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Attitudes to Porn... Mod Warning Post 719

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Comments

  • #422
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    It damages marriages, in some cases causes disputes, and most likely causes strain to a marriage, it may even be a cause for divorce in some cases.

    If a marriage is damaged by one of the people involved watching porn then there's some much larger issues in that marriage to begin with
    The porn industry gains $50 billion dollars a year. Money which could probably be better spent rather than fuelling the sexual objectification of others.

    You could say the exact same thing about religion, money could be spent helping the worlds starving instead of lining the Vaticans pockets
    Like it or not, the woman who you are watching being slapped, gagging, having her hair pulled, and being penetrated in multiple orifices by 30 men is a real woman. She actually has an identity outside of porn—surprise! After the scene is over, she has to wash the ejaculate fluid of 30 strangers off herself, get dressed, and go back to being somebody's daughter, somebody's sister, or maybe even somebody's wife or mother. And chances are that she has not remotely enjoyed the experience you think is so hot.

    Its a job she took willingly, signed a consent form and got paid for, its not like she was plucked off the street and thrown into a room with 30 guys to have their way with her, if she was that stuck for a job she could have worked in Mcdonalds, porn actresses are for the most part very well paid, its a short term career, nobody here is decrying the objectification of the men who work in porn, who are expected to get an erection on cue like a performing monkey and get paid a lot less


  • #423
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Novella wrote: »
    She signed the consent form. She walked away with the money in her pocket.

    because she gets paid it makes it ok? don't agree with that point at all


  • #424
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    serenacat wrote: »
    because she gets paid it makes it ok? don't agree with that point at all

    I don't agree with any of yours so at least we have something in common!

    Of course it makes it ok. No one is forcing her. She's not being raped. She is just an actress of sex.


  • #425
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    krudler wrote: »
    If a marriage is damaged by one of the people involved watching porn then there's some much larger issues in that marriage to begin with



    You could say the exact same thing about religion, money could be spent helping the worlds starving instead of lining the Vaticans pockets
    if a couple need porn to spice up their relationship then they are putting a plaster on a bullet wound, porn can ruin familys as husband may get addicted to it and chose it over his wife


  • #426
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    serenacat wrote: »
    because she gets paid it makes it ok? don't agree with that point at all

    No, what makes it OK, is that she CHOSE to do it. Made a conscious decision. What is wrong iwth that?

    Are you against all these sorts of things? Fetish Clubs, Swingers? Because the women so obviously can't enjoy it. I mean when has a woman ever wanted to be a submissive?


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  • #427
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    serenacat wrote: »
    if a couple need porn to spice up their relationship then they are putting a plaster on a bullet wound, porn can ruin familys as husband may get addicted to it and chose it over his wife

    WTF?

    Firstly, BULL**** you are basing this on your imagination, nothing substantial.

    Do you think women can't be addicted to porn?

    It is VERY difficult to get addicted to porn, I have been watching it more than half my life, and look No addiction, no drive to even watch it really, I just do when I feel like it. (I am more of an erotic literature reader anyway)

    To be honest, your points make no sense in the real world.


  • #428
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    krudler wrote: »
    If a marriage is damaged by one of the people involved watching porn then there's some much larger issues in that marriage to begin with

    The view that porn is harmless doesn't really hold up.

    For example. These two situations:
    1) Married. Sexual activity between spouses alone, both entirely satisfied sexually and out of genuine romantic love for each other.
    2) Married. Sexual activity, but a lot of pornography on the side, one or both parties not entirely satisfied sexually with each other, eventually the porn doesn't satisfy. Sexuality is something that is a desire like hunger for one or both parties, and it isn't distinctly connected to romantic love.

    1 in my view is by far better, the second view is when alarm bells ring for me.
    krudler wrote: »
    You could say the exact same thing about religion, money could be spent helping the worlds starving instead of lining the Vaticans pockets

    The Roman Catholic Church is a subject for another thread. No doubt any organisation should be giving more to charity.

    The money argument is only just one. The insistence of a divorce between sexuality and romantic love and compassion is a huge problem in the Western world, and I have no doubt that this division poses one of the biggest difficulties to modern marriage.


  • #429
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    serenacat wrote: »
    if a couple need porn to spice up their relationship then they are putting a plaster on a bullet wound, porn can ruin familys as husband may get addicted to it and chose it over his wife

    woah woah woah, so anyone on here who's watched porn with a partner (me included) has some huge relationship issues? now you are getting personal, me and my girlfriend are very much in love, I would never,ever cheat on her or do anything to hurt her feelings, like I said it was HER idea we watch porn together as a bit of a thrill, and thats all it is. We have a great sex life without porn and use it very occasionally to spice things up, the same way people use lingerie or sex toys or whatever.
    And why is it always the husband who gets blamed in these things? what if a woman prefered a vibrator over her husbands affections if he wasnt doing it for her in the sack? should everyone be calling for sex toys to be banned? Why is it seen as ok for a woman to be able to enchance her sexual pleasure with a vibrator but not for a man to do it with porn?


  • #430
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is typical of what I was talking about. Calling people who have a different view of pornography to be "narrow". It's overly defensive. All XXXChurch, and other Christians do is promote marital fidelity, and purity, and I certainly feel they are right to do this.

    No, for a lot of people the whole no sex before marriage, no masturbation thing is a very narrow view of sex and morality to have - some might even say it's in the minority in our culture. What's ridiculously defensive is feeling the need to evangelise what other peoples sex lives should involve and what is healthy or normal based on some kind of religious "sin of the flesh" ideal.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The vast majority, the vast majority of people in marriages are in monogamous relationships, this is indeed the cultural norm. Pornography, under the pretext of this monogamous relationship no doubt is going to make people feel betrayed.

    I think they have a right to be betrayed, and I think it is inevitable that people will get hurt from this. It would certainly be my opinion that the encouragement of pornography merely encourages brokenness.

    Pornography may or may not be within the boundaries of particular relationships, that's for the people within those relationships to decipher. Many couples openly and freely use pornography and have no issue with it. We are all grown adults, free to make choices and decisions for ourselves.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It damages marriages, in some cases causes disputes, and most likely causes strain to a marriage, it may even be a cause for divorce in some cases.

    If ones partner is not satisfied with them, that's very hurtful.

    You're introducing a strawman now. I don't think I've suggested banning it, but I do think it is a harmful influence in our world, and I would promote the view that people should abstain from it.

    You could argue that about anything, personally I think religion is a harmful influence that everybody should abstain from but meh, some people just can't help themselves.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The porn industry gains $50 billion dollars a year. Money which could probably be better spent rather than fuelling the sexual objectification of others.

    You could say that the profits of most organisations could be better spent, religious orders included, it's entirely subjective. Some people think it's money well spent and again, as adults watching adults, it's for us to decide what is within the limits and boundaries of acceptability.

    You have to wonder how much experience some posters on here have of A) relationships and B) porn with some of the comments being made. :eek::confused:


  • #431
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is a really good ministry. They go all over the world promoting a lifestyle free from porn at porn shows, and the addiction that it can cause. Extreme is hardly the word to call these people. I think they are worthy of respect for promoting this point of view, and helping people with their problem.

    Well, since from your posts elsewhere that you are a fundamentalist or least a very a devout Christian, of course you're against porn; you couldn't be otherwise. To you, an invisible omnipotent multi-dimensional being gets upset if I stroke my penis so that white liquid comes out.

    It's a bit rich for you to pretend you're objective on the "problem" of porn.

    P.


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  • #432
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    You could argue that about anything, personally I think religion is a harmful influence that everybody should abstain from but meh, some people just can't help themselves.

    Bingo, I dont remember porn being the cause of as much homophobia, war, genocide, child abuse, murder and greed as religion and its various churches have ever been. Has a war ever been started over porn? nope, has anyone ever been taught to hate a certain minority or group of people from porn? nope. How many women and men have been in an abusive relationship with no way out because porn dictated that divorce wasnt an option for them? none. Porn wont ever come close to damaging society as much as religion can and has over the last 2 millennia


  • #433
    DancingDaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭DancingDaisy


    I know I'm jumping into a long running thread, and I will admit now to only having read snippits, so I apologise if I'm just repeating what has already been said.

    I feel that watching porn, be it as part of a couple or as an individual is the individual's/couples choice. I don't believe it can really harm a relationship unless there are underlying problems there to begin with, and the only real issue that can arise is a level of jealousy or misunderstanding between partners. As an individual I don't see a problem with watching porn, seeing that it has been created for consumption. If people didn't want to make it, it wouldn't exist, and if people didn't want to watch then it wouldn't exist.

    As for the situation that some people seem to have issues with, everyone's sexuality is different, and I don't feel that anyone has the right to judge based on their own. Within the porn industry these women and men know what they are setting themselves up for when they sign up to do a film, and if they don't want to do a particular thing then they don't have to.

    I think people need to get over the idea that there is a 'wrong' in sex, be it the taking part in activities or the watching of said activities through the medium of porn. Once it's safe, sane and consensual then I really don't see the issue. Just for the record, pornographic films don't really do it for me. I'd much prefer to use my imagination.


  • #434
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    No, for a lot of people the whole no sex before marriage, no masturbation thing is a very narrow view of sex and morality to have - some might even say in the minority. What's ridiculously defensive is feeling the need to evangelise that other peoples sex lives should involve and what is healthy or normal based on some kind of religious "sin of the flesh" ideal.

    It's a typical criticism to a view that challenges or disagrees with the behaviour of another.

    It's not about evangelism. XXXChurch actually is there to offer people who feel that they have a problem with pornography particularly Christians who are struggling with lust, and many people do, a chance to live a life free from pornography. I support them 100% in this endeavour, partly because I believe that pornography is harmful, and partly because I believe that many people do struggle with this irrespective of what you and others may think of it.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Pornography may or may not be within the boundaries of particular relationships, that's for the people within those relationships to decipher. Many couples openly and freely use pornography and have no issue with it. We are all grown adults, free to make choices and decisions for ourselves.

    If one person profoundly affects the other party in the marriage, then what I would say is that it is profoundly immoral to engage with it without consulting your partner. I think it's profoundly immoral anyway, but this is where it gets to be the most problematic.

    We can make decisions alright, but if those decisions prove to be problematic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with XXXChurch offering help.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You could argue that about anything, personally I think religion is a harmful influence that everybody should abstain from but meh, some people just can't help themselves.

    May the best man win.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You could say that the profits of most organisations could be better spent, religious orders included, it's entirely subjective. Some people think it's money well spent and again, as adults watching adults, it's for us to decide what is within the limits and boundaries of acceptability.

    I'm not going to have
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You have to wonder how much experience some posters on here have of A) relationships and B) porn with some of the stuff coming being said. :eek::confused:

    Another overly defensive argument. It's an ad-hominem fallacy too! Many people are in marriages without having to have porn as the third partner if you will.


  • #435
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    krudler wrote: »
    woah woah woah, so anyone on here who's watched porn with a partner (me included) has some huge relationship issues? now you are getting personal, me and my girlfriend are very much in love, I would never,ever cheat on her or do anything to hurt her feelings, like I said it was HER idea we watch porn together as a bit of a thrill, and thats all it is. We have a great sex life without porn and use it very occasionally to spice things up, the same way people use lingerie or sex toys or whatever.
    And why is it always the husband who gets blamed in these things? what if a woman prefered a vibrator over her husbands affections if he wasnt doing it for her in the sack? should everyone be calling for sex toys to be banned? Why is it seen as ok for a woman to be able to enchance her sexual pleasure with a vibrator but not for a man to do it with porn?
    And why is it always the husband who gets blamed in these things?i used the husband as an eg, but it is possible for women too to be addicted.


    what if a woman prefered a vibrator over her husbands affections if he wasnt doing it for her in the sack? i am not encourgaing this at all, this is why i binned my vibrator i said that earlier on in this topic. There is no intimacy in a vibrator and no comparison with the real thing and shouldn't be used while in a relationship. If it is a very long distance one for instance i can see why it could be a substitute temporarily alright.



    should everyone be calling for sex toys to be banned? no of course not this is some ones choice and it not hurting/degrading a phyisical women like porn stars are.
    Why is it seen as ok for a woman to be able to enchance her sexual pleasure with a vibrator but not for a man to do it with porn? i answered this above.


  • #436
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's a typical criticism to a view that challenges or disagrees with the behaviour of another.

    It's not about evangelism. XXXChurch actually is there to offer people who feel that they have a problem with pornography particularly Christians who are struggling with lust, and many people do, a chance to live a life free from pornography. I support them 100% in this endeavour, partly because I believe that pornography is harmful, and partly because I believe that many people do struggle with this irrespective of what you and others may think of it.



    If one person profoundly affects the other party in the marriage, then what I would say is that it is profoundly immoral to engage with it without consulting your partner. I think it's profoundly immoral anyway, but this is where it gets to be the most problematic.

    We can make decisions alright, but if those decisions prove to be problematic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with XXXChurch offering help.



    May the best man win.



    I'm not going to have



    Another overly defensive argument. It's an ad-hominem fallacy too! Many people are in marriages without having to have porn as the third partner if you will.
    1) I don't struggle with lust I openly embrace it. If you didn't embrace lust you would never be with anyone ever.
    2)Who are you to say whats moral and immoral?
    3)Comparing porn in marriage to a third party is laughable.


  • #437
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    1) I don't struggle with lust I openly embrace it. If you didn't embrace lust you would never be with anyone ever.
    2)Who are you to say whats moral and immoral?
    3)Comparing porn in marriage to a third party is laughable.

    1. People do struggle with it even if you claim you don't.

    2. I amn't the one defining it. If I were it would be a valid question.

    3. Well, if you are getting your sexual satisfaction from pornography instead of your wife or husband, it could be described as a third sexual partner. Albeit not a literal one, but it certainly could be regarded as infidelity or unfaithful.


  • #438
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    minidazzler wrote: »
    No, what makes it OK, is that she CHOSE to do it. Made a conscious decision. What is wrong iwth that?

    Are you against all these sorts of things? Fetish Clubs, Swingers? Because the women so obviously can't enjoy it. I mean when has a woman ever wanted to be a submissive?

    i dont know much about fetish club or swingers except from tv. would i join one? i think women start porn at 18 mostly (from interviews on the websites i listed already) and are pushed into things they don't want to do. most women in porn statisitics are on shellyluben.com seek male approval because they didnt have a father figure in their life.


  • #439
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    serenacat wrote: »
    And why is it always the husband who gets blamed in these things?i used the husband as an eg, but it is possible for women too to be addicted.


    what if a woman prefered a vibrator over her husbands affections if he wasnt doing it for her in the sack? i am not encourgaing this at all, this is why i binned my vibrator i said that earlier on in this topic. There is no intimacy in a vibrator and no comparison with the real thing and shouldn't be used while in a relationship. If it is a very long distance one for instance i can see why it could be a substitute temporarily alright.



    should everyone be calling for sex toys to be banned? no of course not this is some ones choice and it not hurting/degrading a phyisical women like porn stars are.
    Why is it seen as ok for a woman to be able to enchance her sexual pleasure with a vibrator but not for a man to do it with porn? i answered this above.

    Eh, what if a woman wants to use a vibrator with a partner? Jeez, if a man "wasn't doing it for me in the sack", I'd have no problem masturbating in front of him or using a vibrator.
    Sex isn't completely about intimacy, sometimes it is just about having an orgasm and vibrators aren't always about just having an orgasm, sometimes they are about intimacy, ie showing your partner how you like it etc.


  • #440
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    serenacat wrote: »
    i dont know much about fetish club or swingers except from tv. would i join one? i think women start porn at 18 mostly (from interviews on the websites i listed already) and are pushed into things they don't want to do. most women in porn statisitics are on shellyluben.com seek male approval because they didnt have a father figure in their life.

    Oh, here we go, another 'daddy issues' debate :rolleyes:


  • #441
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. People do struggle with it even if you claim you don't.

    2. I amn't the one defining it. If I were it would be a valid question.

    3. Well, if you are getting your sexual satisfaction from pornography instead of your wife or husband, it could be described as a third sexual partner. Albeit not a literal one, but it certainly could be regarded as infidelity or unfaithful.


    Jakkass, your religion tells you that masturbation is a sin. Do you believe that?

    P.


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  • #442
    serenacat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭serenacat


    Novella wrote: »
    Eh, what if a woman wants to use a vibrator with a partner? Jeez, if a man "wasn't doing it for me in the sack", I'd have no problem masturbating in front of him or using a vibrator.
    Sex isn't completely about intimacy, sometimes it is just about having an orgasm and vibrators aren't always about just having an orgasm, sometimes they are about intimacy, ie showing your partner how you like it etc.
    you can't have real intimacy with an object and sex is always about intimacy you can't have sex without intimacy.


  • #443
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Novella wrote: »
    Oh, here we go, another 'daddy issues' debate :rolleyes:

    Yeah; my wife has commented that I remind her of her father (scattered-brained, bookish, short) - guess I'd better get a divorce based on the knowledge of Serenacat the relationship expert here.

    (Actually, I do know a relationship councillor and she would alternatively laughing and shouting at some of the rubbish that Serenacat is talking.)

    P.


  • #444
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    serenacat wrote: »
    you can't have real intimacy with an object and sex is always about intimacy you can't have sex without intimacy.

    That's laughable. Have a one night stand.


  • #445
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Well, since from your posts elsewhere that you are a fundamentalist or least a very a devout Christian, of course you're against porn; you couldn't be otherwise. To you, an invisible omnipotent multi-dimensional being gets upset if I stroke my penis so that white liquid comes out.

    Masturbation isn't the problem. It's lust, the sexual objectification, treating someone else as a sex object rather than a human being that I would regard as the issue.

    I'm not going to apologise for my belief in Jesus Christ here. How would you define fundamentalist, just curious? This is a bit inappropriate for the discussion we are having, and it's actually a personal attack.
    oceanclub wrote: »
    It's a bit rich for you to pretend you're objective on the "problem" of porn.

    I'm not pretending about anything.


  • #446
    DancingDaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭DancingDaisy


    serenacat wrote: »
    i dont know much about fetish club or swingers except from tv. would i join one? i think women start porn at 18 mostly (from interviews on the websites i listed already) and are pushed into things they don't want to do. most women in porn statisitics are on shellyluben.com seek male approval because they didnt have a father figure in their life.

    Fetish clubs and such have nothing to do with porn necessarily, other than the fact that some porn is based on certain fetishes. Women who are into fetish clubs and such are the same as everyone else. Father figure's really don't come into it, and certainly don't use their fetish to seek male approval. It's a completely separate issue.


  • #447
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Jakkass, your religion tells you that masturbation is a sin. Do you believe that?

    P.

    It also states that a woman cant wear mens clothing for fear of going to hell, but most of the crazier stuff is ignored by your average christian;)


  • #448
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Jakkass wrote: »
    1. People do struggle with it even if you claim you don't.

    2. I amn't the one defining it. If I were it would be a valid question.

    3. Well, if you are getting your sexual satisfaction from pornography instead of your wife or husband, it could be described as a third sexual partner. Albeit not a literal one, but it certainly could be regarded as infidelity or unfaithful.
    1.)No kids in america are thought abstinance. Of course then they are going to struggle with something they are told is wrong and dirty.
    2.) You (am) are defining it, at least by your religious point of views.
    I for one know that killing somebody is wrong and would not do it.
    I would not kill somebody for not believing in my "god" as all life is sacred right and only "god" can choose who lives and dies.
    3.)Is it so hard for you to realise that couples whoi watch porn are sexually satisfied even though they watch porn?
    serenacat wrote: »
    i dont know much about fetish club or swingers except from tv. would i join one? i think women start porn at 18 mostly (from interviews on the websites i listed already) and are pushed into things they don't want to do. most women in porn statisitics are on shellyluben.com seek male approval because they didnt have a father figure in their life.
    If this was the case any girl without a father would be in porn.


  • #449
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    serenacat wrote: »
    you can't have real intimacy with an object and sex is always about intimacy you can't have sex without intimacy.

    Bull****, sex is sex, sometimes you just want a release, I've only ever had one one night stand and thats all it was for, hadnt been with anyone for a while, the oppurtunity came along, i went with it, I prefer being in a relationship but at the time all I wanted was sex, as did the girl I was with, but hey, at least i didnt use porn to masturbate to right;)


  • #450
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    serenacat wrote: »
    you can't have real intimacy with an object and sex is always about intimacy you can't have sex without intimacy.
    .......wow......


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  • #451
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Masturbation isn't the problem. It's lust, the sexual objectification, treating someone else as a sex object rather than a human being that I would regard as the issue.

    I'm not going to apologise for my belief in Jesus Christ here. How would you define fundamentalist, just curious? This is a bit inappropriate for the discussion we are having, and it's actually a personal attack.

    I'm not pretending about anything.

    I'm sorry, it's not a personal attack at all. Feel free to believe in anything you want without apologising for it.

    But you cannot pretend to be a disinterested observer who has weighed up the pros and cons of porn and, decided on the whole that it has more negative sides than positives sides, when you are an adherent of a faith that says masturbation and therefore porn is wrong full stop.

    It would be a bit like a fundamentalist Muslim coming to a debate about the health benefits of moderate alcohol use and railing against its use, without actually admitting that even if it was proved that drinking every day led you to live 10 years longer, they still could not admit that.

    P.


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