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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #212
    leshamry
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭leshamry


    press.jpg

    http://www.celtcia.com/metronorth/concept.pdf


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    #213
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »

    What does "Make the Metro Irish" mean, care to explain?

    The image is physically hosted on this site

    http://www.celtcia.com/

    Those people on whose site that image is posted did 'concept' stuff re Stephens Green station some years back.

    I have no idea who for because they elegantly called this one "l'arche le sham" and I cannot find their purported client. This would be the MN platform and a rather grand object opposite Grafton street on the surface.

    http://www.celtcia.com/metronorth/drawings/draft/2016.pdf

    Something very odd about all this to say the least :(


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    #214
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Something very odd about all this to say the least :(

    Quite.

    @leshamry, either discuss what you are linking, or do not post. End of story. Random links and pictures do not encourage or aid discussion and are hence frowned upon.


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    #215
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We have seen quite a few hysterical single issue posters from the MN and Interconnector camps over the years, here was one.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=171239

    another

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=314660

    and they are just the ones I can recall offhand and are by no means an exhaustive list :)


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    #216
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Time for a link of actual relevance methinks:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0315/1224266296888.html
    IARNRÓD ÉIREANN has had to delay its application to construct the Dart underground following discussions with An Bord Pleanála.

    The company had been due to apply for a railway order for the project by the end of this month. However, due to “issues” raised by An Bord Pleanála in pre-planning meetings, it has had to look at its plans again; it now hopes to submit an application by the end of June.

    A company spokesman said he could not give details of the issues raised by the planning board, but that they related to the detailed design and alignment of the route.

    Opposition to the plans from residents in Inchicore, where the line will terminate, was “not one of the issues raised” by An Bord Pleanála and was not the reason for the delay, he added.

    The 7.6km underground line, due to open in 2015, will link Heuston station to the Dart line for the first time, with underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse Street, St Stephen’s Green, Christchurch, Heuston and with a ground-level station at Inchicore.

    However, some residents in Inchicore are opposing the development, claiming that tunnel-boring and station construction in such a densely populated area would make life unbearable.

    A recently published report by London-based tunnelling consultants OTB Engineering, commissioned by residents group Inchicore on Track, recommended relocating the construction works a few hundred metres to an Iarnród Éireann works site.

    The Dart underground project will involve splitting the current Dart line which runs north-south along the coast and creating a new interchange at Pearse Street. Once built, passengers travelling from the north side will no longer have direct access to Connolly or Tara Street stations. Their Dart will run as normal to Clontarf Road, but will then enter a tunnel at East Wall and continue to Inchicore.

    Southside passengers will still have access to Pearse, Tara Street and Connolly.

    However, after passing through Connolly, their train will turn west out to Maynooth, Co Kildare. To head north, they will have to change at Pearse.

    Something told me this was going to happen. :(

    Also, is anyone else getting fed up with The Irish Times' emphasis on the splitting of the line, rather than two new lines it will create.


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    #217
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Also, is anyone else getting fed up with The Irish Times' emphasis on the splitting of the line, rather than two new lines it will create.

    The journo probably loses a direct connection that they currently have and is doing their best to scupper the project.


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    #218
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    A company spokesman said he could not give details of the issues raised by the planning board, but that they related to the detailed design and alignment of the route.

    1. Where is the missing link west of Kylemore Road Bridge lads?
    2. Just before the missing link the blue tracks invade peoples back gardens
    crapquad2.jpg

    3. The blue tracks are most likely elevated there, shall we close Kylemore road so.
    4. Sure we might as well tunnel to Parkwest altogether ???


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    #219
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    In the Times article, they make it sound like going underground in a 'densely populated area' is a bad thing...


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    #220
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    4. Sure we might as well tunnel to Parkwest altogether ???

    Actually how practical would this be, seeing all the issues being raised at Ichicore.

    I mean, those lads clearly don’t want a station, so don’t give them one. That’s the most expensive element dealt with, how much extra would it cost to tunnel that extra bit. And where would the portals be located?
    Aard wrote: »
    In the Times article, they make it sound like going underground in a 'densely populated area' is a bad thing...

    The area in the immediate vicinity of the station isn't even that dense.


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    #221
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Actually how practical would this be, seeing all the issues being raised at Inchicore.

    I mean, those lads clearly don’t want a station, so don’t give them one. That’s the most expensive element dealt with, how much extra would it cost to tunnel that extra bit. And where would the portals be located?

    Portal about here

    http://ims0.osiemaps.ie/website/publicviewer/main.aspx#V1,708881,732909,7

    Go underground east of Park west ...by the old Cherry Orchard station latest. No station in Inchicore at all.

    Bring the tunnel across and in to town underneath the existing track from east of Parkwest station. All IE owned land too.


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    #222
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    But there is no working space for a portal there unless you start knocking things. Its just moving a problem from one place to a smaller place. At the cost of a few hundred million.


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    #223
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Victor wrote: »
    But there is no working space for a portal there unless you start knocking things.

    It strikes me thet they will knocks thing from Kylemore road to the west ( and east) as well...but they won't admit that in public.

    So I would look at this area here:

    http://ims0.osiemaps.ie/website/publicviewer/main.aspx#V1,708191,732872,8

    And restore it as a Bus Station.
    Its just moving a problem from one place to a smaller place. At the cost of a few hundred million.

    The real cost to CIE is if they affect the twin track from parkwest to heuston and destroy their intercity rail network. The current proposal would appear guaranteed to do that as they dig in the portal/station/shaft at Inchicore and annoy half of Ballyfermot . At least here they can leave two tracks working fully at all times...like now.


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    #224
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    God damn ABP and their pointless, pointless delays.


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    #225
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Also, is anyone else getting fed up with The Irish Times' emphasis on the splitting of the line, rather than two new lines it will create.
    This is worrying. If the "paper of record" is already trying to portray the two new lines as a negative thing then what will happen if this thing ever gets built? There will be calls for retention of Greystones-Howth/Malahide trains, which could end up having to be taken seriously. Running these trains would cancel out the capacity benefits provided by the tunnel. You only have to look at the bendy bus fiasco in London to see how a press campaign, even without widespread public support, can lead to nonsensical decisions being made.


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    #226
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    etchyed wrote: »
    This is worrying. If the "paper of record" is already trying to portray the two new lines as a negative thing then what will happen if this thing ever gets built? There will be calls for retention of Greystones-Howth/Malahide trains, which could end up having to be taken seriously.

    This is my worry, the journalist in question maybe affected by the "splitting of the lines" and sees his life may get marginally more difficult. He will therefor refer to it as a bad thing rather than highlight the benefits.


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    #227
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    And why are you posting this in the DART Underground thread anyway, when there is a Metro North one provided here. Not that your post would be any more discursive or helpful in that thread of course.

    Perhaps he is using "Metro" to refer to the combined MN and DARTu network.

    To be honest it's about time we decided what we are going to call this network - the Dublin Underground (hell no)? The Dublin Metro? The Dublin Subway? The tiúb?

    Something gaelic would be nice imo.

    I quite like the Celtcia designs and I do think it's very important that the Metro has character and isn't just a bland, generic subway system, although I have to say I don't think the shamrock should be used in it's design.

    I'd rather a triquetra - a little more classy perhaps? And just as celtic.

    triquetra.gif

    I think this would work both as a design motif, a logo and as the logo for the Dublin "Oyster card" in the works.

    Thoughts?


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    #228
    citycentre
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭citycentre


    Yixian wrote: »
    Perhaps he is using "Metro" to refer to the combined MN and DARTu network.

    To be honest it's about time we decided what we are going to call this network - the Dublin Underground (hell no)? The Dublin Metro? The Dublin Subway? The tiúb?

    Something gaelic would be nice imo.

    I quite like the Celtcia designs and I do think it's very important that the Metro has character and isn't just a bland, generic subway system, although I have to say I don't think the shamrock should be used in it's design.

    I'd rather a triquetra - a little more classy perhaps? And just as celtic.

    triquetra.gif

    I think this would work both as a design motif, a logo and as the logo for the Dublin "Oyster card" in the works.

    Thoughts?

    Nice idea, much much better than the Shamrock nonsense... It's a nice graphic, has a sense of movement and dynamism and
    it also could reflect the "3 into 1" nature of Dublin's transport system - the Luas, Dart and Metro were they all to be branded together (as they should be)... No idea what name could be used to bring them together though? Funnily enough DART would work quite well for the entire system, although "Rapid" might be stretching it a bit when it comes to the Luas!


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    #229
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    Yixian wrote: »
    triquetra.gif

    Thoughts?
    Disgusting.

    On a more serious note, I'm not so worried about this branding thing. I think eventually the NTA will pull its finger out and develop a Dublin Transport brand, that will be carried on ticketing, network maps, timetables and a unified transport information website. Luas, Dublin Bus, Metro and DART can all be co-branded with Dublin Transport (or whatever it ends up being). Look at Germany, Berlin for example. S-Bahn is operated by DB and U-Bahn by BVG. But they're linked together in a common VBB ticketing system. At the end of the day, everything slots together nicely, even if it doesn't all have the same brand.


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    #230
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Yixian wrote: »
    To be honest it's about time we decided what we are going to call this network - the Dublin Underground (hell no)? The Dublin Metro? The Dublin Subway? The tiúb?

    Wouldn't call it an underground. Even taking the whole system combined, only 14 stops will be underground.

    Something Irish would be nice though. And a good, distinctive logo.

    I'm fine with the distinction between Luas and DART. The new "Metro" should just be considered part of the Luas network for the time being. Luas Blue Line or something. If and when the Green Line is upgraded to Metro and if "Metro" West is actually built to Metro standards, then you can have that branded "Metro".


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    #231
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    14 stops is fine for an underground, you're not going to want to have all different labels for the different networks otherwise tourists are going to hate it. Transport for tourists in Dublin is already shockingly bad.

    Io it should be:

    DART + DARTu + Metro North (and eventually West?) = Dublin Metro

    LUAS

    Buses

    1, 2, 3, quite nicely reflected in a triquetra.

    Have them all covered by a Dublin "Octopus"/"Oyster" card and you're set.



    Here's my vision:

    33vkv4m.png

    I really do think a triquetra would be an ideal motif for Transport for Dublin.


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    #232
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Yixian wrote: »
    DART + DARTu + Metro North (and eventually West?) = Dublin Metro

    I'd be fine with this, but you may as well just brand it "DART" then, and then leave the remainder (including MW) as LUAS.

    DART for heavy and light segregated rail.

    LUAS for on-street.

    Works for me. :)


    I like the card, though I don't think etchyed would be a big fan :D


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    #233
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Yixian wrote: »
    God damn ABP and their pointless, pointless delays.

    The missing link is key to my ever supporting it. If it takes them until June to design it, presconsult with an bord pleanala and hold public consultations then all the better.

    It is not ready for a railway order absent the missing link. Do remember that the bloody thing was supposed to end in Heuston for ages and was utterly pointless.

    They nearly got it right late last year when they brought it as far as Inchicore and now we are missing a mile of quad track and ditching the Inchicore station would nearly pay for that.

    Surely some factory along the south side is empty and can be levelled for the shaft.


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    #234
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Wouldn't call it an underground. Even taking the whole system combined, only 14 stops will be underground.

    Something Irish would be nice though. And a good, distinctive logo.

    I'm fine with the distinction between Luas and DART. The new "Metro" should just be considered part of the Luas network for the time being. Luas Blue Line or something. If and when the Green Line is upgraded to Metro and if "Metro" West is actually built to Metro standards, then you can have that branded "Metro".

    How about a blast from the past...

    attachment.php?attachmentid=107741&d=1268685795

    It reminds me of the London transport logo...
    Transport_for_London-logo-7A15376D10-seeklogo.com.gif

    I like the idea of using Celtic and Irish symbols such as the triquetra but in a much more modern and contemporary way

    e.g...

    SP01007Lc.gif

    http://www.designspotter.com/profile/Stephen-Fitz-Gerald.html#

    http://www.nuada.com/Him/66,33,1,Celtic-Art-Claddagh-Fusion-Ring-Mens.html

    http://www.abetecture.com/mirrors.htm

    But I'd also like to see the on-street station entrances for metro/DARTu be like the paris metro but with a classic Georgian Dublin style...

    metro.jpeg

    2529514994_012e23aee5.jpg

    3275414327_af578bc092.jpg?v=0

    J%20Dublin%20lamp.jpg

    dublin-street-lamp_%7E1806888.jpg
    dublin-street-lamp_%7E1806888.jpg


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    #235
    brandodub
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭brandodub


    Yixian wrote: »
    14 stops is fine for an underground, you're not going to want to have all different labels for the different networks otherwise tourists are going to hate it. Transport for tourists in Dublin is already shockingly bad.

    Io it should be:

    DART + DARTu + Metro North (and eventually West?) = Dublin Metro

    LUAS

    Buses

    1, 2, 3, quite nicely reflected in a triquetra.

    Have them all covered by a Dublin "Octopus"/"Oyster" card and you're set.



    Here's my vision:

    33vkv4m.png

    I really do think a triquetra would be an ideal motif for Transport for Dublin.

    Excellent concept


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    #236
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    green_jesus wrote: »

    But I'd also like to see the on-street station entrances for metro/DARTu be like the paris metro but with a classic Georgian Dublin style...

    metro.jpeg
    2529514994_012e23aee5.jpg

    Blend these two and you have a winner.

    Although the most variation in station designs and the more iconic to each of their locations the better.

    if any distinction is made between MN and DARTu in the eyes of the public once these things are operational though, that's a fail. This must be "Dublin Metro", the LUAS and the buses, simple as that - with one card and one journey planner to rule them all.


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    #237
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    green_jesus wrote: »
    How about a blast from the past...

    attachment.php?attachmentid=107741&d=1268685795

    That thing's an ugly, cluttered mess and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near our transport system.

    Something simple, maybe just some kind of nice arrow, which could then have "DART", "LUAS" or "Bus" put on top of it.


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    #238
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    How about having Transport for Dublin as the over-arching brand for Dublin metropolitan transport, with the LUAS, Metro and buses being the 3 components of it.

    Combining these 3 services you could get pretty much anywhere you wanted very easily and pretty quickly.

    2lny0er.gif

    These "Transport for Dublin" people really need to step up to make it happen though.


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    #239
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    That thing's an ugly, cluttered mess and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near our transport system.

    Very, very much disagree with that. Its a timeless logotype and had it stayed on in use it'd be up there with the roundel for memorability.

    I had always assumed it'd get resurrected for a TfD because theres people down to my age and younger that remember it due to Kelloggs Cornflakes offers (it was on the carriages that looked nothing like the Park Royals/Laminates but were meant to be in their little tiny trainsets). Its very recognisable.


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    #240
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    Yixian wrote: »
    How about having Transport for Dublin as the over-arching brand for Dublin metropolitan transport, with the LUAS, Metro and buses being the 3 components of it.

    Combining these 3 services you could get pretty much anywhere you wanted very easily and pretty quickly.

    2lny0er.gif

    These "Transport for Dublin" people really need to step up to make it happen though.

    tbh i think there is a bit too much info on that. It needs to be simpler IMO. Let me get my virtual crayons out and ill come back

    EDIT - My crayons didn't go so well. just looking at it again, i think i'd actually be fine if you got rid of the Metro explanation, for lack of a better word.


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    #241
    Yixian
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭Yixian


    dannym08 wrote: »
    tbh i think there is a bit too much info on that. It needs to be simpler IMO. Let me get my virtual crayons out and ill come back

    EDIT - My crayons didn't go so well. just looking at it again, i think i'd actually be fine if you got rid of the Metro explanation, for lack of a better word.

    DART, MN and Dart Underground could all be rebranded as he "Dublin Metro", with the regular DART services perhaps retaining "DART" as a subtitle, in the way that the Docklands Light Railway in London do?


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