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Attitudes to Porn... Mod Warning Post 719

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Comments

  • #692
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. It's impact on relationships.
    2. It's impact on the participants.
    3. It's impact on the way that people regard others. (Sexual objectification)

    I hope this clarifies it. I don't regard porn as fine at all.

    but, it has been pointed out to you that just because it has the potential to have a particular impact on some relationships/participants/views of people, doesnt mean it has that impact on ALL relationships etc.


    that may be uncomfortable reading for you, but its true.

    so, like others have asked, is all alcohol bad, because of its potential to ruin physical health, mental health and personal lives?

    what about all cars? road traffic accidents are devastating - are all cars therefore a bad idea? should the safe driver be tarred with the same brush as teh drunken uninsured unlicenced unqualified driver?


  • #693
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't determine anything for anyone.

    sorry dude, but you do. I'm saying that there's a situation where everyone is fine with what they are doing, and you're saying that they are not fine, they only think they are fine.


  • #694
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't determine anything for anyone. Make of that what you will, but it certainly isn't agreement with moral relativism. I'm prohibited on giving anything further than this, and I respect Silverfish's warning.
    Well your moral relativism isnt the be all/end all in anyones head except yours. You just cant seem to comprehend that.


  • #695
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I've given 3 reasons if you look at the quote :)

    you forgot the word "potential" in each of the three reasons ;)


  • #696
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sam34 - You're not realising, that it isn't just reason 1 in isolation. It is all three reasons in conjunction. There are 2 other reasons. I don't think I've said once that porn should be illegal, but rather that it should be regarded as immoral. There's a difference.

    tbh - If my moral standard exists external to myself, then it isn't me who is legislating for anyone. It would be another legislator. That's my view. I'm not going any further than that.

    I wouldn't think that point 3 is potential, but actual.


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  • #697
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.

    Right... well you have to understand that a lot of people don't view sex as some sacred act. I think this is where your confusion is coming from. For a lot of people it is a process to feel physical pleasure, for both men and women, and can be, nothing more than this.


  • #698
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    sam34 - You're not realising, that it isn't just reason 1 in isolation. It is all three reasons in conjunction. There are 2 other reasons. I don't think I've said once that porn should be illegal, but rather that it should be regarded as immoral. There's a difference.

    tbh - If my moral standard exists external to myself, then it isn't me who is legislating for anyone. It would be another legislator. That's my view. I'm not going any further than that.

    I wouldn't think that point 3 is potential, but actual.

    I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, just expose you to another point of view, as you have for me. Mutual respect all round jakkass, I get it from you and I give it back :) enjoyable discussion as always


  • #699
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    tbh wrote: »
    enjoyable discussion as always
    For you maybe.Im after headbutting my desk so much I think I have a concussion :pac:


  • #700
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Jakkass wrote: »
    but rather that it should be regarded as immoral.

    Just so I'm sure on this point, is sex between an unmarried man and woman also immoral? Or is merely the act of recording and broadcasting it immoral?


  • #701
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    sam34 - You're not realising, that it isn't just reason 1 in isolation. It is all three reasons in conjunction. There are 2 other reasons. I don't think I've said once that porn should be illegal, but rather that it should be regarded as immoral. There's a difference.
    I wouldn't think that point 3 is potential, but actual.

    what? i'm not saying it is any reason in isolation - i'm saying that porn dooesnt necessarily have a negative impact on ANY OR ALL of relationships, participants and peoples views of others.

    not sure why you think i was saying anything about any of them in isolation.

    what has legality got to do with my post?

    i asked you if, using your own logic, you thus thought alcohol was wrong and that use of cars was bad.

    i said nothing about these things being made illegal.

    i regard someone who drinks to excess to the detriment of their health, their relationships, their family's finances ect to be immoral.
    i dont regard someone who drinks sensible amounts without it impacting on the above to be immoral.

    but you seem to regard all porn as immoral, because it has potential to impact negatively on things.

    so i want to know how consistently you apply that to other things that carry a similar potential.


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  • #702
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Just so I'm sure on this point, is sex between an unmarried man and woman also immoral? Or is merely the act of recording and broadcasting it immoral?

    I'd regard both as being such. I've explained that earlier too. Read back a few pages.


  • #703
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. It's impact on relationships.

    A lot of couples use porn to improve or add to their sex lives. A good sex life can lead to a better relationship overall.

    2. It's impact on the participants.

    A lot of participants benefit a lot from porn. There is a massive amount of money in porn and the participants are fully aware of this and take advantage of this.
    3. It's impact on the way that people regard others. (Sexual objectification)
    I look at porn and it's never led me to view the women i know and meet as sexual objects. I always treat women with respect and as equals rather than as sex objects.

    Your objections don't really hold water.


  • #704
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Ultimate Chin wrote: »
    For you maybe.Im after headbutting my desk so much I think I have a concussion :pac:

    lol :) - in that case you're guilty of what jakkass is being accused of tho, UC, in that your definition of success is getting him to change his mind. It's fine that he thinks differently, and it's fine that he may never agree with you. It doesn't negate the validity of your own opinion, you know?


  • #705
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    tbh wrote: »
    lol :) - in that case you're guilty of what jakkass is being accused of tho, UC, in that your definition of success is getting him to change his mind. It's fine that he thinks differently, and it's fine that he may never agree with you. It doesn't negate the validity of your own opinion, you know?
    Its not really that.Opinions are grand, fcuk knows ive plenty of my own.Its the talking in riddles causing the headbutting


  • #706
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    A lot of couples use porn to improve or add to their sex lives. A good sex life can lead to a better relationship overall.

    Are you denying that pornography can and does cause marital strain? In addition to that, why is it necessary when one can be attracted by their partner solely?
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    A lot of participants benefit a lot from porn. There is a massive amount of money in porn and the participants are fully aware of this and take advantage of this.

    This is part of what I mean by financial coercion, although perhaps in a subtler way.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I look at porn and it's never led me to view the women i know and meet as sexual objects. I always treat women with respect and as equals rather than as sex objects.

    So, do you not think there is any impact of watching something on what one thinks or does afterwards?
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Your objections don't really hold water.

    We'll see about this.


  • #707
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'd regard both as being such.

    Then your argument for objectification, exploitation, coercion... etc, is moot.

    You view the mere act of unrecorded unmarried sex alone as immoral so everything under that broad umbrella will also be viewed in turn as immoral.

    You really have no legs to stand on in arguing the morality of pornography as you are coming at the argument with a biased understanding of the entire sexual act itself.

    You don't have a problem with pornography, you have a problem with sex between humans and when it should and should not happen. You are no different to an individual that finds sex between different races immoral, and have equal amounts of personal justification for your position.


  • #708
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Then your argument for objectification, exploitation, coercion... etc, is moot.

    You're right, that involves external matters. It's still valid, but there are other considerations to be taken into account. Fair point.


  • #709
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Are you denying that pornography can and does cause marital strain?

    it has the potential to do so. it also has the potential not to do so.

    which brings me back to my question about alcohol - because it has teh potential to cause marital strain (and also not to cause it), is all alcohol consumption therefore wrong?

    Jakkass wrote: »
    In addition to that, why is it necessary when one can be attracted by their partner solely?

    and this brings me back to a point i made yesterday which went unanswered.

    when one can be attracted to ones partner and have sex in teh missionary position with lights off solely, why do we do anything else at all.... turning on the lights, changing positions, wearing nice lingerie, is all technically unnecessary and is done to enhance pleasure... should we cut out all that too?


  • #710
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Are you denying that pornography can and does cause marital strain? In addition to that, why is it necessary when one can be attracted by their partner solely?

    I'm not denying it but it would be rare. A marriage that is deemed to fail because of pornography probably has other underlying problems anyway.

    As for why pornography is necessary, when some people are in a relationship for a long time they may feel the need to add more excitement to their sex lives to keep it enjoyable. Porn may be one of the ways they choose to do this as well as various other methods.


    This is part of what I mean by financial coercion, although perhaps in a subtler way.

    I don't buy into this "financial coercion" argument. By your logic every job is a form of "financial coercion" as we have to do them to earn money. If someone accepts payment to do something they are choosing to do it of their own free will. There are many ways to earn money. Porn pays a lot of money and some people decide this is how they want to earn their money.

    So, do you not think there is any impact of watching something on what one thinks or does afterwards?

    From my personal experience no. I have watched violent films, played violent games etc and it has no effect on my behaviour as i can seperate these things from reality as can most other people. If someone is unable to do this they may be suffering from a mental condition which may become a problem regardless.


  • #711
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sam34: There's no difference between what you've described and porn? I'd say that's a bit of a stretch.

    I'm going to bow out of the discussion. I've made my position clear as to why I agree with the article. Thanks to all who were willing to have a calm discussion, and thanks to the mods for being patient.


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  • #712
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    sam34: There's no difference between what you've described and porn? I'd say that's a bit of a stretch.

    they're on the same spectrum.

    i want to see if you are consistent in your argument of "why should you need to use it (porn) if you can solely have pleasure with your partner"- do you apply that logic to other means of enhancing a couples sex life, or is it just porn?

    (and if it is just porn, then it is clear your above argument is a smokescreen for your fundamental belief that porn is bad, and you will try anything to justify that)


  • #713
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Jakkass wrote: »
    sam34: There's no difference between what you've described and porn? I'd say that's a bit of a stretch.

    I'm going to bow out of the discussion. I've made my position clear as to why I agree with the article. Thanks to all who were willing to have a calm discussion, and thanks to the mods for being patient.

    Which is an easy way of saying "I have no hope of contradicting myself over all my previous arguments so I'm going to leave now"

    In regards to what and isnt immoral, the preference of porn over a marital partner would be immoral, but porn itself wouldnt be, same as a husband who would rather spend his days playing golf instead of spending time with his wife, or a wife who would rather spend her days out shopping and getting herself and her family into debt rather than being at home with her kids or at work, that doesnt make porn, golf and shopping immoral just the people who prioritise them over their partners

    Oh and as for your previous quote:
    Moderate drinking doesn't involve the sexual objectification of other people. Pornography thrives on it.

    HA! go into ANY pub on any weekend in any town in the country and tell me that people with a few drinks on them doint sexually objectify people of the opposite sex


  • #714
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    1sittingduck wrote: »
    Where's that "hug" emoticon when I want it?! :rolleyes:
    *hug*
    thanks duckie!
    AARRRGH wrote: »
    Your opinions on this subject are extreme, and you are trying to validate your beliefs by finding others who share your own extreme opinions.

    You don't simply dislike porn, your feelings and opinions are a lot stronger than that.
    others do share my opinion it is brillant! no need to worry i'm not going to burn peoples porn collection!
    Kimia wrote: »
    Serena, seriously, why won't you respond to all the women that have told you straight out that they like watching porn and they haven't been pressured into it by their boyfriends/husbands??

    Truthfully - you have said over and over that if someone watches porn whilst in a relationship, then there must be something wrong with that relationship and that the husband must have pressured the wife into watching the porn (plaster over bullet wound i think you called it).

    What response do you have then do the women (like sam for example) or me ! when we say, maybe we just like watching porn?
    i am confused why is it asked of me why women watch porn with their husband and when i guess the reason posters get p*ssed off! what do you want me to say? i don't know why women would want to do that! if you are in a loving relationship why would you need to? maybe if your husband is fat/middle aged and you are lonely? i don't know why don't you tell me, sam hasn't told me much apart from 'it spices things up'.

    Sam i didnt quote you but seriously it feels like you have a personal thing against me you are constantly complaining about me during this thread and don't see how this is fair. i said i don't use a vibrator (personal choice) and dont care if other women do, you are twisting my words. Read my quote again i said i dont use them and dont judge women that do. Why would this offend you?


  • #715
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    http://www.seductionlabs.org/2008/11/13/do-porn-stars-set-a-bad-example/ read article


  • #716
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    serenacat wrote: »
    if you are in a loving relationship why would you need to? maybe if your husband is fat/middle aged and you are lonely? i don't know why don't you tell me, sam hasn't told me much apart from 'it spices things up'.

    I'm starting to think you are trolling now.


  • #717
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    serenacat wrote: »
    http://www.seductionlabs.org/2008/11/13/do-porn-stars-set-a-bad-example/ read article
    Nothing but assumptions as pointed out in almost every comment below the article.Are you just googling for "porn is bad" and picking any result you find?


  • #718
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    serenacat wrote: »
    if you are in a loving relationship why would you need to? maybe if your husband is fat/middle aged and you are lonely?

    Earlier:
    i am slating porn not the people who watch it i haven't said anything about the people that watch it

    I'm not sure are if you a troll, a moron, or a hypocrite.

    P.


  • #719
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Ultimate Chin wrote: »
    Nothing but assumptions as pointed out in almost every comment below the article.Are you just googling for "porn is bad" and picking any result you find?

    just something i found, no i am googling anything to do with porn.


  • #720
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    There are accusations of trolling and name-calling beginning to appear on this thread. It's a highly emotive topic and I'd ask everyone to keep it civil. If you can't, then don't post.


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  • #721
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    serenacat wrote: »
    i am confused why is it asked of me why women watch porn with their husband and when i guess the reason posters get p*ssed off! what do you want me to say? i don't know why women would want to do that! if you are in a loving relationship why would you need to? maybe if your husband is fat/middle aged and you are lonely? i don't know why don't you tell me, sam hasn't told me much apart from 'it spices things up'.

    noone is asking you why women watch porn with their husbands. people are asking you what your response is to women who say that they do that, and like doing it, given that you have claimed they cant enjoy it and must be pressured into doing it.

    since you're asking, i watch porn because ******drum roll***** i like watching porn. it turns me on. i watch it with my partner it is because it turns us both on. when watching it together we can do things to each other and fulfill some of the others fantasies... doing that for someone is very loving and romantic, imo.

    serenacat wrote: »
    Sam i didnt quote you but seriously it feels like you have a personal thing against me you are constantly complaining about me during this thread and don't see how this is fair. i said i don't use a vibrator (personal choice) and dont care if other women do, you are twisting my words. Read my quote again i said i dont use them and dont judge women that do. Why would this offend you?

    yes, actually, you did quote a post of mine, and then you complained that you were being labelled boring. now, i never called you boring, but the manner in which you quoted my post then threw that accustaion out there made it look like you were accusing me of that. i dont care what you do in terms of your sex life, i really couldnt give a flying f*ck, its none of my business. thats the difference between us - i dont judge you for what you do or dont do sexually, whereas you, on the other hand, judge me.

    "constantly complaining" about you? boohoo. firstly, i'm not constantly complaining about you. secondly, if you post the stuff you post, including teh personal and moral judgements, you gotta expect a reaction.

    don't dish it out if you cant take it.

    get out of the kitchen if you cant stand the heat

    etc

    you do judge women that use vibrators- you think that there should be no need for one in a relationship. thats a judgement right there.

    do you understand that if you make a judgement, then follow it up with "i'm not judging anyone", that doesnt actually negate the judgement you've made?


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