DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

noelfirl wrote: »

I think we all need to take a step back here and stop presuming the general populus to be entirely retarded. Having three sub-brands isn't that confusing, more to the fact some single re-brand is likely to manifest itself in the typically ridiculous Irish fashion of going out and spraying everything a unified colour scheme, then trumpeting it as an example of our integrated thinking, when it's really naught but a big waste of money that could have done well elsewhere.

It isn't that the public is retarded, it is that the general commuter couldn't care less about the width of the gauge or the weight of the train.

It is only train spotters who generally care about such things. To most ordinary commuters they are all just a way of getting from A to B.

Of course I agree that it shouldn't just be a branding exercise, it needs to be a part of a larger overarching integration of services:

- Single overarching control organisation.
- Truly integrated single smart card ticketing.
- Shared ticket machines across all services.
- Shared maps across all services.
- Single website for ticketing and routing information.
- Most importantly integrated timetables between services and cooperation when they are delays.

The branding would jsut be the most visual manifestation of this integration.

Yixian

noelfirl wrote: »

On a personal opinion, I've always thought that over this end of the world, Metro is more associated with a type of heavy rail transport, rather then an over-arching brand system as it is in several American cities (with the obvious exception of Belfast). I'd personally go more for a much more simple rebranding (most prominently on the PROPERLY integrated multi-modal tickets) of retaining the three sub-brands, prefixed on major signage and maybe on the sides of vehicles by a memorable symbol or abbreviation like Tfl, RATP, TMB, BVG etc.

Why would a school kid getting from home to college, or a businessman from home to work, or a tourist from the airport to their hotel, care about the distinctions between heavy and light rail?

The choice is between

"take Metro North from the airport to St Stephen's Green, then switch to the underground DART 2 line, take this to Heuston station and switch to Luas red line and take that to your hotel in Rialto"

and

"Take the Metro from the Airport to Rialto, changing at St Stephens Green and Heuston"

or even just

"Take the Metro to Heuston and from there the Luas to Rialto"

It would be a huge failure if they don't unify the branding..

D.L.R.

London has the underground, suburban rail, trams and the new 'overground' brand. And crossrail will no doubt appear on future maps. Many lines don't appear at all on the average tube map.

Paris has the Metro and the RER.

Berlin has the U Bahn, S Bahn and Strassenbahn.

Other cities have newer "Metro" lines and older suburban rail lines, just like Dublin will have. They don't rename the suburban lines "Metro". In fact, given our penchant for gimmicky Gaelic names, maybe we won't get a 'Metro' at all, but some vague term that relates to greased lightning or aeroplanes.

Once they all appear clearly on a concise map, thats all that matters.

munchkin_utd

i dunno.

Munich just was judged to have the best public transport system in the world and it does not run under a central common brand amongst all modes.

What is more important is that a transport system is unified, in timetables and information etc, not the colour of the paintwork on the vehicles.

(A note though is that all busses in munich DO have a common colour scheme whether ran by a private operator or the city Corporation. Theres over a dozen operators so thats a good thing!!)

Yixian

munchkin_utd wrote: »

i dunno.

Munich just was judged to have the best public transport system in the world and it does not run under a central common brand amongst all modes.

What is more important is that a transport system is unified, in timetables and information etc, not the colour of the paintwork on the vehicles.

(A note though is that all busses in munich DO have a common colour scheme whether ran by a private operator or the city Corporation. Theres over a dozen operators so thats a good thing!!)

Oh I don't mean to say that every train and station should look the same, it doesn't really matter what the appearance of an MN train is compared to the trains going through the Interconnector etc.

Like you say, it's the timetables, maps, info, smartcards etc. that all must be unified.

And the entire thing should be able to be referred to as a single, unified service, so that MN and DARTu etc. are all lines of this services, rather than all separate services.



So that when you're walking down the street and you're looking to get onto this transport network, you need only look for one, iconic logo. It shouldn't be the case that when you're on the northside you're looking for a Metro North logo and when you're on the southside, a DART logo, when they will both be effectively part of the same integrated network.



In London this would be like calling the Northern line the "London Metro" and Bakerloo line the "London Underground" and looking for two different symbols depending on where you are in the city.

Not smart.

bk

I would argue that London, Paris and Berlin are still stuck in the slightly old mind set and continue to sub brand for historical reasons (e.g. London Underground and London Bus are a big tourist attraction.)

Also they have very extensive networks with a lot of overlaps, where you might actually want to know the difference.

Here in Dublin I think we can do it better. We don't really have much of a history of public transport lines and we are a relatively small city that is building a new network with very little overlap, so it makes sense for across service branding. Just like you get in similar sized cities, with new public transport infrastructure in the US.

I've yet to hear a single valid reason why your average commuter needs to know they are taking Dart Versus Metro North?

However I can think of many reasons why it would be preferable to integrate their branding.

Yixian

And even the different branding in London revolves around the same theme. The bus stop logos look very similar to the Underground logo, DLR etc.

I'm sure if London was in Dublin's position now they'd want to go the whole hog.

Simplicity is the key to public transport.

As far as a resident or tourist is concerned, DARTu, MN and Luas are all rail based services supplying the Dublin Metropolitan Area. Why think of them as entirely different services when it's easier to think of them as different lines of the same service, that way everything is unified in the mind of a traveller. Wherever you are, you simply enter a station on this network and you don't have to leave that network until you've gotten to your destination, even if it means "changing lines" along the way.

bk

munchkin_utd wrote: »

What is more important is that a transport system is unified, in timetables and information etc, not the colour of the paintwork on the vehicles.

I agree that this re-branding should be the last step, not the first step.

Once we have proper integrated ticketing and integrated schedules, only then should this branding be launched, along with a single web site for all services, integrated maps and spider maps, etc.

It should be the opportunity to tell the people of Dublin that we are breaking away from the old rotten days of non integrated services and into a new era of modern, efficient, integrated services.

Of course we need to make sure these services are modern, efficient and integrated first.

Yixian

bk wrote: »

I agree that this re-branding should be the last step, not the first step.

Once we have proper integrated ticketing and integrated schedules, only then should this branding be launched, along with a single web site for all services, integrated maps and spider maps, etc.

It should be the opportunity to tell the people of Dublin that we are breaking away from the old rotten days of non integrated services and into a new area of modern, efficient, integrated services.

Of course we need to make sure these services are modern, efficient and integrated first.

Agreed.

bk

Yixian wrote: »

And even the different branding in London revolves around the same theme. The bus stop logos look very similar to the Underground logo, DLR etc.

Yup and the reason they separate them out in London, is because London Bus and London Underground are tourist attractions.

Also London has a massive network, London Underground has 11 lines, you couldn't fit them all on one map.

We might end up with just two Dart Lines, two Luas lines (maybe a third at some stage) and two Metro lines (if we are lucky).

Do people really suggest we have three separate maps with just two lines on each map and three websites?

Wouldn't it be better to have one map with all 6 to 7 lines on it and one website to go to to get time tables, etc.?

What are you going to call this integrated map and website? Dublin Metro perhaps?

And then wouldn't it be confusing if a tourist went looking for the Metro station only to find a Luas or Dart station? Sorry guys it just makes no sense.

Most importantly I have yet to hear one single good reason why you should keep the branding separate (and no Munich does it isn't a reason)?

BluntGuy

bk wrote: »

Why should a general commuter care less if the train thingy they take is narrow gauge or wide gauge, it is just a means of getting from A to B for them.

Tram is very different to heavy rail, one is more spacious, one is (typically) higher frequency, so people may want to have a distinction.

The idea of an over-arching brand for Dublin is one that I agree with, and there should be a logo common to all forms of public transport. But I don't see sub-brands as a bad thing... like I said, my MetroDART, MetroLuas, MetroBus and MetroBikes idea would be the best of both.

The "Metro" immediately tells you it's a transport system - and gives you a systemwide branding - and the DART, Luas, Bus or Bike designation immediately tells you the type of transport - tram, rail, bus or bike. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that. It also allows you to keep the quirky Irish "Luas" and familiar "DART" brand in tact that people have become familiar with. If you wanted to be even more direct, you could just use MetroTram and MetroRail as brands.

I do agree that a standardized map, fares, integrated schedules, integrated travel zones and a common website is needed.

Yixian

bk wrote: »

We might end up with just two Dart Lines, two Luas lines (maybe a third at some stage) and two Metro lines (if we are lucky).

Don't forget the Liffey cable cars! xD

Yixian

BluntGuy wrote: »

The idea of an over-arching brand for Dublin is one that I agree with, and there should be a logo common to all forms of public transport. But I don't see sub-brands as a bad thing... like I said, my MetroDART, MetroLuas, MetroBus and MetroBikes idea would be the best of both.
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Hmm.. but what would Metro North be? MetroMetro? And in 2020 or whatever we'd have a MetroMetroWest too boot?

Keep the DART, Luas and Metro North branding on the trains and in the station perhaps, but use Dublin Metro as the ultimate brand for the whole system, imo.

BluntGuy

Yixian wrote: »

Hmm.. but what would Metro North be? MetroMetro? And in 2020 or whatever we'd have a MetroMetroWest too boot?

Keep the DART, Luas and Metro North branding on the trains and in the station perhaps, but use Dublin Metro as the ultimate brand for the whole system, imo.

Metro North and Metro West don't need a seperate brand.

MN can be part of the DART sub-brand as it's closer to heavy rail and MW can be part of LUAS sub-brand for the time being as it's closer to tram. Problem solved.

bk

BluntGuy wrote: »

Tram is very different to heavy rail, one is more spacious, one is (typically) higher frequency, so people may want to have a distinction.

You see this is where I think the resistance to this idea is coming from. I think some people around here are still divided about the old CIE versus RPA and LUAS versus Metro arguments that some people like so much. Which really only enthusiasts care about, the general public certainly doesn't care.

Isn't it ironic that our trams are vastly higher frequency then our heavy rail. Also more spacious doesn't matter, a packed dart is just as uncomfortable as a packed Luas.

Also given the very high spec of our trams in terms of size and speed, in particular on the segregated green luas line, there really isn't that big a difference over Metro lines in many small European cities.

And you still haven't given me a single good reason why a general commuter would care about the difference?

How would knowing the difference make their commute easier?

And making the commute easier is the main goal here, something far to often forgotten here in Ireland by people who work in the public transport industry.

bk

BluntGuy wrote: »

MN can be part of the DART sub-brand as it's closer to heavy rail and MW can be part of LUAS sub-brand for the time being as it's closer to tram. Problem solved.

Absolutely dreadful idea IMO, doesn't help commuters at all.

Again why would a commuter care if it is heavy rail or light rail?

etchyed

bk wrote: »

Yup and the reason they separate them out in London, is because London Bus and London Underground are tourist attractions.

No, that's not the reason. They're separate because they're different modes of transport. But their branding is closely tied together and it's quite clear they're all part of the same network

Also London has a massive network, London Underground has 11 lines, you couldn't fit them all on one map.

They are all on one map, along with DLR and London Overground

Do people really suggest we have three separate maps with just two lines on each map and three websites?

Absolutely no one suggests that.

Wouldn't it be better to have one map with all 6 to 7 lines on it and one website to go to to get time tables, etc.?

Absolutely, but that doesn't go hand in hand with one name for every form of transport

What are you going to call this integrated map and website? Dublin Metro perhaps?

Actually I think Dublin Metro is an horrendous name to slap on everything. As noelfirl has pointed out, the word Metro is associated in Europe primarily with segregated mass transit rail systems, NOT with buses or with frequent rail services on the mainline (our DART) or with trams that frequently cross traffic (Luas red line).

And then wouldn't it be confusing if a tourist went looking for the Metro station only to find a Luas or Dart station? Sorry guys it just makes no sense.

Not if the line was referred to as Luas Red or DART 1 on their integrated Dublin Transport map.

Most importantly I have yet to hear one single good reason why you should keep the branding separate (and no Munich does it isn't a reason)?

You're right, "Munich does it" isn't a reason. But it's evidence that it can work perfectly well. Tourists come back from Germany gushing about how well the public transport works, not saying they found the different names confusing.

BluntGuy

bk wrote: »

And you still haven't given me a single good reason why a general commuter would care about the difference?

How would knowing the difference make their commute easier?

But why not have a distinction between tram and rail?

The difference in fare might be one, the difference in speed, the disabled access might be an issue (trams are much easier to get on and off) and some people might just want to know, for whatever reason they have. I know when I go to London, I certainly want to know whether I'm getting on a train or a tram, I don't care what the gauge it is, what rolling stock is used, I just want to know what I'm getting. I want to know if I'll have more or less space for my shopping etc.

It may or may not make their commune easier, but why deny them this knowledge when it can easily be given without confusing people.

bk wrote: »

Absolutely dreadful idea IMO, doesn't help commuters at all.

Again why would a commuter care if it is heavy rail or light rail?

So you propose just changing absolutely everything to Metro and getting rid of brands that are familiar to Dubliners and have become familiar to regular visitors.

This is an atrocious idea given there is no logical reason to do it. Why shouldn't a commuter know if they're getting a tram or a train? You argue they might not care, maybe so. But it doesn't mean you don't provide the information for those who might want to know. It will all be part of the unified "Metro" brand anyway. The sub-brands just provide a little extra information that may be of relevance to some people (for example, someone living in Bray might prefer to take a tram to St.Stephen's Green, or might opt for the train option instead). It isn't confusing in the least and provides all the information you could possibly reasonably want.

Why shouldn't you provide this information given that it is proven not to confuse people in other cities with similar sub-branding?

mysterious

They are still talking about this.:rolleyes:

Why can't they build it.

How many more years can we predict that this will be discussed. In Ireland we talk to much about things we are planning on doing, its why we get nothing done.:D

noelfirl

Yixian wrote: »

The choice is between

"take Metro North from the airport to St Stephen's Green, then switch to the underground DART 2 line, take this to Heuston station and switch to Luas red line and take that to your hotel in Rialto"

and

"Take the Metro from the Airport to Rialto, changing at St Stephens Green and Heuston"

It's arguably the former, because it's more descriptive. It's a signficant mode change to come out at Heuston, go above ground and change to a non-metro grade tram. Maybe it's just me but I think it's a bit of codology to call a non-grade seperated tram a "Metro" especially when, as I've said before, Metro is typically interpreted as grade-seperated, fast, frequent heavy rail.

or even just

"Take the Metro to Heuston and from there the Luas to Rialto"

Getting better, and I can't say I'm hugely opposed to merging DART and Metro North, I just can't see the huge benefit by doing so.

It would be a huge failure if they don't unify the branding..

No, it really wouldn't. It wouldn't even be an inconvenience to a tourist sporting a map and an integrated ticket, because those are not dependent on a unified single brand.

Of course I agree that it shouldn't just be a branding exercise, it needs to be a part of a larger overarching integration of services:

- Single overarching control organisation.
- Truly integrated single smart card ticketing.
- Shared ticket machines across all services.
- Shared maps across all services.
- Single website for ticketing and routing information.
- Most importantly integrated timetables between services and cooperation when they are delays.

The branding would jsut be the most visual manifestation of this integration.

All excellent proposals (and one would presume some will be applied) but not dependent on a one-size-fits-all single word brand across all modes of transit.

etchyed

mysterious wrote: »

They are still talking about this.:rolleyes:

Why can't they build it.

How many more years can we predict that this will be discussed. In Ireland we talk to much about things we are planning on doing, its why we get nothing done.:D

A point you have made what has to be hundreds of times now. Unless you have something new to add could you please give it up with the moaning and rolleyes.

If you actually bother to read what's going on, you'll find out that the planning application has been delayed by An Bord Pleanála. If you want something to complain about, read up on the specifics before doing so, instead of just blaming an ethereal "they".

Aard

Why does there have to be names at all?


In Brussels, everything - bus, tram, premetro, metro - has a number. The pre/metro has single-digits, the trams and busses share double digits. And all the lines have their own colour.


No need for Metro/Dart/Luas/Bus subdivisions here - just give all the rail a single-digit, and all the buses double-digits. Some fancy colours too. Administratively, they can call it whatever they like, but for the commuters and tourists a simple colour/number combo would be simplest.

GerardKeating

markpb wrote: »

Dart, Metro North and Luas only operate in Dublin country (ignoring the administrative break-up into four counties) so they could and should operate under a single brand.

Bray/Greystones is in Wicklow and Leixlip/Maynooth is in Kildare.

Aard

Not to mention Dunboyne etc in Meath.

dowlingm

In Vancouver, the Canada Line (1435mm EMU light metro) and the previously built Expo and Millennium lines (1435mm linear induction motor light metro) are all under the Skytrain brand.

Yixian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vancouver_Skytrain_Rupert_station_train.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canada_Line_001.jpg

Look familiar? :P

MJohnston

No need for expensive rebranding, they can just give me two grand for this



Doing this made me think of something, why does any transport option that wants to be accessible to everyone use a colour coding system? Surely a bit obtrusive to the many colour blind.

Victor

MJohnston wrote: »

Doing this made me think of something, why does any transport option that wants to be accessible to everyone use a colour coding system? Surely a bit obtrusive to the many colour blind.

Maybe this is why the core colour they use is navy, so you never have a red-green contrast that can be confused.

BluntGuy

MJohnston wrote: »

No need for expensive rebranding, they can just give me two grand for this



Doing this made me think of something, why does any transport option that wants to be accessible to everyone use a colour coding system? Surely a bit obtrusive to the many colour blind.

Something along those lines would be great.

But the "Metro" distinction is really not needed.

Metro North can be a DART line, Metro West can be a Luas line.

However, seeing as how they'll probably want to use the Metro branding, this is the best we could probably ask for.

Also, DART Underground isn't a seperate line, there'll simply be two DART lines. Maynooth/Pace <--> Bray, and Hazelhatch <--> Howth/Malahide (containing the underground section).

jum4

tfl have a rail and underground map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf now that oyster has been integrated across all London rail operators. (also includes DLR & tram) This is a big improvemnt over what was in place before.

I aggree with BKs comments.

- One brand for all
- One website with route planners, tickets, closure notices etc. at dublinmetro.ie or just metro.ie
- One ticket smartcard branded Dublin Metro
- One map with all Dublin Metro lines