DART+ (DART Expansion)

G_R

Yixian wrote: »

DART, MN and Dart Underground could all be rebranded as he "Dublin Metro", with the regular DART services perhaps retaining "DART" as a subtitle, in the way that the Docklands Light Railway in London do?

Yeah I think that DART should be used for all the DART, DART Underground and Metro services in the city. I mean it stands for "Dublin Area Rapid Transport". Forget having Metro North and Metro south. Just have DART Line x, DART Line y... I know they aren't the same kind of train (Metro is Light Rail, DART is Heavy) but 95% of passengers wont know that and so long as they all look the same (same logo, same colour etc) there is no reason I see that they couldn't all be branded as one.

Yixian

dannym08 wrote: »

Yeah I think that DART should be used for all the DART, DART Underground and Metro services in the city. I mean it stands for "Dublin Area Rapid Transport". Forget having Metro North and Metro south. Just have DART Line x, DART Line y... I know they aren't the same kind of train (Metro is Light Rail, DART is Heavy) but 95% of passengers wont know that and so long as they all look the same (same logo, same colour etc) there is no reason I see that they couldn't all be branded as one.

I can't deny that makes sense, I just personally don't like the name "DART" that much, particularly for a subway. It works though, for sure.

"Dublin Metro" has the benefit of immediate recognition of it's purpose to tourists though, I'm pretty sure everyone in the world would instantly know the function of a "Dublin Metro" upon hearing the word, and I can imagine a visitor first arriving in the city asking at a help desk "excuse me, where can I find the nearest metro station?", assuming Dublin had one, assuming it'd be called something like that.

Also for the line names, something more imaginative that "DART Line x" etc. would be nice.

Even just "Southside line" and "Northern line" for DARTu and MN respectively would do.

G_R

Yixian wrote: »

I can't deny that makes sense, I just personally don't like the name "DART" that much, particularly for a subway. It works though, for sure.

"Dublin Metro" has the benefit of immediate recognition of it's purpose to tourists though, I'm pretty sure everyone in the world would instantly know the function of a "Dublin Metro" upon hearing the word, and I can imagine a visitor first arriving in the city asking at a help desk "excuse me, where can I find the nearest metro station?", assuming Dublin had one, assuming it'd be called something like that.

Well if it was to be all named Dublin Metro, then I wouldn't, as you suggested, have DART as a sub-name on the existing DART trains. All would be just "Dublin Metro"

I only suggested that it be DART because it already exists, but Dublin Metro does sound better and as you pointed out it would make it a lot easier for tourists.

TBH, I'm not to fussed what it gets called, just so long as it is all the same name and all run by the same Agency to ensure timetables flow properly and proper connections are available etc.

Yixian

dannym08 wrote: »

Well if it was to be all named Dublin Metro, then I wouldn't, as you suggested, have DART as a sub-name on the existing DART trains. All would be just "Dublin Metro"

I only suggested that it be DART because it already exists, but Dublin Metro does sound better and as you pointed out it would make it a lot easier for tourists.

TBH, I'm not to fussed what it gets called, just so long as it is all the same name and all run by the same Agency to ensure timetables flow properly and proper connections are available etc.

Agreed, I just hope TfD or whatever that agency will be aren't the weakest link..

BluntGuy

I would keep DART and LUAS as the primary brand-names. Yes, have them come under the umbrella of a Dublin Metro, perhaps even use the same logo for them, but maintaining the existing branding that people have become accustomed too is a good idea.

DART - DART #1, DART #2 and Metro North

LUAS - Luas Green, Luas Red and Metro West (it's a luas... c'mon).

G_R

BluntGuy wrote: »

I would keep DART and LUAS as the primary brand-names. Yes, have them come under the umbrella of a Dublin Metro, perhaps even use the same logo for them, but maintaining the existing branding that people have become accustomed too is a good idea.

DART - DART #1, DART #2 and Metro North

LUAS - Luas Green, Luas Red and Metro West (it's a luas... c'mon).

Would you call Metro North "Metro North", or "DART #3"

Similarly, would Metro West be " Metro West" or LUAS Blue

I think three diff names is too much tbh

Typewriter

BluntGuy wrote: »

That thing's an ugly, cluttered mess and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near our transport system.

Something simple, maybe just some kind of nice arrow, which could then have "DART", "LUAS" or "Bus" put on top of it.

:eek:

BluntGuy

dannym08 wrote: »

Would you call Metro North "Metro North", or "DART #3"

Similarly, would Metro West be " Metro West" or LUAS Blue

I think three diff names is too much tbh

Well I think a consistent color code would be a good start.

Under the "LUAS" brand:

LUAS Green (represented by a green line on a map)
LUAS Red (represented by a red line)
LUAS Blue [Metro West] (represented by a blue line)

Under the "DART" brand:

DART <A> [Line 1] (repesented by an orange line)
DART <B> [Line 2] (represented by a yellow line)
DART <C> [Metro North] (represented by a brown line)

etchyed

Yixian wrote: »

Agreed, I just hope TfD or whatever that agency will be aren't the weakest link..

Sorry, there is no such thing as TfD. Transportfordublin.ie is just a website set up by the Transport21 project office in Dublin City Council. It is a token gesture from DCC to tick boxes in the pretty poor implementation of the College Green bus corridor.

The agency responsible for providing integrated transport information for Dublin is the National Transport Authority. I would hope that they eventually get around to creating some form of overarching Dublin Transport brand but I think in reality it is extremely unlikely that Iarnród Éireann, the RPA and Veolia will ever be told how to brand their services.

BluntGuy

etchyed wrote: »

The agency responsible for providing integrated transport information for Dublin is the National Transport Authority. I would hope that they eventually get around to creating some form of overarching Dublin Transport brand but I think in reality it is extremely unlikely that Iarnród Éireann, the RPA and Veolia will ever be told how to brand their services.

Which is such a shame, because should DART Underground and Metro North go ahead, along with integrated ticketing, the development of QBCs and the Luas extensions, Dublin's public transport wouldn't be all that bad.

Confusing or unnecessary branding should be avaoided. "Metro" as a seperate brand to DART and LUAS needs to be scrapped, as a design-concept, it's grand, but as a brand it doesn't work. "Metro North" either needs to be LUAS or DART. I would recommend DART as it's closer to a DART than a LUAS for the most part in many respects (fully segregated, higher-capacity etc.)

G_R

etchyed wrote: »

Sorry, there is no such thing as TfD. Transportfordublin.ie is just a website set up by the Transport21 project office in Dublin City Council. It is a token gesture from DCC to tick boxes in the pretty poor implementation of the College Green bus corridor.

The agency responsible for providing integrated transport information for Dublin is the National Transport Authority. I would hope that they eventually get around to creating some form of overarching Dublin Transport brand but I think in reality it is extremely unlikely that Iarnród Éireann, the RPA and Veolia will ever be told how to brand their services.

we can live in hope

G_R

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well I think a consistent color code would be a good start.

Under the "LUAS" brand:

LUAS Green (represented by a green line on a map)
LUAS Red (represented by a red line)
LUAS Blue [Metro West] (represented by a blue line)

Under the "DART" brand:

DART <A> [Line 1] (repesented by an orange line)
DART <B> [Line 2] (represented by a yellow line)
DART <C> [Metro North] (represented by a brown line)

That would be an ideal situation, but as etchyed pointed out, it prob wont happen.

Victor

BluntGuy wrote: »

LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS LUAS

Its "Luas". Its a word, not an acronym.

BluntGuy

Victor wrote: »

Its "Luas". Its a word, not an acronym.

Aye, that's true and a bitingly ironic word at that, not that the "rapid" in DART holds much credence either.

It just feels natural to type LUAS in capitals when it comes to discussing this.

etchyed

BluntGuy wrote: »

Confusing or unnecessary branding should be avaoided. "Metro" as a seperate brand to DART and LUAS needs to be scrapped, as a design-concept, it's grand, but as a brand it doesn't work. "Metro North" either needs to be LUAS or DART. I would recommend DART as it's closer to a DART than a LUAS for the most part in many respects (fully segregated, higher-capacity etc.)

I agree with you on that. It would be great to have Metro North branded as DART. But the brand name belongs to Irish Rail. Obviously this really shouldn't be an issue but unfortunately it quite conceivably could be. Dependent on how much power the NTA decides to wield, it could just tell Irish Rail to hand over its trademark and shut up. But I can't see them bothering, to be honest.

As I said, I don't think it's really a problem. If the NTA is responsible for provision of information (and if they do a good job) the brand will be Dublin Transport and the map the tourist picks up in the airport will be called Rail Network Map. At that stage the logo on the side of the trains/trams/LRVs doesn't really matter. Different operators and different sub-brands are not a problem in Germany: U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Strassenbahn, Metrobus, Metrotram etc. It all works together well because the information provided is clear.

BluntGuy

etchyed wrote: »

I agree with you on that. It would be great to have Metro North branded as DART. But the brand name belongs to Irish Rail. Obviously this really shouldn't be an issue but unfortunately it quite conceivably could be. Dependent on how much power the NTA decides to wield, it could just tell Irish Rail to hand over its trademark and shut up. But I can't see them bothering, to be honest.

As I said, I don't think it's really a problem. If the NTA is responsible for provision of information (and if they do a good job) the brand will be Dublin Transport and the map the tourist picks up in the airport will be called Rail Network Map. At that stage the logo on the side of the trains/trams/LRVs doesn't really matter. Different operators and different sub-brands are not a problem in Germany: U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Strassenbahn, Metrobus, Metrotram etc. It all works together well because the information provided is clear.

Well hopefully a standard rail map showing all the Luas, Metro and DART lines will become widespread - as the London Underground map is over in London. Information such as operating times, standard fares, travel zones (another concept that should be standardized) would also be provided.

This is not brain-taxing stuff, but you can bet it won't happen.

G_R

etchyed wrote: »

I agree with you on that. It would be great to have Metro North branded as DART. But the brand name belongs to Irish Rail. Obviously this really shouldn't be an issue but unfortunately it quite conceivably could be. Dependent on how much power the NTA decides to wield, it could just tell Irish Rail to hand over its trademark and shut up. But I can't see them bothering, to be honest.

As I said, I don't think it's really a problem. If the NTA is responsible for provision of information (and if they do a good job) the brand will be Dublin Transport and the map the tourist picks up in the airport will be called Rail Network Map. At that stage the logo on the side of the trains/trams/LRVs doesn't really matter. Different operators and different sub-brands are not a problem in Germany: U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Strassenbahn, Metrobus, Metrotram etc. It all works together well because the information provided is clear.

Theoretically it could work fine. I hate to be doing the whole stereotype "Irish transport operators couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" thing, but going by their track record, they really cant be trusted to do the simplest of tasks, never mind making a useful map

BluntGuy

dannym08 wrote: »

Theoretically it could work fine. I hate to be doing the whole stereotype "Irish transport operators couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" thing, but going by their track record, they really cant be trusted to do the simplest of tasks, never mind making a useful map

Which is exactly why we do need a "Transport for Dublin" or an overarching "Dublin Metro" idea. The RPA and IE are too busy trying to one-up each other on their inadequate service provision, instead of working together to create a better more integrated service. There is never the impression given that there is any joined-up thinking, and the evidence on the ground proves this.

There is no single, useful standardized map for Dublin transport, and while, okay, the transport options up til now have hardly justified it, when Dublin finally has some sort of network, this will be unacceptable. Transport for Dublin can't just be a body which makes "recommendations" and hands out leaflets, they need to be a body with some actual authority, made up of transport experts (and not the McGuckian type) with a clear intent and focus.

If the national transport authority is anything to go by though, it'll just be a collection of political appointees, a body with no clear objective, that'll quickly become another ineffectual quango. (Okay, perhaps it's a bit too early to judge the NTA, but I have my doubts about them).

etchyed

BluntGuy wrote: »

If the national transport authority is anything to go by though, it'll just be a collection of political appointees, a body with no clear objective, that'll quickly become another ineffectual quango. (Okay, perhaps it's a bit too early to judge the NTA, but I have my doubts about them).

If there's one thing that gives me hope about the NTA it's that their website clearly delineates their role nationally from that in the GDA.

NTA website wrote:

Nationally

• licensing bus routes
• entering into contracts for the provision of public transport services
• providing funding for specified bus and rail travel services that are considered necessary for economic or social reasons

Greater Dublin Area

• preparation and regular review of a transportation strategy
• adoption of an integrated implementation plan and a strategic traffic management plan
• financing the construction of public transport infrastructure
• promoting an integrated public transport network
• implementing integrated ticketing, fares and information schemes
• regulating fares and encouraging increased public transport use

If the organisational structure reflects this distinction then we can hope for some sort of effectiveness. On the other hand if public service contracts and bus licensing for the Dublin area are handled on a national level that's very disappointing.

murphaph

Always thought the Dublin Bus logo which incorporates the company's initials (db) under a castle tower (Dublin's crest is of course made up of 3 castle towers with fires atop) was a fine example.



Something along those lines would work for me.

Yixian

etchyed wrote: »

Sorry, there is no such thing as TfD. Transportfordublin.ie is just a website set up by the Transport21 project office in Dublin City Council. It is a token gesture from DCC to tick boxes in the pretty poor implementation of the College Green bus corridor.

The agency responsible for providing integrated transport information for Dublin is the National Transport Authority. I would hope that they eventually get around to creating some form of overarching Dublin Transport brand but I think in reality it is extremely unlikely that Iarnród Éireann, the RPA and Veolia will ever be told how to brand their services.

The current TfD website is supposedly just a placeholder for a future service.

Perhaps when the Mayor is elected he/she'll take over the thing.

bk

I'd just call everything Dublin Metro.

DART, LUAS and Metro all just called Dublin Metro

Dublin Bus called Dublin Metro Bus
Dublin Bikes called Dublin Metro Bikes

There really isn't any point in sub-branding DART, LUAS and Metro. Transport users couldn't care less, they just want to get from A to B. Once integrated ticketing is in place, we shouldn't want to confuse travelers with various different brands which are completely irrelevant to them.

- One brand for all
- One website with route planners, tickets, closure notices etc. at dublinmetro.ie or just metro.ie
- One ticket smartcard branded Dublin Metro
- One map with all Dublin Metro lines

BTW I always assumed DART Underground was just a project name and that in the end it will just be called DART.

markpb

bk wrote: »

BTW I always assumed DART Underground was just a project name and that in the end it will just be called DART.

IIRC the plan is just to call them Dart 1 and Dart 2 - the underground bit is incidental.

Yixian

bk wrote: »

I'd just call everything Dublin Metro.

DART, LUAS and Metro all just called Dublin Metro

Dublin Bus called Dublin Metro Bus
Dublin Bikes called Dublin Metro Bikes

There really isn't any point in sub-branding DART, LUAS and Metro. Transport users couldn't care less, they just want to get from A to B. Once integrated ticketing is in place, we shouldn't want to confuse travelers with various different brands which are completely irrelevant to them.

- One brand for all
- One website with route planners, tickets, closure notices etc. at dublinmetro.ie or just metro.ie
- One ticket smartcard branded Dublin Metro
- One map with all Dublin Metro lines

BTW I always assumed DART Underground was just a project name and that in the end it will just be called DART.

Complete and utter agreement ^

There are many parts of what we call Paris Metro and the London Underground that are above ground, the important point about these projets is not what Dublin had before, but what it will have - and from the perspective of the public that will be an underground subway system for Dublin that extends into the suburbs above ground.

It should be named as such, IMO.

And TfD should come to represent the Mayors office for Dublin transport when he/she is elected, and manage the whole thing with one map, one card, unified fares and a journey planner.

New Eco friendly buses would be a bonus but I won't push my luck xD

BluntGuy

Yixian wrote: »

There are many parts of what we call Paris Metro and the London Underground that are above ground, the important point about these projets is not what Dublin had before, but what it will have - and from the perspective of the public that will be an underground subway system for Dublin that extends into the suburbs above ground.

While I get the point, I still feel that the light rail trams need to be distinct from the segregated rail. After all, the trams that run in London (such as the Croydon tramline) aren't considered part of the underground. Yeah, they show up on the map, but they aren't part of it.

You could have MetroDART, MetroLuas, MetroBus and MetroBikes. That way they all fall under the "Dublin Metro" brand while at the same time, the type of service (heavy rail, light rail, bus etc.) is immediately made clear, plus the existing brands to which Dubliners have become accustomed, aren't lost. It's a win all round situation.

Theta

In alot of places it would be the other way around. The DART would be left on its own and the rest come under one roof.

Take the MUNI in San Francisco for example it includes the bus , metro and trams but connects to the BART but does not include it!

markpb

Theta wrote: »

Take the MUNI in San Francisco for example it includes the bus , metro and trams but connects to the BART but does not include it!

I think that's because BART operates outside of SF county boundary and is run by an inter-county agency. MUNI is owned and operated by the country of San Francisco. Similarly, LA DASH is operated by LA city, Metro is operated by LA country and inter-county services are operated by Amtrak.

Dart, Metro North and Luas only operate in Dublin country (ignoring the administrative break-up into four counties) so they could and should operate under a single brand.

Yixian

The individual stations and vehicles could have "DART" and "Luas" labelling on them, particularly Luas, but the main branding across the board should be unified eg. Dublin Metro.

So that you can correctly refer to the DART UNderground portion of the Metro as "DART Underground" if you want, just as you could refer to a single portion of the Paris Metro by the specific type of track or trains used on it, but that it is the "Dublin metro" that can get you wherever you need to go in the city, and every station, be it MN, DART u or even Luas too, is ultimately on the "Dublin Metro".

And so our version of this: http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/london-undergrouind-map.jpg

Will be this: http://transport21.ie/Maps/upload/Image/DrulinRailMapBG.jpg

Walk into any Metro station and you can pick up a "Dublin Metro" map like the one above, or sign up for the "Dublin Metro" integrated ticketing card etc.

noelfirl

I think we all need to take a step back here and stop presuming the general populus to be entirely retarded. Having three sub-brands isn't that confusing, more to the fact some single re-brand is likely to manifest itself in the typically ridiculous Irish fashion of going out and spraying everything a unified colour scheme, then trumpeting it as an example of our integrated thinking, when it's really naught but a big waste of money that could have done well elsewhere.

On a personal opinion, I've always thought that over this end of the world, Metro is more associated with a type of heavy rail transport, rather then an over-arching brand system as it is in several American cities (with the obvious exception of Belfast). I'd personally go more for a much more simple rebranding (most prominently on the PROPERLY integrated multi-modal tickets) of retaining the three sub-brands, prefixed on major signage and maybe on the sides of vehicles by a memorable symbol or abbreviation like Tfl, RATP, TMB, BVG etc.

bk

BluntGuy wrote: »

While I get the point, I still feel that the light rail trams need to be distinct from the segregated rail. After all, the trams that run in London (such as the Croydon tramline) aren't considered part of the underground. Yeah, they show up on the map, but they aren't part of it.

But why?

Why should a general commuter care less if the train thingy they take is narrow gauge or wide gauge, it is just a means of getting from A to B for them.

The only reason commuters need to know if they are taking the Luas or the Dart today is because of the ridiculous situation where they have to go to dart.ie if they want to get dart time tables and luas.ie if they want luas timetables and have to pull out a dart ticket at a dart station and a luas ticket at a luas station.

With true integrated ticketing and a single brand and website, this all becomes irrelevant to the traveler.

You might have a point where there was a lot of overlap between Metro/Dart and Luas lines, like in Prague, where a commuter might want to pick one over the other for speed. But that isn't the case for our planned network, there is very little overlap. Commuters will just have to take Metro/Dart/Luas based on their journey, so really no need to separate them out.

Imagine a tourist arriving at Dublin Airport who wants to get to Dundrum. He gets Metro North to Stephens Green and then gets on Luas Green to Dundrum. Does this tourist really care that one is a Metro while the other is a Tram? Either way it was still the quickest way to make the journey.