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Attitudes to Porn... Mod Warning Post 719

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Comments

  • #662
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote:
    I can relate to all those who I disagree with on this thread. Why? Precisely because I used to regard it the exact same way as they did.
    I knew id seen you talk about your age before.Youre only 20 so this statement is really pure nonsense. Theres no way in hell you used to regard porn the way a lot of people here do now.
    Youre simply too young to have ever had the full understanding of this the way you seem to believe you do especially since you think you thought the way everyone here does about porn but now have an understanding of the completely opposite side of the spectrum.These take years to get so unless you started watching porn with a clear understanding of everything that can get people off at the age of 10,stop saying you used to think the exact same way as everyone you disagree with.


  • #663
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ The typical type of ad-hominem I was expecting.

    I was certainly a lot more liberal about the subject a few years ago.

    I find it amazing the way that people are more interested in attacking the poster, than dealing with the content.


  • #664
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    My attitudes are right.

    according to....?


  • #665
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The only reasons I'm permitted to post, look back over the last few pages if you want more context. These are the main negative affects that it has.

    Ok, so if watch porn and don't get addicted to it, and it doesn't cause any problems in my marriage, that's fine right? Just like moderate drinking? Please confirm.


  • #666
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tbh wrote: »
    according to....?

    Answer that for yourself, I'm not allowed to comment on it here due to what the moderators have advised.
    tbh wrote:
    Ok, so if watch porn and don't get addicted to it, and it doesn't cause any problems in my marriage, that's fine right? Just like moderate drinking? Please confirm.

    Moderate drinking doesn't involve the sexual objectification of other people. Pornography thrives on it.

    I've basically been through the entire content of my opposition to it. I'd like to thank the people who were courteous in the discussion, and I'd like to thank the moderators for keeping it under control.

    I'd like to make clear that my intention was never to offend anyone, but I guess being anti-pornography is offensive in itself.


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  • #667
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Moderate drinking doesn't involve the sexual objectification of other people. Pornography thrives on it.

    And what's wrong with that? Some people LIKE to be objectified sexually. Just because you can't accept/understand that, it doesn't mean it's not true, it also doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with it.


  • #668
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    It doesn't respect who someone is, but rather thrives on what someone is. I believe people should be respected as individuals, not treated as objects. I quoted a favoured philosopher of mine who I don't always agree with, but he said that people should be treated not as means but as ends. I'd agree with this view highly.

    tbh - I believe there is something wrong with the fundamental idea of it. Again, if you're going to hold to the view of there being no moral right and wrongs (absolutes) then we are not going to agree at all. Our concepts differ entirely.


  • #669
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You're going in the opposite direction now. Not all marriages face this problem, but a lot of them do. The mere fact that this article is published is testament to the problems it can cause within marriage.

    A lot of them do? Linkee please.

    If you are going argue that porn is wrong because it causes problems within a number of marriages then the mirror argument is that there is nothing wrong with porn because it causes no problem to a number of marriages.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You know I call it wrong not only for the problems it can cause within marriage, but the sexual objectification of other human beings.

    If you are going to discuss, leave out the "smoke screen" accusations? They aren't helpful.

    And neither is calling porn "wrong" or suggesting it damages "a lot" of relationships. I repeat, literally thousands of things cause problems within a relationship - the two biggest being the people in it and how they CHOOSE to behave.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    All porn objectifies women, porn can cause issues in marriages, people can become addicted to it. That's my viewpoint on the matter.

    Porn objectifies men too, some women like to be objectified, it doesn't cause issues in many marriages and porn addiction is in the minority. I appreciate that's your viewpoint but it's a poor argument for ALL porn being wrong for ALL people - which is your argument. If people had kept this to being about them and their own personal opinions then the thread would have died on page 8.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Fun and enjoyment is a separate thing from ethics and morality. Sometimes doing the right thing means that people will do things differently.

    Which is yet another veiled ad-hominem and the attitude that is causing the friction. Who are you to declare what is the right thing or what ethics or morality the rest of the world must live their lives by?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm not "threatened" by it, I just don't want anything to do with porn. I can live my life authentically without it.

    So can I, it all comes down to choice. I can live my life authentically and use porn sometimes - yet another personal attack. You choose not to & that is your prerogative but not grounds to suggest porn is "wrong".
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Rhetorical question != Personal attack

    What? Personal attack? Rhetorical question? What are you talking about? You make statements about ad-hominems & personal comments when it suits while completely ignoring the insults thrown in the opposite direction. Seriously now. Same old, same old. :rolleyes:


  • #670
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I believe people should be respected as individuals, not treated as objects.

    again, some people like to be treated as objects. And I don't agree that everybody who works in porn is treated like meat, I would imagine there is a lot of mutual respect involved. I know that might be hard for you to get your head around, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    but the fact that you cannot accept that a transaction which doesn't affect you, and is mutually beneficial to all concerned, is fine - that's what is causing antagonism.


  • #671
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It doesn't respect who someone is, but rather thrives on what someone is. I believe people should be respected as individuals, not treated as objects. I quoted a favoured philosopher of mine who I don't always agree with, but he said that people should be treated not as means but as ends. I'd agree with this view highly.

    tbh - I believe there is something wrong with the fundamental idea of it. Again, if you're going to hold to the view of there being no moral right and wrongs (absolutes) then we are not going to agree at all. Our concepts differ entirely.
    But what if "who someone is" is someone who actually enjoys the actions?Then its respecting who someone is and their wishes by taking part and carrying out what they want and enjoy.

    I just realised how many times this has been asked on this thread without a direct answer.Half tempted to spam with it to see if someone actually addresses it.


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  • #672
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »

    tbh - I believe there is something wrong with the fundamental idea of it. Again, if you're going to hold to the view of there being no moral right and wrongs (absolutes) then we are not going to agree at all. Our concepts differ entirely.

    yes, and that belief is probably down to your religion. Our concepts do differ entirely, but I would argue that I'd be more accepting of your viewpoint than you are of mine. Because I don't believe in moral absolutes, I don't think your viewpoint is right or wrong. But you DO think my acceptance of porn is wrong. That's the difference :)


  • #673
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Ultimate Chin wrote: »
    But what if "who someone is" is someone who actually enjoys the actions?Then its respecting who someone is and their wishes by taking part and carrying out what they want and enjoy.

    As long as the actions are being carried out by consenting adults, who are in a position to give that consent in an informed way, then how can be it wrong?

    Jakkass thinks it's wrong because of the nature of the act, that's what it comes down to. That is due to his morality. And that's fine. But him thinking it's wrong doesn't make it wrong.


  • #674
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tbh wrote: »
    yes, and that belief is probably down to your religion. Our concepts do differ entirely, but I would argue that I'd be more accepting of your viewpoint than you are of mine. Because I don't believe in moral absolutes, I don't think your viewpoint is right or wrong. But you DO think my acceptance of porn is wrong. That's the difference :)

    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.


  • #675
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That's what judging and a holier-than-thou attitude generally entails.

    i didnt name you, or accuse you of this.

    i was referring to serenacat.

    can i now point out to you for the FOURTH time that she has made sweeping generalisations and moral judgements of people based on her own opinion and standards, despite her claiming not to have done this.


  • #676
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.

    who are you to decide how someone deserves to be treated?

    its not a criminal issue, you are not judge and jury.

    they are consenting adults doing something they want to do.


  • #677
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.

    because you are unable to accept that some people want to be treated in a way that you would find unacceptable. (which is slightly arrogant in itself)

    It's not for you to decide how other people should interact, all you can do is pass judgement on those interactions.

    Those judgments are your personal beliefs, and may have no relevance to the people actually doing the actions.


  • #678
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.
    So youre saying that someone who actually gets off on these things has issues they dont realise and we shouldnt encourage them?:confused:


  • #679
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    sam34 wrote: »
    who are you to decide how someone deserves to be treated?

    I think all people have a human responsibility to care about how other people are treated. It's not up to me to decide, it's up to me to care.
    sam34 wrote: »
    they are consenting adults doing something they want to do.

    Not in all cases. The same argument is used for prostitution, but in a lot of cases financial coercion comes into play.
    Ultimate Chin wrote: »
    So youre saying that someone who actually gets off on these things has issues they dont realise and we shouldnt encourage them?

    Please don't try to strawman my posts.


  • #680
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Not in all cases. The same argument is used for prostitution, but in a lot of cases financial coercion comes into play.

    yes - but when it doesn't - what then? By your implication, it's only bad if the user is forced into it. If they are not forced into it, i/e they are giving informed consent, it's fine, right? Please confirm.


  • #681
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    My attitudes are right,
    tbh wrote: »
    according to....?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Answer that for yourself

    the bearded man in the sky?


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  • #682
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Please don't try to strawman my posts.
    Then explain what you mean.Youre using the same excuses over and over when someone tries to get a non-vague answer out of you


  • #683
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Not in all cases. The same argument is used for prostitution, but in a lot of cases financial coercion comes into play.

    what about the cases where they actually are consenting adults, free from financial or other coercion? is that ok?


  • #684
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.

    Which is just another way of saying I'm better than you, you don't even realise you deserve my lofty ideals - yon poor mortals. Give us a break Jackass! I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume at this stage you are so convinced that you have the only valid POV that you don't even realise how you you are coming across.

    Adults are perfectly capable of making choices, whether that be to star in or watch pornography, if their partner doesn't approve then they are perfectly capable of choosing not to watch it. What choices adults make are up to them, what lifestyle they wish to lead and what they deem as acceptable for them. At no point does your inherent dislike of pornography make pornography inherently wrong or damaging.


  • #685
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    tbh wrote: »
    yes - but when it doesn't - what then? By your implication, it's only bad if the user is forced into it. If they are not forced into it, i/e they are giving informed consent, it's fine, right? Please confirm.

    Apparently if they give informed consent they dont realise they shouldnt be unless someone can give a different meaning to this statement
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think porn is wrong in general, because I think people should be treated as they deserve to be treated even if they don't realise they deserve it.


  • #686
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tbh wrote: »
    yes - but when it doesn't - what then? By your implication, it's only bad if the user is forced into it. If they are not forced into it, i/e they are giving informed consent, it's fine, right? Please confirm.

    1. It's impact on relationships.
    2. It's impact on the participants.
    3. It's impact on the way that people regard others. (Sexual objectification)

    I hope this clarifies it. I don't regard porn as fine at all.


  • #687
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Ultimate Chin wrote: »
    Apparently if they give informed consent they dont realise they shouldnt be unless someone can give a different meaning to this statement

    which of course, raises the implication that only Jakkass is in a position to determine what desires are acceptable, morally, and what are not.

    QED.


  • #688
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. It's impact on relationships.
    2. It's impact on the participants.
    3. It's impact on the way that people regard others. (Sexual objectification)

    I hope this clarifies it. I don't regard porn as fine at all.

    what impact? The impact you assume it has? I'm here to tell you, it has not impact om my relationship, on the participants, or in the way I regard others. You just can't accept that because your religion tells you it's impossible.


  • #689
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tbh wrote: »
    which of course, raises the implication that only Jakkass is in a position to determine what desires are acceptable, morally, and what are not.

    QED.

    I don't determine anything for anyone. Make of that what you will, but it certainly isn't agreement with moral relativism. I'm prohibited on giving anything further than this, and I respect Silverfish's warning.


  • #690
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. It's impact on relationships. How?
    2. It's impact on the participants. How?
    3. It's impact on the way that people regard others. (Sexual objectification) Who?The way you regard them?I hope this clarifies it. I don't regard porn as fine at all.
    If everythings understood and consented i dont see how.

    It clarifies nothing since you havnt given a reason. We've understood you dont think its fine. Thats your opinion and nobody has a problem with that. We have a problem with you thinking your opinion is the only right one when you cant actually give a reason why it should be.


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  • #691
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I've given 3 reasons if you look at the quote :)


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