That idiot, the pope

axer

The Pope also said that the weakening of faith has been a significant contributing factor leading to the sexual abuse of minors.

He called for an improved preparation both for candidates for the priesthood and religious life and of those already ordained and professed

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0216/abuse.html

The pope thinks that a weakening of the faith is one of the main reasons that lead to sexual abuse of minors and that preparation will help candidates not abuse children.

I cannot believe that this guy still hasn't an understanding of pedophilia.

Hagar

Don't they already spend something like 7 years in a seminary before the get their wings? If that doesn't prepare them I have no idea what else will.

Dades

I was all set to change the title of the thread to something less provocative... but that really is an outrageous thing to say under the circumstances.

If someone wants to defend him, by all means try.

panda100

The pictures in the paper over the last few days has just reinforced for me what a patriarchal,heirachial institution the church really is.

All those old,white haired men laying down the guidelines on how I should live? How can these people claim to lay down moral guidance when they completly seclude half of the human race.

And the picture of the bishop kissing the popes hand..... I think anyone who believes they command enough influence to have people kissing their hand is a bit disturbing.

we'llallhavetea_old

he just keeps on shocking doesn't he?

what is wrong with that man? how the feck do you get him to shut up? who lets him say these things? are priests and bishops across the world cringing with the rest of us?

panda100

Dades wrote: »

I was all set to change the title of the thread to something less provocative... but that really is an outrageous thing to say under the circumstances.

If someone wants to defend him, by all means try.

I would be very interested to hear what Christians, or anyone in general, thinks the pope meant by 'weakening of faith'?

Does he mean the collected lack of faith in the population in general, or the weakneaning of faith in the individual priests?

Is he suggesting that If people had prayed more for vocations and priests then the child abuse would have been averted?

seamus

I think it's fair to say that there is a direct correlation between the perceived "strength" of the faith and the number and severity of child sexual abuse cases; i.e. the stronger the faith is within a society, the greater the incidence of child sexual abuse amongst its clergy.

So, the pope is just plain wrong.

Galvasean

I read a piece in the Indo (yeah, i know i know) by that Quinn lackey saying how teh Pope should be commended for his courageousness in dealing with the abuse scandals.
Excuse my editorial laugh - hah! - Are we talking about the same Papa Razi who wrote to the bishops of Ireland telling them to hide the abuse and protect the church's public image at all costs? How short people's memories are.

robindch

seamus wrote: »

the pope is just plain wrong.

You are preaching to the choir on that

Pope says paedophilia a 'heinous crime'

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Zillah

It is clearly just a few bad eggs that are causing this. Individuals who lose their faith and no longer truly serve God and the Church are the ones who commit these acts. A more rigorous theological education during their early years in the seminary would surely prevent such abuse.

Zillah

Ahahaha honestly that's the best I can come up with. No really, feck the Pope. Nasty anachronistic tyrant.

iUseVi

Zillah wrote: »

It is clearly just a few bad eggs that are causing this. Individuals who lose their faith and no longer truly serve God and the Church are the ones who commit these acts. A more rigorous theological education during their early years in the seminary would surely prevent such abuse.

wobblyknees

....and the people who believe in him.

henryporter

It is truly remarkable that an organisation that preaches truth, humility and love for humankind is incapable of practicing those virtues. It's another very sad day for the victims of clerical abuse.

Hagar

If there is a God, is he stupid enough to swallow this hogwash or will He throw the (good) book at them when they die?

Zillah

henryporter wrote: »

It is truly remarkable that an organisation that preaches truth, humility and love for humankind is incapable of practicing those virtues.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

aidan24326

Galvasean wrote: »

I read a piece in the Indo (yeah, i know i know) by that Quinn lackey saying how the Pope should be commended for his courageousness in dealing with the abuse scandals.

That's pathetic. Courageous my arse.

And I don't think Quinn's memory is short at all, he is surely deliberately lying there. Either that or he's in cuckoo land.

The Mad Hatter

Zillah wrote: »

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

That was Hitler, wasn't it?

iUseVi

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

That was Hitler, wasn't it?

Yup.

axer

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

That was Hitler, wasn't it?

Joseph Goebbels

Joseph Goebbels wrote:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

There was a lot of anger on the radio this morning with the sight the bishop kissing the pope's ring.

I really don't understand how the pope can live with himself as the head of one of the weathiest organisations out there and preach about charity and about the poor. He is such a hypocrite.

rccaulfield

Is there a disturbing undertone to his comments? What is the pope saying will happen if he himself has a weakening of faith?.........
Is he also implying that atheists are all pedophiles?

garyowen

abuse survivor Andrew Madden has just given Six One News a scathing condemnation of the bishops' meeting with the Rat. I couldn't believe it when he said there were only voluntary "guidelines" - not statutory law -existing with regards to the clergy "cooperating" with the civil justice system in cases of abuse. Surely, anyone in this state who has knowledge of any crime and wilfully witholds giving information to the police about it is guilty of obstructing justice, at least, and if a planned cover-up is proven, that person, whatever his/her social status, should also be charged with perverting the course of justice.

the Sunday Tribune had a full-page news feature by Ali Bracken about a Boston based group which has listed 70 Irish pedophile priests with more names to be added. Bracken detailed how many of the perverts were given aid, comfort and assisted in continuing their filthy criminal activity by Irish bishops in the US.

The Rat's 2001 letter to ALL Catholic bishops telling them to keep clerical sex abuse cases secret from the civil authorities has been cited in a number of court cases brought by abuse survivors against the Church hierarchy. The Rat has so far avoided being successfully prosecuted by claiming diplomatic immunity as a head of state.
i.e: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-118

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/church_docs.htm
The co-signatory of that letter, Archbishop Bertone, was reported to have said in 2003:

"The demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest
WHO HAS ADMITTED THE OFFENCE OF PEDOPHILIA [my emphasis] is unfounded".

the same Archbishop Bertone who co-signed the 2001 letter with the then Cardinal Ratzinger and who was said to have made that disgraceful statement is now Cardinal Bertone, Vatican Secretary of State. His obfuscating and dissembling remarks to the Irish bishops would seem to confirm Andrew Madden's view yesterday that the Vatican will persist in its denial of ultimate responsibility for the horrors that have been committed:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0215/breaking13.htm

iUseVi

axer wrote: »

Joseph Goebbels

I stand corrected.

Zillah

rccaulfield wrote: »

Is there a disturbing undertone to his comments? What is the pope saying will happen if he himself has a weakening of faith?.........

I some how doubt that. It's like when a Christian says that as an atheist you should be out there murdering strippers and eating babies. Is your faith the only thing preventing you from eating babies? At that point they usually get uncomfortable and either leave or get angry.

Is he also implying that atheists are all pedophiles?

He is certainly implying that morality and faith are inherently entwined, and that we non-believers are therefore more susceptible to wickedness.

MrPudding

Hagar wrote: »

If there is a God, is he stupid enough to swallow this hogwash or will He throw the (good) book at them when they die?

The continued existence of the catholic church is a strong indicator to me that god does not exist. How could an all powerful, all knowing, good and just god possibly sit by and allowed this group of monsters to profess to be his representative on this earth and tell a large portion of its population how they should live their lives?

MrP

Myksyk

axer wrote: »

... with the sight of the bishop kissing the pope's ring..

:eek:

:P

Ambersky

This meeting in Rome has been done before of course, courtesy of South Park season 6 episode 608 called Red Hot Catholic Love

Italian Cardinal: Your Holiness, this is Father Maxi from America. He has brought this all to our attention.
Father Maxi: [kneels before the pope] Your Holiness. [kisses the ring and the pope moans a bit in pain. The cardinal helps the pope up to his chair, then turns amd approaches the pulpit.]
Italian Cardinal: Adoramus te, Christe.
Other Cardinals: Et dominus...
Italian Cardinal: Cardinals, bishops, and priests, an American priest by the name of-a Maxi has brought to our attention the most troubling of news. All over his-a country there are reports of children being molested by men of the Chuch. If things continue this way, we'll never be able to have sex with young boys again! [the prelates react immediately, protesting the report]
Father Maxi: That's right-wait. What?
French Cardinal: In France as well we are finding it harder and harder to... make love to our boys.
Moroccan Cardinal: In Morocco they have arrested five of my priests. It's only a matter of time before they get the rest of us.
Italian Cardinal: Father Maxi, what do you suggest we do to not get caught.
Father Maxi: Not get caught? NO!! I, I think what we should do is not have sex with boys! [the prelates protest again]
Italian Cardinal: It is not written anywhere in the Holy Document of Vatican Law that sex with-a boys is wrong..
Father Maxi: Well, maybe we need to change the Holy Document of Vatican Law. [the prelates protest even louder]

The pope did actually clarify this today and told everyone that sex with children is a sin. Funny that in real life he felt the need to clarify that.

[St. Peter's Square, day. Father Maxi is trying to get his point across]
Priest Maxi: Look, people! I'm just trying to say that if we don't change the Holy Document of Vatican Law, then we might lose everyone to atheism!
French Cardinal: What exactly do you suggest we change, Father Maxi.
Priest Maxi: Well, for one, no sex with boys. [the prelates protest even louder]
Another Cardinal: The Holy Document of Vatican Law states that a priest, bishop, or cardinal cannot get married, so where are we to get our sex?
Priest Maxi: Uh well then, perhaps we could change the Holy Document of Vatican Law to say that... it's okay for a priest or bishop or cardinal to have sex... with women. [the prelates protest even louder]
French Cardinal: Women?

The clergy mill around in the ruins of the Vatican.]
Italian Cardinal: Gone! It's all gone!
British Cardinal: Well, thanks a lot, Father Maxi. You've killed our religion
...No I didn't! All that's dead are your stupid laws and rules! [the scene is being telecast] You've forgotten what being a Catholic is all about. [raises a Bible] This... book. You see, these are just stories. [the Marshes are gathered on the sofa to watch this. Grandpa is asleep in his wheelchair] Stories that are meant to help people in the right direction. Love your neighbor. Be a good person. [the Williams are watching] That's it! And when you start turning the stories into literal translations of hierarchies and power, well... Well, you end up with this. [shows off the ruins, and then the Queen Spider, then the Gelgameks] People are losing faith because they don't see how what you've turned the religion into applies to them! They've lost touch with any idea of any kind of religion, and when they have no mythology to try and live their lives by, well, they just start spewing a bunch of crap out of their mouths! [The Tweeks are watching. Richard seems to have crapped out of his mouth]
Richard: [pause, then looks up] ...What was that last bit?
Priest Maxi: Look, I, I'm proud to be a Catholic. But I'm a Catholic in the real world. In today's world! It's time for you all to do that, too. It is time... for change.
[Stan's house, after the telecast]
Randy: [after a moment of reflection] He's right, Sharon. We don't have to believe every word of the Bible. They're just stories to help us to live by. We shouldn't toss away the lessons of the Bible just because some assholes in Italy screwed it up.

Ickle Magoo

Nothing the pope does surprises me, disappoints yes, but no surprise. If anything I am surprised that there isn't more abuse and corruption at ground level given the lackadaisical and protectionist attitudes from the Vatican...seems like the perfect place for paedophiles to fit in, plenty of access to children by overly trusting parishioners, no-one wondering why you're not married, protection from Rome if discovered and the guarantee of full pension even if convicted. Nice one. :rolleyes:

PeterIanStaker

Dont know if I'd be suprised or dissapointed by all this, I fully expected that creepy old ex - Nazi to come out with this kind of hogwash. And the worst thing is that he has his adherents over here (not to mention the rest of the world) who still cling to this anachronistic if not downright daft notion of infallibility.

eoin5

I dont see any artistic merit in this thread, I think we could be on for it!

Ultravid

axer wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0216/abuse.html

The pope thinks that a weakening of the faith is one of the main reasons that lead to sexual abuse of minors and that preparation will help candidates not abuse children.

I cannot believe that this guy still hasn't an understanding of pedophilia.

I knew this would be misinterpreted.

The weakening of the faith refers firstly, imho, to the Bishops: when bishops lose faith they act like managers, not shepherds. Managers protect the company, shepherds guard the flock. Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

You have to try to see this through the eyes of faith. If you believe, then you will know that bishops are especially under attack by Satan and prone to making really bad decisions, especially if their own faith is weak, which comes about through personal neglect, but also cos of the pants formation many of these men received in the wacky days post Vatican 2. IF Church morals and Canon Law had been followed and the faith actually lived from the heart, none of this would have happened. Instead, liberalism, modernism, and dissent became widespread, and still to this day. This is really quite relevant:
http://www.chastitysf.com/q_guide.htm and this: http://www.chastitysf.com/q_church.htm and these all show that really, we've all got ourselves to blame. Catholics in Ireland, in my view, bear a corporate guilt for what has happened; though the great blame ultimately rests with bishops, I am sure there were many other people who failed in their duties.

For an intelligent discussion of this, with some interesting contributions, you can see here, but be warned: Father Z does not tolerate fools, and you must be registered to post on his site, which requires prior approval:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/02/irish-bishops-should-restore-credibility-through-penance-in-lent/

Ultravid

Zillah wrote: »

He is certainly implying that morality and faith are inherently entwined, and that we non-believers are therefore more susceptible to wickedness.

It's interesting that you should say that, because, although some members of the clergy did evil things, the Church teaches that what they did was indeed evil, whereas some of the most vitriolic haters of the Church are the same ones who would wheel baby-killing into Ireland in the morning, if they could, and and they are of course trying. Whilst the Church says this baby-killing is actually evil, the proponents may go so far as to describe it as 'sacred work'. I kid you not: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/dec/09120402.html

The problem here is the teachings of a religion not being followed by its members. The teaching itself is not the problem.

eoin5

Ultravid wrote: »

There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

So youre saying that those children deserved to be raped. Holy cráp.

strobe

Ultravid wrote: »

Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

Dude....................

strobe

Ultravid wrote: »

I knew this would be misinterpreted.

The weakening of the faith refers firstly, imho, to the Bishops: when bishops lose faith they act like managers, not shepherds. Managers protect the company, shepherds guard the flock. Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

You have to try to see this through the eyes of faith. If you believe, then you will know that bishops are especially under attack by Satan and prone to making really bad decisions, especially if their own faith is weak, which comes about through personal neglect, but also cos of the pants formation many of these men received in the wacky days post Vatican 2. IF Church morals and Canon Law had been followed and the faith actually lived from the heart, none of this would have happened. Instead, liberalism, modernism, and dissent became widespread, and still to this day. This is really quite relevant:
http://www.chastitysf.com/q_guide.htm and this: http://www.chastitysf.com/q_church.htm and these all show that really, we've all got ourselves to blame. Catholics in Ireland, in my view, bear a corporate guilt for what has happened; though the great blame ultimately rests with bishops, I am sure there were many other people who failed in their duties.

For an intelligent discussion of this, with some interesting contributions, you can see here, but be warned: Father Z does not tolerate fools, and you must be registered to post on his site, which requires prior approval:
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/02/irish-bishops-should-restore-credibility-through-penance-in-lent/

I really am in utter astonishment. I re-read that 5 or 6 times to be sure the early hour of the morning wasn't playing tricks with my mind. You are the human embodiment of everything that is wrong with religion. Congratulations because it takes some fukking doing to win that title. That's all I'm going to type in response untill tomorow as this is an expensive laptop and I'm on the verge of kicking it round the room after reading that.

Zillah

Ultravid wrote: »

Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

Catholics in Ireland, in my view, bear a corporate guilt for what has happened; though the great blame ultimately rests with bishops, I am sure there were many other people who failed in their duties.

Let me state this as clearly as I can so there can be no misunderstanding: The people who are at fault are the priests who raped children and the individuals who helped them get away with it.

Anything else is just staggering idiocy.

If you believe, then you will know that bishops are especially under attack by Satan and prone to making really bad decisions

It is when I read sentences like this that I truly grasp just how large a divide there is between myself and the faithful. This...incomprehensible lunacy and magical word play in the face of viscerally real and appalling crimes just makes me feel ashamed of my species. Grow up already, you can't keep blaming everything on the boogeyman.

IF Church morals and Canon Law had been followed and the faith actually lived from the heart, none of this would have happened. Instead, liberalism, modernism, and dissent became widespread, and still to this day.

Please explain how liberalism and modernism contributed to Catholic priests raping children?

whereas some of the most vitriolic haters of the Church are the same ones who would wheel baby-killing into Ireland in the morning, if they could

You mean allowing women to control their own bodies? Yes, I too think I have the right to decide what happens inside women's reproductive organs.

robindch

strobe wrote: »

sweet fukking jesus....

Strong feelings are understandable, but let's try to keep language to a minimum. Thanks.

Zillah wrote: »

Let me state this as clearly as I can so there can be no misunderstanding: The people who are at fault are the priests who raped children and the individuals who helped them get away with it.

This says all that needs to be said.

Anything else -- including the pope's comments and his supporters' similarly mealy-mouthed remarks -- are denials of fact and of responsibility.

pH

Ultravid wrote: »

Catholics in Ireland, in my view, bear a corporate guilt for what has happened; though the great blame ultimately rests with bishops, I am sure there were many other people who failed in their duties.

That bit I agree with, if people weren't so gullible and hadn't allowed a self-serving power-hungry organisation the status and control it was given then all this wouldn't have happened.

Still it's not *just* the individual acts of sexual child-abuse carried out by priests, there's still the systematic institutional abuse and torture of children by your religious orders to consider.

Your sick woman and child hating morality which lead to the horrors of the Magdellan laundries was not the failing or one or two individuals, it lays bare the callousness, spitefulness and awfulness of your entire 'faith' and organisation.

strobe

robindch wrote: »

Strong feelings are understandable, but let's try to keep language to a minimum.

edited.

Sam Vimes

Ultravid wrote: »

Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

Jesus _______ christ man

Edit: swear word erased at robin's request

fatmammycat

"The weakening of the faith refers firstly, imho, to the Bishops: when bishops lose faith they act like managers, not shepherds. Managers protect the company, shepherds guard the flock. Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve."


Truly and utterly pathetic.:mad:

Mitch Connor

fatmammycat wrote: »

"The weakening of the faith refers firstly, imho, to the Bishops: when bishops lose faith they act like managers, not shepherds. Managers protect the company, shepherds guard the flock. Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve."


Truly and utterly pathetic.:mad:

so really the victims of abuse should be appologising to the church, for not praying hard enough and not being deserving of better than they got.

it is a pathetic notion, isn't it.

axer

Ultravid wrote: »

I knew this would be misinterpreted.

The weakening of the faith refers firstly, imho, to the Bishops: when bishops lose faith they act like managers, not shepherds. Managers protect the company, shepherds guard the flock. Secondly, the lay people failed in their obligations too - did they pray for their priests and bishops? There is a saying that the people get the priests they deserve.

No it has not been misinterpreted. You have just proven my point and shown how stupid the pope is (and the reason why religion is dangerous) by his complete lack of understanding of pedophilia.

Priests raping and torturing children has NOTHING to do with prayer or faith.
The hierarchy of the catholic church covering up this abuse and allowing it to continue has NOTHING to do with prayer or faith.

fatmammycat

Mitch Connor wrote: »

so really the victims of abuse should be appologising to the church, for not praying hard enough and not being deserving of better than they got.

it is a pathetic notion, isn't it.

I know, I can't believe anyone would think something like that.

Hagar

I reckon God is gonna fnck those bastards up when they die. Do they not even read their own Bible?

Jesus wrote:

From Matt 18:1-6

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become
as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

axer

Hagar wrote: »

I reckon God is gonna fnck those bastards up when they die.

but there is no god Are you a closet thiest?

Lemegeton

hahahah lol. that guy is so funny with the ****e he comes out with. he should do stand up. while there he could tell the one about how the harry potter books are demonic and anti-catholic because it depicts magic and witchcraft and then explain how every sunday a priest turns bread into the body of a 2000 year old man by waving his hand over it and uttering a set phrase.

that one always gets me

Ultravid wrote: »

I knew this would be misinterpreted.

ah yes that old argument. everytime the church or the vatican makes a statement we are the ones who misinterpret them. or maybe we are applying logic and rationality to statements that make no sense.

Ultravid wrote: »

For an intelligent discussion of this

contradiction in terms right there. Religious people are incapable of intelligent debate

Naz_st

Ultravid wrote: »

You have to try to see this through the eyes of faith

Ah, faith, the key to religion and panacea to all our woes: keep believing ludicrous things, and all the problems of rationality and responsibility melt away. God has a plan. He works in mysterious ways. Faith.

Why don't you take off your rose-tinted faith goggles and look at it through the eyes of reason, justice and humanity instead: what you see is a powerful, rich and corrupt organisation whose members were elevated to a position of trust, and who used that trust to abuse and torture the most vulnerable people in our society, and who were aided in this by the religious hierarchy.

If anything, "faith" compounded the problem and provided the power and trust that enabled the abuse to continue and spread.

cavedave

Ultravid

but be warned: Father Z does not tolerate fools

That is not very Christian is it?