30 DC fast-charging points will be located on motorways by end 2011

Tech3

I'm not sure where these will be installed probably the rest areas on each motorway but some of the older schemes dont have the rest areas. 30 charge stations is not a lot though considering it takes a half an hour to fully charge up the battery.

THE FIRST charge points for electric cars in Ireland are to be up and running before Easter.

The three charge points will be located outside the ESB headquarters on Fitzwilliam Street, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on Adelaide Road and the IDA/Sustainability Ireland HQ on Wilton Place, all in Dublin.

They will be the first of 1,500 charge points to be rolled out by the end of 2011. The project will go to tender later this year.

The points will be concentrated in urban areas and along major routes initially. A total of 30 DC fast-charging points will be located on motorways. They will allow an electric car to be charged within a half an hour.

The cars will have top speeds of about 100km/h and a range of 160km in between charging, much less than conventional vehicles, but it is hoped to target buyers who will use them mostly for urban driving.

Link

csd

In Paris, they have these charging points at many underground car parks.

Was there any build-up to this announcement? It seems to have come out of nowhere. Quite an ambitious rollout programme too!

/csd

old_aussie

Sounds like a positive infrastructure step.

Hope Australia starts rolling out charging points soon.

That must piss-off the oil barons in the middle east.;)

BluntGuy

Unexpected stuff, but otherwise good news.

I suppose these are the green footprints in the "Revised Programme For Government" beginning to shine through?

Tech3

Yeah I'd say the greens wouldnt be interested in this as it's not public transport :rolleyes:

It's good news though, although rather out of the blue as such. I didnt expect a plan for the implementation of electric cars and charging points at all. Fair enough the government said that so much of the population will be driving electrics cars in 2020 but this is fianna failours we talking about here. The problem with these new cars is the distance before you have to make your next charge. 160km is measily enough and I wouldnt like to wait a half an hour on the side of a motorway.

marmurr1916

They'll need to increase their range and top speed and reduce the charge-up time significantly if electric cars are going to take off.

Still, this is a good start and hopefully there'll be recharging points on all routes within a few years.

KevR

marmurr1916 wrote: »

They'll need to increase their range and top speed and reduce the charge-up time significantly if electric cars are going to take off.

Still, this is a good start and hopefully there'll be recharging points on all routes within a few years.

Agreed.

I certainly think it's a step in the right direction. Still though, the electricity will be mostly coming from coal and oil power stations so not exactly green.

If electric or hydrogen cars do end up being a majority in the future and if the electricity/hydrogen is created in a more green manner then I wonder if the people who are currently against all road building on environmental grounds would turn into huge road building supporters? If not, why not?

serfboard

tech2 wrote: »

I wouldnt like to wait a half an hour on the side of a motorway.

Agreed. Don't think anyone else will either. I've heard about some possible technological developments whereby you pull into a filling station and drive your car over this yoke, which removes your un-charged battery and replaces it with a charged one. To do this, obviously, the cars would have to be designed to a similar spec with all batteries on the bottom. If this comes to fruition, it will make electric cars really feasible IMO.

tech2 wrote: »

160km is measily enough

Well, it would get you Dublin->Galway with just one stop, and if the solution I mentioned above is in place (i.e. the stop is only 2 minutes) I think that wouldn't present too much difficulty. Dublin->Galway with a 2 minute stop along a motorway would still be better than the situation we had not so long ago where we were crawling through Moate, Ballinasloe etc.

Chris_5339762

Wonder where they're going to put them on the main routes assuming the MSA project (apart from the Enfield and M1 ones) are on permanent hold and that its illegal to stop anywhere else on the motorway?

marmurr1916

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wonder where they're going to put them on the main routes assuming the MSA project (apart from the Enfield and M1 ones) are on permanent hold and that its illegal to stop anywhere else on the motorway?

They'll presumably be at the rest areas (i.e lay-bys) that are a feature of Irish motorways.

Chris_5339762

Although I'd leave the lay-bys there as they are a temporary MSA substitute, they're illegal too.

Victor

I'm not convinced about conventionally-sized electric cars - they do nothing to prevent congestion and mostly swop one pollution for another.

Chris_5339762

I still reckon electric cars wont take off until you can get the same mileage out of one of them as you can a conventional tank of petrol. THEN you'll see mass migration to electric cars.

Couple electric cars with fusion generated power (someday dammit ) and most pollution and energy problems will be solved.

baalthor

KevR wrote: »

Agreed.

I certainly think it's a step in the right direction. Still though, the electricity will be mostly coming from coal and oil power stations so not exactly green.

According to my ESB bill, 75% of Ireland's electricity comes from coal and gas.
We actually generate more from renewables than oil.

Carawaystick

So how do these battery powered cars defog the windscreen or wing mirrors? or heat the interior when it's -8 degrees outside? without a serious compromise in range?

L1011

Carawaystick wrote: »

So how do these battery powered cars defog the windscreen or wing mirrors? or heat the interior when it's -8 degrees outside? without a serious compromise in range?

Heating elements for the glassware, cabin heater for the cabin. It the cabin heater is electric it destroys the range.

The Citroen electric vehicles get around this by having a seperate cabin heater that runs on....


PETROL:rolleyes:

Victor

Or leave it plugged in at home.

carlmango11

If electric or hydrogen cars do end up being a majority in the future and if the electricity/hydrogen is created in a more green manner then I wonder if the people who are currently against all road building on environmental grounds would turn into huge road building supporters? If not, why not?

I was thinking that myself. Driving with zero carbon emissions is far more comfortable and handy than getting unreliable buses and packed trains. But do we really want a country where everybody drives everywhere? It would be like America on steroids. There is a certain quality to public transport and people walking that driving would completely diminish.


:pac:

Victor

Energy sustainability and clean air are only two environmental concepts. I imagine it would be rather difficult to build a road that didn't have an impact on an environment. Materials are used and CO2 still generated (from concrete manufacture and likely construction equipment), landscapes and habitats are still disturbed or destroyed. Watercourses are interfered with and this brings risks of flooding, drinking water contamination and further habitat disturbance (watercourse are majors routes for wildlife). Also, if everyone had a car and driver everywhere there would be congestion, safety and health issues.

There is also the environmental impact of the vehicles themselves, the mining for metals, including heavy metals have huge impacts.

Mrmoe

Positive step forward I think. Projects like this always have to start somewhere and there are always going to be problems such as range and timing issues to begin with but the only way we can overcome these is if we actually do what we are doing now. People will always need private cars so total public transport is never the total solution. Price wise how much will this save/cost?

cc

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

L1011

Victor wrote: »

Or leave it plugged in at home.

Only gets over keeping the screen cleared when leaving home. Doesn't solve the keeping warm internally or keeping the screen cleared wherever you're going bits.

crushproof

carlmango11 wrote: »

I was thinking that myself. Driving with zero carbon emissions is far more comfortable and handy than getting unreliable buses and packed trains. But do we really want a country where everybody drives everywhere? It would be like America on steroids. There is a certain quality to public transport and people walking that driving would completely diminish.


:pac:

Well, we already are the most car dependant country in the world!:rolleyes:

Ireland is the most car dependent country in the world. We drive our cars 24,400 kilometres per annum, 70pc more than in France or Germany, 50pc more than in Britain and 30pc more than in the US.
[HTML]http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2474920[/HTML]

paulm17781

cc wrote: »

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

That's exactly what the oil companies think too.

KevR

I had a day dream a while back about electric cars. My idea was to have a pole (retractable) on top of all cars which could draw electricity from over-head wires, like electric trains here. The overhead wires would only be on certain busier roads and cars could use electricity to directly power the car and recharge its battery when on roads with overhead lines. People could also recharge their at home or wherever.

Of course we would have to ban trucks, buses...etc from using roads with the overhead lines and what would happen if someone snagged the power line with their bad driving? :pac:

EDIT: just thinking about it a little further...obviously the lines and pole from the car would need to be high enough so people couldn't grab it. Maybe just have the lines on long stretches of Motorway (already restrictions) and Dual Carriageways (change law to ban pedestrians/cyclists).

Thought I'd share my day dream even though it wouldn't be at all practical to implement.

jd

I wonder where these charging points will be. Hardly on the hard shoulder...

biblio

KevR wrote: »

I had a day dream a while back about electric cars. My idea was to have a pole (retractable) on top of all cars which could draw electricity from over-head wires, like electric trains here. The overhead wires would only be on certain busier roads and cars could use electricity to directly power the car and recharge its battery when on roads with overhead lines. People could also recharge their at home or wherever.

Of course we would have to ban trucks, buses...etc from using roads with the overhead lines and what would happen if someone snagged the power line with their bad driving? :pac:

EDIT: just thinking about it a little further...obviously the lines and pole from the car would need to be high enough so people couldn't grab it. Maybe just have the lines on long stretches of Motorway (already restrictions) and Dual Carriageways (change law to ban pedestrians/cyclists).

Thought I'd share my day dream even though it wouldn't be at all practical to implement.

Kind of like a trollybus?

Tech3

jd wrote: »

I wonder where these charging points will be. Hardly on the hard shoulder...

On the layby's/rest areas more than likely. Some of them on the newer schemes like below but older ones dont have these.

Chris_5339762

But those things are technically illegal

KevR

biblio wrote: »

Kind of like a trollybus?

Indeed. I had never even seen or heard of a trollybus until you mentioned it and I Googled it.

cc

saw them in Athens a few years ago, reminded me of a poor mans tram though

ardmacha

Indeed there were Trolleybuses in Belfast in the 1960s, I heard a radio program with someone who noted that they were regarded as the apex of Irish public transport at the time, being smooth and quiet in operation. There is one in the Transport Museum in Cultra.

I don't think this idea would work for cars though! There was a guy on the radio today talking about the end of oil (over time). Perhaps overnight charging with rechangeable battery packs for longer trips will become the norm.,

yermanoffthetv

Honda Clarity hydrogen fuel cell car. I really do think they should be pushing these rather than electric car. Skip to about 3:40 minutes and they talk about the infastructure that goes with it.

Round Cable

cc wrote: »

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

I don't see a future for hydrogen. There are no existing hydrogen filling stations in Ireland. New storage tanks and 'pumps' still have to be built. Petrol and hydrogen filling stations are not comparable. The beauty of oil is the fact that it is an easily transportable liquid fuel. On the other hand, hydrogen is a gas, and the smallest molecule in existence. The gas has to be pressurised to be transported by road, and even then it takes several more trucks to transport than petrol. Transportation by pipeline is not viable for every filling station in the country, as the smallest gas molecule, is prone to leaks, and so can't be transported through natural gas pipelines, and requires completely new and hugely expensive dedicated hydrogen pipes.

In terms of efficiencies (and running costs), you need to use 3-4 times more electricity to electrolyse water, compress the gas, transport, and run through a fuel cell, than to charge 1 electric car (or plug-in hybrid), from an existing part of our infrastructure, the electricity grid. The use of plug-in hybrids requires absolutely no new infrastructure.

And the last point is the cost of fuel cells. While electric cars and plug-in hybrids, and indeed regular hybrids, are more expensive than traditional cars, battery prices are falling and with the inevitable oil price increases, they will be competitive with traditional cars. I doubt fuel cell hydrogen cars will ever take off, not in 10 years, not ever.

Chris_5339762

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

cc

Round Cable wrote: »

I don't see a future for hydrogen. There are no existing hydrogen filling stations in Ireland. New storage tanks and 'pumps' still have to be built. Petrol and hydrogen filling stations are not comparable. The beauty of oil is the fact that it is an easily transportable liquid fuel. On the other hand, hydrogen is a gas, and the smallest molecule in existence. The gas has to be pressurised to be transported by road, and even then it takes several more trucks to transport than petrol. Transportation by pipeline is not viable for every filling station in the country, as the smallest gas molecule, is prone to leaks, and so can't be transported through natural gas pipelines, and requires completely new and hugely expensive dedicated hydrogen pipes.

In terms of efficiencies (and running costs), you need to use 3-4 times more electricity to electrolyse water, compress the gas, transport, and run through a fuel cell, than to charge 1 electric car (or plug-in hybrid), from an existing part of our infrastructure, the electricity grid. The use of plug-in hybrids requires absolutely no new infrastructure.

And the last point is the cost of fuel cells. While electric cars and plug-in hybrids, and indeed regular hybrids, are more expensive than traditional cars, battery prices are falling and with the inevitable oil price increases, they will be competitive with traditional cars. I doubt fuel cell hydrogen cars will ever take off, not in 10 years, not ever.

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

cc

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

true, but if i can fill up my petrol car now without fear of explosion i think i'll be ok filling up a hydrogen car

Round Cable

cc wrote: »

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

Plugging in a car to recharge a battery is every night isn't a huge change in behaviour, you don't even have to leave your home to go to a petrol station. For me I think money is more important. The consumer is faced with buying a plug-in hybrid or a fuel cell electric vehicle, the later has an upfront cost at least 10 times greater, followed by 8-10 times greater running cost. The fact that a multi billion euro infrastructure has to be built, compared to none with the plug-in hybrid scenario, means it's unlikely the consumer will get a choice at all.

Carawaystick

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hydrogen has a tendancy to explode too.

Isn't that the whole point of Otto cycle engines? the fuel explodes, unlike Diesel engines where it burns.

Round,
He molecules are smaller than H2 molecules, only one atom. heavier though.

Aidan1

Plugging in a car to recharge a battery is every night isn't a huge change in behaviour

Exactly, particularly when charge points will be available practically everywhere you'd usually park your car, including on-street, multi storey, supermarkets, apartment car parks, not to mention the quick charge points at petrol stations and the MSAs. The electricity grid already exists, after all, and EVs allow us to get more renewable electricty onto the grid.

paulm17781

The charge time will be the issue with EV. If they do battery swaps (at say pertrol stations). I think it will be a winner.

cc

for a pure electric car I can only see a use for them pretty much as they are now, city runarounds. To be able to drive hundreds of Km's would require a heavy beast of a car full of batteries. If I was driving from Cork to Belfast on the motorway I wouldn't fancy pulling over to recharge for an hour or so to top up. The plug-in petrol hybrid has no environmental merit whatsoever IMHO, like the Prius the amount of carbon needed to get one of these built is ridiculous and I don't think they should be encouraged as an environmental solution.

Round Cable

cc wrote: »

for a pure electric car I can only see a use for them pretty much as they are now, city runarounds. To be able to drive hundreds of Km's would require a heavy beast of a car full of batteries. If I was driving from Cork to Belfast on the motorway I wouldn't fancy pulling over to recharge for an hour or so to top up. The plug-in petrol hybrid has no environmental merit whatsoever IMHO, like the Prius the amount of carbon needed to get one of these built is ridiculous and I don't think they should be encouraged as an environmental solution.

On the first point, I agree, until battery range and costs are significantly lowered, combined with the availability of quick charge facilities, the pure electric car is a while away. However, plug-in hybrids have environmental merit as do hybrids. There was a story doing the rounds that a Hummer was greener than a Prius, in production terms. This has since been proven to be untrue. The Prius battery contains nickel, and mining it is dirty, however the nickel once extracted, can be recycled and reused indefinitely. No plug-in hybrid will use NiMH batteries, lighter lithium ion batteries are the focus, and no mining is required for lithium. Also the FCX Clarity and every hydrogen fuel cell veichle produced to date are hybrids, with the battery used to even fuel cell output and for regenerative braking.

spacetweek

crushproof wrote: »

Well, we already are the most car dependant country in the world!:rolleyes:

Ireland is the most car dependent country in the world. We drive our cars 24,400 kilometres per annum, 70pc more than in France or Germany, 50pc more than in Britain and 30pc more than in the US.
[HTML]http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2474920[/HTML]

Did you actually read that article? Especially the final paragraph.

It very clearly states the opposite.

spacetweek

Aidan1 wrote: »

Exactly, particularly when charge points will be available practically everywhere you'd usually park your car, including on-street, multi storey, supermarkets, apartment car parks, not to mention the quick charge points at petrol stations and the MSAs. The electricity grid already exists, after all, and EVs allow us to get more renewable electricty onto the grid.

Actually all those charge points would be a lot of infrastructure to have to provide.

I don't think we'll need them though, as in the future the range will be so high that you won't ever need to charge except outside your house.

Del2005

cc wrote: »

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The infrastructure is in place i.e existing petrol stations, you drive in, fill up and go. Really can't understand the push for plug in electrics.

cc wrote: »

You make all valid points but I think hydrogen is will be more attractive to the consumer as it requires no real change to their behavior, which I think is key. I can't give you any statistics but its my hunch. I'm sure it will be expensive to process and distribute but like the oil companies i'm sure they will turn massive profits. Getting gas and oil from beneath the sea is pretty cash intensive.

Hydrogen will only ever be viable when we have Fusion reactors and they are a long way off. There will also need to be a major redesign of car parks and peoples garages will all have to be modified

spacetweek wrote: »

Actually all those charge points would be a lot of infrastructure to have to provide.

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars. How much spare capacity have we now and what is the lead time for new power stations?

I don't think we'll need them though, as in the future the range will be so high that you won't ever need to charge except outside your house.

What if you don't own a house?

ardmacha

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars.

battery charging might we suited to charging when there is surplus, either on windy days or at nights if there is nuclear base load.

What if you don't own a house?

Well if you live somewhere with no electricity you do have a problem.

Del2005

ardmacha wrote: »

battery charging might we suited to charging when there is surplus, either on windy days or at nights if there is nuclear base load.

Well if you live somewhere with no electricity you do have a problem.

The batteries won't be charged at night. They'll all be plugged in to charge between 17:00 and 19:00 when people come home from work as the batteries will take a long time to charge off a domestic supply. Very few if any will leave them to charge at night as what's the point in having a car outside the door if you can't use it when you want. There is no incentive for the vast majority of people to charge on nights as they get no discount and the larger standing charge for night rate won't make them change.

On the other hand if employers where encouraged to install charging points then the cars will be sitting for 8 hours where they won't be used. They could install higher power/smart chargers to even out the peaks in supply by taking a feed from the cars if needed and the cars can charge when there are dips. It would make it feasible for me to have an electric car as I've no access to power and I wouldn't like to leave hundreds of meters of wires easily available where I live even if I had.

spacetweek

Here's how I see it panning out:
Cars will use batteries. They will last for weeks.
There will be one small removable one in the boot. The rest are inaccessible in the chassis.
There will not be any way of charging a car using domestic power supplies.

You will charge your car in a charging station - used to be petrol stations.
It will take around 1-2 mins. There will be no way to charge a car anywhere else. Charging stations will generate their own power so power loading on the grid won't be an issue.
If you get stuck away from a charging station with a flat battery, someone can lend you their removable one from their boot. Inserted in your car, this will allow you to limp to a station to get charged up again.

Advantages:
Driver behaviour won't have to change. You still take your car to a "refueling" place, where they "refuel" it.
The issue of having to undergo the massive job of retrofitting charging points everywhere won't occur.

Del2005 wrote: »

And a lot more electricity will be needed if everyone will be driving electric cars. How much spare capacity have we now and what is the lead time for new power stations?
What if you don't own a house?

Yes, it will. It will take time to build all these, but the cost won't be greater, as the power they generate for cars will displace lots of oil imports. Nations that mine their own oil have a problem though, as it's hard to justify no longer using the oil they already have.

If you don't own a house - then you have difficulties getting your car recharged. However, petrol cars have this issue too.

hi5

KevR wrote: »

I had a day dream a while back about electric cars. My idea was to have a pole (retractable) on top of all cars which could draw electricity from over-head wires, like electric trains here. The overhead wires would only be on certain busier roads and cars could use electricity to directly power the car and recharge its battery when on roads with overhead lines. People could also recharge their at home or wherever.

Of course we would have to ban trucks, buses...etc from using roads with the overhead lines and what would happen if someone snagged the power line with their bad driving? :pac:

EDIT: just thinking about it a little further...obviously the lines and pole from the car would need to be high enough so people couldn't grab it. Maybe just have the lines on long stretches of Motorway (already restrictions) and Dual Carriageways (change law to ban pedestrians/cyclists).


Thought I'd share my day dream even though it wouldn't be at all practical to implement.

Your daydreams are already at an advanced stage.think of an electric toothbrush crossed with scalextric.

The roads are embedded with electric coils,the magnetic part is in your car,so no actual contact.
http://www.citelec.org/eviac/default.htm#Objectives

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/02/korean-electric-car-gets-a-charge-an-induction-charge-from-t/

bkbk

Del2005 wrote: »

The batteries won't be charged at night. They'll all be plugged in to charge between 17:00 and 19:00 when people come home from work as the batteries will take a long time to charge off a domestic supply. Very few if any will leave them to charge at night as what's the point in having a car outside the door if you can't use it when you want. There is no incentive for the vast majority of people to charge on nights as they get no discount and the larger standing charge for night rate won't make them change.

That is easily solvable problem. Car chargers won't use home power supply plugs, they will use specially designed plugs specific to cars and with a much higher voltage. More importantly they will be smart plugs and it will probably cost you 10 times as much to charge between 5 and 7 as it would at night, therefore encouraging people to set their charger to only charge at night.

BTW interestingly, it has been estimated that you could convert 85% of all cars in the US to battery and have them charge overnight without needing to build any new power stations. The existing nightly slack power supply that is currently just wasted could be used.

IMO the transitional period to full electric will be covered by hybrids like the Chevy Volt. Basically the volt has both a battery that will get you 40 miles and a petrol tank that will get you an additional 300 miles. The idea being that the vast majority of daily commutes are under 40 miles and therefore charging over night should be perfectly fine for 90% of people. While you could switch to petrol for longer trips.