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30 DC fast-charging points will be located on motorways by end 2011

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭user1842


    Anybody who thinks electric cars are going to work in their current state is totally delusional.

    Another fine waste of money by the Irish government. Stupid tree hugging Greens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Roryhy wrote: »
    I would think swapping your depleted battery for a fully charged one is a more realistic idea, this could be done relatively quickly anyway. I didn't think of this, i came across plans not so long ago for an automated battery change system.

    That idea looks to be more efficient. Would it be difficult to change these batterys out of the car though?


  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Roryhy


    tech2 wrote: »
    That idea looks to be more efficient. Would it be difficult to change these batterys out of the car though?

    Click on the link above, it shows it in action, takes 60 seconds!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    dynamick wrote: »
    There is a battery swapping project for electric taxis in Tokyo. Takes 60 seconds to swap a battery

    I heard about this a couple of years ago, in California I think. It was perhaps just an idea but the plan was that the stations would be solar powered so batteries would be charged by solar and changed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,548 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    dynamick wrote: »
    There is a battery swapping project for electric taxis in Tokyo. Takes 60 seconds to swap a battery

    What about the cost of the batteries? Constant recharging of batteries wears them down so I would imagine batteries for electric vehicles would have a very short lifespan. Im sure the car companies are aware of this and see it as a way to charge the customer again and again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    The prius battery is lasting 8yrs+ and guaranteed for that long. There is some complicated software mechanism for determining how to charge these batteries frequently without damaging them. I don't understand it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Battery swapping is indeed the only way to go. However, it would need a common specification from different car manufactures on the battery size and location. I can't see why this couldn't be done - it's done for fuel tank nozzles already.

    While I understand the point about biofuels, I don't think it will be the predominant part of the mix. You only have to look at recent spikes in food prices to see that it would be hard to justify using land to grow fuels instead of food.

    What I do see happening is a mix - existing engines (predominantly diesel) becoming more fuel efficient, hybrids (which will keep getting more and more from their batteries and less from their petrol/diesel), electric cars with swappable-out batteries, and possibly biofuel cars as well - but only a small percentage.

    As regards hybrids, you only have to look at the stats to see how much more efficient they are now compared to when they first came out, and to look at the fact that Toyota have plans to launch hybrid versions of all their cars, to see where we're going.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Renault are launching 3 evs with swappable batteries in 2011 and two more models in 2012
    http://www.renault.com/en/capeco2/vehicule-electrique/pages/vehicule-electrique.aspx

    All the major manufacturers are bringing out hybrids. Even Porsche are doing a hybrid version of their cayenne tractor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Also with swappable batteries the problem is that you'll keep them nice and tidy and clean only to have to swap them out with another set whose previous owner kept them in a **** condition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    You would have a different battery in your car every week and you'd never actually see the battery so how can you keep it in good or bad condition?

    Presumably the cars and batteries all have unique identifiers so the system would notice if one car had a fault that was thrashing the batteries.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,548 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    serfboard wrote: »
    While I understand the point about biofuels, I don't think it will be the predominant part of the mix. You only have to look at recent spikes in food prices to see that it would be hard to justify using land to grow fuels instead of food.

    What I do see happening is a mix - existing engines (predominantly diesel) becoming more fuel efficient, hybrids (which will keep getting more and more from their batteries and less from their petrol/diesel), electric cars with swappable-out batteries, and possibly biofuel cars as well - but only a small percentage.

    My point about biofuels was that it is something that suits our country (we are a low density, sparsely populated country, wheras EVs are most suited to cities), helps our economy (can be 100% produced here and these are not jobs that would be lost to low cost manufacturing countries), produced in a sector we are already world leaders in (agriculture) and it doesnt really matter to us what the rest of the world does (we are an island with a very low proportion of international drivers).
    serfboard wrote: »
    As regards hybrids, you only have to look at the stats to see how much more efficient they are now compared to when they first came out, and to look at the fact that Toyota have plans to launch hybrid versions of all their cars, to see where we're going.

    Maybe this is not the actual definition but my understanding of a hybrid vehicle is that it has an electric motor that charges using the energy generated when breaking, as opposed to charging at the mains (which as I understand are EVs). Hybrid engines can be used with biofuels to make them more fuel efficient.

    The problem for Ireland if we go down the EV route is where do we get all the energy needed to recharge all the batteries from? Our current energy policy of giving guaranteed paying prices to unreliable sources of energy (wind) will mean we will struggle to meet our current energy demand in the future. And thats without the extra energy demand which EVs would place on the grid. The cost of building the infrastructure to generate and transmit the energy needed would be enormous and would only lead to higher energy costs in the future.

    Also the idea that EVs would be able to charge for cheap using night rate electricity is false. Night rate electricity is cheaper because demand is low, if all the cars on our roads had to recharge at night, demand at night would be very high, meaning the rate would probably be the same as during the day. IMO EVs would push up the cost of electricity in this country considerably which would seriously damage our economy. Yet they offer us no advantages because everything (including the electricity) would be produced abroad.
    dynamick wrote: »
    The prius battery is lasting 8yrs+ and guaranteed for that long. There is some complicated software mechanism for determining how to charge these batteries frequently without damaging them. I don't understand it.

    Again, the Prius is a hybrid, not an EV so, AFAIK but am open to correction on this, a completely different battery. I would like to see the estimated lifespan for an EV battery and the cost over the lifespan of the vehicle of replacing the batteries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭eia340600


    The Chevrolet Volt is an EV that can also be run on diesel for longer journeys..It is a hybrid that charges on the mains.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    electricity is cheaper because demand is low, if all the cars on our roads had to recharge at night, demand at night would be very high, meaning the rate would probably be the same as during the day.

    No one is talking about full electrification - that's decades away in reality, but a 10% penetration would actually involve a relatively small increase in demand. The figures are simple - the likes of the LEAF have a 24kw battery. If we're talking about an 8 hour charge cycle with all charging from zero charge (very highly unlikely), that means that each car represents an additional 3kw/h of demand at night. Given the fact that our 'peak to trough' demand differential can be as much as 2GW, that's a lot of cars. Moreover, the biggest problem we have at the moment (particularly in the summer) is that both conventional plant (and even some wind) is constrained off at night due to a lack of demand. EVs would actually help with this, by allowing plant to stay running.

    Secondly, there are effectively three types of cars (simply put) that use electricity.

    Hybrids use a battery and electric motor inconjunction with a petrol engine (1.8 litre atkinson cycle in the Gen III Prius0, and do not plug in.

    Plug in Hybrids (referred to as PHEVs) are often very similar to the above, but can also plug in. Examples are the GM Volt (or Opel Ampera here), or the Plug in Prius, of which there are several early production models in Ireland). These can use power from the grid, or from running their petrol/diesel engine (all petrol so far). The Volt will have a 60km range on battery alone, which will be interesting.

    Lastly, there are Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs), full battery power, no engine. The first production vehicles from a major manufacturer are due to land here later this year (Nissan Leaf, but practically every other manufacturer is queued up behind them).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Trevor451


    Why don't we invest more in researching into hydrogen powered cars? Electric cars are crap since they have long recharge times and they still rely on fossil fuels to power them? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,548 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Trevor451 wrote: »
    Why don't we invest more in researching into hydrogen powered cars? Electric cars are crap since they have long recharge times and they still rely on fossil fuels to power them? :confused:

    AFAIK, storing hydrogen would be very dangerous because it is very combustable in that state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Production of hydrogen is too expensive and causes too much pollution
    hydrogen is not economically feasible to use for transportation, nor will its use reduce global warming, because of the cost and greenhouse gases generated during production, the low energy content per volume and weight of the container, the cost of the fuel cells, and the cost of the infrastructure
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hype_about_Hydrogen


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Home charging is going to cause a lot of problems for those of us who dont own our own homes and enjoy the luxury of our own garage or driveway. given the poor standard of rented accomodation In Ireland It will be a long time before charging points become standard in such places and what of properties which are not on street level and/or rely on communal or even on-street parking ?
    dynamick wrote: »
    You would have a different battery in your car every week and you'd never actually see the battery so how can you keep it in good or bad condition?

    Presumably the cars and batteries all have unique identifiers so the system would notice if one car had a fault that was thrashing the batteries.

    So one could be swapping a brand new battery for a clapped out piece of junk (or vice versa) ?

    Batteries have a finite life at the end of the day someone is going to have to replace/recycle them. How will this be paid for ?

    A standard battery that will work in all cars sounds like a good (actually probably essential) idea but comes up against some problems.
    1) The standard needs to be global (since people often take their cars abroad -particularly in countries with land borders)
    2) If the standard is too rigid it might cause problems as battery technology develops/improves further
    3) Will the same type of battery work in a 2 seater smart car as in a 7 seater SUV (for the small minority who actually need such a thing)
    cc wrote: »
    for a pure electric car I can only see a use for them pretty much as they are now, city runarounds.
    When prople spend thousands on a vehicle they (quite reasonably) expect it to be suitable for trips to the shop AND the odd Cork to Belfast type journey.
    Nuttzz wrote: »
    2 park benches were burn it in a local park here over the weekend, .
    Even if there is no reason to steal charging cables (given the rising price of copper im not sure how this will be so) there are enough idiots who will damage or unplug the things anyway just for the sake of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Trevor451 wrote: »
    Why don't we invest more in researching into hydrogen powered cars? Electric cars are crap since they have long recharge times and they still rely on fossil fuels to power them? :confused:

    Because the energy for H_2 for Hydrogen powered cars will be from some magical energy source we can't use as it is????


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 chipper


    I've said it before and I'll say it again.

    Electric vehicles wont be popular enough until you can get the same milage out of a charge as you do out of a tank of petrol, and the recharge process takes the same length of time as filling your car with petrol.


    Most people DON'T drive around with a full tank of petrol, they top up with €10 -€20 euro thats it, So MOST people do not require the range that a fossil fuel car will provide on a full tank. an electric car would suit all of my journeys for a year with the exception of about 3 ! The nissan leaf is quoted as having a yearly runing cost of €234 for 19,300 kms ! I could afford a limo to drive me the 3 annual journey and still have saved a fortune . Also if everyone has no problem charging their mobile phone, whats the big deal charging your car ? or maybe the mobile phone will never catch on, the old ones are always ready to go


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭user1842


    chipper wrote: »
    Also if everyone has no problem charging their mobile phone, whats the big deal charging your car ? or maybe the mobile phone will never catch on, the old ones are always ready to go

    Got to be the worst comparison ever


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 chipper


    plug it into a mains socket, charge it, unplug it, use it.

    there is the comparison


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭user1842


    chipper wrote: »
    plug it into a mains socket, charge it, unplug it, use it.

    there is the comparison

    You can use your phone when it is charging you cant use your car unless you have a lot of cable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    chipper wrote: »
    Most people DON'T drive around with a full tank of petrol, they top up with €10 -€20 euro thats it

    Not many people top up with only €10 petrol, mainly it's €30 to a full tank. Long commuters will have a full tank of petrol filled up at a cheaper petrol station. Many top up the tank so that it doesnt require a refill for a couple hundred km's.
    an electric car would suit all of my journeys for a year with the exception of about 3 !

    Thats a good point, some it will benefit, others that have long journeys to home/work it will not work out for.
    The nissan leaf is quoted as having a yearly runing cost of €234 for 19,300 kms ! I could afford a limo to drive me the 3 annual journey and still have saved a fortune .

    That sounds astonishing but I wont believe till I see it. Also electric cars are proven to be not as realiable as the diesel/petrol cars.
    Also if everyone has no problem charging their mobile phone, whats the big deal charging your car ? or maybe the mobile phone will never catch on, the old ones are always ready to go

    The phone will be on charge for 3 hours whereas your car will be on charge for the rest of the night. Also as said above you cant use a car that is charging.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    chipper wrote: »
    The nissan leaf is quoted as having a yearly runing cost of €234 for 19,300 kms !

    It also has a range of only 115km. It wouldn't be any good to me for example, and it wouldn't be much use on the country's motorway network, but it would likely make a good city car I suppose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    The Leaf has a range of 160km - about 100 miles, from a 24kw/h battery. Battery life is guaranteed to 10 years (that's as far as they've gotten with the testing, but they reckon it'll be good for plenty more). Like I said previously, Nissan (through their Infiniti brand) have announced that they'll have a 250km range version on sale in 2013, with further improvements to come.

    That won't do everyone either, but most people commute less than a 60km round trip. Night rate is around 7c kw/h, so full charge of a Leaf is €1.68, or just over 1c per km travelled (ICE car will struggle to beat 8c per km in traffic). Sounds alright to me. The only problems are the upfront price of the car, and, for some people, the range.
    Also electric cars are proven to be not as realiable as the diesel/petrol cars
    .

    Nope, the opposite in fact. There are far fewer moving parts; mechanically, the cars are far simpler. This means that there is no engine oil to be changed, regenerative braking means that the discs/pads will last longer, and there is no clutch to go wrong either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭user1842


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    The Leaf has a range of 160km - about 100 miles, from a 24kw/h battery

    Says below that in real world driving conditions the range is only 73 miles :(

    http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/26067/

    I think for anyone other that people who grew up and work in a city this is an non runner.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    What it doesn't say is the range could also be more, under ideal circumstances.

    Thing is, a lot of this is speculation. There has never been a large scale deployment of EVs to the mass market - this will happen for the first time over the next few years. There will undoubtedly be problems that no one foresees, and some of the things that people regard as critical will fade away. And it'll take the bones of a decade before these are really widespread, so we've plenty of time to find out.

    Case in point, there's a lot of talk about on street charging infrastructure, but evidence from (manufacturer run)trials in Paris and the US has been that people don't really use them, because they're not needed, tending to charge at home the vast majority of the time. More to the point, people only tended to charge their cars once every three nights at home, because even the early vehicles (Mini E and Fluence EV) had enough range.

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazines-Blogs/Tim-Pollard-Blog2/How-do-people-really-use-electric-cars-Now-we-know/


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,200 ✭✭✭markpb


    Says below that in real world driving conditions the range is only 73 miles :( I think for anyone other that people who grew up and work in a city this is an non runner.

    Even at 73 miles, a lot of people could use the Leaf as their commuting car. I agree it won't suit people travelling long distances and it won't suit people who want to use it for travelling around the country at weekends but for most people (not just people in cities), it will allow a commuter to live 35 miles away from work.

    Someone will reply to my post saying that I'm wrong because they live 50 miles from work or travel from Cork to Belfast every weekend but lets be honest, that's not the norm or even a big minority. Around 2m people live in the three cities (so they're mostly okay with a 73 mile round trip) and a lot of other people work in or close to larger towns around the country. The number of people commuting more than 73 mile per day is going to be very small.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭user1842


    markpb wrote: »
    Even at 73 miles, a lot of people could use the Leaf as their commuting car. I agree it won't suit people travelling long distances and it won't suit people who want to use it for travelling around the country at weekends but for most people (not just people in cities), it will allow a commuter to live 35 miles away from work.

    Someone will reply to my post saying that I'm wrong because they live 50 miles from work or travel from Cork to Belfast every weekend but lets be honest, that's not the norm or even a big minority. Around 2m people live in the three cities (so they're mostly okay with a 73 mile round trip) and a lot of other people work in or close to larger towns around the country. The number of people commuting more than 73 mile per day is going to be very small.

    I would have to disagree with the above. People want flexibility with their car. If you pay over 30 grand for a car you want it be fit for purpose (not just local driving).

    If you can only use your car for local trips what are you going to do when you want to take a longer trip? Public transport?

    Also there is vast number of people in Ireland originally not from the main cities who would go home every two to three weeks. Again should they use public transport instead?

    Therefore a electric car is a total waste of money for these people. There is a lot more of these people that you many think.

    Electric cars need to have a range of at least 300 km and have a quick charge time of max 5 mins. I just cannot see anyone buying them at their current price, current range and current charge time.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Electric cars need to have a range of at least 300 km and have a quick charge time of max 5 mins. I just cannot see anyone buying them at their current price, current range and current charge time.

    I'd tend to agree. A range of 73 miles is pitiful in my opinion, particularly given that a full recharge can take 20 hours according to the car's article on wikipedia. I'd be quite happy with a 30-minute charge time, but when you venture into hours territory, this won't suit the driving needs of an awful lot of people.


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