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That idiot, the pope

12357…11

Comments

  • #122
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Petrovia wrote: »
    Please, please tell me you're not saying it's the people's fault that priests abuse children?!

    If that IS what you are saying,

    jesus-facepalm.jpg

    The Archbishop Sheen quote was part of my commentary on David Quinn's piece in The Independent. It was not related to the abuse but to the crisis of faith in the Church.


  • #123
    Petrovia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Petrovia


    Ultravid wrote: »
    The Archbishop Sheen quote was part of my commentary on David Quinn's piece in The Independent. It was not related to the abuse but to the crisis of faith in the Church.

    ...but wasn't the crisis of faith in the Church related to the abuse in that the abuse exists due to the crisis of faith (therefore they are directly linked)?

    Perhaps I'm mixing things up.


  • #124
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I said I stand by the constant Church teaching that all sexual activity outside holy marriage is a sin.

    You are entitled to hold that view but it's not something everyone subscirbes to by any stretch.
    Ultravid wrote: »
    A 14 year old cannot give consent (no matter what some man-made law says) to be sodomized. Peter Tatchel seeks to put young men at risk of sexual predation.

    What about 14 year old girls? Less of an issue for you?


  • #125
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I said I stand by the constant Church teaching that all sexual activity outside holy marriage is a sin.

    I just tried to highlight the sick mindset of those in the homosexual lobby and how they are quite hypocritical. A 14 year old cannot give consent (no matter what some man-made law says) to be sodomized. Peter Tatchel seeks to put young men at risk of sexual predation.

    But a twelve year old can give consent to be confirmed into a religion?
    Irony aside,I do agree that 14 is too young for people to be having sex in an ideal society,regardless of orientation,but labelling this guy as representative of gay rights is a bit like...well lumping the ordinary clergy with the child rapists and child rape enabelers.


  • #126
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    This is going round in circles and it is obvious we will not agree any time soon. So I just leave you with this:
    http://www.chastitysf.com/outside_the_box.htm


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  • #127
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Ultravid wrote: »
    the liberal wreckers can sit back and smirk

    Nah, the liberal Wreckers prefer to get stuck in!

    TRANSFORMERS_Wreckers01_coverA.jpg


  • #128
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Ultravid wrote: »
    This is the Catholic teaching:
    http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
    http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

    I'm going to have to wash my computer. I don't want those websites on my history tab....

    Ultravid: have you ever read a transcript called "Why can't I own Canadians?"

    Here it is.

    Dear Dr. Laura:
    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:


    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


    A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?


    Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


    Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?


    I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
    Your devoted fan,
    Jim


  • #129
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I'm going to have to wash my computer. I don't want those websites on my history tab....

    Ultravid: have you ever read a transcript called "Why can't I own Canadians?"

    Here it is.

    Dear Dr. Laura:
    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:


    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


    A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?


    Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


    Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?


    I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
    Your devoted fan,
    Jim

    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret* the bible for you: you end up with a lot of misguided nonsense and the plethora of protestant sects (over 30,000 at the last count, and many of them, despite their best efforts, coming across as wacky fundamentalists with nothing but bible verses to oppose the evils overcoming this world). The Catholic Church was appointed by God to interpret the bible authoritatively. The Catholic Faith is the faith of the Incarnate Word of God. We are people of the Incarnate Word, not people of the book, which is why we have reason and natural law to back up what God has revealed to us in Scripture, instead of simply bandying about bible verses. I suggest you read the links I gave previously which provide a solid foundation for Catholic teaching.


    * http://scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html


  • #130
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ultravid wrote: »
    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret* the bible for you [....] The Catholic Church was appointed by God to interpret the bible authoritatively.
    In the light of recent revelations concerning child abuse, do you seriously and totally trust the Vatican's ability to tell you what to think, either about the bible, or indeed, about anything else?


  • #131
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,611 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Ultravid wrote: »
    This is going round in circles and it is obvious we will not agree any time soon.
    This thread is not going around in circles. The only issue is you plugging your church-backed anti-gay agenda, in the hope that it somehow distracts from the issues that belong in this thread.

    If you had any interest in a real discussion you would have read and responded to Xluna's post here.


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  • #132
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I'm going to have to wash my computer. I don't want those websites on my history tab....

    Ultravid: have you ever read a transcript called "Why can't I own Canadians?"

    Here it is.

    Dear Dr. Laura:
    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:


    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


    A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?


    Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


    Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?


    I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
    Your devoted fan,
    Jim

    Isn't that from the west wing?

    edit:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI


    Yup


  • #133
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    robindch wrote: »
    In the light of recent revelations concerning child abuse, do you seriously and totally trust the Vatican's ability to tell you what to think, either about the bible, or indeed, about anything else?

    The Magisterium infallibly teaches on matters of faith and morals, which pertain to our salvation. This is the only bit that is guaranteed. When Our Lord said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, it left a lot of scope for evil things to happen. God does not suppress our free will. All that we have seen here is the human element of the Church fail in its pastoral duties (guarding the flock) and also the wicked acts of those who are enemies of the cross of Christ and who harmed innocent members of the Church, which incidentally has happened from the very beginning. It breaks our Lord's heart, but it is the price to be paid for fee will. A God who desires our love freely given must also except when that love is spurned and evil is chosen instead. He judges it worth that price. He gave His own life for us.


  • #134
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #135
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Dades wrote: »
    This thread is not going around in circles. The only issue is you plugging your church-backed anti-gay agenda, in the hope that it somehow distracts from the issues that belong in this thread.

    If you had any interest in a real discussion you would have read and responded to Xluna's post here.

    I deliberately ignored that post as I didn't want to go there, as others had indicated they wanted that matter left unaddressed. I don't want to be banned for 'hate speech'. :rolleyes:

    Anyway I've contributed all I can at this stage.


  • #136
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Ultravid wrote: »
    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret* the bible for you

    Perhaps you could outline some alternative interpretations of a few of those points?

    I did read the links you posted. The first says that homosexuality is against "natural law", equating it with bestiality. So I'll ask again, if it's against natural law and apparently this is something that we all should "intuitively" be aware of, why does god make some people gay?

    The second is basically a long way of saying "it's unhealthy to be gay" while ignoring the irony that, of the life-shortening events a gay person is more likely to succumb to, suicide following depression is pretty high on the list. I wonder why a gay person might feel depression or angst or torture over their natural sexual preference?


  • #137
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Ultravid wrote: »
    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret

    If I was a primary school teacher I would expect the children to write in a manner that was clear, concise, unambiguous and consistent. I would hope that I would not have to employ teams of exegisists to "interpret" what the child really meant because simply reading their homework gives the impression that they approve of a great many things that we consider both horrifically immoral and ridiculous.

    And since I can reasonably expect that of a five year old child, I think it's the very least I should ask of an omnipotent, omniscient and all round perfect being. Can you imagine how good the bible could be if it was actually written by a god, instead of a pack of primitive goat herders?


  • #138
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #139
    pinksoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,737 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    Ultravid wrote: »
    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret* the bible for you: you end up with a lot of misguided nonsense and the plethora of protestant sects (over 30,000 at the last count, and many of them, despite their best efforts, coming across as wacky fundamentalists with nothing but bible verses to oppose the evils overcoming this world). The Catholic Church was appointed by God to interpret the bible authoritatively. The Catholic Faith is the faith of the Incarnate Word of God. We are people of the Incarnate Word, not people of the book, which is why we have reason and natural law to back up what God has revealed to us in Scripture, instead of simply bandying about bible verses. I suggest you read the links I gave previously which provide a solid foundation for Catholic teaching.


    * http://scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
    The more I read, the more I believe that I'm actually a brain in a vat in some mad scientists laboratory.


  • #140
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Oh dear. Sorry I can't leave that comment unchallenged.

    What religions with a more enlightened approach are you referring to? Have you statistics for that? Names of thriving, enlightened groups? I think you will find that all Christian groups outside the Catholic Church experience this same problem. The Church receives more attention for it and quite rightly so. Additionally you will find that Christian groups which have spurned the true Gospel and traditional sexual morality (for at the end of the day, it all comes down to sex) are dying.


  • #141
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I did read the links you posted. The first says that homosexuality is against "natural law", equating it with bestiality

    I always wonder how people who think homosexuality is against the natural law actually get their opinions on the internet, what with living in caves and shunning everything man has ever made that overrules the natural law


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  • #142
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Ultravid wrote: »
    Oh dear. Sorry I can't leave that comment unchallenged.

    What religions with a more enlightened approach are you referring to? Have you statistics for that? Names of thriving, enlightened groups? I think you will find that all Christian groups outside the Catholic Church experience this same problem. The Church receives more attention for it and quite rightly so. Additionally you will find that Christian groups which have spurned the true Gospel and traditional sexual morality (for at the end of the day, it all comes down to sex) are dying.

    Apparently the fastest growing religion in America is Wicca:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

    The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% from 1990.


  • #143
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,611 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I deliberately ignored that post as I didn't want to go there, as others had indicated they wanted that matter left unaddressed. I don't want to be banned for 'hate speech'. :rolleyes:
    We forgive us if we interpret your deliberate ignoring of that post as evidence of your discomfort with the logic of it. You haven't been censured in anything else you've said.

    icon4.gif

    Clearly the gay issue is a red herring, so perhaps we can all drop it for now.

    It would be a shame to ruin this thread dedicated to Il Papa, with lots of off topic Leviticus related nonsense. :)


  • #144
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Isn't that from the west wing?

    edit:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI


    Yup

    Didn't realise that. I've always thought it was a letter to a radio station. Maybe the writer was a West Wing fan?


  • #145
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    doctoremma wrote: »

    I did read the links you posted. The first says that homosexuality is against "natural law", equating it with bestiality. So I'll ask again, if it's against natural law and apparently this is something that we all should "intuitively" be aware of, why does god make some people gay?

    The second is basically a long way of saying "it's unhealthy to be gay" while ignoring the irony that, of the life-shortening events a gay person is more likely to succumb to, suicide following depression is pretty high on the list. I wonder why a gay person might feel depression or angst or torture over their natural sexual preference?

    God doesn't make anyone 'gay':

    http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html


  • #146
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ultravid wrote: »
    robindch wrote:
    In the light of recent revelations concerning child abuse, do you seriously and totally trust the Vatican's ability to tell you what to think, either about the bible, or indeed, about anything else?
    The Magisterium infallibly teaches on matters of faith and morals, which pertain to our salvation. This is the only bit that is guaranteed. When Our Lord said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, it left a lot of scope for evil things to happen. God does not suppress our free will. All that we have seen here is the human element of the Church fail in its pastoral duties (guarding the flock) and also the wicked acts of those who are enemies of the cross of Christ and who harmed innocent members of the Church, which incidentally has happened from the very beginning. It breaks our Lord's heart, but it is the price to be paid for fee will. A God who desires our love freely given must also except when that love is spurned and evil is chosen instead. He judges it worth that price. He gave His own life for us.
    Thank you for writing that.

    In the light of recent revelations concerning child abuse, do you seriously and totally trust the Vatican's ability to tell you what to think, either about the bible, or indeed, about anything else?


  • #147
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ultravid wrote: »
    God doesn't make anyone 'gay':

    http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

    Wow, what an unbiased and scientifically balanced source you have there.


  • #148
    Lemegeton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Lemegeton


    Ultravid wrote: »
    God makes little men, who are, because of Adam, born under the curse of original sin, but through the mercy of God, can be redeemed through Christ's death and resurrection. We therefore must struggle with concupiscence, after having been redeemed, the inclination towards evil remains, , called to do spiritual battle, we must pick up our cross each day and follow Him. For each the cross is different, it may be a physical ailment, it may be anger, it may be same-sex attractions, but most of all it is that dying to self which is called for by the Lord. The battle therefore that each one of us is called to, is the supreme spiritual battle that Adam failed to engage in before he fell. This is how God has chosen to save us. He has redeemed us, through Christ, but we must persevere to the end if we are to be saved, following in the footsteps of Christ.


    what did we say about peddling crazy talk.
    Ultravid wrote: »
    See, this is what happens when you don't have anybody to interpret* the bible for you:


    * http://scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

    thats very convenient isn't it. so what you are saying is that its not possible to make sense of the bible. it has to be explained to us and only the church has the ability to do so. Give me a break. what if someone had a different interpretation? im sure the church wouldn't have a problem with a contrasting view.... oh wait yes they do.
    Ultravid wrote: »
    God does not suppress our free will..

    no thats the job of the church.
    Ultravid wrote: »
    It breaks our Lord's heart.

    ahh so you have spoken to him then. :rolleyes:


  • #149
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Ultravid wrote: »
    God doesn't make anyone 'gay':

    http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

    Citing NARTH automatically discredits anything you have to say.


  • #150
    pinksoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,737 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    King Mob wrote: »
    Wow, what an unbiased and scientifically balanced source you have there.
    Seems pretty airtight alright.


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  • #151
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Apparently the fastest growing religion in America is Wicca:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

    The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% from 1990.

    Yeah wicca. Great. Don't they support child sacrifice?


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