30 DC fast-charging points will be located on motorways by end 2011

ardmacha · 22-02-2010 9:44pm

Indeed there were Trolleybuses in Belfast in the 1960s, I heard a radio program with someone who noted that they were regarded as the apex of Irish public transport at the time, being smooth and quiet in operation. There is one in the Transport Museum in Cultra.

I don't think this idea would work for cars though! There was a guy on the radio today talking about the end of oil (over time). Perhaps overnight charging with rechangeable battery packs for longer trips will become the norm.,

yermanoffthetv · 23-02-2010 8:21pm

Honda Clarity hydrogen fuel cell car. I really do think they should be pushing these rather than electric car. Skip to about 3:40 minutes and they talk about the infastructure that goes with it.

Round Cable · 23-02-2010 9:47pm

cc wrote: »

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

I don't see a future for hydrogen. There are no existing hydrogen filling stations in Ireland. New storage tanks and 'pumps' still have to be built. Petrol and hydrogen filling stations are not comparable. The beauty of oil is the fact that it is an easily transportable liquid fuel. On the other hand, hydrogen is a gas, and the smallest molecule in existence. The gas has to be pressurised to be transported by road, and even then it takes several more trucks to transport than petrol. Transportation by pipeline is not viable for every filling station in the country, as the smallest gas molecule, is prone to leaks, and so can't be transported through natural gas pipelines, and requires completely new and hugely expensive dedicated hydrogen pipes.

In terms of efficiencies (and running costs), you need to use 3-4 times more electricity to electrolyse water, compress the gas, transport, and run through a fuel cell, than to charge 1 electric car (or plug-in hybrid), from an existing part of our infrastructure, the electricity grid. The use of plug-in hybrids requires absolutely no new infrastructure.

And the last point is the cost of fuel cells. While electric cars and plug-in hybrids, and indeed regular hybrids, are more expensive than traditional cars, battery prices are falling and with the inevitable oil price increases, they will be competitive with traditional cars. I doubt fuel cell hydrogen cars will ever take off, not in 10 years, not ever.

Chris_5339762 · 23-02-2010 10:00pm

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

cc · 23-02-2010 10:15pm

Round Cable wrote: »

I don't see a future for hydrogen. There are no existing hydrogen filling stations in Ireland. New storage tanks and 'pumps' still have to be built. Petrol and hydrogen filling stations are not comparable. The beauty of oil is the fact that it is an easily transportable liquid fuel. On the other hand, hydrogen is a gas, and the smallest molecule in existence. The gas has to be pressurised to be transported by road, and even then it takes several more trucks to transport than petrol. Transportation by pipeline is not viable for every filling station in the country, as the smallest gas molecule, is prone to leaks, and so can't be transported through natural gas pipelines, and requires completely new and hugely expensive dedicated hydrogen pipes.

In terms of efficiencies (and running costs), you need to use 3-4 times more electricity to electrolyse water, compress the gas, transport, and run through a fuel cell, than to charge 1 electric car (or plug-in hybrid), from an existing part of our infrastructure, the electricity grid. The use of plug-in hybrids requires absolutely no new infrastructure.

And the last point is the cost of fuel cells. While electric cars and plug-in hybrids, and indeed regular hybrids, are more expensive than traditional cars, battery prices are falling and with the inevitable oil price increases, they will be competitive with traditional cars. I doubt fuel cell hydrogen cars will ever take off, not in 10 years, not ever.

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

cc · 23-02-2010 10:17pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

true, but if i can fill up my petrol car now without fear of explosion i think i'll be ok filling up a hydrogen car

Round Cable · 23-02-2010 10:50pm

cc wrote: »

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

Plugging in a car to recharge a battery is every night isn't a huge change in behaviour, you don't even have to leave your home to go to a petrol station. For me I think money is more important. The consumer is faced with buying a plug-in hybrid or a fuel cell electric vehicle, the later has an upfront cost at least 10 times greater, followed by 8-10 times greater running cost. The fact that a multi billion euro infrastructure has to be built, compared to none with the plug-in hybrid scenario, means it's unlikely the consumer will get a choice at all.

Carawaystick · 24-02-2010 12:25am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

Isn't that the whole point of Otto cycle engines? the fuel explodes, unlike Diesel engines where it burns.

Round,
He molecules are smaller than H2 molecules, only one atom. heavier though.

Aidan1 · 24-02-2010 4:00pm

Plugging in a car to recharge a battery is every night isn't a huge change in behaviour

Exactly, particularly when charge points will be available practically everywhere you'd usually park your car, including on-street, multi storey, supermarkets, apartment car parks, not to mention the quick charge points at petrol stations and the MSAs. The electricity grid already exists, after all, and EVs allow us to get more renewable electricty onto the grid.

paulm17781 · 24-02-2010 4:24pm

The charge time will be the issue with EV. If they do battery swaps (at say pertrol stations). I think it will be a winner.

cc · 24-02-2010 4:34pm

for a pure electric car I can only see a use for them pretty much as they are now, city runarounds. To be able to drive hundreds of Km's would require a heavy beast of a car full of batteries. If I was driving from Cork to Belfast on the motorway I wouldn't fancy pulling over to recharge for an hour or so to top up. The plug-in petrol hybrid has no environmental merit whatsoever IMHO, like the Prius the amount of carbon needed to get one of these built is ridiculous and I don't think they should be encouraged as an environmental solution.

Round Cable · 24-02-2010 7:46pm

cc wrote: »

for a pure electric car I can only see a use for them pretty much as they are now, city runarounds. To be able to drive hundreds of Km's would require a heavy beast of a car full of batteries. If I was driving from Cork to Belfast on the motorway I wouldn't fancy pulling over to recharge for an hour or so to top up. The plug-in petrol hybrid has no environmental merit whatsoever IMHO, like the Prius the amount of carbon needed to get one of these built is ridiculous and I don't think they should be encouraged as an environmental solution.

On the first point, I agree, until battery range and costs are significantly lowered, combined with the availability of quick charge facilities, the pure electric car is a while away. However, plug-in hybrids have environmental merit as do hybrids. There was a story doing the rounds that a Hummer was greener than a Prius, in production terms. This has since been proven to be untrue. The Prius battery contains nickel, and mining it is dirty, however the nickel once extracted, can be recycled and reused indefinitely. No plug-in hybrid will use NiMH batteries, lighter lithium ion batteries are the focus, and no mining is required for lithium. Also the FCX Clarity and every hydrogen fuel cell veichle produced to date are hybrids, with the battery used to even fuel cell output and for regenerative braking.

spacetweek · 24-02-2010 8:04pm

crushproof wrote: »

Well, we already are the most car dependant country in the world!:rolleyes:

Ireland is the most car dependent country in the world. We drive our cars 24,400 kilometres per annum, 70pc more than in France or Germany, 50pc more than in Britain and 30pc more than in the US.
[HTML]http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2474920[/HTML]

Did you actually read that article? Especially the final paragraph.

It very clearly states the opposite.

spacetweek · 24-02-2010 8:12pm

Aidan1 wrote: »

Exactly, particularly when charge points will be available practically everywhere you'd usually park your car, including on-street, multi storey, supermarkets, apartment car parks, not to mention the quick charge points at petrol stations and the MSAs. The electricity grid already exists, after all, and EVs allow us to get more renewable electricty onto the grid.

Actually all those charge points would be a lot of infrastructure to have to provide.

I don't think we'll need them though, as in the future the range will be so high that you won't ever need to charge except outside your house.

Del2005 · 26-02-2010 1:35am

cc wrote: »

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

cc wrote: »

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

Hydrogen will only ever be viable when we have Fusion reactors and they are a long way off. There will also need to be a major redesign of car parks and peoples garages will all have to be modified

spacetweek wrote: »

Actually all those charge points would be a lot of infrastructure to have to provide.

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars. How much spare capacity have we now and what is the lead time for new power stations?

I don't think we'll need them though, as in the future the range will be so high that you won't ever need to charge except outside your house.

What if you don't own a house?

ardmacha · 26-02-2010 2:20am

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars.

battery charging might we suited to charging when there is surplus, either on windy days or at nights if there is nuclear base load.

What if you don't own a house?

Well if you live somewhere with no electricity you do have a problem.

Del2005 · 26-02-2010 4:40am

ardmacha wrote: »

battery charging might we suited to charging when there is surplus, either on windy days or at nights if there is nuclear base load.

Well if you live somewhere with no electricity you do have a problem.

The batteries won't be charged at night. They'll all be plugged in to charge between 17:00 and 19:00 when people come home from work as the batteries will take a long time to charge off a domestic supply. Very few if any will leave them to charge at night as what's the point in having a car outside the door if you can't use it when you want. There is no incentive for the vast majority of people to charge on nights as they get no discount and the larger standing charge for night rate won't make them change.

On the other hand if employers where encouraged to install charging points then the cars will be sitting for 8 hours where they won't be used. They could install higher power/smart chargers to even out the peaks in supply by taking a feed from the cars if needed and the cars can charge when there are dips. It would make it feasible for me to have an electric car as I've no access to power and I wouldn't like to leave hundreds of meters of wires easily available where I live even if I had.

spacetweek · 07-03-2010 2:33am

Here's how I see it panning out:
Cars will use batteries. They will last for weeks.
There will be one small removable one in the boot. The rest are inaccessible in the chassis.
There will not be any way of charging a car using domestic power supplies.

You will charge your car in a charging station - used to be petrol stations.
It will take around 1-2 mins. There will be no way to charge a car anywhere else. Charging stations will generate their own power so power loading on the grid won't be an issue.
If you get stuck away from a charging station with a flat battery, someone can lend you their removable one from their boot. Inserted in your car, this will allow you to limp to a station to get charged up again.

Advantages:
Driver behaviour won't have to change. You still take your car to a "refueling" place, where they "refuel" it.
The issue of having to undergo the massive job of retrofitting charging points everywhere won't occur.

Del2005 wrote: »

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars. How much spare capacity have we now and what is the lead time for new power stations?
What if you don't own a house?

Yes, it will. It will take time to build all these, but the cost won't be greater, as the power they generate for cars will displace lots of oil imports. Nations that mine their own oil have a problem though, as it's hard to justify no longer using the oil they already have.

If you don't own a house - then you have difficulties getting your car recharged. However, petrol cars have this issue too.

hi5 · 07-03-2010 11:37am

KevR wrote: »

I had a day dream a while back about electric cars. My idea was to have a pole (retractable) on top of all cars which could draw electricity from over-head wires, like electric trains here. The overhead wires would only be on certain busier roads and cars could use electricity to directly power the car and recharge its battery when on roads with overhead lines. People could also recharge their at home or wherever.

Of course we would have to ban trucks, buses...etc from using roads with the overhead lines and what would happen if someone snagged the power line with their bad driving? :pac:

EDIT: just thinking about it a little further...obviously the lines and pole from the car would need to be high enough so people couldn't grab it. Maybe just have the lines on long stretches of Motorway (already restrictions) and Dual Carriageways (change law to ban pedestrians/cyclists).

Thought I'd share my day dream even though it wouldn't be at all practical to implement.

Your daydreams are already at an advanced stage.think of an electric toothbrush crossed with scalextric.

The roads are embedded with electric coils,the magnetic part is in your car,so no actual contact.
http://www.citelec.org/eviac/default.htm#Objectives

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/02/korean-electric-car-gets-a-charge-an-induction-charge-from-t/

bkbk · 07-03-2010 5:12pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The batteries won't be charged at night. They'll all be plugged in to charge between 17:00 and 19:00 when people come home from work as the batteries will take a long time to charge off a domestic supply. Very few if any will leave them to charge at night as what's the point in having a car outside the door if you can't use it when you want. There is no incentive for the vast majority of people to charge on nights as they get no discount and the larger standing charge for night rate won't make them change.

That is easily solvable problem. Car chargers won't use home power supply plugs, they will use specially designed plugs specific to cars and with a much higher voltage. More importantly they will be smart plugs and it will probably cost you 10 times as much to charge between 5 and 7 as it would at night, therefore encouraging people to set their charger to only charge at night.

BTW interestingly, it has been estimated that you could convert 85% of all cars in the US to battery and have them charge overnight without needing to build any new power stations. The existing nightly slack power supply that is currently just wasted could be used.

IMO the transitional period to full electric will be covered by hybrids like the Chevy Volt. Basically the volt has both a battery that will get you 40 miles and a petrol tank that will get you an additional 300 miles. The idea being that the vast majority of daily commutes are under 40 miles and therefore charging over night should be perfectly fine for 90% of people. While you could switch to petrol for longer trips.

bkbk · 07-03-2010 5:15pm

hi5 wrote: »

Your daydreams are already at an advanced stage.think of an electric toothbrush crossed with scalextric.

The roads are embedded with electric coils,the magnetic part is in your car,so no actual contact.
http://www.citelec.org/eviac/default.htm#Objectives

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/02/korean-electric-car-gets-a-charge-an-induction-charge-from-t/

The problem with these sorts of systems is that they waste massive amounts of electricity sending power through the air, which kind of defeats the purpose. After all don't forget the electricity has to come from some where. In Ireland at the moment that is mostly coal and gas, with all their nasty emissions. Under such a plan we really would need to switch to Nuclear.

Del2005 · 07-03-2010 10:57pm

bkbk wrote: »

That is easily solvable problem. Car chargers won't use home power supply plugs, they will use specially designed plugs specific to cars and with a much higher voltage. More importantly they will be smart plugs and it will probably cost you 10 times as much to charge between 5 and 7 as it would at night, therefore encouraging people to set their charger to only charge at night.

BTW interestingly, it has been estimated that you could convert 85% of all cars in the US to battery and have them charge overnight without needing to build any new power stations. The existing nightly slack power supply that is currently just wasted could be used.

So how am I and millions of others supposed to charge our vehicles? I don't have access to an over night power point, work shift and can't leave a mat outside without it being stolen. Do you not think the next hot item to steal will be these unique cables? It may also require all new cables laid to houses as I doubt the standard used now would work.

Aidan1 · 07-03-2010 11:11pm

The current (!) domestic wiring systems are just fine for EV charging, at least for overnight charging for cars with batteries of the size being talked about (around 20-25kw) at present. That may change, but only if batteries suddenly get a lot larger.

There hasn't been a problem with people walking off with the leads elsewhere - once they're plugged in, they're effectively locked to the car and the charge point.

Del2005 · 07-03-2010 11:30pm

Aidan1 wrote: »

The current (!) domestic wiring systems are just fine for EV charging, at least for overnight charging for cars with batteries of the size being talked about (around 20-25kw) at present. That may change, but only if batteries suddenly get a lot larger.

I was asking about the high voltage system I'd quoted, if current cables are OK thanks.

There hasn't been a problem with people walking off with the leads elsewhere
- once they're plugged in, they're effectively locked to the car and the charge point.

And I'm sure when cars where 1st invented there wasn't much car theft. Once these cables become standard people will find ways to steal them. Some scumbag will discover there's several meters of high quality metal in each of them or someone will damage theirs and won't ask too many questions about getting it replaced. People will steal and it can't be stopped if there's easy money to be made.

Ben D Bus · 09-03-2010 12:03am

Del2005 wrote: »

And I'm sure when cars where 1st invented there wasn't much car theft. Once these cables become standard people will find ways to steal them. Some scumbag will discover there's several meters of high quality metal in each of them or someone will damage theirs and won't ask too many questions about getting it replaced. People will steal and it can't be stopped if there's easy money to be made.

Yeah! It'll be just like all those free Dublin bikes that everyone just KNEW would be stolen & wrecked in days :rolleyes:

Regarding new power stations & everyone charging up between 5-7pm, smart metering and appropriate pricing will ensure people will charge up at the most desirable times and no immediate need for additional generation. In fact, cars that are plugged in at peak times will be able to SUPPLY power to the grid FROM their batteries, further helping to balance supply & demand.

Del2005 · 09-03-2010 11:51am

You can only get a Dublin bike with a credit card or pre registering, different story about a length of cable lying on the ground. I like the ideal world idea of using car batteries as a load levelles but what happens when someone needs their car and the grid has taken their power.

spacetweek · 11-03-2010 1:46am

Del2005 wrote: »

You can only get a Dublin bike with a credit card or pre registering, different story about a length of cable lying on the ground. I like the ideal world idea of using car batteries as a load levelles but what happens when someone needs their car and the grid has taken their power.

Yea I can't imagine the cables not getting nicked. People are people and if the cables are valuable, which they certainly are - they'll get robbed. If you have a garage you're fine, or you use a charging station, but everyone else has a problem. People who park on-street are even worse - because their space isn't always right outside the house, and a cable draped across the path might trip people up.

Best answer is that petrol stations convert into charging stations. In the future charging will probably only take around 10 minutes. You take your car there and bob's your uncle - you'll probably only need to do it once a week.

As for the load levelling, this doesn't sound ideal. What if the grid needs your power and drains your battery right when you needed the car to be charged up - or you need to charge your dead battery at 6:00pm? Tough luck!

Tech3 · 27-03-2010 3:59pm

Another article the last day on this. I wonder have the NRA been contacted about where the ESB are going to install these on the road network. I might email them to see where the charging points are going to be located on the motorway network. Something tells me many of them will be thrown on the parking laybys.

The country’s first electric vehicle (EV) charging stations or “juice points” have gone live in Dublin.

The four on-street charging posts are the first of a nationwide programme that will see 1,500 installed across the country over the next two years.

The latest additions to the State’s motoring infrastructure are located at parking spaces in the city centre: two outside the ESB headquarters in Fitzwilliam Street, one outside the The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on Adelaide Road and another outside the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland in Wilton Place.

By the end of June, a further 12 will be installed at locations in Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Portlaoise, the ESB said today.

The company plans to build 3,500 charge points by the end of 2011 – a total of 2,000 domestic units, which can be charged through the mains, and 1,500 kerbside units.

Electric vehicle drivers have to register to acquire a personalised electric fob to allow them access the public charge points, but recharging will be free for the initial phase of the project. It takes up to two hours for an 80 per cent recharge on most EVs, and between six and eight hours for a full recharge.

At today’s launch, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Eamon Ryan said just over a year ago, the Government announced its intention that 10 per cent of the Irish motoring fleet will be electric by 2020.

“We have seen great progress since then. Ireland will be among the first in the world with this kind of nationwide infrastructure. It’s bold, ambitious and will show Ireland as a global leader in the green economy,” he said.

ESB chief executive Padraig McManus said the company’s strategy of decarbonising it electricity generation by 2035 will allow for the development of a decarbonised national transport system.

Under the company’s plan, Dublin city and county will have 500 charge points by 2012, Cork (135), Limerick (45), Galway (45) and Wateford (45).

The remaining points will be located across the country, at least one in every town with a population of 1,500. There will also be 30 rapid charges, which can charge vehicles in 20 minutes, located along all major routes, at intervals of 60 kilometres, nine of which will be installed by the end of this year.

Electric cars are significantly cheaper to operate than their fossil fuel counterparts, costing an estimated three cent a mile to operate compared to 15 cent for a conventional vehicle. The ESB have not yet settled on a recharging price, but it is expected to be markedly cheaper than petrol or diesel.

Link

tech69 · 01-04-2010 8:12am

I totally agree with Danny, I mean tech2

Tech3 · 01-04-2010 8:32am

tech69 wrote: »

I totally agree with Danny, I mean tech2

Could you contribute to the forum instead of spamming, anymore posts like that will lead to infractions.

30 DC fast-charging points will be located on motorways by end 2011

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