species we've been around for 200,000 years. How many cultures have risen and fallen in that time? Tens of thousands. The Caucasians will fall too.

robinph

Wibbs wrote: »

Try any number of countries actually. The first words on the moon spoken by an american werent in Navajo. Even in these islands, how many speak pict or cornish or manx? Languages come and go and evolve. Nature of the beast.

Your forgetting about those evil Portuguese who successfully wiped out all of the Spanish speakers who lived in Brazil before they got there, well I guess that is where Spanish comes from as everyone else in South America speaks it.

Deedsie

Lean Ar Aghaidh

fontanalis

Confab wrote: »

No change there. Cultures will always move on or evaporate. The American culture is an artificial construct, so are most monarchies (they were all brought back to give the citizens of Spain/UK/Sweden/Belgium etc etc something to be proud of.)

What's so scary about the Chinese taking over? The Caucasians took over 2000 years ago and now it's time to move on. None of us will be around to see the complete integration of Chinese cultures into our own but rest assured it will happen.

In summary, 'culture' is a tenuous thing and will collapse and reform at will. The next culture to collapse will be the American variant and then Europe will go next. For feck's sake even our religion is virtually brand new and it's already in the dust. Sometimes I think people assume that there were no cultures before the 1500s.

As a species we've been around for 200,000 years. How many cultures have risen and fallen in that time? Tens of thousands. The Caucasians will fall too.

Who were The Caucasians?

Krusader

They live in th Caucus mountains Georgia

fontanalis

Crosáidí wrote: »

They live in th Caucus mountains Georgia

I thought a skeleton was found near the Caucus mountains and the name was used to describe a race.

Krusader

possibly??

I'm a Gael though not a Caucasian

fontanalis

Crosáidí wrote: »

possibly??

I'm a Gael though not a Caucasian

Sure you're not a Milesian?

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

I can only speak on my own behalf.

I can speak Irish, and started learning it off my own back 3 years ago. I created the only conversational group in my city, and have run it it for 3 years. I've promoted the language at every cost here, writing articles in the newspaper - and marketing our irish nights. I've attended marches and protests for the language - driving often as far as 6 hours to Belfast for the Acht na Gaeilge march.

I always wish I could do more - but there's only so much I can do with college and a part time job. Everyone else who's involved in the language that I know puts in alot of effort into promoting it, and really loves the language - wishing that they could do more.

And fair play and genuine kudos to you. Too many pay lip service, but youre up against a lot of weak hypocrisy too. Loads claim sure tis only great and part of us and then cant speak a word of it nor attempt to learn. Its a concept to support not an actual language.

Why do I tend to dismiss it?

The way it was taught was dire.

Too many chuckies involved and indeed our old friend the church. It came across as a stick to beat the engerlish with or an extension of our national whine, rather than a vibrant communication tool.

The lack in my day of anything approaching interesting you would want to read in it. Ditto with telly programs. Back then it was either some god awful game show type thing or the life story of some far flung islander with a face like an angry boil (thankfully changing in both areas). They say the Inuit have 100 names for snow, well it seemed like Irish had 100 names for being utterly bloody miserable. Peig cemented that one.

My feeling at least that its become an invented language. A somewhat back engineered esperanto. There are a few dialects even among the small number of actual native speakers. So its been homogenised. Grand, so was French, not that long ago either. The other issue is if I learn it for ten years, a native speaker will know Im not a "native". Much like if I learned French for 10 years. I would speak French but it wouldnt make me French. So how would learning Irish make me anymore Irish? Its not my first language and thems the breaks.

Yes I think it should be supported, but not to the degree it is being supported. There is a smug language facism in some quarters. That mini Dev O Cuiv is the leader of that lot. An Daingan my arse.

Krusader

This is a nice video that tells a tale of how, we got our native tongue, I quite like it, also its in Ulster Irish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAdaLKxrI8

fontanalis

Crosáidí wrote: »

This is a nice video that tells a tale of how, we got our native tongue, I quite like it, also its in Ulster Irish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFAdaLKxrI8

Can't watch youtube vids at work, could you summarise it please?
Didn't Gaelic arrive during the iron Age with the movement of celtic language and culture? So what would the language have been before? In Stephen Oppenhemiers book I think he said it may have been like basque as that's the region the first settlers in Irleand came form.

Wibbs

Confab wrote: »

No change there. Cultures will always move on or evaporate. The American culture is an artificial construct, so are most monarchies (they were all brought back to give the citizens of Spain/UK/Sweden/Belgium etc etc something to be proud of.)

One could argue all cultures are artificial constructs.

What's so scary about the Chinese taking over? The Caucasians took over 2000 years ago and now it's time to move on. None of us will be around to see the complete integration of Chinese cultures into our own but rest assured it will happen.

Possible, though I doubt it. If history is anything to go by, they'll move out for a while and then go back. People forget that while China has one helluva long and extremely vibrant culture, it was mired in medieval feudal times around 150 years ago, when it first opened to the west to any great degree. The culture they have now is more western than chinese. Yes they have adapted it locally, but its very western. More than it was even 40 years ago. Western style dress and TV and music and film and business tweaked locally. Economically and socially they're quite vulnerable too. It could happen, but I cant see the rest of the world becoming culturally Chinese any time soon. Hey even with religion, Christianity is making big inroads into paces like china and though originally a middle east religion at source is actually more a European construct.

In summary, 'culture' is a tenuous thing and will collapse and reform at will. The next culture to collapse will be the American variant and then Europe will go next. For feck's sake even our religion is virtually brand new and it's already in the dust. Sometimes I think people assume that there were no cultures before the 1500s.

Again I do agree with you.These things ebb and flow. Cultures that last tend to be monumental, unchanging with limited enough empires(China, ancient Egypt which stood for 1000's of years) or very dynamic ones that move with the times.

As a species we've been around for 200,000 years. How many cultures have risen and fallen in that time? Tens of thousands. The Caucasians will fall too.

Its how they fall thats interesting. They follow certain patterns. Over expansion etc, but the biggest is complexity and lack of social movement within that complexity. Rome didnt fall cos of the barbarians at the gates, it fell cos Romans werent that pushed on being romans anymore and the interrelated complexity of their society made it very vulnerable. All modern cultures have that problem at this moment. Very little would push them over the edge. The black death didnt stop europe even with the loss of a third of its people. It was a simple society and because of that more resistant to such a pressure. If the balck death happened today? Game over.

Funny on the language front... the Roman empire didnt fall in the 5th century. The western empire did. The eastern empire kept going for a lot longer. It became more socially mobile and simpler and it changed its language to Greek and left Latin behind. So maybe if the crapola hits the fan we may be looking to peeps like dlofnep for our salvation

Krusader

fontanalis wrote: »

Can't watch youtube vids at work, could you summarise it please?
Didn't Gaelic arrive during the iron Age with the movement of celtic language and culture? So what would the language have been before? In Stephen Oppenhemiers book I think he said it may have been like basque as that's the region the first settlers in Irleand came form.

Yeah Gaelic comes from Northern spain from around Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country, Galego is still spoken in Galicia ( its the most NW area in Spain )
This is where Milesius and the Ibero-Celts came from that conquered Ireland from the Tuatha Dé Danann

fontanalis

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yeah Gaelic comes from Northern spain from around Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country, Galego is still spoken in Galicia ( its the most NW area in Spain )
This is where Milesius and the Ibero-Celts came from that conquered Ireland from the Tuatha Dé Danann

I mentioned Stephen Oppenheimer above, he's a geneticist who done testing to determine the ancestry of the british isles. he doesn't see evidence of any mass invasion from around the iron age time ie celts
He claims that the first settlers of Ireland directly after the ice age came from what is now the Basque region, about 90% of Irish peoples ancestry can be traced to this area and thsi forst settlement between 12,000 to 15,000 years ago and there is no evidence to support a conquering tribe (he claims the same with the English and Saxons). The idea is that the term celt is more of a language and culture group instead of ethnic/race.

owenc

well people should learn it if they want to but they shouldnt be going around and putting irish on all the signs and everything as i dont have half a clue what its saying and the majority of other people dont i know only a few people which can speak it. it could be kept for like a culture thing to know but to be honest its not really usefull i mean this is the only place were its spoken... and even here rarely anyone knows it.

Joey the lips

Anyone who speaks irish should be beaten senseless till they speak the queens english

Nevermind_

I have heard previously that Irish is the oldest living language in Europe, (according to my old history teacher) although these days it is on life support.
It would be a shame to see it disappear.

Iwasfrozen

Nevermind_ wrote: »

It would be a shame to see it disappear.

Why ?

fontanalis

Nevermind_ wrote: »

I have heard previously that Irish is the oldest living language in Europe, (according to my old history teacher) although these days it is on life support.
It would be a shame to see it disappear.

Doubt it, I think Basque is alot older.

mysterypotato

For me, the point is not whether we should get rid of the language as much as identifying the relevance of it within our culture and appreciating it that way. In simple terms, kids are force fed a language they see little value in. They are required to learn it by rote right up to Leaving Cert level. There is such little interest in it that, in my daughters' year, there are just 4 students taking Honours Level Irish, the others either do not wish to pursue it, or are concentrating on on their other subjects to gain points.

This in itself speaks volumes as to the state of the language as perceived by our young people, the future of this country.

On a personal level I would like to see my daughter studying a far more relevant subject, such as another European language, or an extra science subject. Something that will enhance her chances of further education or employment.

This is not to say it should not be taught, but returning to my earlier point on identifying the relevance, my belief is it should be taught not as a language, but part of an Irish Culture and Heritage subject, much the same as Latin is taught in private schools in the UK. It should be recognised for its importance in a cultural and heritage context and an option provided to learn it should the student wish to after third year. But should NOT be compulsory in the context of a modern language as, simply put, it is no longer a modern language and only serves to waste the time of my daughter when she has enough to be getting on with.